From Police Officer to Pracademic: Dr. Jim O'Keefe's Journey in Policing, Academia, and Innovative Leadership

Season 5 - Episode 104  - The CopDoc Podcast
 
What if your experience as a police officer could uniquely inform your approach to teaching and leadership? Join our conversation with Dr. Jim O'Keefe, a professor at St. John's University and former Houston police officer, as we explore his journey as a pracademic and the lessons he's learned from working with innovative leaders like Bill  Bratton and Lee P. Brown. Discover how trust can be a powerful commodity in police forces, and how the future of policing is evolving with technology and collaboration between universities and academies.

We'll discuss Dr. O'Keefe's transition from the Houston Police Department to the New York City Transit Police and his decision to pursue a doctoral degree. Learn how his time in the Houston jail taught him the importance of communication, and what brought him back to New York with the NY Transit Police and later, as Director of Training for NYPD. We'll also delve into the challenges he faced transitioning from a police officer to a Ph.D. scholar, and how his unique background has influenced his approach to teaching.

Finally, we'll examine innovative ideas for improving police training and leadership, looking beyond the traditional command and control approach. Discover the role of organizations like the Police Executive Research Forum in developing new strategies and the value of having university professors share their knowledge in police academies. Don't miss this fascinating conversation on the intersection of policing, academia, leadership, and Dr. O'Keefe's unique perspective on these interconnected fields.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The cop doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopD oc Podcast.

Steve Morreale: 0:44

Hello again everybody. This is Steve Morreale, coming to you from Boston, Massachusetts. Welcome back to The CopD oc Podcast. Today we have the opportunity of traveling down to New Jersey, where Dr. Jim O'Keefe from St John's University is on the line and getting ready to chat with us. Jim is a professor at St John's University. He was a police officer in Houston. He also worked with Bill Bratton and the New York Transit Police and later with the New York City Police Department as a deputy commissioner, at one point being the commander of the New York Police Academy, training tens of thousands of police officers for the city of New York Police Department. How are you, Jim?

Jim O'Keefe: 1:29

Hello Steve. It's great to speak with you again.

Steve Morreale: 1:32

So I want to talk a little bit about everything policing and everything leadership. You are now an academic. You know that Jim O'Keefe and I talk about being a pracidemic. That's what you are. That's what we are. You went back and you earned a doctorate out of Sam Houston State University and you were a police officer in Houston. A few moments ago, we talked about what made you leave New York to go to Houston and then back to New York. So tell us about your history, okay.

Jim O'Keefe: 1:57

I guess my history is a little bit unusual. In July 1981, I moved to Houston, Texas, and I went into the police academy. In retrospect It was really an excellent move for me because the police academy was a tremendous experience. I graduated from the police academy and did the usual night shift patrol, Tuesday and Wednesday off. I worked in some rough neighborhoods. They had this policy in Houston I don't know, they may still have it where once you get off probation you get called in and you have a choice You can do six months in the jail or one year in the dispatch. So I figured six months is always better than one year. So I did my six months working in the jail and then, almost to the day, they put me back on night shift patrol and.

Jim O'Keefe: 2:37

I had a great experience. I was able to work in the vice squad and work undercover and get into narcotics and child pornography and I had some really great experiences.

Steve Morreale: 2:45

So that experience of going into the jail must have changed your perspective a little bit and made you maybe a different police officer. Fair statement.

Jim O'Keefe: 2:52

You know what an excellent question, good for you. It did, i t really taught me how to be a better communicator, because you have to learn, because 80% of the people you're dealing with are drunk and you don't want to spend your whole time fighting. So I really really learned to be a better communicator and to try to persuade people to do what I want them to do with verbal command. So it actually did help in retrospect. At the time I really didn't want it. Who wants to go work in the jail? But now that I think back, it's definitely made me a better police officer.

Steve Morreale: 3:20

So you left New York under some challenging conditions because, as we talked about before we started the show, you weren't necessarily optimistic with what was going on at NYPD or in New York City, and that caused you to leave. Why Houston?

Jim O'Keefe: 3:34

I was looking around at different options and I wanted to go someplace warm. I wanted to go someplace where the economy was booming, where the city was clean, where housing is affordableefensive, where there's no income tax. I mean, there was a lot of really positive things that attracted me. I went down there and I loved the great state of Texas. The people could not be nicer and it just seemed like a really excellent opportunity for me.

Steve Morreale: 3:58

So at one point in time, after you finished your degree, you left Houston. What caused that and what did you come back for?

Jim O'Keefe: 4:05

Well, long story short, I found that Sam Houston State University was about 20 miles north of Houston, where I lived, and they had a world-class criminal justice doctoral program. They still do have a world-class criminal justice program, so I wanted to take advantage of that. So I was awarded a police scholarship and went back and I was working midnight so I could go to school down the date. I went back and earned my master's degree. I used to car pool up there with a couple of active police officers that I worked with, and then I saw the PhD program and I thought let me try, although I got to be honest with you, I really didn't think it was going to work.

Steve Morreale: 4:35

Well, let me ask you this, Jim it wasn't going to work, or did you feel, like many of us feel, that you are not worthy, that you're not smart enough to get involved in a PhD program?

Jim O'Keefe: 4:44

Yeah, I never thought about going for a PhD. I had been exposed to people in universities that had PhDs.

Jim O'Keefe: 4:50

But I thought you know what? I'm close to a world class doctoral program. Why not try? And when you're working steady midnight you don't feel like you're being necessarily productive because you feel like you're sleeping all day. So I applied and after a bunch of graduate exams and I was admitted and it was really unusual because I don't know if it still is, but at the time that was a full-time PhD program. So it was basically going to be a huge commitment for me because at the time I had a mortgage and a full-time job. So I gave it a shot and I must say I never worked harder and longer in my life, but I never grew more intellectually in my life either. So it turned out to be one of the best things I ever did.

