Navigating Police Leadership and Succession in a Changing World: Insights from Deputy Chief Sean Riley

Season 6 - Episode 113 - The CopDoc Podcast

What does it take to be a successful police leader in a constantly evolving world? Join us in our latest Cop Doc Podcast episode as we dive into the mind of Deputy Chief Sean Riley from the Framingham Massachusetts Police Department. We explore the challenges and rewards of leading a force of 136 sworn officers, handling a diverse population, and managing a transition from a town to a city.

Deputy Chief Riley shares invaluable insights on the importance of police leadership succession planning and cultivating a lasting legacy. As a true leader, he offers practical advice to new lieutenants, stressing the significance of listening to their team and speaking with one voice. We also delve into the role of civilian staff in policing and how they contribute to the ever-growing mental health calls.

But there's more to leading a police department than meets the eye. Deputy Chief Riley reveals his plans for creating a community impact unit that aims to address calls for service, crime, mental health, and quality of life issues. We discuss the international implications of the Framingham Police Department and the mentor-mentee approach he employs with his team. Don't miss this thought-provoking episode featuring a true leader who's passionate about the men and women in blue.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro : 0:02

Welcome to the Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The cop doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morialli and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale: 0:32

Well, hello everybody again. This is Steve Morialli, coming to you from Boston, massachusetts, and today we go next door from where I live to the next town, framingham It actually is now a city, framingham, massachusetts and I have the pleasure of talking to Deputy Chief Sean Rally. He has the operations responsibility for patrol. He told me patrol investigations, canine and such, so I want to welcome you this morning. How are you, sean?

Sean Reilly: 0:54

How are?

Steve Morreale: 0:55

you, how are you? Thanks for being here. Before we begin, let's start talking about not you yet, but about the department. Describe the department, talk about the transition from town to city and what that means. How big are you, what's your volume? Those kinds of things, the things you can tell us about your department.

Sean Reilly: 1:09

Absolutely So. The city of Framingham obviously is a fairly new city. We were a town up until approximately five years ago, 2018 we became a city. As far as the day-to-day operations of the police department, it really hasn't impacted it too much. Obviously, the way the chief, lester Baker, kind of manages his way through city hall is a little bit different. There's not a town meeting The city council mayor, so that changed a little bit from that perspective. But for the day-to-day operations of the police department, it really hasn't impacted us all that much.

Sean Reilly: 1:40

The city of Framingham police department is comprised when we're fully staffed I think that's important to put out there where we would be 136 sworn law enforcement officers. That's from the chief all the way down to the most junior police officer. We're currently about too shy of that, and the reason why we're too shy is we have some people that will be attending the police academy. We have some recent graduates that will be graduating in the next month, so we have two available openings as of today, which is actually probably better than the national average, i would think. So we're doing pretty good with hiring.

Sean Reilly: 2:12

As far as call volume goes for the city, we average about 50,000 calls for service a year. That's logged calls for service. We are interactions with the public far greater than that, but a lot of that doesn't get called out Community engagement piece. A lot of just the everyday work that the men and women do and the phone calls that come in Don't get necessarily added. So it's probably, when you think about it, a couple hundred thousand encounters at least a year that officers have with the residents and those visiting or working in the city of Framingham.

Sean Reilly: 2:41

Framingham itself is about 72 to 75,000 residents as of the last census. We're approximately 26 square miles. It's a very diverse population. Those that are not familiar with the city of Framingham we have a very urban and suburban environment in the city. The south side is a very city-like environment And then you can go on to the north side And I would say in certain sections it's even rural. So very dynamic population. We have a very high Brazilian population in the city, probably one of the highest in the Commonwealth, if not maybe even in the country, as far as per capita how many Brazilian folks we have. So language barrier is probably one of our bigger issues that we encounter right now.

Sean Reilly: 3:24

But we have various units within the police department. Obviously, we have our basic patrol operations, but we have a full-time detective bureau that works weekends, holidays, they're not on Monday through Friday, they're a five-on three-off schedule. We have a crime scene services bureau. We have four canines dive team, metro West Drug Task Force, so a very active police department within the Metro West area.

Steve Morreale: 3:46

Okay, so we're talking to Deputy Chief Sean Riley from Framingham Massachusetts Police Department, a mid-sized police department with 130 plus sworn, and obviously you have a pretty strong civilian or a professional staff. But I want to ask a couple of questions about you. First of all, how long have you been on? What's your trajectory? What did you serve as you moved up in policing and in this department?

Sean Reilly: 4:08

I'll hit my 30th anniversary this October. October 6th I started my career at the Suffolk County Sheriff's Department, working at the House of Correction in Boston. That's where I started my career with the ultimate goal of becoming a street cop, which I was able to do by getting hired with the Winter Police Department in September of 1996 as a reserve police officer. So I worked part-time shifts with the Winter Police Department until I was hired full-time, but I also worked full-time with the Sheriff's Department at the same time. So I worked a little bit of both jobs. Got on the job in 1998 full-time as a police officer in the town of Winter. Then I transferred to the Framingham Police Department in November 15th of 2001, shortly after. So yeah, it's a great question. I wanted more in my career. It was a larger police department. I knew one of the lieutenants there.

Sean Reilly: 4:52

There's the family connection. My brother was married to a Framingham resident whose father was a lieutenant with the Framingham Police Department. That was my connection to Framingham And I guess I wanted to expand my career, go to a bigger department where there was more to do and have hopefully some upward mobility to do various types of things in policing, which I've been very lucky.

