TCD: Dr. Lorraine Mazerolle, Ep 78, University of Queensland, Australia

Lorraine Mazerolle is an Australian Research Council Laureate Fellow (2010–2015), a Professorial Research Fellow at The University of Queensland, School of Social Science, and a Chief Investigator with the ARC Centre of Excellence for Children and Families over the Life Course. Her research interests are in experimental criminology, policing, drug law enforcement, regulatory crime control, and crime prevention. 

Professor Mazerolle is a Criminologist at the University of Queensland, Australia. She is an active member and award winner with the American Society of Criminology, and a member of the Center for Evidence-Based Crime Policy at George Mason University.

Her research interests include  Experimental Criminology, Policing, especially Third-Party Policing, Problem-Oriented Policing,  Crime Control/Crime Prevention, Crime, Analysis/Environmental Criminology, Community Regulation/Community Capacity Building,  Ecology of Crime and Urban Criminological Theories. 

Lorraine earned a Bachelor of Arts from Flinders University, a Master of Arts and a  Doctor of Philosophy from Rutgers University.

 We talked about the value of university researchers working in concert with police agencies, the changing climate for policing, worldwide, and the value of Evidence-based Policing. 

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

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[00:00:02.830] - Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now, please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:00:31.830] - Steve Morreale

Today we have the benefit of speaking to somebody on the entire other end of the world, our world down under. Lorraine Mazerolle. Dr. Lorraine Mazerolle from the University of Queensland is with us today. Today it's morning, their evening here. Good morning to you, Lorraine.

[00:00:46.800] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Well, good morning. So I have a coffee and you have a glass of wine?

[00:00:50.930] - Steve Morreale

No, I'm doing tea with honey because I'm a little under the weather. As I had said, pardon my nasally sound. I have been fighting a sinus infection. One of the things I wanted to ask you is to tell us about yourself. I know that you came to the United States for some education. You earned your doctorate over here, so I hope it'll be very interesting to the listeners to hear your perspective from both sides of the world. But tell us about how you got involved in criminology in the first place.

[00:01:14.940] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I actually wanted to be a criminologist when I was 14 years old, and that was a long time ago because I'm 58 now. That's a very long time ago. And the school counselor said, well, the only way that you can become a criminologist is becoming a police officer. So back in those days, the day after your 17th birthday, you could go off to the recruitment office, which I did, and I dragged my girlfriend along with me and said, come on, we're going to join the police. And I was super fit at the time. I was a triathlete and did a lot of sport, so I was very keen to do the obstacle courses and all the running and everything else. That was what was really appealing to me. And so that was my goal. And unfortunately, I was five foot three and three quarters, and at the time it had a five-foot four height restrictions. So I was unceremoniously dumped out of the recruitment office and thought that my life as a criminologist was over. So then I ended up going to university and did an economics degree. And through doing an economics degree, I took a subject on sociology of deviance and then found my way into criminology, but through the research side of things.

[00:02:24.780] - Lorraine Mazerolle

And then I ended up working for the South Australian Police, which was where I lived at the time, and the police commissioner, it was a police department of about 8000 officers, so it's a very large police department. And I ended up writing features for the police commissioner. And he said, if you want to become a police officer, Lorraine, we will relax the height restriction or you can stretch and be five foot four. But at that stage, it was too late. So I ended up spending the rest of my life as a policing academic and not as a sworn officer.

[00:02:55.310] - Steve Morreale

That's okay. And look at you now at the internationally renowned Mazerolle. Here are a couple of things. I have not been down under, and I'm not happy about that, I must say. But I'm curious to know, in Australia, how many police agencies are there?

