TCD Podcast: Dr. Kathy O'Toole, Ep75, former Boston Police Commissioner and former Seattle Police Chief, Part 2

In part 2 of our chat, we continue our chat with Kathy O'Toole. 
We talk about women In law enforcement, the importance of academic relationships with police agencies and the differences between policing in the US and Europe. 

Kathy O'Toole is an international police leader.  Starting as a patrol officer with the Boston Police Department, she rose through the ranks.     Kathy left the Boston Police for the now-defunct Metropolitan Police.  When the Mets were subsumed by the Massachusetts State Police, she became a Lieutenant Colonel. Kathy was tapped by Governor William Weld as the Secretary of Public Safety  She served as the Commissioner of the Boston Police from 2004 to 2006.

She later served as Chief with the Seattle Police.   

She served on the Patten Commission in Northern Ireland, which worked to reform the Royal Ulster Constabulary, creating PSNI, Police Service of Northern Ireland.  
Later, she was appointed the first Chief Inspector for the Garda Inspectorate in the Republic of Ireland.   

Kathy has retired and continues to provide consulting services to public and private organizations, including serving as a principal for 21 CP Solutions. 

A graduate of Boston College, she earned her J.D. from the New England School of Law.  Dr. O'Toole earned her Ph.D. from Trinity University of Dublin.  She resides on Cape Cod with her husband, a retired Boston Police Detective.   

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

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Dr. Kathy O’Toole – Part 2

[00:00:52.690] - Intro

Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia, and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:01:35.970] - Steve Morreale

Well, you know, sometimes I think and this is very uncomfortable for so many police officers that don't yet understand in my mind that if you're going to reach out to a community for the first time in a long time, you have to allow them to vent. They have a lot in their mind. They're going to be a little upset, they're going to be a little disappointed in what's happened in the past. And so to me, you need to channel that energy. Okay, I hear you. This is my own and a lot of the community work that I did. Okay. But I hear that you're looking for some things. I like one of the words you use, Kathy, leadership. Talked to the word leadership, but you talked about facilitating. That really when you're around the table, and you and I talked about decision making for organizations, a lot of what you were doing was asking questions and letting the group around you talk and have some input. And I know as a leader myself, at times, there are times you too, I'm sure you come in with an idea, this is what you want to do.

[00:02:22.760] - Steve Morreale

You present it, and the more you let other you plant the seed, the more you let other people weigh in. Sometimes that plan you had originally is completely different from the input of others and it becomes stronger. In other words, you plant the seed, but the roots come from the rest around you. What's your reaction to that in terms of facilitating?

[00:02:42.160] - Kathy O'Toole

You're absolutely right. And again, I had a member of my command staff in Seattle, and he referred to me as an ideas fairy. I'd come in with some general idea, but then I had this phenomenal team. It's not about one person leading an organization, especially a large police organization. It's all about having a really cool, diverse team. When I say diversity, I not only mean the race and gender, but diversity of thought. I have people on my team. I had a former Boeing engineer. I had people who'd never worked in policing. By the time I left, my command staff was half sworn, half non-sworn among us. We had four JDS, four PhDs, and some incredibly smart and committed police leaders. And we worked cohesively common purpose. But we got out there. We are in the field all the time, engaging with cops and engaging with people living in our community. And that's what's so important, because you're right. Not only do you get new ideas when you're out there listening carefully, but you're able to develop on some of your own ideas that come to thought.

[00:03:42.210] - Steve Morreale

I think humility in some ways is really important for a leader in terms of realizing that you don't know it all, you don't have all the answers. And so many I put in quotes, leaders think they know it all. They're supposed to know it all, and they don't utilize the people around them. I think they underutilize them. And so what would your message be to a new chief from a big or small department in terms of how do you approach how do you walk into this new place? What's the first thing you do? You talk about listening, for sure.

[00:04:10.790] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, again, I think it goes to the organizational culture, and I think in policing, for many years, our organizations were built on military models, and you need discipline, you need structure, but they're very autocratic. We took our orders from the top down.

