Vulnerability, Courage, and Transformation: Kristin Ziman Former Police Chief's Journey to Inspiring Leadership

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 5 - Episode 106
Ever wondered how vulnerability and courage can transform a person's life and career? Join us for a captivating conversation with Kristen Zeman, a former police chief turned speaker, facilitator, trainer, and keynote speaker, as she shares her journey from law enforcement to transcending her policing background and inspiring others.

Listen in as we explore Kristen's honest reflection in her book, "Reimagining Blue," her approach to leadership, and the importance of understanding the audience and culture when speaking to a police department. We also discuss the qualities of true leadership and the significance of providing the necessary skills and tools for those you lead, as well as the need for continuous self-improvement and reflection.

Finally, we touch on critical topics such as mindfulness, leadership, and accountability in policing, the importance of preparedness in addressing mass shootings, and the power of writing and podcasting. Don't miss this insightful conversation with Kristen Zeman as she shares her experiences and wisdom on vulnerability, courage, and continuous growth, leading to profound transformations in our lives and professions.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro : 1:41

No, your audience is what we're talking about, right? So okay, we'll get started in a minute. Anything you'd like me to cover?

Kristen Ziman : 2:03

Welcome to the cop doc podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The cop doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And Now please join dr Steve Moriali and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the cop doc podcast.

Intro : 2:33

Well, hello every and everybody. This is Steve Moriali. I'm coming you to from Boston, boston, massachusetts, where it's a little rainy, and I'm headed down to Florida, naples, florida, and talking to Kristen Zeman who tells me it's pretty steamy down there. Hello, kristen.

Steve Morreale: 2:48

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are.

Intro : 2:51

Thanks a lot. So we've got you back for a second time, which is just amazing. I'm watching you from afar. I follow you on LinkedIn. I follow you your book I didn't even look at it just yet, because that's right There. It is right over there. It's right over there.

Steve Morreale: 3:06

It's not the first thing you look at when you wake up in the morning, steve.

Intro : 3:14

So I have, i have the book and I and I read it. I love what you have done with it. But we've already talked a little bit about the book. What I'm really interested in for the listeners is to talk about your, your move from the book to all of the things that are happening for you.

Intro : 3:34

I'm sure, when you release this book, that this was a dream. I know how hard it is to write a book I'm working on one myself But I also know how honest this was. That's called reimagining blue and Kristen. If, for those of you who don't know, kristen Zeman was the former police chief in Aurora, illinois, and is now a Speaker, a facilitator, a trainer, a keynote, she tells me, and so let's talk about that. You release the book, you rewrote the book. We talked about Feeling uncomfortable while you were in uniform to write certain things, but this breath of relief to say I'm not bound by stepping on toes anymore, but if you know what I'm saying, so and you, we talked about that a little bit ago, but you rewrote the book from a different perspective and with a different voice. Talk about that.

Steve Morreale: 4:31

For so many years. I told my officers that you cannot get to courage without walking through vulnerability first. And I sat down and I wrote that book, the first rendition of it, and it was disingenuous because it didn't talk about my Trouble childhood, that that truly offered me the resilience, you, that I have now, you know, in policing and in adulthood, and I felt as though I was writing this book that was safe. And When I say disingenuous, it's because I was trying to get officers to you know, embrace the vulnerability We understand in our profession And that we have a very high suicide rate. And that's because we have been brought up in law enforcement. To quote suck it up And take the pain. I've even said it.

Steve Morreale: 5:24

I mean, i was born to a Marine police officer who raised me Never let them see you sweat, there's no crying in police work.

Steve Morreale: 5:33

And I I adopted that mindset and I can even think of times where the words came out of my mouth Hey man, if you can't handle it, get out.

Steve Morreale: 5:44

And and I realized in in my later years in policing That it's not serving us well to teach police officers that so they carry around these burdens and You know the thousand tiny cuts that they feel and the things, horrific things that they see.

Steve Morreale: 6:01

So, having said all of that, i was trying to change a culture of policing and realizing that writing the book, when I wrote it safe, without you know Really, without you know any controversy or without telling my truth, i realized that I was being very disingenuous, and so I scrapped the first version and I wrote the truth that not only was my dad My hero, but he was also a raging alcoholic, and how that truly made me who I am today. And I talked about things that are difficult to talk about in our profession, you know, like the George Floyd murder that sent ripples across the nation, like you know second amendment, and you know the right to bear arms and what that looks like from the perspective of perspective of shooting victims. And so, instead of playing it safe, i decided to just be real, to speak my truth and hope that it resonated with people and, as it turns out, it did.