[00:03:09.280] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So there's only eight police agencies, including the federal police. And they're very large jurisdictions. They're state jurisdictions, so it's all state policing. Australia is a very, very large country. The geographic red of the departments is enormous. And so we have here in Queensland, where I live, we have more than 150 sworn officers. So they're very large police departments with very diverse portfolios. And I actually put my backpack on my back when I was 25 years old, having worked with the amazing police scholars at the time. David Bayley had come out to Australia as a visiting scholar, and also Ron Clarke who both of them became amazing mentors for me. And I ended up choosing to go to Rutgers, mainly because at the time, Professor David Weisburd was actually not a professor at that time. He was an assistant professor, had a big trial on policing drug market. And so he invited me over there to work on that project. And that was right at the height of the crack cocaine epidemic. It was a fascinating project. And really, I owe everything to David Weisburd, David Bailey, who now passed away, giving me some amazing experiences, come to the United States and study and learn everything about policing research that has carried me forward.

[00:04:35.400] - Steve Morreale

Well, it's interesting because right about the time that you would have been there, I was a DEA agent on 970 Broad Street in Newark, New Jersey. Not too far.

[00:04:42.310] - Lorraine Mazerolle

You might have been working with us because we actually have a DEA as part of establishing the search time for people to buy drugs on street corners. And my research assistant at that stage was Anthony Braga.

[00:04:57.250] - Steve Morreale

Anthony, I've known him for a long time. I know. Well, the thing is, it really is a small world when you begin to talk and talk names. Do you know this one, do you know that one? And of course, it's so small, you do run across people who you know David Bayley was pretty special coming out of New York, among other places. And Weisburd, he's still very active, isn't he?

[00:05:15.450] - Lorraine Mazerolle

That's right. And Larry Sherman had a site in Kansas City as part of that drug market analysis program which was funded by the National Institute of justice. And John Eck actually had a site out in San Diego. So it was a multi-site study to look at what the police could do better in terms of dealing with the street-level drug problem at the time.

[00:05:36.610] - Steve Morreale

Yeah, well, it hasn't necessarily gone away. Unfortunately, so talk about the University. So you are at the University of Queensland, a full professor like myself, which means you have kind of gone through the grind and written and competed and put your portfolio in and be considered. But how big is your program? And do tell us about that. And I saw a number of interviews that you were in talking about your program or the program you work at. Talk about that a little bit.

[00:06:00.700] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So the University of Queensland is what we call a sandstone university here in Australia. It's in the top 50 institutions in the world. So it's a beautiful campus right on the Brisbane River. It actually has a relatively small Criminology program that's embedded within a school of social science. And the program that I'm involved in is the Criminology and Criminal Justice Program. And we have a really diverse research portfolio as well. So my main areas and the areas that I'm directing really two fold. One is I've had a long-term interest in policing partnership. So that's looking at the way that police engage with other entities to bring about a better crime prevention outcome. And we've looked at partnerships in the context of responding to terrorism problems, responding to drug problems, responding to treatment level disorder problems. And most recently, we've been working a lot with the Department of Education to see how police and schools can partner together to reduce currency and reengage young people that are really off the rails into a more learning environment that actually can reduce their delinquency behavior. So that's been my most recent area of looking at these partnerships and what can be gained by the police working with other entities.

[00:07:25.230] - Steve Morreale

So I presume you have an undergraduate and a graduate program.

[00:07:27.910] - Lorraine Mazerolle

We have an undergraduate and a PhD program. That's correct. In Australia, it's a little bit different. It's based on the English model. So our students actually don't do any coursework as part of their PhD, which in my view, is actually not a good thing. I prefer the American model of them having course work.

[00:07:45.310] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Yes, I understand. I spent some time in Ireland, and they kept trying to say, Come on back. I've already got one. Thank you. I don't need another one. I understand. So, ironically, at 06:00, I just finished, and we released a person. I had a zoom call for a dissertation defense. So we welcomed somebody to the clan. It was a long time coming, I must say. But anyway, that's behind us.

[00:08:05.820] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I actually had a police officer who was my student when I was a professor in Boston at Northeastern University. And I had a student who was a serving police officer from the Massachusetts police, and he took 19 years to do his PhD.

[00:08:23.410] - Steve Morreale

I know you used to have to get, I'm sure, a whole bunch of keys, please. I've seen that happen, but it's amazing when people have to stick to it for that. And I understand it takes an awfully long time. I didn't realize you were at Northeastern, so you know Boston too, which is great. You have been very active in the industry, American Society of Criminology and Academy of Social Sciences in Australia. What's keeping you busy now? What are you doing? What are you working on? You really are very strong and interested in evidence-based policing, clearly.