[00:04:24.990] - Steve Morreale

Remember those old meetings? Remember the old meetings? They were operational. You're going to do this and this. Any questions? And don't you dare ask a question. Right, but it's different now.

[00:04:34.600] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, well, and it should be different because we understand. And again, I said before, people say to me, are you an autocratic manager? Are you a Democratic manager? I say, I'm a situational leader. So if I have to make a split second decision in an operational situation, I can do it. I can be decisive. And thankfully, I feel I've been well trained over the years to do that. But my default position is to be a Democratic leader and manager and to delegate as much authority as possible. I loved working for people like Bill Bratton and Bill Weld, who said, Here, take the ball and run with it.

[00:05:06.480] - Steve Morreale

Doesn't that mystify you? Sometimes I work for a boss who did sort of the same thing. Probably what was my best boss is like, this is what I want you to do. I want you to do that. And that was it. Go see what you could do over there with any other direction. That's it. No, I trust you. Go and do it.

[00:05:19.140] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, it's fantastic, and I know how much I appreciated that. And then, by the way, if I needed help, they were always there to have my back, to help me out and to provide guidance. But I love working in an environment like that. So I tried to model that as I became a leader, and I wasn't afraid to delegate authority to people. I always tried to surround myself with really smart people that I knew I could trust. And that's just the way that I operate, and I learned a lot of that from my own mentors.

[00:05:45.510] - Steve Morreale

So how do you pass I'm sorry, but how do you pass that on? Now, Cathy, you are no longer active as a leader in policing. Would you go back or you're done?

[00:05:55.340] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, we'll never get this stuff out of our system.

[00:05:57.300] - Steve Morreale

I know,

[00:05:58.460] - Steve Morreale

It's great because I've dad the opportunity to stay involved and working in several jurisdictions now on police reform initiatives. And last week I was at the Major City Chiefs Meeting and the PERF meeting. And so I still get to engage with a lot of my former colleagues and get to meet the new people rising to the ranks. And as I said, I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I love being involved in the discussion. I love hearing about the challenges and helping to shape some of the dialogue and some of the solutions going forward. So I think that, again, I've been so fortunate to have the opportunities I have. I feel like a responsibility. Again, I don't have all the answers, but I feel a responsibility to continue to engage in the dialogue, because if I can bring a little bit about my own experience to the table that's helpful to someone else, then I think that's really important.

[00:06:46.810] - Steve Morreale

What are some of the things that you do at times and your colleagues around you to just to simply ask some questions? What about that? Have you thought about this? What's going on? In other words, how else will you dig to find out what they've got, what they're it's fascinating to me, I guess, now as an academic or a pro academic, that you just ask you simply asking questions and sometimes they look at you like, I never thought of it that way, but you're in charge of this place, but you're helping them think through things. Is that rewarding for you?

[00:07:12.790] - Kathy O'Toole

Oh, it's so important. And as I mentioned earlier, my mentors and my supporters. So I don't think there's anything more important than playing that role. And just as I've had people on speed dial when I've had to make really important decisions during my career, I'm humbled when people call me similarly, call me when they're facing a big challenge. Take my role as a mentor very, very seriously. Always want to be available to anyone who even just needs a trusted ear, trusted confidant when making a really tough decision or when trying to guide through a difficult period.

[00:08:23.150] - Steve Morreale

So Kathy O'Toole is still in the game, which is great. There's two things you haven't talked about, and your humility. It’s me that's going to pull this out of you. Your humility would not have put it forward, but at one point in time, somebody suggested you go back to school. Crazy fool. You have risen to the heights that many have not. And someone says you should come and do a doctorate with us at Trinity. Tell us that story.