Intro : 6:58

Well, that is without question and as I'm listening to you and I hope those who are listening to, that's inspiring to me. Kristen, i know that wasn't your intention, but the reason is, you know, as I write this book on leadership And I'm trying, you know it's it's from a prachidemic point of view, it is from my police background, but now sort of married to My scholarship or my scholarly work, but that becomes so. So many scholarly writings are so antiseptic, they're not real there. But I understand evidence base, i understand all of that. But what you just said Just opened a wound in me, and not purposely, but to say why can't you talk about the way you will raise with your father, that you haven't talked to your father in years and years and years and some of the things.

Intro : 7:49

Because I think you know That's an interesting point. I think in some ways I'm a late bloomer to education, but I still feel like I know this is not about me, but I still feel you just opened me up, but I still feel like I've got so much to offer But so much to still learn. And one of the things I said just before we started is, as you're being called upon to facilitate Trainings, now to be a keynote. You don't have as much time to interact with the, the group in front of you, except afterwards or maybe a few questions after. But do you feel that, as you go out and you do these things, that you learn from the audience too? that?

Intro : 8:39

your, your world Opens wider because you stop and listen to what their concerns are and their issues are Oh my gosh.

Steve Morreale: 8:46

Yeah, that's the reason I do it and I love what you said and I just want to unpack that for a minute before I answer your question Is you said you're always learning, and I can remember a police officer who had about, i think maybe 19 years on, and He looked at me one day and he said, man, there's nothing that you can teach me that I don't already know about this profession. And I remember thinking how sad that was, because I think that's the key to Longevity is being curious and the genuine Understanding that there is far more that we don't know than than what we do, and so I applaud that in you that you take that on, that you know curiosity and learning, and it's something that, as we know, the term lifelong learners Is is not metaphoric. It's something that we have to continue to do. So, to answer your question, i started out Facilitating, you know, eight hours of work And I loved the back and forth interaction, and then, truly by no plan of my own, i started to get invited to deliver keynotes, and the reason that I learned so much from delivering keynotes is I don't just get hired to go and spew a keynote and to leave.

Steve Morreale: 10:01

I spend a lot of time with the conference organizers or the organization And I ask what problems are you facing, what challenges are you facing? And some of them are new to me and it affords me the opportunity to learn, to do some research on that very topic And some of them are tried and true, the same issues that we have in policing and, interestingly enough, i have transcended policing and I'm not just talking to law enforcement anymore. I want to interrupt you because I note that and I think it is so unique and I know you've been to trainings in the past when you were police chief and sometimes You go outside and you're the only police representative never mind police chief and they're curious about you.

Intro : 10:45

and now what's happening is and I actually wrote this down in my, in my sort of prenotes was that leadership And the struggle to lead and motivate and create and unlock the juices of the people who work with us is not unique to policing.

Intro : 11:08

It is about people. It's people who are earning a living, people who have intellectual curiosity, people I understand there's a lot of. there's some slugs in the world, but there's those people who you're talking to are, i suppose, like you and me. They are trying to improve their lot in life and by improving their lot, they're working to improve others. And so I believe that when you walk into a different audience, they're curious about the cop in you, but they're also curious to know how did you maneuver and navigate and how do you deal with stressful situations And how? and listen. one of the things I think about the job of a police chief is so difficult and so many stay in their lane, meaning all I'm going to do is run this department. I'm going to do the day to day. I'm not going to think long term, but that's the job of the leader Moving the organizational forward.

Intro : 12:09

So I'm sorry, but I'm curious to know your reaction to those things.

Steve Morreale: 12:13

Yeah, and well, that's a mistake is a leader to you know? only look at the day to day functions. I mean, that's the whole concept of leadership. The thing that we are trying to ascend to is that level, high level leadership where you can be a visionary. And so, yeah, these, these conversations I've been having and it's so interesting to me because I didn't see this coming either, so you know, just the keynote.

Steve Morreale: 12:36

The reason that I believe that I'm making an impact in these keynotes, despite them not being so much of a back and forth classroom curriculum training, is the feedback that I get either right afterwards in the conversations and naturally I give everyone my email, my contact information, and the conversation continues, and that's where I have a lot of learning is they're coming to me to give them advice and I'm learning so much from them, and that one on one capacity after the keynote. So I know that the impact is is rippling, it's ongoing for both of us and so that's been really the most surprising thing. Now, pivoting out of law enforcement was very interesting. Someone and it was because of the book someone read my book outside of the profession and said I would love for you to come speak to our nurse anesthetist conference. I had to practice anesthetist.

Intro : 13:28

Yeah, it's a big word.