Steve Morreale: 5:10

Well, clearly you did. You're now the deputy chief. What's the setup? So you have a chief, lester Baker. You have how many deputy chiefs?

Sean Reilly: 5:17

We have three deputy chiefs. I oversee the operations side of the house, which basically the boots on the ground, i like to call it, the men and women that are on patrol, detective, bureau, investigative units. And then we have the executive officer, ron Brandolini. He handles more of the budget side of the house the building, the fleet And then we have an administrative deputy chief that handles all most of our civilian side of the house with records, it type issues, et cetera.

Steve Morreale: 5:43

In 30 years, you've had exposure and experience to a couple of different police departments, including the correction side of things, and you've seen many different people and many different styles of leadership some stern, some laissez-faire, think. The question that I ask an awful lot of people is how do you gain or what do you glean from those people, to put it into your customized approach to leadership? Yeah, that's a great question.

Sean Reilly: 6:08

You learn from both good and bad leaders. You take a lot of. I think the biggest thing is taking the strengths from your really good leaders and avoiding the pitfalls of the leaders that had rank but they didn't have leadership ability A difference in the two. Your rank is your rank, but there are a lot of people that are leaders within our organizations that don't hold any rank, and people will follow them And I think a lot of it comes down to trust, communication and listening, listening to the men and women that you're in charge of And I say in charge of because of your rank, but they do the work for you.

Sean Reilly: 6:39

So I think that was probably, as I was coming up through the ranks, probably some of the biggest things you know communication, communication, letting the men and women know what's going on. You can't let them know everything that's happening once you get up into that chief's office, but I think advising them and understanding the why you're doing what you're doing that is, i think, super, super important. It's easy for us to give orders hey, I need you to do this but we're in a generation of police officers that want to know why they're doing something, and I think we need to address that and make sure that we are expressed on why we do what we do.

Steve Morreale: 7:12

Yeah, but you're a 30 year veteran I was too, and we can pin it on the new generation. But so many times when you and I were coming up, we weren't told things. but you can't say that we weren't standing by to say why the hell are they making that change? I mean, we wanted to know as much as anyone except. I suppose we were raised in an era where you did not question, and yet now I suppose people question. but don't you need to know why, as the deputy chief? why someone's asking you to do something so you can sell it easier?

Sean Reilly: 7:42

You're 100% correct, you nailed it. We asked the same questions in our head, but 30 years ago you just didn't question it because you would be on a walk and beat on the midnight shift. But yes, i think we had that same reason why we're doing what we're doing, and I think that's where the profession is evolving in a positive direction. I think the leaders today are implementing some of the things that we wanted done back in our day, but we're just afraid, maybe, to say something.

Steve Morreale: 8:05

That's a fair thought, you know. I want to go back to something you said a little bit ago and it troubles me, not because you said it, but because, over and over, i hear that and that is that there's so much work that we ask people to do building relationships, talking with people, pressing the flesh, if you will And yet we don't seem to care or know how to capture that. And I wonder whether or not, as you're sitting in meetings to say, think about what you said, sean, we have about 150,000 calls to service per year, but we probably have 150,000 interactions. Is it not important, do you think, to try for us to figure out how to capture that work, those attempts, those community meetings and such? Do you have conversations about that? Do you ever scratch your head? How do you explain what people do during their day?

Sean Reilly: 8:54

That's incredibly important. So we try to capture that by logging directed patrols and that type of thing, because this is the way I explain it to the officers when they ask, when we ask to do some sometimes mundane tasks. I say it's important to document these interactions because that way there, when we get questions at the chief's office and they say what are you doing about traffic complaints? So what are you doing in certain neighborhoods, we can bring up the data to show that yes, our officers are in those neighborhoods Document. We have a pretty robust Facebook and Twitter page Documenting, even by pictures, that we are out in the neighborhoods, various events, et cetera. Quantifying positive interactions sometimes can be difficult, right, because it's mostly just calls for service that get logged. But community engagement is something that's super important and showing the residents that we're out there and getting that positive feedback is important.

Steve Morreale: 9:48

So, sean, as a leader of leaders and certainly first we have to manage. You have to manage the day to day or you delegate that management, but you still have to make sure that things are being done. But as you get the opportunity to lead and you're leading other people, you're leading lieutenants and sergeants. I trust that one of the things that you feel your responsibility is, and that of lieutenants, is to develop leaders below you or amongst you. And the first question would be do you think that leadership can be taught?

Sean Reilly: 10:17

I do. I do believe it can be taught. I think some people this is one of those. I go to a lot of leadership classes and that's one of the questions that comes up quite frequently. I think some people are natural at it, right. They just naturally engaging personalities, they enjoy engaging people. They're not afraid to step out in front of their peers and help lead them in the right direction. But I do believe that with mentorship and coaching you can bring someone up that has the capacity mentally, in their brain power, to also get those skills to help lead. And I think a lot of it comes down to confidence. Be confident in what you're doing and portray that confidence to those that you're leading and that you'll lead them in the right direction.

Sean Reilly: 10:58

I find one of my biggest roles in this police department is to have the next generation of leaders ready to take over the police department. When I leave, when Chief Lester Baker leaves, someone eventually is gonna step up right, we're going to leave. This is one of those. This is an infinite game. It's not a finite game. Policing it's infinite, so it doesn't end Someone's gonna take over.

Sean Reilly: 11:18

The worst part of my legacy in Parliament and I could probably speak on behalf of the Chief with this is if we leave it in the wrong hands. So that's a legacy builder for myself, even in the Chief, to make sure that the next lead is the deputy chiefs and chiefs of the framing of PD are ready to take over and move it even better than what hopefully it is today.