Steve Morreale: 5:29

Great. So at some point in time you say I'm going back to New York, Tell me that story.

Jim O'Keefe: 5:33

Okay, the story was right around the time I finished up my Ph. D., I came home to Staten Island to visit my parents and I am literally sitting in my father's living room and I see Lee Brown, who at the time was my chief in Houston, and he's on a press conference with David Dinkins naming the police commissioner of the City in New York.

Steve Morreale: 5:50

Okay, strange happenstance, very convenient for you, huh.

Jim O'Keefe: 5:54

You could not have planned it better. So I spoke to Commissioner Brown, who was an absolute gentleman and, by the way, he's the individual that inspired me to think about a PhD, because he had a PhD at the time. He introduced me to a guy I didn't know named William Bratton ho at the time was taken command of the New York City Transit Police, and I was able to get on his management team and I came back up and went to work for the New York City Transit Police.

Jim O'Keefe: 6:18

At the time They were an independent law enforcement agency.

Steve Morreale: 6:20

That's very interesting. And, by the way, we're talking to Dr. Jim O'Keefe, a professor, former deputy commissioner at NYPD, ran the police academy and now is a professor at St John's University in Queens.

Intro: 6:30

New.

Steve Morreale: 6:31

York. So thank you for bringing us up to date. There's a couple of questions I want to ask. You moved through Bill Bratton and I know Bill from Boston for many, many years. I think I got to meet him in 75 when I was an MP and I was putting believe it or not, Jim, I was putting AWOLS in the district, which was in South Boston. He was the desk sergeant. That's how far about we go, i know. I know I believe it. And so you made your way back into policing in New York City, was with the Transit Police for a while and ultimately you moved through some of the ranks. Talk about that trajectory, because what I want to get to in the main, crux of our conversation today, is about police leadership, training and education.

Jim O'Keefe: 7:10

All right. Well, I count my blessings in that I over the years had the opportunity to work with some of the finest police leaders, I think, in the profession. So I'm working for Chief Bratton, at the time for the New York City Transit Police, and when I first went back I was the associate director of the Office of Management Budget. And then at the time New York City Transit Police were being trained in the New York City Police Academy And Chief Bratton rightfully thought that we should be training our own people because you can't outsourced that so important. So he asked me and a few other people if we could put together a New York City Transit Police Academy, which we did very quickly, and we established our own independent New York City Transit Police Academy and we trained our own recruits so that we could give them the vision and the inspiration.

Jim O'Keefe: 7:53

A lot of people may not realize this, but transit policing is in some ways fundamentally different municipal municipal policing.

Jim O'Keefe: 8:00

You know there's a different set of laws and a different set of regulations And if you don't train your own people you can't instill in them the pride in their organization. So when Chief Bratton first took command New York City Transit Police Office was felt like second-class citizens in New York City And, of course, that all changed very quickly as Chief Bratton went about to instill pride and confidence had a significant positive effect on crime. Crime dropped substantially. Things in the transit police department were going really well. And right around that time someone named Rudy Giuliani is elected mayor of the city of New York. And he decides to promote Chief Bratton to be the police commissioner and he merges all three departments the New York City Transit Police, the New York City Housing Police and the NYPD into one. And then at that time, Commissioner Bratton transferred me over and made me director of training of the newly consolidated New York City Police Academy. Wow, yeah, it's an amazing story. I mean, if I sat down to write it out, I couldn't have planned it better.

Steve Morreale: 8:57

Well, I understand that, and I think there's a book in you too, jim, because just what I'm hearing is the historical perspective, the changes and part of what I'm hearing And I say this to an awful lot of people I interviewed that I truly believe, while there's a lot of resistance when somebody new comes in, that one person can make a difference, and clearly you experienced that in two ways right With Lee Brown and with Bill Bratton and Jack Maple. I think of Jack Maple when I'm talking to you right.

Jim O'Keefe: 9:23

Yeah, Jackie was a dear friend. And I gotta tell you I experienced it actually three times, because I saw a significant transformation in the Houston Police Department when Chief Lee P. Brown came in because he was an enormous innovator as well. So, just as a young cop watching the department change for the better I've been able to live through at least three times in my life, and that's a real blessing because most people don't ever get a front seat.

Steve Morreale: 9:46

But actually, however, Well, i mean, it's about policing, it's about innovation, it's about progressive views, It's about changing cultures. What I'm hearing Let's talk about this just so that it can frame it for the people who are listening. And we are talking to Jim O'Keefe as a professor at St John's University and the former chief of police training at the New York City Police Academy, which is an amazing organization, very, very large, relatively new facility. Now I presume it was after you, the new Queens facility.

Jim O'Keefe: 10:14

Yeah, although I played a major role in designing that building and, commissioner Bratton, let me come and be there as we cut the ribbon to open it. So good, we're proud of that. That's great.

Steve Morreale: 10:25

So you're now teaching Let's talk about that And you're in the classroom, and the classroom in a university is certainly different than the classroom at a police academy. What are the differences? How do you approach your teaching? Has it changed over time? And that it's not about war stories, but it's about, in my estimation, extracting ideas for young people to think about and to grow, to create some critical thinking skills and research skills, and seeking evidence before you make a statement and before you take a stand. So talk about that, jim, and your transformation.

Jim O'Keefe: 11:00

The way I always do. That is the progression that I went through really prepared me for what I'm doing now, and the distinction that I make in my mind is in the New York City Police Academy we did train, which is perceptual nuts and bolts how to use a gun, how to drive the radio car, how to use a night stick, how to use your hands physical training. So I consider that to be training. Over the years I tried to push the envelope and get into the education business and do some more conceptual work, and we were able to do that. I'm very proud of that.