Steve Morreale: 13:31

And it was so great. It was a, you know, in Pennsylvania and it was a group of medical practitioners, and I made the joke right at the onset of the keynote, that hey is this? I thought this was a top conference. I must be in the wrong place. But the truth of the matter is is the principles of leadership and the struggles that we all have in our professions. They transcend, you know, and it really doesn't matter what profession we are in there all in alignment.

Intro : 13:59

Those I want to show you something. I don't know if you can see that, but one of my notes is transcending police leadership. So we're in, we're in some pataco here because that's exactly right. That's what I was saying, that you know, leadership is leadership is leadership Trying to improve the day to day life, try to improve service delivery, try to improve motivation, try to improve so. So let me talk about this leadership. This is a question that I have for you, so put put on your, put on your thinking cap. What are the elements in your mind of a true leader? what are the things that a leader has to do to be successful and to have an impact on the organization and its people?

Steve Morreale: 14:44

Yeah, i mean what it's a? first of all, it's a mighty mission, because when you think about the leader of any organization, you know your bottom line is what you deliver, what services you deliver, and for some organizations that's, you know, profitability. For law enforcement, it is the bottom line. For us, the parallel is reduction of crime, case closure so people feel safe to live, play open up a business. So not only do you have your external stakeholders that you have to satisfy, but then you have your internal stakeholders and that's where the leadership qualities come in. And let me tell you I want to just throw a caveat out there you're going to want your money back, but I, i still struggle with leadership. I really genuinely believe that it's that mountain that we continue to climb and we never actually reach the summit. That notion of level five leadership is something that I've always fallen short of attaining, but it's something that I want to continue to try and slip and fall and get back on the mountain and keep going. But the qualities, to answer your question, first and foremost, you have to love your people more than you love your position, full stop. There are so many people that move into a position of leadership that aren't leaders at all. They're there for status, they're there for reputation, they're there for resume, and if you don't love your people more than your position, then you're not going to be affected. So it's interesting is, the qualities of a good leader are that of which makes us good friends, good partners. You know that trustworthiness, that transparency.

Steve Morreale: 16:21

But for me, true leadership is the understanding that you have to get work done through others. When you get to an executive level, you don't do the work anymore, so you have to inspire, but not only inspire. If you just have a leader who inspires, that isn't enough, because you also have to have leaders that provide skills and tools for their people. Whatever that is in your profession and law enforcement, we have to train our people. That is what that is leading with. Love is making sure that our officers have the training necessary for them to run into any situation presented to them. That that is a part of loving your people is giving them the skills and then the tools, and we often forget about that.

Steve Morreale: 17:03

I talked to so many officers in conferences that say I wish my boss was here listening to this, because they that they don't give us what we need.

Steve Morreale: 17:14

We're out there, our computers don't work and all of the things insert, you know, whatever you know, it is broken, a system, a process, so so that's why it is such a mighty mission is that we have to not only, you know, care about our people. So there's an emotional aspect to it, and if you're just that manager and and and providing the skills and tools, that's still not enough, because you still have to care about your people. And so, you know, i tell people we cannot raise our police officers the way our supervisors raised us, because it's a different police department, it's a different generation, and so we have to be in tune to the whole individual, and that goes for any organization. You better care about your people and where they want to go, what their aspirations are and that's where I believe we begin to tap into great leadership is those who care about their people and who still have the competency to get the work done through others.

Intro : 18:10

You know there's so many things that goes from my mind and one of the things you just talked about. As you know, here you are talking to a group of people say, wow, i wish my boss was here. Here's what sometimes happened and it happened to me. It's happened to me over and over again and no, i know a number of my colleagues to you go to a training And you learn new things and you get excited. You go back and many people, whether it's in a police department organization how was it was great, good, get back to work. Don't care what you learned, don't care why. Don't want to spread that. We paid money for you to go to this training, but it's in your mind, but that's where it is. We don't ask you to spread it. We don't ask you if there's anything that you learned that's different that you would bring back. And I think that's a big mistake because so many times, you know, i've been able to say in trainings I remember being in Virginia at one point in time and was my first supervision training for the Drug Enforcement Administration is 40 of us from all over the world And remember the administrator, the big shot, coming in and saying you know, thank you for investing in us.

Intro : 19:08

That's right. But If we, if what we learned cannot be implemented, this was a grand waste of time and money. And and I can tell you this, kristen, i remember one of my bosses saying, coming to me one day and saying you know, steve, i can't help but notice your people like you, and that's not what we want from our leaders. And I said really that's interesting. So I can't get along.