Steve Morreale: 11:35

We're talking to Sean Riley And he is one of the deputy chiefs at Framingham Massachusetts Police Department in what we call Metro West. It is probably about 25 to 30 minutes away from Boston. Framingham State University exists there And there are a number of organizations and businesses that thrive in Framingham. Of course, there's restaurants and there's a mall and such, so it's a good size city. What I'm curious to know is as you evolved and moved up and were selected to be a deputy chief and now you are in charge anytime you step into the next role. That takes some time to acclimate. Maybe you get a little bit of training, maybe you're on your own, but ultimately you're in meetings at a higher level and you're running meetings. Take us into the meetings that you run with your crew, i think efficiency is probably the biggest thing I try to keep.

Sean Reilly: 12:27

In a meeting, there's always time for we'll call it water, cool talk and getting to know the men and women you're working with. I think that's a vital, important part of any meeting. But I think time is important And at this level, i find that we are in a meetings a lot, so the meeting itself has to be efficient And I try to keep an agenda for every meeting. What are the things that I want to accomplish during that meeting? I always look at previous meetings and notes What have I done and what do I need to check in on? So it's important for me to not only give the feedback from my perspective, but, more importantly, i want the feedback.

Sean Reilly: 13:01

Especially, i meet a lot with the lieutenants. I want their feedback And one of the things I always say to them what can I do better for you? I always, always ask that in every meeting, cause my job is to give the men and women the tools they need to do their job. I can't make them happy in their job. That's truly, i believe, a personal thing, but I want to be able to say I gave them the tools and the information they need to do their job. So I always ask that question And I try to keep a very strict agenda to keep their time, you know, super important, but my time is important as well. So I'm very, very organized in that sense with meetings.

Steve Morreale: 13:40

So in meetings. what I'm curious to know? obviously, the agenda is the agenda and trying to move out. here are the things that are happening. Here's what city halls wanting, here are the complaints. Here are the things we're working on. Here's what we need to do. A car is down, body cams are coming out, all of those kinds of things. But ultimately, do you, or how do you, engage others in the process, so that you are not the unilateral decision maker, but that you're collecting information in certain circumstances And feedback? obviously?

Sean Reilly: 14:17

Yeah, i think feedback's important. There are times where in a meeting where it's no, this is happening, this has to be done and this is why You know whether it's coming from me directly or it's coming from the chief of city hall. You know there are times where in those meetings where I say, no, this is the priority and we've got to get this done. And then there's other times where I say, hey, give me your feedback.

Sean Reilly: 14:40

What do you think about potentially this movement? Maybe it's personnel movement. I'm thinking about adding an extra couple of officers to the midnight shift or vice versa. Or we're thinking about making a downtown unit that specifically deals with quality life issues downtown. What do you think of that? What do you think the admission should be? And then you know, those are things that myself I can bring back to the chief and we can formulate a plan, if that's kind of what you're asking. I think you know it's very interactive, my meetings that way, because I think you know multiple heads in the game is far better than one, because there could be things that I think are the right way to go, but some will say yeah, and you might not want to do it because of this reason.

Steve Morreale: 15:24

So you got a new lieutenant coming in. I suppose they report to you. They've just been a sergeant, They've just been promoted and in they come, and you and the chief, but at one point in time to you and the lieutenant, I'm assuming what are the pieces of advice that you give to the lieutenant as you get them ready for the next responsibility to the next level?

Sean Reilly: 15:47

I think the biggest thing I would give recommendations I would say is you know, yes, your job does change And you haven't been in this field and you move up to say the latter people go, oh, you've changed. Well, yes, you have changed. Your responsibilities and duties as a, say, a sergeant to the lieutenant absolutely have changed. And take those responsibilities seriously. Listen to the men and women. Get to know them. You know everyone. You know we deal with some very dynamic people. Get to know what their issues are.

Sean Reilly: 16:23

We can disagree in the room together when we're talking, but when you leave, it's one mission and one statement. You may not agree with everything the chief's office wants to do, but it's incredibly important that when you leave, that you fulfill the mission of the police department and you are the voice. Don't go into the roll call and this is one of the biggest things that was a pet peeve of mine. Say the chief wants, so it's. No, we are going to do X, y and Z.

Sean Reilly: 16:57

And I said because you as a lieutenant, especially in the framing of police department, you're either a shift or a bureau commander, so you're overseeing in sometimes small police departments. You know the midnight shift, for example, the lieutenant might have four sergeants and 18 police officers. That's a lot of small police departments. So they have a big responsibility And I think, one voice, one message. We can disagree and we can even argue in these private meetings I don't have a problem with that. But when you leave that's one of my biggest pieces of advice don't divide the house. It's one of my biggest pieces of advice.

Steve Morreale: 17:37

Yeah, that's great to hear. So an old guy like you has been at this for a long time, has experienced from a couple of different places, and I know that you just graduated with your master of public administration from that Framingham State University. Talk about that experience Going back, being humble, being willing to learn more. How did it help you? How did you adjust to going back to school?

Sean Reilly: 18:07

It was a great experience. First and foremost, i consider myself a lifelong learner, so my learning, i guess journey has been not very linear. I guess in the sense of what and I get a lot of people share my path right. But and what I mean by not linear is I graduated from high school, went to UMass, boston. That was my first stop. I really didn't like it. I wasn't the greatest of students. I wanted to be a cop or I wanted to join the Marine Corps. That was kind of like my mission in life. So I left and I joined the Sheriff's Department at the time.