Steve Morreale: 11:29

Well, wait a minute. I was just going to say you're talking about the police academy, that you were moving that idea forward.

Jim O'Keefe: 11:35

Okay, yeah, and this is why I'm always involved in a conversation about should we require your cops to have a college education now? And the conclusion that I came through is we have two choices in this country. We can either recruit the educated or we can educate the recruits. Most police academies don't have the ability to educate the recruit, which is why I got involved in that very helpful PERF report about should we be requiring people with education.

Jim O'Keefe: 11:59

So the distinction that I make in my mind is that the university, I'm educating people. I'm talking about conceptual ideas and I'm challenging them to think about concepts, not things that they can touch or not. I'm not talking to them about NYC laws and handcuffs. I'm talking to them about the Bill of Rights and the rule of law. So it's different. It's more conceptual. Now, every once in a while, I bring in practical experiences because the students like that. So first I'll present a theoretical framework and then I'll explain to them in the real world how to just unfold and where does this, where does this come into play, and that sort of teaching is working well. I'm getting very good student evaluations for that. But that's a difference. I see the university is educating and the police academy trains.

Steve Morreale: 12:38

Actually, later in the week, I'm going to be interviewing Michael Berzer, and he's a former police officer at Wichita State University he does an awful lot of work on andragogy, using andragogy adult learning concepts in police training, and I want to tell you the story that I alluded to before we started. We were talking in a university-wide faculty meeting and everybody said you know what's your pedagogy, steve? And I said well, actually I don't have a pedagogy, i use androgogy. And literally someone said to me what do you mean? You teach adults. I was mystified by a professor with a PhD asking that question of me, and it told me that there is so much misunderstanding between adult learning concepts and child learning concepts, and so I'd be curious to know your view of that, as you have changed, evolved, had impact on police training.

Jim O'Keefe: 13:33

Well, the teaching strategies that I try to use are not what people think I mean the days are over where we used to call it a sage on the stage.

Jim O'Keefe: 13:41

You don't just stand in front of kids and lecture them anymore. That's not going to work. Their attention spans are too short, so you have to use more strategies like role playing, like breaking them up into groups, giving them challenges, and what I always try to do is stress the leadership component of everything Because, like you, I think that's a critical piece here. So I try to educate the students not to aspire to graduate and become a police officer or an FBI agent although, with all due respect, that's a great thing. I tell them they should aspire to be the police commissioner or the director of the FBI, and so I try to stretch out their vision a little bit more so that they understand that they're not limited to entry-level positions, because that's how they think. They think I'm going to school so that I could be a cop or a nurse or a teacher, and they don't really set their sights high enough to be thinking about leadership positions. So I always try to include leadership as an important component of what we're talking about.

Steve Morreale: 14:34

So let me cut to the chase. The first question I would ask of you about leadership is where did you learn to be a good leader?

Jim O'Keefe: 14:42

Oh, I learned watching some of the best.

Jim O'Keefe: 14:44

I worked for Lee P. Brown and Houston. I worked for Thomas Kobe in Houston. Then I came to New York and I worked with Michael O'Connor and the Transit Police and William Bratton and the Transit Police, Raymond Kelly, not to mention other high-ran king officials. They were just tremendous leaders. And you also see the ones that are not necessarily so strong in leadership. So there's a real ability to compare and contrast And what I noticed is the commands where the best cops always wanted to work were the ones with the best leadership.

Jim O'Keefe: 15:11

What that means is the commands where the officers want to work is the ones where they can self-actualize. They don't want to be bored, they don't want to drive around in a radio car answering calls all day. They want to spread their wings and they want to learn different aspects of policing. So leadership and policing is giving people who you trust an opportunity to do the things that they want to do. So they're constantly growing, because if you do that, you're accomplishing the mission and they're accomplishing their career goal and everybody wins. So leadership was about inspiring people and trusting people. I mean trust is our most reliable commodity in leadership.

Steve Morreale: 15:46

You said trust?

Jim O'Keefe: 15:48

And trust is a rare commodity in police force. I do.

Steve Morreale: 15:51

There's a lot of backstabbing that goes on there.

Jim O'Keefe: 15:54

Yeah, the command and control, traditional command and control shut that down. Yes, command and control tells you to shut up and do what you're told. Work with Raymond Kelly and William Bratton and Howard Safer and Bernie Kerik. You know I saw people and they all have different styles, but they're all able to inspire people to work harder than they normally would. To me, that's leadership.

Steve Morreale: 16:12

Well, the one thing that you say is trust Trusting people to let go. Don't micromanage them. See something in them where they have the ability. This is where you were talking about conceptual. What's your concept of trying to make this place better?

Steve Morreale: 16:27

Because it seems to me it's funny, in my experience and you know I've been around for a long time in different agencies and in policing and now at the academy that we very often underutilize the intellectual capacity and interest of the people who work for us. And when you set that free, by giving them a challenge, setting forth the curiosity, allowing them to be innovative, allowing them to identify problems and work out potential solutions, you're actually growing the organization. you're delegating to others, you're raising their value and you're also making them feel that they're part of the organization, that they have an ownership stake. Is that fair? I'm seeing your head shake a lot.

Jim O'Keefe: 17:06

Absolutely, and then they will work harder for you than you would ever want because they're invested. One of the things that always impressed me about the NYPD is they have such a deep leadership bench. They're so deep and that's because they develop people. If a commissioner retires today, there's always a person ready to step up and move right in, so as you go through the ranks and as you go through the assignments, the development is really always there. So it's just a real good way to see leadership and action.

Steve Morreale: 17:32

Well, you know, that's an interesting concept. I think so many people get very comfortable Another, we take a position and we like the position, we're very comfortable in position, and then somebody comes along and says I think it's time for you to move along. DEA did that, the police department that I was on, the military police did that, and even on campuses There's a little bit of that. Certain people say you know, jim, i tap you on the shoulder, i want you to be the associate provost, or I want you to go over there and start this program. I see that you went to Rome to do some work, to do a St John's in an Italian collaboration.