[00:08:47.090] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, I have to say then my undergraduate, I graduated from Boston College with a degree in political science and always wanted to be a lawyer. But I graduated with a boatload of debt, so I didn't want to accumulate more student debt. So I decided to go to law school at night and I went to New England it was a wonderful experience. It took me four years, four years nights versus three years. It would have taken me during the day and during the day it was a great experience. But education then to me was always a means to an end. I was always working a couple of jobs while I was going to school. In fact, I was in the police academy in law school at the same time, so I never really had the opportunity to again, the education was a means to an end. So fast forward. I'm over in Ireland by this time I was in my early fifty s, I believe, and I decided that it was really important to establish stronger relationships with academic institutions. I noticed that they didn't seem to have as many of those relationships as we did in Boston or elsewhere in the US.

[00:09:42.140] - Kathy O'Toole

When I was in Boston, I always had academics sitting at my command table, helping us develop new strategies and also metrics and measuring our results. Those independent eyes and voices are really important. So I said, let's see if we can establish better relationships in Ireland. And I noticed that they were good at policing. I mean, they obviously had this great relationship with the community, but I thought some of the biggest weaknesses were in the areas of management and leadership, that they needed more robust management and leadership training. So through some mutual friends I met some people at the business school at Trinity, went in with the intention of establishing a stronger relationship to get them more involved in the work my organization was doing. And I walked out of there contemplating getting involved in the PH. D. Program, which I did. And it was just an incredible experience, really. I continue to serve on the advisory board of the business school at Trinity College, Dublin, and it was a remarkable experience and it gave me an opportunity to actually bridge theory and practice. And my daughter and I laugh about this now because she's in her 30s, in the process of getting her MBA, and we both agree that maybe education shouldn't be wasted on the young seem to appreciate it more as you grow older and . . .

[00:10:57.380] - Steve Morreale

Well, because you can apply, it so much easier. You have experience that you can apply.

[00:11:01.520] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, exactly. And you see that nexus between theory and practice. So it was a phenomenal experience. So I was talking to a woman yesterday who in the middle of raising a family and she's in her early forties and she said she never got back to complete her education. I said, Wait a minute, it's never too late, I can attest to that.

[00:11:22.260] - Steve Morreale

I know. And what was your dissertation on? What did you research?

[00:11:25.170] - Kathy O'Toole

Organizational change. Right. And I actually did an action research, applied the action research methodology and kind of cataloged all of our work in the Garda Inspector and how we drove change through that process and talked about the need for authenticity, that authentic engagement. I really emphasize that. And the need for nimble, flexible leadership. And I've talked a lot about organizational culture as well, and how the leader does shape the culture. And leaders should understand that that's their responsibility, to shape the culture of an organization. So it was a great experience, and I'll be forever thankful to those who helped steer me through at Trinity.

[00:12:04.620] - Steve Morreale

Well, we have Dr. O'Toole with us today. There's a couple more questions as we wind down. Oh, come on, you earned it. You've written a book.

[00:12:11.260] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah. People have said to me for years, oh, why don't you write a book? Well, I'm not into the whole memoir scene. People have far more interesting stories than I do. But I especially during this very challenging time and policing again, I feel I've learned some lessons along the way, particularly in places like Northern Ireland. That was such a divided place, it was such a divided society.

[00:12:34.570] - Steve Morreale

Well, it's not too far away from what's going on in the United States. We're divided here.

[00:12:39.320] - Kathy O'Toole

And that struck me. So I've actually co-authored a book with my dear friend Bob Pierce. Bob was the secretary to the Patent Commission in Northern Ireland. He worked in the British Foreign Service. He was Chris Pattens a secretary. And Chris Patten's administration in Hong Kong helped negotiate the deal in Hong Kong that would eventually evolve back to Chinese rule there. But Bob and Chris Patton were phenomenal to work with in Northern Ireland. And then Bob and I continued to be friends. He came back, he served as the Consulate General for the UK government, Los Angeles, and he married an American and achieved as American citizenship and self. So Bob and I have remained close friends. He worked with me on the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. So he came back to Ireland and played a similar role. He helped to develop that report. And then we said, gee, during these crazy times, maybe there are some lessons we've learned that would be helpful to others and maybe this is the right time to compile some of this information and put it in the form of a book. So we've done that not a long book.