Sean Reilly: 18:44

It took me, oh man, probably about 13 years, i think, to finally graduate my bachelor's degree at Weston, new England College, and it was a lot of off campus stuff, it wasn't on campus. And then I took quite a break and I decided myself and the chief actually this was a dual effort We got together and we were like you know what we need to go back for our master's degree, and this was in probably November, december of 2019. And we signed up during the master's public administration program at Framier State University. And then COVID hit Yeah, Right, when we first started our very first class. So it was a very online learning platform, but I learned a lot from the classes I was in And it opened my eyes. Because you're dealing, you know, as you know, when you're dealing with nothing but law enforcement, in that perspective, all the time, you can get very jaded and singularly focused, and I think that hurts police officers when it comes to even our street work, because we can get jaded and sometimes in a negative way.

Steve Morreale: 19:51

So being able to It's almost like I don't mean to interrupt, but you almost look like you have blinders on and you need to take those blinders off. You need to have better peripheral vision.

Sean Reilly: 19:59

Right and listen and gets back to listening to other perspectives. You may not agree with it, but listening to other perspectives. So the masses program getting to and I was one of the old guys in the program, but that's all right. But listening to some of my younger colleagues that were in different professions And most of us were in the public realm because that's the program you're in But hearing those different perspectives I think really helped me and it helps me today do my job Because I try to think of the big picture when we're making decisions Now. Certain things that we make decisions on really critical, you have to make a decision right now, but a lot of what we do up in the chief's office is, you know, looking long-term. So getting different perspectives in this program masses program really helped me with that a lot.

Steve Morreale: 20:49

So that's very interesting thought. I've written a few things down, but what you just said triggers this in my mind that when you're at the top or near the top, while you have the responsibility as the patrol bureau Commander, you have the responsibility through your people, through your colleagues, to handle the day-to-day. But someone, including yourself, at the deputy chief position, has to have the long view, and that's a lot of what you're, i'm sure, you're talking about. Okay, we've got this, we set that up, but now, well, let's talk about the next month, let's talk about what's coming up in six months, let's talk about where we are in a year. And I know that that takes time when you go from the lieutenant's position to a captain or a deputy chief's position, to understand your new role.

Sean Reilly: 21:37

How did you adapt? I always kind of had that. I'll be honest with you. That was probably one of my strengths when it came to maybe becoming an administrator. A lot of the roles I had throughout my career. I dealt with the chief's office quite frequently And some of my mentors were in those positions. So I always kind of learned that, what their role is, and I try to explain that because I was never. I was lucky, but they never the chief's office never explained it to people what their true role is And I think that's something that, as my role now is, i try to push that down to the lieutenant and the sergeant level, saying, yes, i get to wear this fancy uniform now, but I'm really not a street cop anymore And I'm accepting of that.

Sean Reilly: 22:18

My job is, like you said, looking long term. Where are we today? How can we improve on processes? How can we change things that aren't working? One thing in law enforcement that I've learned in 30 years we hate change And we don't want to admit that maybe we're going in the wrong direction and we need to maybe shift a little bit, and I try to look at it that way all the time. It creates more work for me, but I think that's important. We need to realize that we are an industry that needs to change with the times and what the public wants from us.

Steve Morreale: 22:47

So let's walk down that road. What are the things that are being worked on now? Look, Lee Singh, as you know, and certainly I know, has had a couple of black eyes, if not a couple, a whole bunch of black eyes, And, unfortunately, when things happen in other jurisdictions, we're all painted with the same broad brush. Yet your men and women have to go out on the road that same night and deal with people and deal with issues. The night that George Floyd died and the weeks after with riots. They had to go and they had to still wear the uniform, be a target of sorts and yet do their job. How do you talk them through it? How do you keep them focused on their job? and try to not be distracted by the noise.

Sean Reilly: 23:26

How do you communicate to them that they still have our trust, that they have city's trust? We're lucky in Framingham. We overall have a very supportive city council. We've had two mayors the current mayor and the past mayor that have been very supportive of us. I know if the chief was on this call and I'm going to use the George Floyd incident our mayor at the time was Mayor Yvonne Spicer, who was a black female And I know her and I can say that she was incredibly supportive of the police and she communicated that.

Sean Reilly: 23:53

And I think by communicating with the men and women constantly showing up at roll calls saying you do have the support. Yes, this is a rough time, but you have our support. Continue to do what you do each and every day. We cannot control these other actions around the country, but they do impact us. So remember that when you deal with the public, they're looking at us the same ways that tarnishing of the badge. So you need to show that the framing him police department do it the right way every single day And you do have the support. So that was one of the biggest things that myself and the chief was constant communication. You have our support. Continue to do your job. You're doing it. Well, just go out and continue to do it, that's good to hear.

Steve Morreale: 24:32

You know, a little bit ago you said something that again sticks with me And I think it's a very, very important element of policing, and that is that you as an administrator get the work done through other people, and the communication that you're talking about is really important. I wrote a few things down here that play into that. Relationships become important inside and outside. I wanna talk about that, but I was just reading a book, as I know that you continue to read Trust and Inspire, and old Covey book is now putting out Trust and Inspire, and I think the basis of relationships is about earning trust and developing two-way trust and inspiring others. This book could be very valuable both inside the agency but outside the agency, because police departments have to continue to build relationships.