Steve Morreale: 18:01

Yeah in Paris too.

Jim O'Keefe: 18:02

Oh wow, I mean not a bad gig for a guy from New York, oh you know, we designed a global terrorism class and so I thought why teach it in New York? So we made really good connections with the terrorism people in Rome and also in Paris and we brought the students over there and they expose them to just astonishing global perspectives on terrorism and how all these agencies work together in this day and age because of the global nature of the problem.

Steve Morreale: 18:27

Well, your poll obviously thinks they're going on in Brussels, the world court. there's just amazing things. Even in a city as cosmopolitan as New York, there's an awful lot of blinders for young people to say well, I don't want to move beyond Queens, What do you mean? I got to go to Long Island, Never mind bringing them to a different country, right?

Jim O'Keefe: 18:45

Exactly, And it was really a tremendous experience. And, don't forget, one of the unique things about NYPD is that they have detectives NYPD terrorism detectives assigned abroad. I know So when I go to Paris, I called the detective assigned to Paris. He comes in and briefs up our students about a terrorist attack that happened last week. So it's a really strong connection and the students thoroughly enjoyed it.

Steve Morreale: 19:08

Yes, so did you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Hey, here's a little question for you Talking to Jim O'Keeffe. Dr Jim O'Keeffe, at St John's University, can leadership be taught? This is the age old question. What's your feeling?

Jim O'Keefe: 19:20

Yeah, sure, it's a combination of personality, communication skills, but the tactic and the strategies of leadership can be taught. When it all comes together, it's really powerful. It doesn't always all come together, but there are components of leadership that can absolutely be taught. Yeah.

Steve Morreale: 19:37

OK, what do you bring from Houston PD, from NYPD, to St John's?

Jim O'Keefe: 19:42

I think I bring a really deep historical understanding of how policing has changed in the game, how technology has changed, how the importance of being an effective communicator has changed, and one of the things that I think about is I think that we are on the verge of another major transition in American policing, because think about one of the things that I worry about we can't train cops the same way as we used to anymore, because they're facing a different world. All of these so-called reforms such bailout forms, diaphragm laws, qualified immunity being taken away from the New York City cops we've got to fundamentally change the way we prepare young men and women to do this job now, because it's a different job, it's a different city, it's a different world. So what I try to do is I try to teach the history of policing where we've come from, where we are now, and I love talking about where we're going to be five years from now, because it's fascinating. Well, we're going to be five minutes from now.

Steve Morreale: 20:35

Yeah, well, it's interesting because I had the opportunity to interview Bill Bratton, your former boss, and he indicated that teaching the history of policing could help people understand the way people feel. Certain groups of people feel about the policing because of the way maybe their grandparents or great grandparents were treated or perceived the police, or perceived the police from the country that they came from, that they emigrated from. I think that's such an important thing. I agree with that 1000%, and it sounds like you do too.

Jim O'Keefe: 21:03

Yes, especially in New York City, where you can literally bring recruits to a neighborhood and introduce them to people that just came here from different places in the world, and they'll tell you how they view the police and what they expect. And it's so important. You know, if you don't understand where you came from, you don't understand where you're going, and so sometimes it could be a little boring. So I try hard to liven it up a little bit. I want them to understand why there were so many Irish cops in the NYPD.

Steve Morreale: 21:27

There's a reason for that, and once you understand all of that stuff, it does enlighten us and help us understand why it's so complex, well, but certainly you have gone through a period of time where the complexion of the New York City Police Department changed completely, where it's quite representative, and obviously I want to ask this question As you're sitting in meetings at the academy and you are trying to keep the curriculum current. What were the conversations you had around the table?

Jim O'Keefe: 21:55

Conversations include and I go back to this what did leadership do to prepare people for the kind of world that we're going to be policing by via some of what kind of technological changes are happening right before our very eyes? You and I live with the introduction of DNA evidence. Look how that change things. Look how body cameras are changing things. Of course We're going to have flying police cars someday.

Steve Morreale: 22:15

Well, well, jeb. I mean, it wasn't too long before I started that there were call boxes, not? pagers and not cell phones and not MDTs. We have changed, yes.

Jim O'Keefe: 22:26

Some of my students. When I first started I couldn't leave the radio car because I didn't have a portable radio and I wouldn't if. I left the radio so I wouldn't have the radio, and they looked at the new York City cop test smartphones with all kinds of data real time available to them on the spot.

Steve Morreale: 22:39

This isn't crazy, i thought to myself. what we're talking about is police, futurist, thinking forward. Where are we going to be in the future? How can we improve things? And it sounds like that you set the table in your classes to allow students to think about. here's where you know, i always like to do what's the past, the present and the future, and when you begin to think about that, it allows people I think it allows people to sort of blossom. when you're asking people to think about the future, what impact can they have to improve policing and police services in the future? Again, you spark their curiosity and you spark their intellectual capacity. What do you say?

Jim O'Keefe: 23:15

One of the things that I love to see in the future of policing is a stronger collaboration with universities and police academies. Now that there are people like you and me and James McCabe in the world and Paul O'Connell, i would love to see some kind of state training agency say OK, these are the behavioral science courses, you can take these at a university of your choice, and then we can actually shorten the police academy and just do the police science and the nothing both in the police academy, and I think that would benefit everyone involved. So I like to see more collaboration with those two agencies because right now, as you know, they don't speak to each other in their two different worlds. I always worry about a young person that comes to a university, gets a first rate degree Nowadays they're getting master's degrees and then they go to the police academy and they sit there and listen to the introductions of police. There's got to be a way to make that work better together.