Intro : 19:36

So this is an old timer telling me, the new buck, trying to do something different and take a different approach. And I said, well, really I can't use his name, but Why aren't you here when I'm chewing somebody out? Why aren't you here when I'm calling somebody out on their behavior or their lack of initiative or whatever it is? but what I will tell you, sir, is that when I'm done, i don't paint them into a corner. I try very hard to say to them OK, let's learn from this, go back and do better. In other words, you got to give them hope. And he was saying well, that's just not, i just don't like what I'm seeing up here. And that really was my demise, because the old timer couldn't see the value in relating with people.

Steve Morreale: 20:22

Absolutely, it's most definitely part of the equation. But listen, what you said there is just this knowledge without application is nothing. You can go through a class, you can go to a seminar, you can sit through a keynote and you can become inspired, but that inspiration is fleeting. And so every time I speak to the audience, i ask myself what do I want the audience to think, to know, to feel and then to do? I want them to walk out with action items. And what you just said just happened to me at a conference I was just giving in Illinois, or a keynote.

Steve Morreale: 21:02

A gentleman walked up to me mid-level management in his police department, and he said I was given the opportunity to come here and listen to you speak, but my boss told me that I need to pay it forward to go and reteach what I've learned to my division. And he said could I have your PowerPoint? I said oh my gosh, because I will share anything that I have anytime I speak. You can have my PowerPoint, you can have it all. And so his job, and I loved that. That. The supervisor said you go, we're gonna send you to this. Now you come back, pay it forward, let that be a force multiplier. And we don't do that enough. That's great if you send somebody to a conference, but if they don't bring anything back, then what good is the organization? Because we know that a rising tide lifts all boats. And then the last thing that you just said there about instilling hope this is kind of a new phenomenon And I'm actually kicking around this being my next book is you mentioned the word hope, and it's so interesting, because when people say hope is not a strategy, that's true in some sense is that we can't just try to close our eyes and hope for the best, most definitely.

Steve Morreale: 22:16

And that's where that action what do you want the audience to feel? and then to do So, you have to have action, but without hope, you're without inspiration. And so the new conversation that I've been having and it's what I actually delivered to the last few conferences is called optimized with optimism, and it is genuinely that. It's not that toxic. Positivity is everything is great, everything is gonna be fine. No, sometimes you are given a shit sandwich And you're gonna have to choke down that sandwich, but hope and optimism is the idea that I have the power to make tomorrow better than today, and it's a personal choice to invest and to commit to making me and my organization better. That constant improvement And that is the key to truly great leadership. And well, not even in a formal position of leadership, but just even in a position in your organization where you just better yourself and you know that you are part of the choices that you make. That makes yourself better and the organization.

Intro : 23:25

Well, sometimes what I find is I love the book that Mark Watt wrote on leading through questions, and, but I was just thinking that as leaders, sometimes what we're doing is simply planting seeds, and not all seeds will germinate, but that's why you have to throw an awful lot of seeds out there And letting people go and asking questions what do you think about that? What do you think here's the problem? What do you think What I think we're looking for? policing is like this and going into academia, completely different for me. I mean, we talk about things for three years before anything happens. Well, i'm not sure, and it's frustrating to me because I come from a world where it's a can do, make it happen, don't take no for an answer. Find a way to make it happen, and so planting seeds becomes important, and that's what I suggest to supervisors and managers plant the seeds and see what will germinate them, you know. Water them, let people be a part, let people buy into the organization, let people suggest things. What you just said making it better in the future which is that paying forward that you said? I absolutely love, certainly, the conversation. You look, kristen, what I said to you in an email many, many months ago and that was we were driving down. We had you back in September.

Intro : 24:51

By the way, we're talking to Kristen Zieman, the author of Reimagining Blue, the former chief of police in Aurora, illinois. We're talking to her on Naples, florida, right now. When you were on the last time. It just happened to hit as I was driving south with my wife to Hilton Head And I think we were. I remember this vividly.

Intro : 25:13

You know how sometimes what you're listening to whether it's music, whatever you it plants you in a particular place. I remember driving through Charlotte and I said do you mind if I listen to the podcast? Like little self aggrandizing. She said no, not at all. So we listen and we listen and we listen. We're halfway through now. You know I have three daughters. We're halfway through and she said pause this for a minute. What? how do the kids get this? I want them to hear what Kristen has to say, because I know, i know, i know, because you are so inspirational, you're not afraid to be honest and forthright and open And, as you say, vulnerable, and that's a big thing And it's it's an, it's a missing link in many places. But thank you for that, because the girls and so many other people who have listened to it thought so much of what you have to say.

Steve Morreale: 26:06

I can't even think of a higher compliment than I want my children to listen to. this, that is, i have no words other than my cup run of the over. Thank you for that.