Steve Morreale: 25:14

You and I have talked about this before. I don't really want you driving by. If you've got a little bit of time, stop, shake hands, say hi, talk to people. How else are you going to earn that trust? But how do you drive that? How do you drive that through to say, as busy as you are, you always are gonna have some time to stop and meet somebody and, in essence, make a friend for the police department.

Sean Reilly: 25:36

I think super important is that they see the command doing what we're asking to be done Leading by example, leading by example.

Sean Reilly: 25:44

I pride myself as someone that I'm not as a do as I say, not as I do, type person. If I ask you to go out and engage the neighborhood, guess who's gonna be out there, walking right beside you? I will be there with you. The chief will be there. This past weekend, the chief and I. As you know, steve, these positions are kind of very political Once you get into the chief's positions and there are certain events you need to be at, certain events you should be at.

Sean Reilly: 26:08

So there was a Juneteenth celebration on Saturday. Myself and the chief went. We went and played clothes, not in uniform. It was because we went to a couple of community events and a young black man said we'd like to see you as not police officers and be in not just regular street clothes, humanize, humanize ourselves. And I took that to heart And you know what, and that was a learning experience.

Sean Reilly: 26:28

Now I love being a cop, love it. I take great pride in it. I took that young man's what he said to me and over the last several weeks I've gone to several community events, one recently where I went and shot in a T-shirt with my wife and just showed up and people were kind of shocked. But little things like that. And I try to show that to the men and women that we need to show that we are human beings as well and build that trust and open ourselves up a little bit, get to know the residents, get to know the business owners. So one of the biggest things, if I could just kind of go back a little bit, we used to get in trouble a lot. Oh, the cops are hanging out in coffee shops and everything else And I said listen, i will back you up Now. I don't want you hanging out in the coffee shop an hour and a half.

Sean Reilly: 27:07

Or for the whole shift Right but I will have your back if you're in there in a business having a cup of coffee with the business owner, getting the pulse of the neighborhood, because that's what I want you to do, because when the call comes in, you're gonna leave and go answer that call. Get to know people that you're trying to protect and serve.

Steve Morreale: 27:23

We're talking to Sean O'Reilly, and Sean and I had the opportunity to travel to Ireland a few months back because the Framingham police was one of the first in the Commonwealth to begin a co-response program, and it continues to purge and become a very important or an integral part of the police department. But I wanna talk about that co-response and your experience as you grew through it. It's been 20 or so years that you weren't been involved, so you must have been either a young officer or a sergeant or a lieutenant involved in it.

Steve Morreale: 27:54

And let's go back to the period of time when it first started Your first guttural reaction.

Sean Reilly: 27:59

Yes, when I think about when you ask that question, my first and I'm smiling because my first reaction is I picture Sarah, dr Sarah Abbott in her great English accent, showing up in the police department 20 years ago. I think we actually just hit the 20th anniversary back in April. So, yes, we're not 21st year of co-response And I was a young officer at the time. I was a patrol officer when this was first introduced by Deputy Chief, then Craig Davis, and she wasn't Dr Sarah Abbott at the time, but Sarah Abbott came in and they created this program That the officers at the time we kind of looked around the room and like what is this? Who are these people coming into our world? So that was like the initial reaction. And again it goes back to what I was saying earlier right, and Sarah did a fantastic job with this. She was very slow, she was very engaging, she was a perfect person to start this program because she took it slow and built trust.

Sean Reilly: 28:54

I always told other agencies that try to build this program from the start. You can't just force it on people. It has to grow like any relationship, communication and build the trust first. It's a crawl, walk, run type program, cause you are inviting people into our world that we don't historically let in. So my initial reactions were what is this all about? But I quickly bought into the program and I'll tell you it's one of the books are going to be written about this And we're going to look fast years from now in saying this was a critical component to how policing changed for the future.

Steve Morreale: 29:26

So you're still doing it. You're still involved in it. In fact, i know that your department did something that was unique, and that was the Lester and predecessors. You were relying on grant money for this to happen And now, if I'm not mistaken, there is actually city money involved in it so that you can continue it, which is so unusual, which indicates that you are now recognizing the importance of having civilian staff to help you do the job, especially with the rise in mental health. Talk about that.

Sean Reilly: 29:54

So the city has bought into this program where they are even, like you said, they're backing it up with their wallet, which is so, so important, because a lot of times you can't depend on grants forever. There's a potential that the grant could wash up and not be funded. And then what do you do? And I think as a police department and as a city, we've decided that this is critical work and mental health is probably one of the biggest things that we do on a day-to-day basis.

Sean Reilly: 30:20

Even the simplest call of going to a 14 year old or 12 year old kid stolen by, there's a mental health component to that call. That is a critical issue for that kid. That could be the one bite that they own, that they will never see again, and that kid is in distress, having a mental health we'll call crisis. So mental health is very involved in almost every single call we go on, and having a civilian staff person that is a master's level clinician with us to even deal with something as simple as that not only helps that person maybe hopefully get over it and move forward, but the cross-pollination, i like to say with police and clinicians is evident at the framing of police departments. Our officers have naturally become more adept at dealing with mental health calls. It's become so ingrained in our culture in having a mental health clinician there. Our officers have become better at dealing with mental health calls with no clinician. President.

Steve Morreale: 31:13

Biden is Because you're observing each other's behavior and then you're adapting some of the approaches that the clinician will help instead of walking in. I mean, I understand because I've been through it as you have. I'm Officer Moriely and I can I talk to you and I see a license of registration, when that's not what happens necessarily. In one way, Sean, what I'm beginning to think is it is a form of de-escalation. When you walk in and say, hey, I'm Steve from the police department, How can I help you? You seem to be in distress And if it's not me, it's your clinician. Talk about that change, that metamorphosis.