Steve Morreale: 24:03

Interesting Again. I talked to a person named Lisa Lane a few weeks ago and she runs a police academy. She comes from a policing family police academy at Fitchburg State University and the kids start in their freshman year. Basically. She told me that I know those kids for four years. If they don't drop out before they even hit the academy, as soon as they graduate from a bachelor's degree, 40 or 50 percent of the academy is done its way because they've already got a bachelor's degree and we have designed it that way, and then they go to a 16 or 18 week academy instead of a 25 or 27 week Academy. So there are some models out there. I can see that. But you know it's interesting because you and I, in this case, have our feet in both areas policing and academia And yet on campus and I know we're both on campus there are people who disdain policing on our very campuses.

Steve Morreale: 24:53

And yet there are people who are working to make better practitioners in criminal justice, not necessary policing, and so that causes problems. I'll give you an example. Somebody was talking about the academy and I forwarded on LinkedIn, of course, where we see each other occasionally but I forwarded something and made a comment on an article that had to do with the benefit of higher education for police, and the invective that came from that innocent post to say maybe we do need to have our police officers have at least a two year degree because of the difficulties of the job, the different people that they deal with, that it can help them with the humanitarian aspect, with the sociological aspect, with the psychological aspect. And it was just I was ripped apart by people who said this is the ivory tower, they are this, this negative image of academia now out there And I'm concerned about that because that's not the way we operate in the classroom. So talk about that. And how do you wrestle with that cultural difference on campus?

Jim O'Keefe: 25:55

That's a great question There is, I think now more than ever there's more talk on campus about diversity, inclusion. Sometimes, along the way we get pulled into that conversation as racist and unfair. There's a lot of misunderstanding. I mean, look what just happened in Atlanta, where the people who are complaining the police weren't doing their job well, so they plan to build the Academy called ‘cop city” in Atlanta.

Steve Morreale: 26:16

Yes, it is. It is And they were blocking it because it's just a haven for them to create more racist cops. I mean, that was at least the perspective.

Jim O'Keefe: 26:24

If that's what you think, then you would think that they would support building a place where you would educate cops better. So their own logic breaks down when you really get into it. It is a constant conflict. You see universities where they tell public safety officers OK, you know, no more I want to wear a golf shirt and I don't want you to carry a gun, or, if you do, conceal it. So that constant and that's always going to be there.

Jim O'Keefe: 26:45

I imagine that ROTC people face that same kind of approach, where people don't like the military and they take ROTC students marching around on the lawn. There's always going to be that. You just have to continue to try to explain to people that the solution that they want to better police and is going to come from better education, and why would they be opposed to that? They should be in their health enough to make that happen. It's a constant conflict. I had situations where we invited uniformed officers to campus to speak to my students and other faculty members calling up, saying what's going on? Why are there cops like that?

Steve Morreale: 27:17

Because they saw a couple of radio calling a couple of uniforms, for I've been accused of being a police apologist because I was. I have a background in policing, like you do, and yet I think there's a misunderstanding, and I find that very often. I have to explain. Hey, why should cops wear guns on campus, is the question. And I'll say, well, because the campus is a little bit away from the police station in the city of Worcester And if something's going down, i'd like to have somebody who can hold a problem at bay with the appropriate training and equipment, which is kind of crazy.

Jim O'Keefe: 27:48

And our campus is wide open. I mean there's no gate, that's why I've always said police in a free society is a contradiction in terms. It's always goint to be. of it's never going to be. People don't want to be police. They don't want to be told what to do. Nowadays, everybody is getting on a bandwagon with these on the police, and so there's always going to be that tension. But I try to tell people in my mind there is nothing worse than a and cop, there's nothing better than a good cop. Yeah, I like it. And so let's hold hands and work together and produce as many good ones as possible, because society needs them. And even if these from the police, people in private, will acknowledge that it's a little bit for things to be saying.

Steve Morreale: 28:22

Yeah, but you know it's interesting. I've had some people who have spoken out who are either adjunct professors in the policing world or alums, and when certain liberal colleges or universities strike out at police, they take the time to say, hey time out. Many of your students your alumnus are police officers. Now you helped to teach them. Why would you slap them like that? That's like saying the same thing about nursing. You know there's a bad nurse and those nurses. Shouldn't You train nurses and lawyers? and it's on and on and doctors, and you don't see that happening, except for those who regulate society Police.

Jim O'Keefe: 28:58

And one of the things that concerns me terribly about the rhetoric that we hear today is that I notice a significant drop in the number of my students who now want to become police officers. Me, too. A lot of them are shying away from it now because they hear all the negative things, and I have more and more students saying to me what kind of careers can I have besides, other than police work?

Steve Morreale: 29:18

I see the same thing. I would say it's not empirical. But I would say when I started back in just after 2000, that probably 50 percent of my students wanted to be cops and we're lucky if we're at 20 percent.

Jim O'Keefe: 29:29

I agree. You know what I love to do, though. When I teach a class, i make a point to learn their names. I talk to them about their aspirations so I get a feel for what they're looking for. I still see some of the finest young people you could ever want sitting in my classroom. They can't wait to become some type of law enforcement officer.

Jim O'Keefe: 29:45

And so I don't mind working hard and developing and giving that student extra work, but you're right, it's probably down to about a third And out of the third, even less want to be local, more and more want to be federal agents. And that's great too, bob, i know, but I think that's part of the rhetoric that we hear on this. It's really disruptive and it's counterproductive.

Steve Morreale: 30:02

Are you telling me you care about your students?

Jim O'Keefe: 30:07

You know, i gotta tell you I'm glad that I became a professor at this point in my life, because at this point in my life I can love my students, because I don't need anything. I'm not looking to get promoted, i don't need to be recognized, my ego has been well served, all the things that I need are accomplished. So, like I tell my students, i'm here for you, i don't need to be doing this. I could be sitting in Miami right now drinking a mojito, but I want to be here, and so once you establish that, it's a really positive job?