Intro : 26:15

No, it's no problem, and I said a little bit ago too, with everything you're doing there, you are should be in line for a TED Talk, and I'm going to help you try to figure out how to make that happen, because I think it's on my bucket list to do a TED Talk, but I think you are ripe for a TED Talk Because you are hired as my publicist and you give me that TED Talk and I will be forever indebted to you, Doc.

Intro : 26:39

No trouble whatsoever. You know, i was looking too at at the picture of you as a young officer and so you have matured amazingly for sure. But I saw that on your website. For a moment, tell listeners how to reach you and how to find that website of yours.

Steve Morreale: 26:57

Oh, hold on, I'm still unwrapping that.

Kristen Ziman : 26:59

You have matured, that's a very wow, you are very astute at the language.

Steve Morreale: 27:05

Yes, you have aged. You can find me at christenseamancom. That's where you can see what I speak about. You can get a link to my book and you can reach out. Drop me a note or you can email me at christenseamancom.

Intro : 27:22

So thank you As we continue. One of the things I saw you were writing that being a leader and certainly we talked about the last time that you said we had mentors and tour mentors and I love that and you've written some blog items on that. But one thing you wrote that struck me that I think is valuable to other people. That's not sometimes, but most times a leader has to make people uncomfortable. Talk about that.

Steve Morreale: 27:49

So I was at Harvard and I like to pause there for just a minute. I was at Harvard for three weeks and I had a professor that looked at us and he uttered these words leadership is about disappointing people at the rate they can absorb And I had not become the chief at that time. I was an executive management but not the chief, And I remember thinking that this guy was out of his mind, that it's the opposite of what I think of leadership. Leadership is a visionary. It's about taking people where they ought to go but where they may not know how to go alone. It's all of the inspirational things, standing alone sometimes and being ridiculed, but I never thought about disappointing people. And then I got in the big chair as chief and I made my first decision a policy for the police department And 48% of the people were pissed off about it. And in that moment it all came flooding in And I thought, wow, that professor Marty Linsky knows exactly what he's talking about.

Steve Morreale: 28:59

Is that leadership is much as we like to think about, leadership being the hopeful, visionary inspiration, and that is most certainly a part of it. If you're going to inspire action, you have to be inspirational. But there is another part of leadership that makes it not for the faint of heart. It makes it for the courageous leaders that have to have hard conversations with people, that have to sit them down and say listen, I'm going to pass you over for promotion, I'm promoting the other individual, or I'm not going to put you in that specialized unit. And here is why. Or I have to hold you accountable, I have to suspend you for this infraction.

Steve Morreale: 29:42

That was a violation. That is the uncomfortable part of leadership And we don't think about that And the whole notion. Should a leader be loved or feared? The answer is neither, Because if you're loved, it means you're not holding people accountable. If you're feared, it means that you're gaining performance through the head and not the heart, And people will perform because they're afraid of you. Leadership is about being respected, which means that you have to make hard decisions, And as long as you are making those decisions for the right reasons for the organization, then you're going to have to be comfortable with making others uncomfortable, And that's why leadership is hard.

Intro : 30:25

Yeah, well, you know. I just wrote down the word accountability as you were talking about that, and it strikes me as extremely odd that in policing, we who are in uniform are not afraid to hold people accountable, but very often we don't want to be held accountable ourselves.

Kristen Ziman : 30:42

And that's Oh with thought it out.

Intro : 30:43

Isn't that crazy And what is uncomfortable. imagine being back as a surgeon, i presume, or even my role as a chair of an academic department with a unionized faculty or a unionized police department that instantly you're trying to stop something you know, intercede in someone's behavior or the way they handle it, or the way they talk to somebody, and instantly the cop wants to say to you hey, sarge, what do you got for proof, i mean? and it makes it so difficult because they can invoke their union rep when really what you're trying to do is do it informally. but many people say I'm taking this to the union And it makes it very hard to hold people accountable. in a lot of ways It's an uphill battle, your thought. I saw a little smile come.

Steve Morreale: 31:41

I think that if you ask me what the most challenging part of the job when you ascend to a chief's position, it's just that because you're dealing with officers who are very knowledgeable about the law And they Gathering evidence.

Steve Morreale: 31:57

It's right they impose that on others, which makes them very good at their jobs, but then it makes it very difficult for a police chief to hold an officer accountable. And I want to make sure that I underline, bold and italicize what I'm about to say, and that is police unions. All unions are beneficial. I was a part of the police union and was afforded all of the benefits that they fought for, and I am so grateful. But when it comes to discipline, the issue that I have is protecting the officer at all costs, and I can give a great example of unions that work with management.