Sean Reilly: 31:41

Yes, i think, and you nailed it, it's a de-escalation. We walk into scenarios now. How can I help you? We're years ago What's the problem here?

Steve Morreale: 31:51

Exactly, i know.

Sean Reilly: 31:52

We're going in with a different mindset And I think that really changes the game And it's not soft on policing And I try to say that to officers. It's just a different approach because that person you walked in and say how can I help you? You may still have to lock them up, they may have just been involved in domestic and hit their life, but you will get buy-in hopefully by just your approach. And I'm guilty as charged. I had that cop mentality where I walked in like the big guy. What's the problem here? I'm in charge. I have morphed over the years to change And I think that happens with age and time on the job. But I think we try to ingrain it in the culture on a new officer immediately at the Framier Police Department to de-escalate situations, try not to use force and use the tools we have at our hands to commit and help them.

Steve Morreale: 32:38

Well, how many times have you shown up at an in-pass? You've shown up at a call, you've calmed everything down and in comes Joe, and Joe is just going to come in and he's going to rev it up. like you, son of a bitch, i just had it calmed down and now we're wrestling because you're just pissing the guy off. that I just calmed down. Why did you show up? Isn't that true?

Sean Reilly: 32:54

Yeah, I can think of a couple of things. I know, I know, I know.

Steve Morreale: 32:57

But I'm assuming that that is happening less and less and less today, based on training and setting expectations 100%. Yes.

Sean Reilly: 33:07

I don't think we're human beings, i don't think 100% go away Right, and I say this all the time. We're human beings, we have faults. It will never always be perfect, but we strive for perfection And, i think, make it cultural, continually push down the message of what we're trying to do as a police agency And that way the other men and women know, when they come in every day, that, yes, our ultimate goal is to protect people, service them, get them the help they need, but at the same time, keep the residents of the city of Framingham safe. And if that means someone has to be locked up, well, let's do it. We can do it in a dignified way, without going hands on all.

Steve Morreale: 33:38

Well, it sounds to me too like this is the perfect place for an emotional intelligence to be talked about on the police department, because if you can control your emotions, if you can understand that it yes, it seems like this is an attack on me as a police officer, when really it may not be. If, again, if you change the mindset, they're just venting and they're bullshit. And yes, it may be a little uncomfortable I'm in charge here but to say hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, no, let's comment down here a little bit, let's talk. I mean, i'm not here but to help you, you made a call and here I am. I'm certainly not trying to preach by any means, but that emotional intelligence piece comes in. You've been in plenty of training And obviously you've talked about that, perhaps in your master's program. But how does that weigh in? What are the tactics or approaches in field training that you are talking about, so that it can become, as you said, a part of the culture, a part of the expectations of every officer?

Sean Reilly: 34:28

I think the emotional intelligence piece and I think as law enforcement we're looking at that far more now than ever It plays an integral role in dealing with people. We're in the people business. We start right out of the gate. When someone gets out of the police academy and they come to us, They are introduced within the first three days to our co-response clinicians. When they're out on calls the clinicians will even ride as a third person in that field, training officer's car.

Sean Reilly: 34:51

Oh, wow, So they get to know them and they are ingrained into the culture immediately in how important it is to use our clinicians For not only the mental health calls. It could be maybe a death notification bringing them along, go to any various calls. And I think one of the biggest things when I was a lieutenant in charge of our field training program and now as a deputy chief, the new officers have realized that the clinician is part of our team. They may not be sworn but they act equally as important as they are with the batch, and that includes the janitor who's sweeping your floors. They are part of the overall team in the police department. They play a role as a team. We've accomplished on mission And I think that's what we try to ingrain in our offices at the framing of police department from day one.

Steve Morreale: 35:34

So we're talking with Sean Riley He's a deputy chief at Framingham Massachusetts police department And we've been talking about co-response and we've been talking about emotional intelligence. We've been talking about the issues that are going on. There were a few questions that I wanna ask you. The first is how your agency uses incidents that happen in other places as teachable opportunities to try to put your officers and staff in the mindset about what you would do differently, how you would avoid that from happening. Let them vent, perhaps talk about that.

Sean Reilly: 36:04

Let me use the Memphis most recent incident where those officers beat that man to death on a traffic stop. Basically We use that as a way. I think I sent out an email Within a couple of days of what's the videos were released for the importance of supervision. And just because you get rank and become a sergeant or a lieutenant doesn't mean you disappear. It's actually more. You become more important role to supervise those that are under your command. So we sent off an email to the supervisors saying the importance of supervision to be at very hot calls, so to speak, calls that can get them very emotionally charged We've all bet on them and to take charge. So we use that as a teaching moment. The George Floyd obviously that's a big one that really changed a lot in policing, moving forward in police reform. We use all of these as teaching moments. You're always on camera. That was one of the chief bakers biggest things. I remember him as a lieutenant on his roll calls. He would always say and he does it now, even as the chief if he jumps into a roll call, remember, you're always on camera. So teaching moments that you're being watched The other things that we've kind of looked at is continuing education.