Steve Morreale: 30:33

Well, it's establishing rapport, And what we're doing, I think and we're very lucky to be able to do that is educating the next generation and paying forward.

Jim O'Keefe: 30:41

Yes, i agree, i can't think of anything else that I'd rather be doing at this point in my life than working at a fine university teaching criminal justice. And you know it's even more exciting for me. We have three programs at St John's, so I have undergraduate in criminal justice and I have master's degree in criminal justice leadership. So then you get more conceptual and you can really give them some of the leadership theory and get them excited about being leaders. And we now have a program program in homeland security. And that's a whole other level Talking to doctoral students, because many of them are on the other side of their career, they're finishing up and they're looking for something to do after their retirement. So they're experienced professionals In many cases first rate experienced professionals. So then the leadership conversations are even better with them, because now it's a conversation, it's not a lecture. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Morreale: 31:28

Yeah, well, look, here's the story And this is what I'll say in classes. And we're talking to Jim O'Keefe, by the way, he is a professor at St John's University, and when I have the conversation is to say, look, I'm Dr. Morreale, but I don't know at all. I'm still learning. I'm a lifelong learner And I guarantee you in this class, including undergraduate classes, i'm going to learn from you, because it keeps you in tune with how young people think and what their perspectives and perceptions are.

Jim O'Keefe: 31:52

It does. And I always say, and I tell my students, before you come to class every day, read the paper, because you'll see a real life example of what I'm talking about. So you don't think that I'm making this up in the morning when I drive in here. So I tell them one of the best textbooks for criminal justice is the New York Post.

Steve Morreale: 32:08

Yeah, well, one of the things I do I'll share with you, and I know you may, especially in online classes. I do student-led articles And I assign students student-led articles And the students will say I learned as much from that which was posted and the discussion that goes on behind that. I always say from that article, post two pointed questions for students to consider. And it really begins to help people understand what's going on in the world.

Jim O'Keefe: 32:31

The fascinating thing to me about criminal justice always has been that it's an applied discipline. You could get a master's degree in criminal justice and go into the police academy and do miserably and fail out. Or get through the police academy and go into a field training program and not be able to apply this stuff and fail out. So you have to have people that are well-rounded and now get the concept and then apply the concept in a world where there's no telling what I'm going to face when I pull up in that radio car. So the applied aspect of it I think always makes it more fascinating than, say, if I would teach them statistics. It's a little bit more difficult to apply.

Steve Morreale: 33:02

Yes, Well, i want to wind down with a couple of points of view and thoughts about a few things, one of them being police training and the PERF report that you did. Let's leave that for last. But as we've been talking an awful lot about college and college education and criminal justice program, i'd be curious to know now you were a provost at some level and ran the Staten Island campus for a while, so that you were in an administrative position around that table, and you know that meetings on campus are much different than meetings in policing. We talk about the same things over and over again, which will frustrate us sometimes because I think we can do.

Steve Morreale: 33:40

Let's stop talking about it and make something happen. Let's try something out. But what do you see as your product? When I was the chair, we used to talk and say how is it going? What's going on in the classroom? What kind of a product are we trying to put out here with our students? In other words, how do we make them better and position them for better opportunities in the field? What's your product?

Jim O'Keefe: 34:01

Well, as a vice-provost, for me that was fascinating because every academic discipline I had a different method for what my product was, for example, the business and finance students. I knew that they were getting a good education because before they graduated they were getting offered jobs by the finest firms in Manhattan. The students in the legal studies program are getting accepted into the finest law schools with scholarships. The students in the school of education were getting jobs as teachers. So I always use as a metric of success are you getting the job, the career that you wanted to prepare for If you wanted to go to graduate school? are you getting into a good graduate school? Are you getting into the law schools? And so I've always watched that. And of course, you watch the other thing the retention rate how many come back for the second year. The persistence rate how many come back for the third year. The graduation rate how many actually graduate. Those are the things that I watched that can't be focused on how well we were doing.

Intro: 34:52

And the numbers were good.

Jim O'Keefe: 34:53

At one point my campus had a 93.5 retention rate, which means 93.5% of my freshmen came back for their sophomore year, which is important because that's why you lose students after the freshman year. So a lot of the leadership skills that I learned from going across that meeting just applied to run the college campus, and they work, that's very interesting.

Steve Morreale: 35:14

When I ask about the product, I want to talk about criminal justice. If you had to assess what skills your students leave St John's with, what are the things that you are trying to improve?

Jim O'Keefe: 35:26

Well, you're looking for them to be able to be critically thinking and be able to critically analyze something they hear, or story they read, or the latest YouTube video that's going around the violent encounter between the police and somebody else, that they can be critical and understand the context of that encounter, you know, and that they've read the important books, they've had the important lectures, they know what they want to do or spend a lot of time, because many students don't really know why they're studying criminal justice, and so it's important for me to outline to them all the various opportunities that are open, especially today, you know, look at what's going on in corporate security. So a lot of us now are not going to go work for NYPD, they're going to go work for mobile oil or Goldman Sachs corporate security infrastructure protection, cybersecurity, network security, personnel security right Yeah, and when you explain to them that most terrorist attacks happen against private companies.

Jim O'Keefe: 36:19

At least private companies are looking to protect against that.

Steve Morreale: 36:22

Wall Street, the SEC, I mean, I know, I know government, I know it's crazy.

Jim O'Keefe: 36:26

I just want them to understand that there's. The only limit to what they can do with that education is their imagination and their own aspirations. The days are over saying that you have to be an NYPD cop.

Steve Morreale: 36:36

Of course you can but you don't have to. Yeah, I'm going to add a couple of things that I see as a professor and as a member of faculty, that we're attempting to do, and I know it's the same with you. it is about to improve research skills and writing skills and communication skills and presentation skills and all of those things. I see your head shaking, you agree?