Steve Morreale: 32:41

I have had several union presidents throughout my tenure, and the one that I appreciated the most was the one who walked in my office and said listen, i cannot defend this officer And it is my job to go against you and to very verbally, loudly and publicly fight you. But I want you to know that this is the kind of officer that we don't want amongst our ranks. But we are going to defend him or her, and I understood that, that they have to make sure that we're following policy procedure. I had another union president that was just the opposite of that. That. It was when it all costs. It didn't matter what the officer did. I mean, we even had an officer who was a sexual predator and he was terminated, and the union fought to get his job back and succeeded, and I'm just astounded by that.

Steve Morreale: 33:35

And so, once again, i appreciate those, and I hear all the time there's nothing more than a good cop hates, is the bad cop right? And yet I didn't see that when you're trying to fight for the job of a police officer that you know should be stripped of his badge And that is where I take issue And so I think that there is something, and not only that, but gosh, now we're getting kind of in the weeds here, but then you get an arbitrator that comes in. When the case goes in front of an arbitrator and those arbitrators are chosen a lot of times by the union we can strike one arbitrator, and now you've got an arbitrator that comes in and what we call splits the baby. So they try to make both sides happy And it's just. It's a flawed system If we genuinely want to get people out of police work that do not honor and that tarnish our badge. And so there's some tweaking that we have to do there And we all have to be on the same page, no matter what our positions in the police department.

Intro : 34:41

Well, no curveball intended, but it's very, very important to talk about these things as we just did, and I appreciate it. And you're right, i'm a member of the union too And there's plenty of reasons for me to be pleased with what the unions do, but sort of protecting those who don't need protecting. It makes it very hard to hold people accountable in many ways. Let's switch gears a little bit. I'm gonna stop, actually I'm gonna stop for a second And I'm gonna start with switching gears. Can you give me one second? I got a quick. I'm gonna take a quick break.

Intro : 35:13

I'll be right back and then we'll chat about where we're going. okay, we got it. Thank you, you I am back. Thank you. I want to talk about your list of 50 things. I want to talk about the hollow bunny podcast. Are you doing that? Are you doing that a little bit, because I see that it's been a few months?

Steve Morreale: 36:37

Yeah, we're on hiatus because, you know, as you know, trying to schedule people and even just us between our editor or our podcast producer and myself and chief Moyer man, it's like scheduling is insane. So we're we've taken a break, but we're going to get back at it.

Intro : 36:55

Okay, so we're going to talk a little bit about that. I'm just looking at my. I want to talk a bit about. I'm going to be asking you about your involvement in the Evaldi team. I'm going to be talking about training. I just read something. So I just read something. I want to. I want to get you to talk about training, even national standards, whether there should be such a thing, and and go from there and some of the things that you did around your, your list. Okay.

Intro : 37:25

So, let me make a pause and then I will come back and say let's switch gears.

Steve Morreale: 37:31

Okay, okay, just one thing that you've all day review is still going on, so I can't talk about it other than that I can. I can talk about the 10,000 foot overview, but I can't talk about it.

Intro : 37:41

No, no, no, no. I understand that, but but the fact that you became involved in it, that's which is which is pretty interesting, because, again, it, it, it. it relies on your experience with the mask shooting that you had in your town, and but it also does. it's good, it's another, it's another check mark for you, but it's a lot, but it takes time away from other things too.

Intro : 38:04

I know, i know, okay, all right, so give me a sec, we'll pause So I'll be able to cut this. So we're going to switch gears. We're talking to Kristin Zeman. She's in Naples, florida, today. She is the author of reimagining blues, she is a keynote, she is a facilitator and she is an author, writer, blogger and on and on and on. One of the things I want to talk about is it seems to me that, whatever the reason that you're not afraid to commit to paper clearly the book started you in that direction but you're not afraid to write. You write about things You post in on LinkedIn. You talk about your experiences And tell me why. What's the motivation to commit to paper?

Steve Morreale: 38:58

So for me it's cathartic, it's a form of therapy. Writing journaling has been something that I have done since I was a child, and little did I know that that would transcend into writing for my local newspaper. When I became a sergeant, i actually reached out to them and said Hey, can you give me a column and I'll talk about police related stuff and topics? And that turned into an editorial, which was such a gift. And you know, i not only that, but think about what we do as police officers. We tell a story in a report, and that was, believe it or not, all the officers are like Oh, i hate report writing. That was my favorite part was to gather all of the information and then tell the story of how it unfolded, and so I actually appreciated that time. And then from there, i started a blog after I stopped writing for the newspaper because I got busy.