[00:08:52.850] - Lorraine Mazerolle

That really is a real passion of mine. And I received quite a bit of money from the Australian Research Council about ten years ago. And part of that money I allocated to build what's called the Global Policing Database. And this has been a massive undertaking. It's an international library of all the evaluation evidence around anything to do with policing. And it's using what we call systematic and review technique to green and go through every single bit of documentation to build a comprehensive database of the evidence around what works in any aspect of policing. So what works in staff training, what works in terms of technology, what works in terms of shift rostering, what works in terms of lights and sirens, what works in terms of health and safety, organizational change, and then, of course, all of the different types of interventions that the police use to deal with crime problems. So this is called the Global Policing Database? We're pretty excited about it because after ten years, we have gone all the way back to 1950 to look at every single piece of policing documentation. So using our search techniques, we've got over 300,000 records, unique record that we've identified and screening them, or whether or not they're in an evaluation, whether they meet the criteria of a sound scientific methods to evaluate the intervention.

[00:10:27.030] - Lorraine Mazerolle

And what we're doing at the moment is reforming the website so that we can go out to police agencies across North America, the UK, across Asia, across Australasia, South America, to have police agencies subscribe to the Global Policing Database for a very nominal fee so that they can access this amazing resource. And we think that that's important because getting it into the hands of police is the evidence into the hands of police so that they actually know what might be a better way of doing things and what they're currently doing.

[00:11:02.820] - Steve Morreale

So let me be direct with you about EBP, and certainly it's taking a second life. There's a lot of attention Canada, United States as society at this point in time, and I've been involved with George Mason here and there. But when you just listed the number of documents that are out there that may pass muster to show evidence, where are the RQS coming from, do you think? You said something a little bit ago, staffing so how do we know it works? And how do we know that one way is the only one that might work?

[00:11:30.900] - Lorraine Mazerolle

This is the issue with what we've done, really, because what we know is that there's amazing data out there, evaluations that are not found in the policing journals. They're not found in Criminology journals. Often. Oftentimes they're found in psychology or they're found in health journals where people have looked at shift rostering, for example, health and safety issues. It might be in business journals. So we've cast a very wide net is like a systematic review on steroids. The average number of search sites for a Campbell Collaboration systematic review is 22 different search sites. And the global policing database has accessed over 88 different search sites. For us to generate this comprehensive Global Policing Database of the evidence. And it's been a huge undertaking. We've had some support from the UK College of Policing, from the Australian Institute of Criminology, from the Australian Research Council to really build this evidence base.

[00:12:31.560] - Steve Morreale

That's great. And let me ask, this is your baby at this point in time. In other words, you took it from inception to where it is now and probably to the future where you would like it to be. So I am a police officer who is in a research and planning section and I have access to this. What can I do with that?

[00:12:49.830] - Lorraine Mazerolle

What we're doing is we're translating the findings into plain language.

[00:12:55.370] - Steve Morreale

That's a lot of work.

[00:12:57.470] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So people don't have to go through all the tables and the statistics and everything else, which people just glaze over. So we're translating it into plain language where people can read and say, okay, so we know that this study that was conducted, let's say it was conducted in Germany, and the German context is completely different, for example, to the American context, or it's different to the Australian context. So it doesn't answer the question of you can never take something that might have worked in Germany and translated directly into the American model, for example. But what it does is it provides you with some access to some ideas that you might not have thought about. It gives you access to who actually has conducted this study, and please love to get in contact with others from other jurisdictions to get more information. And so it's building that network of best practice and really from a very broad net. We're also doing some coding of all of the studies. So if someone wanted to type in shift rosters and what works in terms of shift rosters, for example, that's something that we're actually coding. So we're coding it so that people can do very quick searches to find out questions that they might have.