Jim O'Keefe: 36:55

Oh, absolutely, and those things are built into the class. I mean every class that I teach my students present their research. at the end of the semester they stand up and present it. I let them pick their own topic, but they do have to research. they have to research it and they have to present it and they have to defend it. Yeah, those are all essential elements, i think, and probably any major. And I tell them if you're shy about standing up and speaking in class, that's not going to work. You're never going to get promoted that way. So learn here where you're safe, before you go into the workplace and your boss tells you to stand up and do a presentation. Those are all essential.

Steve Morreale: 37:24

Great, great explanation. Thank you very much. So you're back to faculty. Talk about that. You were administrator for a long time. You're back to faculty. Are you relieved? Are you relaxed? Are?

Jim O'Keefe: 37:34

you happy? Absolutely. I was a provost for nine years and I had a long successful career and I've always worked really hard.

Jim O'Keefe: 37:41

Every job that I've ever had, I worked 12-hour days, six days a week. I never had a regular eight-hour job. So I thought about it and I just said to the provost listen, I think this is the last year that I'm going to do this. I gave my years notice. I want to go back to faculty and I want to go back to having time to think about what I'm teaching Reflection. It's been an absolute lesson. I love it. Teach a couple of days a week and then you have time to prepare, think and read. I have time to work with Perth, with professional organizations, Police Executive Research Forum, with the research advisory board. You have time to get involved in the discipline and to work with colleagues. When you're a vice provost, you don't have time to really do scholarly work. You don't have administrative work. It's hard as you work to earn a PhD. I just wanted to have some time to be a scholar.

Steve Morreale: 38:25

I'm glad. Well, welcome back. Welcome back to the fold. I think it's a great thing. Let's finish by talking about the report that you were engaged in. The report is from the Police Executive Research Forum. It's available online for free. It's called Transforming Police Recruit Training 40 Guiding Principles.

Steve Morreale: 38:41

Now, there's a lot of meat here and there's a lot of, of course, anytime you put something out, there's a lot of criticism. Well, yeah, she can't compare what they do in Scotland to what they do here or what they do in Ireland or what they do here. I don't know that. I agree with that. I spent a lot of time with the guard up, even Police Scotland, and what they do differently is they have and I know, you know this they have a situation where, when you're done with training, you come back to the academy and you discuss what you saw, what you did, what was real, what was, what was realistic in the academy, what was different? how would you change? how did you handle that call? how did your other partner handle the call? how would you handle it differently? We don't reflect that. Well, so talk about that.

Jim O'Keefe: 39:22

One of the reasons I love working with PERF twice twice a year you come together with all these chiefs of police twice some key academics as well, and you all sit the same room and you talk about the same issue and you talk about the way different people are addressing it and the different perspectives are Remarkable and the vast majority of them can be applied wherever you work. Of course There's municipal differences, there's differences in the budget. Things NYPB do. A lot of departments can't, because they don't have 36,000 sworn members, right, but the principles are all there.

Jim O'Keefe: 39:53

So when we were talking about the different ways that the police training is changing, keep in mind we're talking about everybody from a regional academy of state New York, where they may have a class f oecruits ecruits rck ck, of the NYPD, where we may have a class of 2000, but the principles are the same. You know things like having a university professor, a visiting professor, come into the police academy speak is really a great Contribution, and so one of the characters that I spoke to said yeah, that's great, you can afford to pay them. And I said you know what? we get around that the universities will pay them and put them on Leaves because it values their career development too. There are ways to talk about these things where everybody benefits, and I think that's really important to police and Chuck Wexler for my good friend, it's all good, it's a Boston guy, that Chuck?

Jim O'Keefe: 40:35

Oh yeah, I know, I know the Boston guy and he has Town Halls.

Steve Morreale: 40:39

I've been to several.

Jim O'Keefe: 40:40

We're. He'll just go around the room and say new york, chicago, los angeles, what are you doing? What are you doing? and the best idea is right to the top and we need that and I'll this one. We really do well.

Steve Morreale: 40:49

They put out some good reports too. And again, for those who are not familiar, not even members of the police executive research forum, there are an awful lot of documents out there critical issues in policing series, that that including how to train sergeants and such But I want to go through this particular report talks about the current state of recruit training, guiding principles for reengineering recruit training And how to fundamentally change how we train the next generation of police officers. And one of the things I see here And you know there's an awful lot here for too long police is a section. For too long police academies have trained recruits more like soldiers than police officers and Which is quite interesting and it's troubling to some people because we don't want to change the way we've done things. But it sounds to me that your role in this about changing training Something you experienced yourself and you guided yourself at the new york police academy and again you're paying forward. So where do you see this report going?

Jim O'Keefe: 41:41

Well, my hope and I have reason to believe that it's happening Is that the different chiefs all around the country will read it and at least get some ideas What we call their training director in and say, hey, did you ever try this? Did you ever think about this? because as we move from authoritative command and control to what they call Enlightened command and control, which is a night of kindler and gentler command and control, that transformation is going to happen At the academy. First, you have to lay the foundation there and I love to see if there's a new book out called trust and inspire by Stephen Covey. You should read that book. It's a really good book because if he talks about trust and inspire being the next step in the continuum of this Transformation of leadership, that's not going to happen if the recruits are jamming up against the wall when a sergeant walks by And told to say yes or yes or yes, sir, every time someone says something.

Jim O'Keefe: 42:30

Now There are parts of the police academy where you want a command and control. I'm not going to run a loose range. I'm not going to run a loose gym. I'm not going to run loose when I'm talking about tactics that we're going to use for Alright, but in the classroom you have to loosen that up and you have to encourage people to be thoughtful, to think and to challenge ideas. You can do both. Cops are smart enough to know that there's a time and a place to fall in line And there's a time and a place where you can talk about things. Police work is like that. If my sergeant tells me to do something and there's, I'll ask them Is there a better way to do this? However, if they're working in the police station trying to burn the place down, that's not the time to discuss orders.