[00:13:43.050] - Kathy O'Toole

I think it's going to be like 150 pages long. But it's The Seven Ways to Fix Policing Now. And we come up with some, I think, very practical examples of things that jurisdictions can do, whether large jurisdictions or small jurisdictions, things that police services can do to get on track and realize the true potential of their organization.

[00:14:03.850] - Steve Morreale

When will that be released?

[00:14:05.100] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, I understand it going to print this month.

[00:14:07.540] - Steve Morreale

Good, that's exciting.

[00:14:09.060] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, it's on Amazon already.

[00:14:10.710] - Steve Morreale

Is it really? Okay, well, I'll have to get one. You're going to have to make some money from me, you bum. So, listen, we need to wind down, but there's a few questions that linger for me being a woman in law enforcement. You know that there's a 30 x 30 initiative going on to try to raise the number of women in policing to 30% by 2030. I presume you're supportive, and if that's the case, why?

[00:14:32.110] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, I'm certainly supportive of that. Well, I think our police services need to reflect the communities they serve in every respect. We said this in Northern Ireland when we walked in there, the police service there was 94% representative, 92% to 94% representative of one community, and it wasn't trusted. So we need police services to represent the communities they serve. And that applies in Geneva, too. I think police services on the opposite side of the Atlantic have done a much better job of this. If you look at the London Met or police services elsewhere in the UK, even if you look at the garda she can't do now, they have more than double the amount of women that we have in our organization. Some of them are up to 30, 40% female. Right now in the US, we're somewhere between twelve and 14% average. And I just think that, again, I don't consider myself a diehard feminist. I think it should be a level playing field for everyone. And I think that we need to tell the story of policing better so that we'll attract a much more diverse group of people. And again, it's not just what we see on television, it's truly a service.

[00:15:34.750] - Kathy O'Toole

And how come the Garda Siochana are able to attract 30% to 40% women for every class? How come the police service of Northern Ireland is on such a remarkable job of increasing its diversity in every respect? So I think that our work is cut out for us here, but I think we need to start by more effectively telling the story of policing, what it really entails. And I think on this side of the Atlantic, we haven't done nearly as good as they have in Europe and the UK on opportunities for young families, for young parents to job share, or been much more innovative over there in terms of family leave and job sharing opportunities and things like that, to offer young people, young parents, the opportunity to engage in the police profession, but also dedicate the necessary time to their families.

[00:16:23.330] - Steve Morreale

So there are two reports that were done in the last ten years. One of them was 21st Century Policing, the report on the Future of Policing in America and the report that you and your team put together on the future of policing in Ireland. There are two distinct differences there, Kathy. We talked about this, I think, in our last phone call off the air, and that was in the United States. What that report has is aspirational. It is not required in any way, but in Ireland, where there's a singular agency, it's more than aspirational. In fact, they're moving through your report piece by piece by piece, since the American Report is only aspirational. How do we get to convince people who are running agencies that this is a darn good blueprint to improve your police department?

[00:17:08.790] - Kathy O'Toole

I would say do it now, before.

[00:17:10.860] - Steve Morreale

You before it's done to you. Before it's done to you.

[00:17:13.820] - Kathy O'Toole

Precisely, I see that's one example. People really want to get it right again. I think that's that commitment to innovation, the world is changing at such a fast pace, and the challenges we're facing and pleasing, none of us could have predicted, for instance, the cybercrimes that 20 years ago, we had no idea that that was on the horizon. We always need to be mindful of the next challenge. And I think that bracing this culture of innovation is so important. That's why I would take a framework that's worked elsewhere and based mostly on public consultation and also consulting people within your organization. The police chief should not dictate the agenda from the top down, should be a grassroots approach to this, because the people I've said this before, who know the challenges best and usually have the best answers to those challenges, are the people who are living, working out on the front lines. So I think that do it now rather than do it later. And by the way, policing, sadly, is a messy business, and we're dealing with people when they're most vulnerable. We're running into dangerous and complicated situations. We're human beings making split second decisions.