[00:14:14.170] - Lorraine Mazerolle

And this is where the police are to gain control of posing, you asked the question about their own research questions and please have lots of questions, but sometimes they don't know where to go to answer those questions or where's the starting point. So the global policing database is never going to be a substitute for police doing their own testing in their own jurisdiction and taking what might work in another jurisdiction and testing it in their own environment is never going to be a substitute for that. But what it does is it provides that unity of people for the place to go to. It provides some ideas of what the police might be able to do, solve very local problems.

[00:14:56.410] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So in looking at your website at the University of Queensland, by the way, we're talking to Lorraine Mazerolle. Lorraine Mazerolle. From University of Queensland. She is a professor. And it seemed to me, some of the things I saw, that there seemed to be a number of women who are students there. What's the ratio between men and women on your campus, would you say, or in your program even?

[00:15:15.620] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Well, in our undergraduate program, we have about 80% of our program as women.

[00:15:21.220] - Speaker 2

Yeah, that became obvious by pictures. And I thought, wow, that is so unusual. I'd say we're at 50 50 at my university.

[00:15:28.070] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I think that the attraction of women to the University Queensland Criminology program is probably because it's embedded within a school of social science. So I think that when you have a standalone criminology and criminal justice program, it might attract people from men as well as women. But I think that the female attraction is because we're in a school with anthropology, with sociology, and with archeology, which has a very sociology in particular, has a high portion of female students. So I think that's really the reason why, because it is in a broader social science school.

[00:16:09.330] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So how important was your experience in the United States to help you? I don't even have to ask the question.

[00:16:16.280] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Transformative. It shaped everything about what I've done with my entire career. I can't even start to list everything. So one of the reasons why I left Australia at the time was because I wanted to produce research on policing and not be a consumer of research that has been done elsewhere. And the idea of producing my own research at the time, I didn't have any confidence actually in the Australian PhD program. And to be very frank, I still prefer the American model.

[00:16:52.210] - Steve Morreale

Can I ask about that? Can I ask about that? Because I understand your experience. And my experience is lots of course work, lots of research assistant opportunities while you're in it. And at the end of the rainbow, all right, select a project and let's get going. And you're going to work under a mentor. That's the experience I presume you had and I had not. So in Australia, so it's not and.

[00:17:12.420] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I think that one of the real deficits of the Australian model is that I have had outstanding exposure to research methods, to statistics, to law, to understanding Criminology theory and how theory really underpins everything that you do. And that was all through really good coursework. I mean, I have to say that the coursework that I experienced at Rutgers at the time, in the early 1990s, I didn't really appreciate it as much at the time, but certainly do now, is that it gave me a goal that I would not have had had I done my PhD in Australia. But it was more than that. It was the opportunity to do real field research. And that field research was very hard in the 1990s. I mean, here I was, a newbie from Australia, landing in the middle of the crack cocaine epidemic in New Jersey and doing the research in Jersey City at the time. And I'd never seen anything like that before in my life. And it was very distressing, I have to say, when you're seeing people's lives absolutely torn apart, families torn apart, children that are just living in absolute dreadful conditions, it was very confronting as a 25 year old to do this.

[00:18:32.570] - Lorraine Mazerolle

There were times that I felt that being on the research side of things was a bit of a cop out. You're doing the research, but you're not actually making a difference. So, from a very young age, I really vowed and declared that if I was to stay in the research world, it had to have impact, that there had to be something out of every single piece of research that I did that actually fed into changing policy or practice. And if it didn't, then I really wasn't interested in the research. I just felt so strongly that doing research is a privilege. If you're doing it just to amuse yourself, then I just don't think you've got any business with that. I think unless it has some relevance to actually making change and making the world a better place, then that was my mission, and it still is.

[00:19:24.200] - Steve Morreale

I like what you're saying in terms of having an impact on policy and practice, not just writing for journal, but writing for utility. And in many cases, it's action research and aiming for social change. In some way, you're seeing something miss and trying to figure out what that is. And so I appreciate hearing that. I'm thinking of Jim Finckenauer, who was there at the time, too, and a colleague of mine, Patty Gavin, was at Rutgers for an awfully long time, and she's up here and teaches with us intermittently. So I want to ask a couple of questions about policing and the difference. You saw policing from the United States? It's been a few years, but yet, you know, it you lived here. I can't imagine what it was like when you first showed up in Newark. And, you know, all of the burnt-out buildings are still there. They have not been taken down. It's remnants of the riots. It was really mind boggling where we did a lot of buys in those burnt out buildings. It was horrible, horrible, horrible that an American city would look like that. But what are the differences between, in your estimation, between policing in Australia and policing in America?