Steve Morreale: 39:54

So for me, writing is therapy, and what I've learned about putting things out into the world, especially as it pertains to law enforcement, is that people really appreciate the, the why behind the do And that's often what I tried to do in my column and in my blog is explained to people that you know what you see, you know, in an officer's actions or the headline isn't the entire story. You know I liken it to. You know it's just the tip of the iceberg. So let's delve into why we do what we do. So for me it's not just it's that selfish part of it being therapy for me, but it's also the educational piece. If someone can take away and learn something about why we do what we do, and, you know, if someone can take away from the lessons that I have learned over my career, the failures and the successes, the epiphanies, well then, isn't that what we're supposed to do for each other is just feed each other with knowledge so we can take it and apply it to our own life?

Intro : 40:55

Well, and certainly you do that. One of the things that that I read today and I had read it originally, but I looked at it again today you, you created a list of things from 2022 when I thought what the hell is she doing? And actually I love some of the links that you provided. That's a lot of work putting those links in there, But here's a pen I like and here's a coffee maker that I like, And this is what I decided to do This time. I'm going plant based and sleep and on and on and working out and moving to Southern Florida, And it was quite interesting. Again, it was just a list of things that that you were. What you were doing was reflecting on the past year, And I think the power of reflection is so important And we don't do enough of that. So talk about that list of 50. And I presume you're already starting the list of 2023.

Steve Morreale: 41:47

Absolutely So what that does is it's a learning experience. So I started to really take note of the things that that helped me optimize my performance and my creativity. And now that I'm not a police chief anymore, that I'm, i'm consulting with other organizations, i'm speaking, i want to build presentations that make people not again, not only inspire them, but but pursue action in their own lives. That's what. That's what I want. And so how can I tell people what to do, you know, to optimize performance, if I'm not experimenting and doing this myself? And so that those are the 50 things that I came up with that have given me the energy and the creativity to build great presentations, to pass along to people the little nuances in life. And it's funny, i just had this conversation.

Steve Morreale: 42:40

I was with a group of police execs, you know, in Illinois, and I started to talk about why I believe sleep is a superpower and in a science behind taking a 20 minute walk and their eyes glaze over. And I called them on it. I said every single one of you is sitting here because it's the stuff that we all hear, and we know what to do to make our lives healthier, but we don't do it. And that's the hard part It's, you know it's one of those things where it's easy, you know, but it's it's. It's not simple, if that makes sense. And so I just tried to share the strategies that I have learned, that make me better, and hope that maybe I can inspire someone else to.

Steve Morreale: 43:19

You know, take on some of those small changes, and it's about incremental changes in our lives, if we can, you know it's. Take sleep, for instance. You know how many times do you hear you can sleep when you're dead? or you know, i pride myself on the fact that I only get five hours of sleep And that's all fine, except that it's actually going to knock years off your life. I mean, we've learned that the science is there, and so you know, i have this little order ring.

Steve Morreale: 43:45

I do not work for this company, but it measures my sleep. I wake up every morning and it gives me a score. It measures how long it takes me to fall asleep, and you know I'm getting into the weeds here, but it's just one of the things on my list that I realized helps optimize my performance When I have a good night's sleep. I am absolutely at my best to get on this podcast and to talk to you. My thoughts are clear, my decision making is better, and so that list was just. Hey, here are the cool things that have made my life better. Take them or leave them.

Intro : 44:15

I love it, i really do love it, and thinking of an aura ring now. So, so you are. As you're talking about that, it seems to me that we don't always spend a lot of time thinking you know finding some time.

Intro : 44:32

I know you're on planes and awful lot When I was on planes. Sometimes it was the most productive time I had because there was nobody calling me. There was, you know, my mind was clear. I'm a guy who constantly has a notepad everywhere I am, and sometimes so I and now, or your journal it's the, it's basically the equivalent writing the things down that I'm going to forget. Forget.

Intro : 44:56

Or I sounded Massachusetts without my heart forget, and things that I have to do and things that I've heard, things that I want to learn about, and I think it becomes so important to expand yourself to say, okay, here's where I'm at, but where am I going to be in the future? In fact, part of what I'm suggesting now is that's sort of the approach that a good leader has. I'm thinking about today. I got that out of the way, but what's next? What should I be doing? What should I be learning? What should I be reading? Right? Who should I be talking to? What do you think?