Sean Reilly: 37:12

Yes, you have the police academy and you have your in-service training, but one of the biggest things to prevent burnout is educating yourself. You may not think you need it, you may think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but by going and educating yourself leadership training, or maybe it's accident reconstruction, whatever your expertise is, or wherever you want to improve yourself getting those days away from, say, the mundane day-to-day operations of policing can help improve who you are, can make you a little bit healthier, i think, the more you're educated. I think that's a big deal. I think that's why up here in the Northeast we do pretty well, because I think we have a pretty educated police force here in Massachusetts and I think the importance of training is critical. So that's some of the things that we use from around the country as to what can we sacrifice, but what can't we sacrifice more important to keep our offices safe and make them the best officers they can be on a day-to-day basis when out in the public eye Great.

Steve Morreale: 38:05

One question that is in my mind is what the Framingham Police Department and you and the command staff are working on to improve. And so I'm sure in some of the meetings, as you look forward, someone whether it's you or the chief or your colleagues as deputy chiefs are saying what are the things that we have to work on, what are the things we have to pay attention to, what are the things we should catch up on to do a little learning and then see what we can do to apply and improve What's on that list? How does that process work?

Sean Reilly: 38:31

So I'm gonna use a very specific kind of situation we're dealing with. It involves some mental health components, homelessness components, quality of life issues in our downtown area. It's always been an area of concern with residents, politicians, the police department, and we're always willing to change the way we do things. So the chief and I, actually on Saturday, we're in the office talking about what can we maybe do to improve our approach to downtown. Now that's the specific issue. but what can we do to improve response, maybe city-wide, when it comes to very certain specific problems? We're in the early stages of creating perhaps a community impact unit that can deal with very specific issues, hot spot issues. They could be calls for service, they could be crime related, they could be mental health related or just quality of life issues.

Steve Morreale: 39:19

Well, it could be proactive too, rather than being reactive, in other words, We know there's a problem here. Get some people down there to get to know what the issue is.

Sean Reilly: 39:26

Correct And I think, as police officers, i try to push this down as well. Sometimes some of the issues that we deal with are not police issues, but we do drive Actually, most of them probably right.

Sean Reilly: 39:37

Right, but we drive the train. The public depends on us to come up with solutions. So I want the men and women that hopefully will be in this unit eventually to understand that they're communicating with the DPW, the Board of Health. So we're trying to in essence we've been doing these things for years We're trying to create a more formalized structure.

Steve Morreale: 39:56

You were at that event, as I recall, at William James College when we were listening to the as a captain from the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. Is that correct, where he was talking about his homeless unit and how, in essence, they've virtually made no arrests but they were constantly helping the community and those in need? Correct, you react to that, right? I mean, i did too.

Sean Reilly: 40:15

And I think that's what we're. And I'll tell you I'm going to give some kudos to Gloss of the PD. I've been using some of their literature as well. They have a community impact unit that was put together to deal with some homeless and opioid issues. But yes, that captain that spoke talking to folks up at Gloss of the PD. Now, obviously we have to create it specific to Framingham, but that is something that we are, to answer your question, looking at and trying to develop, to get better at what we do We do a pretty good job of it but to formalize it And hopefully try to resolve some long term issues. Whether it's downtown, it could be up on Route 30 in Framingham, it could, and it could pop off anywhere in town.

Sean Reilly: 40:53

Their issues may just all of a sudden be created in a certain location in the city, so this isn't necessarily a downtown issue. That might be our spot where we stop.

Steve Morreale: 41:01

Right. So it sounds like it's a little bit of pop right Problem-oriented policing And it certainly is community policing. We haven't talked about that. What's your view on community policing and how important it is for your officers and for your town?

Sean Reilly: 41:12

It's funny. We've always said to our community that community policing is a department-wide initiative. It's not a unit, it's a department-wide initiative. Every single sworn person is a community policing officer. Everybody from the chief down. We all need to be in the community. We all need to engage.

Sean Reilly: 41:30

Now this particular unit that I talk about, that we're hopefully going to start up, is going to be dealing with very similar to what Detective Bureau does. They're looking to maybe stop long term issues or investigate issues that maybe a everyday patrol officer can't deal with. So, yes, will they be out in the community in a more engaged way as their primary mission? Yes, but that doesn't mean every other officer stops doing what they're doing. So community policing is vital. It builds that trust and that communication that we talked about earlier on, partly important from a top down perspective. But again, we always say to our officers just because you're a community engaging community policing doesn't mean you don't hold people responsible and still be a cop. Deal with policing issues. We don't want people to de-police. But that message sometimes gets very missed. People go. They don't want us to be cops anymore. No, that's not true.

Steve Morreale: 42:18

You can still engage the community, but do your law enforcement responsibilities, done so many trainings, and that's what you have to try to convince people. Look, we are not ever taking away your ability to arrest, but it's your discretion as to when and if you choose to exercise that, and you're the only person those who are sworn officers that have that right. But certainly makes life a lot easier when you have more friends than enemy.

Steve Morreale: 42:41

Correct That accurate. So let's talk for a few minutes, as we wind down, about your experience, our experience in Ireland. I will set it up by saying our colleague, andy Lacy, who's a superintendent at Angar de Chicana, is in Limerick. I spoke to him actually the other day. He's back in Limerick and Henry Street, and one of the things that they did, based on a report for the future of policing in Ireland, was to say we need to deal with the mental health issues in Ireland.

Steve Morreale: 43:06

And what I found fascinating, as I know you did too, is that there was such a willingness to go and look elsewhere as to what's being done and to customize a program for the guard based on the experiences of the United States, of Canada, of Northern Ireland and of Scotland And we were able to observe all of those, and you were one of the presenters for the Framingham model. What fascinated me about this so far is the gathering of evidence and the planning and the singular steps that were taken to try to make this program go Just blew my mind. I'd like your opinion of that.