[00:20:24.970] - Lorraine Mazerolle

So I'm not saying that Australia is all rainbows and kittens. There's some really serious problems that we have here around homelessness. We have serious problems around drug use and poverty. So I don't want to ignore those issues, but we don't have the violence. We don't have the gun problems. We don't have the deaths from gun violence. I think that policing is very well resourced here in this country and has been for decades. There's not the defund policing movement here that you're seeing in the United States, which is really challenging. Our training is much more standardized because you've only got such a huge number of police agencies, and because you've got such large police agencies, policy and the resources committed to training is really quite outstanding. And the conditions under which the police work is really well paid. They're well compensated, well respected. There's obviously problems here that the structure of American policing is very, very difficult to bring about broad-based transformations without compromising the autonomy of municipal policing model and the right to have the jurisdiction have responsibility for their own police. So it's not a really resolvable issue in the US. I think that there are lots of things that the US Can do. And I think the President's Task Force on 21st Century Policing is one of the most important documents and a lot of the work that's come out of that that's now being picked up by the Biden administration. But there's still real limit to how much can be changed in terms of the structure of police in the United States.

[00:22:19.150] - Steve Morreale

January 6, a day in infamy, unfortunately, in the United States. You would have had to be under a rock or in a tunnel to not see that. What was your feeling when you saw what was going on at the capital?

[00:22:32.670] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Absolute horror to see everything about America come under attack. And it was really quite shocking. I never thought I'd see that in America. It was an attack on democracy.

[00:22:47.170] - Steve Morreale

It was. And we're still seeing the residual effects of it here. Many arrests at this point in time, but I hope that it doesn't happen again. But I didn't expect it to happen. What about 911?

[00:22:57.470] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Well, and again, you never really expect that kind of tragedy to happen in America either. And then it did. And it was right after I left. I left in 2000 to come back to Australia. And by the way, one of the reasons why we came back to Australia was because of the school shootings. And we had two young children at the time, and the idea of school shootings absolutely terrified me. And it was one of the factors that it was after Columbine and the patterns were starting. And now it frightens me right to my core to see these shootings happening in schools.

[00:23:40.690] - Steve Morreale

Well, and then I guess the other major event that happened most recently was Uvalde, and 20 or so, 19 or so teachers and students that were killed, grade school students, and the apparent missteps of police who were responding and the time lapse and all of those kinds of things, all of it is under consideration now. This is interesting, I think, because one of the things the military does here, I have to say once in a while, Lorraine, one of the things I really do look to Australia, and I send my students to Australia for written pieces from the army leadership, things from some of the academies, police colleges and academies down there, because I think you do great work. What I was going to say is - How are you handling terrorism? Is it a serious threat?

[00:24:24.200] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I think that the biggest threat for us at the moment is cyber-attack. That's really very difficult to manage. We're an island, but it doesn't mean that we're not at risk of terrorism. And we have had terrorism incidents here. But I think that there's a different history and a different position in the world that Australia occupies relative to the United States, which is in some ways a protective factor for Australia.

[00:24:53.030] - Steve Morreale

Well, we've talked about terrorism and cyber-attacks, but one of the things that I wrote down here was the role, the receptivity is, of policing for academic input. Is it hard?

[00:25:04.450] - Lorraine Mazerolle

That waxes and wanes over time, and I think that's just a natural evolution of police agencies. So when I came to Australia, the Queensland police literally had never really worked with academics ever before. And when I proposed to work with the Queensland Police, there was a round of laughter from the interview panel saying that it's never been done, it will never happen. So that was a bit of a throwing down the gauntlet kind of thing. I proceeded to talk to senior police in the agency and work out what were some of the questions that they actually were interested in answering, because I think it gets at that point that you were making before, when the police are asking the questions, if an academic is able to listen, what is the question that they're actually really interested in?