Steve Morreale: 43:12

I understand this. That's the time. Yes, those tactical situations. Sorry, i'm in charge. We're making decisions now but later any other time. We don't have to do that.

Steve Morreale: 43:20

You know it's interesting what I'm hearing here. I understand when an academy starts and I've been through three or four of them myself That it's rigid. At first We're trying to weed out the people that can't cut it. But eventually you don't want to have the sage on the stage as much as you want a facilitator to open the discussion, to help people think, to help people challenge what they believe or what they've heard, and I think that's a movement that we're going through in classrooms. You've been in European universities and you know it's. It's the professor talking to the students and don't challenge me. I'm the professor, right, i insist on that in my classes and I'm sure you do challenge Respectfully, but challenge my point of view right.

Jim O'Keefe: 43:59

You know my students do. Now It's actually funny. They fact-checked me on Google when I'm teaching In real time. You know I've had in real time, i've had a suit.

Steve Morreale: 44:08

Raise a hand and say I think you're wrong there, professor.

Jim O'Keefe: 44:12

And that's great. This is a place to open conversation, so it's more fun for everyone involved and you can do that in police academies. You know, in NYPD we had a behavioral science section where I would deliberately teach certain courses about culture conflict. That would not what I know the recruits wanted to hear, but they needed to hear it. So I would deliberately, I used to say, stretch them to the left a little bit because you have to. I don't want everything to be.

Steve Morreale: 44:37

Yeah, that's great to hear. So we're winding down with Jim O'Keefe, Dr. Jim O'Keefe at St John's University, former big wig at the New York Police Department and the New York police academy and we've been talking about a number of things, including changing training and The value of education and such. But, Jim, as we get to the end, let's talk about maybe a leadership challenge that you had difficulty wrestling with and where you turn for some advice and counsel to make the decisions in tough situations.

Jim O'Keefe: 45:09

Good question. There were a number of leadership challenges, and that's because any police department today is dealing with a political environment that's very turbulent and very counterintuitive is what I would say. So we would do things like build a comprehensive training program to teach young officers How to do a proper stop question and possibly grip and we know it's lawful because there's been supreme court cases on it And we would teach officers how to do it lawfully and then the number of shootings would drop and the city would get safe.

Jim O'Keefe: 45:39

Yet there would always be someone to come along and sue you and say, oh, you can't do that, it's unconstitutional. So there were a lot of times where we were doing things that were working in police work and they weren't Unconstitutional, they weren't overly aggressive, in fact, they were deliberately the opposite. And yet You're still challenged and pushed back. It's hard to police in a free society where I know a small amount of people are responsible for a large amount of crime, but the district attorneys don't want to prosecute the Peter Fenders, so we're arresting the same people over and, over and over again.

Jim O'Keefe: 46:10

There's always a challenge when you believe in your heart what you're doing is right, but you're being called before commission or city council and being forced to examine like you're a lunatic and people want to question everything. So there's a constant balance about what we think and the department we should be doing and what the elected officials Who, ultimately, our police commission works for, think we should be doing. So there was always times Well, i had to go to college that I trusted and admire take this around and we would very often come to the conclusion Look, let's do the best we can. That's all we can do. There's gonna be pushback, there's gonna be people that disagree, but police from the free society, you're never really gonna be able to do everything you want to do.

Steve Morreale: 46:49

It's just not gonna have a while back You wrote a book. Yeah, it had to do about training. Talk about that. tell people what that book was.

Jim O'Keefe: 46:55

What I want to do is to try to get my experiences and for down in a book about what I thought the important lessons were On how to build a good police academy. So I talked about what we spoke about before, about the necessity of police science and law and discipline, the importance of behavioral science and closer conflict and stretching people out and giving them some education. I spoke about the difficulty you find in instructors that are capable of doing both, and I talked about the fact that there is no cheap way to run a first-rate police academy. So I just tried to get all of that down in one place, because at the time I was getting a lot of phone calls and emails and people come around the world from emerging democracies that wanted to know how do you train police in a democracy. Because we're trying to move that way, i just tried to get my ideas down at one place that I thought would be helpful.

Steve Morreale: 47:44

What was the name of that book?

Jim O'Keefe: 47:46

protecting the republic. Right, i was trying to How it is that we can police a free republic. Great, just a way for me to try to get all my experiences and ideas down before they Want to wait.

Steve Morreale: 47:57

I remember reading that when it came out, so congratulations for that, for that work. So we've been talking to Jim O'Keefe at St. John's University in New York City. I want to thank you for being here. I want you to thank you for sharing. I want to thank you for sharing some of the history and some of your own perspectives on what's going on, and welcome you back into the classroom.

Jim O'Keefe: 48:18

Thank you. It's been a real pleasure to see you and it's been a real pleasure to speak to you, and I hope we have a chance to work together again in the future.

Steve Morreale: 48:24

Well, one thing I didn't say, Jim. I remember standing in Boston at ACJS many, many, many years ago. And you and I were waiting to go into legal seafood and we struck up a conversation and we ended up eating lunch together, and I remember that the rest is history, as we say. So thank you so much for your time and for your energy. Have a great summer and good luck back in the classroom. Thank you, my friend. God bless. This is Steve Morreale. OK, again, this has been The CopD oc Podcast. We have another episode in the books. We've been talking to Dr. Jim O'Keefe. Thanks very much for listening. Stay tuned for other episodes coming forward and share this with people if you get value out of it. Stay safe and have a great summer.

Intro: 49:02

Thanks for listening to The CopD oc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester S tate University. Please tune into The CopD oc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.