Sean Reilly: 43:43

This is a career highlight of mine And the core response is passion of mine And it's something that I want to be involved in when I retire from policing and made my quote second career I definitely want to stay professionally involved at the higher education level with this because I really do believe in it And I think it's that important. And having the opportunity to meet Superintendent Lacey I think he came we went over there last year in 2022. So he came over in late 2021 and presented to us at the early stages of what they were doing and then drove around with our officers, came over to the Framingham Police Department And I got to know the gentleman and his passion to bring this back to the country of Ireland And then being able to go over there and present was incredible. It's my home country, so to speak, life changing for me.

Steve Morreale: 44:29

To be honest with you, Well, excuse me, excuse me, Sean, I do remember us at the hotel and you barging in on a wedding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Remember that Here these big blokes are there in full uniform and we were at a wedding and these people were just like there's cops here from the States. That was an amazing moment too.

Sean Reilly: 44:48

It was really. It was amazing to see the buy-in from the highest levels of government in Ireland that were there to listen to us as a group not just Sean Riley, but us as a group from international perspective to really listen, because policing in the States is totally different than policing in Ireland, And their willingness to listen to what we had to say and incorporate some of what we do into their model is something that I don't. We try to express it to the men and women of the police department, saying what you are doing here is having international implications in other parts of the world And it's hopefully going to grow. So it was an incredible experience. I've become friends with Superintendent Lacey. We do communicate, especially during the Celtic season.

Steve Morreale: 45:31

Yes, I know.

Sean Reilly: 45:34

Yes, it was fantastic. And to see that the progress that they're making and I'm fascinated at how they're doing it, because they're doing it there Obviously their form of government is very different than ours And they're doing it on a national scale rather than a local scale It's pretty impressive And I think we can learn something from that as well. Yeah, that's no question.

Steve Morreale: 45:52

Well, as we wind down, we're talking to Sean Riley and he is a deputy chief in Framingham, massachusetts, in the greater Boston area, we call it the Metro West And as we wind down, i would be curious to know what you see your legacy to be when you retire. Whatever that is, how do you want to be remembered as a leader? It's so much more important. I am using the term it's all on you, but it's not about you. Tell me what that means to you.

Sean Reilly: 46:17

I want to be remembered as someone that had as much passion the day I started to the day I left. That's one of the things that is exhausting 30 years into this career, because I think I still have that passion. I want to be known as someone you know what, when people look back and say what was Sean Riley to you? He cared, he cared about the men and women that worked with him and all for him. That I had emotional intelligence, that I cared about the community, that I policed and took great pleasure in overseeing a police department as part of the team of deputy chiefs and chiefs. You know we're all replaceable, but I think my legacy is I. He was a good guy, good cop, i enjoyed working for him and he showed me as much respect as I showed him. I think that's very important, that you know he was always respectful. I think that's where I would want my legacy to be So.

Steve Morreale: 47:07

somebody, and probably more than one person, took you under their wing and helped appoint you in the right direction. Do you see your role the same way now?

Sean Reilly: 47:14

Oh, 100%. My goal is to take the men and women that I see and I have a couple of patrol officers specifically that pop into my head that I try to mentor and say you're going places here Now, i may never see it in my career, but you continue to do what you're doing And you are the next generation. There's sides and lieutenants that I grew up with in this policing environment that I try to hopefully encourage them. So, yeah, that's, it's not about Sean Riley, it's not about me, it's about the next generation that takes over. So good to hear that.

Steve Morreale: 47:45

Well, sean, i'll give you the last word your thoughts and reflection on what this interview led you down the road and what message you want to leave with the listeners about policing and about A, the importance, the value of policing and where policing is going.

Sean Reilly: 47:59

So I want to thank you, dr Morioli, for having me, because I think you do incredible work and when I got to meet you many, many years ago and now we've in the last year and a half we've become, i think, closer and you bump into more frequently in our professional paths, and it's been fantastic to be here with you today. I think the most important thing that I would leave with the professional audience is what we do matters. Many times I go to police trainings and one of the questions a lot of instructors ask nowadays is how many of you would recommend this profession to your loved ones, and it horrifies me when I'm one of maybe two or three hands that go up in a classroom. We need to say this job is important. We have a vital role in society and what we do matters. What we do matters.

Sean Reilly: 48:43

I think I actually posted something recently. I reposted something from the Irish police, their academy, and I think I titled it. They had something in there and I said what we do matters And it really does. So this next generation of cops we need to mentor them. We need to tell them that, yes, this is important. What you are coming into is critically important for society.

Intro : 49:01

So that would be my message Hold your head up.

Sean Reilly: 49:04

Yeah, do we deal in rough times? We absolutely do, but what we do matters.

Steve Morreale: 49:07

That's great. What a great way to end. I appreciate your time and energy and you know we'll be together again quite soon. So we've been talking to Sean Riley. Thank you so much for being here.

Steve Morreale: 49:16

Thank you, sir, as always, So he is from the Framingham Police Department and that's another episode of the Cop Duck podcast. I'm Steve Morielli, coming into from Boston. I want to thank you for listening again and please share this If you gain anything from it and let us know if there's anybody in your view that we should be talking to somebody who's innovative, somebody who has passion for the job, and certainly been talking to Sean, who demonstrates that. Thanks for listening and stay safe.

Intro : 49:43

Thanks for listening to the Cop Duck podcast with Dr Steve Morielli. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Western State University. Please tune into the Cop Duck podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.