[00:18:17.300] - Kathy O'Toole

It's a tough business, but our communities are counting on us to get it right. So I think we need to work with them to come up with models that are unique to each one of our communities. But the general principles are all the same.

[00:18:30.310] - Steve Morreale

We're running long. We could talk for hours. And you know that we've said this in the past. I want to ask this. I think this is an important question for those who are listening. It's interesting because this podcast has certainly grown. I've got people listening from all over the world, especially from Ireland and Northern Ireland now. And we're very strong in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and in America. I just received an email from a young lady named Kelly, and she's in the Midwestern Police Department and said, I have been listening to you, came upon you inadvertently. I'm a sergeant, but I've been listening to the leadership things you and your guests have passed on. And I can tell you that it's been very helpful as I ran for a competitive job as a lieutenant. I am now a lieutenant. I promise you I will spread the word and keep listening, which is amazing. You understand that's good.

[00:19:15.820] - Steve Morreale

But what I want to ask you, Kathy, is from your perspective of running so many different agencies and now beginning to consult for so many different agencies, how important is the sergeant?

[00:19:25.930] - Kathy O'Toole

I say the most important person in the organization. The sergeants are the ones who are out there on the front lines, directing their personnel. We count on them. We give them huge amounts of responsibility, but we also need them to give them the tools to do their jobs effectively. We need to have the right policies and procedures to guide our officers, to guide our sergeants, but then we also need to give them effective training and education. And sadly, I think that some organizations don't invest in their front-line officers and in their sergeants to the extent that they should. But I can't imagine a more important role than sergeant. When I was a young beat cop, I never talked to Lieutenants or Captain's. Your go to person was your Sergeant.

[00:20:06.470] - Steve Morreale

He or she is the boss.

[00:20:07.820] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah. Your sergeant is the person you engage with day in and day out. And I think for some people, promoting to the rank of sergeant, it's a difficult transition because you're going from being one of the crew to now the boss of the crew, and you still want to have that camaraderie with your personnel, with your pals that you've worked side by side with, but now you need to hold them accountable. So I think that's why we really need to give our sergeants the support and the training and the education they need to succeed, because they're the ones who are really operating the business out there on a day to day basis. And I think they're the most important people in our organization when it comes to supervision and management.

[00:20:47.720] - Steve Morreale

And thank you. I appreciate you saying that, and I truly believe, sort of knew that would be your answer. I think it's really important for people to hear. So as we wind down a couple of things, what's on your to do list? What do you go in this summer and into the fall.

[00:21:02.210] - Kathy O'Toole

Like yourself, Steve, I'm still working seven days a week, but I love every minute of it. 

[00:21:05.450] - Steve Morreale

I know. We're talking to Kathy O'Toole. What I said to her is, when you're in charge, it's great you've got people to delegate to. And now when you're out and you're retired but you're still in demand, you're it. You're the talent, you're the writer, you're the person who has to show up no matter whether you're sick or not. So that must be what you're facing at this point.

[00:21:21.840] - Kathy O'Toole

Yeah, but, I mean, I love what I do, and I've had the opportunity. I do some of my own consulting. I do some private and public sector work. And I've also been working with a great group of people from 21st Century Policing Solution. My dear friend Chuck Ramsey, who served as police chief in Washington, DC. He was chair of the 21st Century Commission on Policing here in the US. And when he retired from Philadelphia, like myself, he said, hey, not done yet. Feel a responsibility to give back. So he established this business, and there are six of us now who are partners in that business, and we're working on lease reform initiatives in many major organizations across the country. And so it's wonderful because we're able to continue to learn, but we're also able to, in part, share some of the knowledge we've acquired over the course of all these years with others who are grappling with some huge challenges now.

[00:22:10.400] - Steve Morreale

What's on the tool bucket list? Where do you want to go? What do you want to do besides work?

[00:22:14.700] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, I love to travel, but I just haven't had a lot of time.

[00:22:17.660] - Steve Morreale

Well, Covid hasn't helped us, right.