[00:25:54.060] - Steve Morreale

You dig into what you're trying to get at, right?

[00:25:56.650] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Yeah, that's right. Look, I have to say that I worked very well with the police and built trust and build a rapport with police. Then we spent probably the next 20 years in a very positive relationship of very expanded police agenda, very real source, and then Covid hit.

[00:26:14.680] - Steve Morreale

Yes.

[00:26:15.120] - Lorraine Mazerolle

And I can say that Covid has completely set back policing field research. I cannot get a project off the ground since Covid. Not a field project. I can do other projects, but not an active field project. I've been able to get off the ground since Covid.

[00:26:31.820] - Steve Morreale

What about looking at that? The changes to the adaptability of police agencies, the involvement of them in a public health crisis, in some cases being asked to enforce not law, but policy, which causes problems unto itself. But have we not learned some of the things in policing or in academia, in using Zoom? We really did come a long way.

[00:26:53.190] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Well, we did and we didn't.

[00:26:55.190] - Steve Morreale

Well, not on the policing side, I understand, but in terms of understanding that we could utilize technology at times to our benefit. So are you back on track?

[00:27:04.640] - Lorraine Mazerolle

No, absolutely not. I think that the Covid crisis has challenged the police in terms of expanding their role in many areas. So policing mental health problems, policing domestic violence problems have gone through the roof and that's been extremely challenging. But what it's meant in terms of policing, at least here in Australia, is that the capacity to try on new things, the capacity to engage in active research, the capacity to think beyond the next crisis has really been very difficult. And so, no, it's not back on track and I think it's going to take several years. And people are sick. I don't know what the situation is there, but the level of sickness of people getting sick, people, they had no leave. I mean, Queensland police officers, during the COVID crisis, there was police that didn't take leave for over a year. They were policing borders, they were doing all kinds of policing roles that they just didn't do before. And so now going back and taking that lease is going to take another few years to dig themselves out of what has been a very challenging time and sustained time.

[00:28:22.020] - Steve Morreale

We're running out of time, as you had told me. We're talking to Dr. Lorraine Mazerolle at the University of Queensland. And to end, I'd like to ask you a question if you had a chance, Lorraine, to talk with somebody who has since passed to pick their brains, who might that be? Would you like to sit and chat with?

[00:28:37.330] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Well, I miss David Bayley. I used to go from my place in Newark up to his place just south of Albany, and him and his beautiful wife Chris treated me like their third daughter. They've got two other daughters and I used to go up there for Easter and Summers and Thanksgiving and Christmas and sit around and talk with David and walk go for long walks and I miss him every day.

[00:29:04.300] - Steve Morreale

That's great, that's a great memory. But that's also a great experience that you had. So, Lorraine, you have the last word, policing. Is it something that you recommend to people who want to help?

[00:29:14.970] - Lorraine Mazerolle

I can't imagine anyone not wanting to do policing and policing research. I think it's the most fascinating area. I think the police can really make a difference in people's lives and they can really bring about change in communities and policing done well can make a real difference and can transform life. Young people's lives can be put back on track and I think that there's so much goodwill and so much for us yet to learn and I think it's a fantastic area of study and a. fantastic career.

[00:29:51.080] - Steve Morreale

Great. So I appreciate you taking the time very much and that we were able to connect. So can't thank you enough. Nice to meet you.

[00:29:59.230] - Lorraine Mazerolle

And you've got a great radio voice, so I can see why you've been attracted to this podcast.

[00:30:07.470] - Steve Morreale

Well, the crazy part I'll leave you with this. The crazy part is my first two years in school were for radio and television. It was quite a circle to come back in that way. So I do appreciate it. And that's it. That's The CopDoc podcast.

[00:30:18.330] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Thank you very much for including me.

[00:30:20.270] - Steve Morreale

Yeah, thanks so much. Have a good night. Take care.

[00:30:22.760] - Lorraine Mazerolle

Okay, bye bye.

[00:30:26.210] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.