[00:22:19.470] - Kathy O'Toole

And my daughter teases me a lot. She said the only time we ever went on family vacations is always stayed an extra day after some kind of cheap conference. So at some point I'd like to do a little bit more travel. I've had the opportunity to go to different corners of the world and my police work, and I just think that's such a valuable experience to get out and explore different cultures. But I'd also like to improve my golf handicap. I mean, I got it down to single digits at one point in my life, but I don't know if that's attainable anymore. I like to play more golf at some point, but I just love friends and family blessed with great friends and family. So that's my priority.

[00:22:52.070] - Kathy O'Toole

So the last question would be if you had a chance to talk with someone who is no longer around, who might that be? Whose brain would you like to pick that would be helpful to understand the world before us.

[00:23:04.650] - Kathy O'Toole

That's really interesting. I think of three people that come to mind right away, and they're all family members. My grandmother, who was right off the boat from Ireland, she was absolutely my hero. On one day's notice, she packed up a suitcase and left for America, which is to close on her back and never looked back, never got home. But just the incredible courage that that took to start her life all over again. And she was just exuded humility and warm and overcame so many challenges in her own life. So I always felt I could really count on her for really sound advice and guidance. And I still do because I often think, what would she do in this instance? And then I think my commitment to service came from two people. My uncle was a missionary priest and my dad was a teacher who absolutely loved going to school every day. He taught middle school and high school kids and always emphasized that it was much more important to love your work than to make the big bucks. So here I am. I have always kind of counted on the example I saw in all the lessons I learned from the three of them.

[00:24:08.000] - Kathy O'Toole

What county was your grandmother from?

[00:24:09.620] - Kathy O'Toole

County Roscommon.

[00:24:10.770] - Steve Morreale

You don't hear about that very much.

[00:24:12.360] - Kathy O'Toole

It was right near the Roscommon/Galway in the Midlands. Right near the Roscommon/Galway border. So, I still have hundreds of relatives in that area.

[00:24:19.690] - Steve Morreale

It's funny, when you go to Ireland, they want to know, what's your connection? When I first got there, I didn't know. What the hell are you talking about? It's my connection. I'm a Morreale. But as it turns out, my grandmother was a Delaney. There is a connection. And she ended up in Newfoundland in the potato famine. So there was a connection. And we are in the land of opportunity in the United States. As much as we talk about the immigration issues, we are a land of people that have come from all walks of life. So I thank you so much for your time and for your effort, for your energy are certainly an inspiration and you continue to give back. Kathy, I appreciate it so much. Thanks for being here.

[00:24:51.380] - Kathy O'Toole

Well, thank you, Steve and thanks for doing this very important podcast. It's great to I'm one of your biggest fans, so I'll continue to listen in myself and hopefully learn many more lessons.

[00:25:00.680] - Steve Morreale

I appreciate we've got plenty to learn from each other, so thank you very much. So that's it. Another episode in the can, as they say. Steve, The CopDoc Podcast coming to you from Boston, and we've had the delight of talking to Kathy O'Toole who's had a story history and is still involved in policing and she's down on the cape. Thanks very much. We ask you to listen to more episodes in the coming.

[00:25:21.800] - Steve Morreale

Hey everybody, a few things before you leave. First, thanks for listening. I'm so gratified to see the downloads rising in the last few months, not only from the US. But from across the globe. It's surprising and humbling to find students, colleagues and practitioners listening. They have a growing number of listeners in Canada, Ireland, England, Northern Ireland, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and Colombia. We appreciate your time and energy and welcome feedback. Please feel free to reach out to me by email the copdocpodcast@gmail.com. That's copdocpodcast@gmail.com.

[00:25:53.870] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.

[00:29:32.550] - Steve Morreale

Hi again, everybody. Steve Morreale from The CopDoc Podcast.  So please stay tuned. I am fighting a bit of a sinus infection, so excuse the nasally voice in the last few days, but more importantly, thank you for listening. Over the summer, I am backing off to releasing every two weeks and I hope you will understand it's time for a little bit of a break. So thank you. Thanks so much for listening.