Steve Morreale: 45:34

I think that every single one of us needs to commit to constant self improvement, and the way that we do that is by looking and it's where that list came from is by looking at you. Know you, steve, your 2023 self? you know how are you going to make improvements for you the next, in the coming year, in 2024? These are not resolutions, so please do not confuse them with the things that you started out at the beginning of the year, because resolutions are just, they just don't work, and that's been proven. But it's the small incremental changes. What can I do ever so slightly to better myself? And, as we know that those changes turn in, those small incremental changes turn into great leaps over time.

Steve Morreale: 46:20

And just by saying you know what I'm going to omit this from my life, because it does not serve me, whether that be a person or a thing, and then just genuinely saying that's what I'm going to do, and doing that makes your life better.

Steve Morreale: 46:36

Sometimes it's addition by subtraction, you know, and what thing can I do to make me more productive, to make me a better parent, a better partner, a better friend, a better leader? And, and you're right, the same thing that we do for our personal lives is exactly what we have to do for our organization as leaders is what can I do with this organization that is going to take it to the next level? But the problem is is we get so caught up in comfort and complacency You know, i know how to do this and our lives become just like Groundhog Day. You know we're on autopilot and that's where we get caught up in the routine And we don't take ourselves out of that. You know that mundane and challenge ourselves And sometimes man, challenging yourself to do something new is really hard, it's uncomfortable, and yet that is the thing that changes everything.

Intro : 47:26

You know it's interesting. I talked to somebody the other day on the podcast and one of the things they said at the end and it was I don't mean to sound self aggrandizing, but he said Steve, what I find for me was you're not afraid to talk to anybody And but because when I do that, when I reach out to somebody, i know you do the same thing, so I'll reach out to somebody. I'm looking for people who are posting things that are not self promotion, but they're thinking about moving, you know, their life or their organization forward, and and I reach out for them and say, hey, would you be interested in talking? And ironically, you travel to the other. You travel to other countries, as I do, And I'm not afraid to stop into a police department and say, hey, i'm Steve And I was a cop and with the EA for a long time.

Intro : 48:15

Can we talk And though and you know that experience once somebody knows that you served. You are one of them.

Intro : 48:23

I don't care, i've been in Russia. I don't want to go there now, but you know, after the fall of the iron curtain, i was there And it was fascinating to see, you know, people with the same responsibility done a different way, but that they were accepting of you or I, because we served And and you're making friends along the way and you're learning your cure. I think it goes back to what you said a few minutes ago And that it's that curiosity, a little humility or a lot of humility that you don't know at all and that you don't know what you don't know, and confront that.

Steve Morreale: 48:58

Yeah, and think about what you just said, not only just in our law enforcement world, but that curiosity in talking to people, talk to strangers, talk to everyone that you can and get their perspective, especially in this nation that we live right now that is so divided. Lean in, because, as we all know I don't know who to attribute this quote, but you can't hate close up And when you lean in and you say, wow, i actually have a completely opposite belief than you do. Tell me why and how you got there. I'm so interested. And then when you hear someone's story and why they believe the thing that they believe or the person they support, you're like, okay, that, actually that makes sense. I may not agree with it, but I understand, and so just leaning into that would, honestly, it would help us. Even in our profession.

Steve Morreale: 49:51

I tell officers, whenever you get in a rut, whenever you find yourself in the middle of your shift and you are just pissed off, again, the thousand tiny cuts the last call. They berated you. Your supervisor is not supportive. Do me a favor and go out. Seek out someone who's just taken out their garbage. Stop, hey, how you doing today.

Steve Morreale: 50:16

Walk into the gas station and have a conversation with the clerk, have a conversation with somebody who's just going in and buying a cup of coffee, and what will happen is it will rekindle your faith in humanity because you will have a conversation with someone who's not trying to harm you. And so that is how we, that's how we tap back into that humanity and it energizes us. And you know, or go do something for someone, get in that coffee line and go buy coffee for the person behind you. That's gonna release all the great happy chemicals, the serotonin you know, and it's going, it's gonna make you feel better. So get out of your rut. But the only way that you can do that is through deliberate choice. You have to be purposeful and you have to say I am going to go seek out something positive and you can do it.

Intro : 51:05

You know that's interesting. One of my experiences in the classroom is that there are so many faculty members that choose not to open conversation because there's third rail possibilities in the classroom. I don't want to talk about that person because he is a black man, he is a black woman, and I say just the opposite. I want to understand your lived experience. I want the rest of the class to understand. you know why do you feel that way? You know, how do your parents feel about police officers? Have they been a negative or a positive? Let's understand why.

Intro : 51:42

And you know the old, the old coffee piece seek first to understand, then be understood. And so I take what's the word that I want to use? I take a risk by having those open conversations, whether they are in the classroom or in my office, with a faculty member or, before that, with somebody who worked for me. Why did you do that? What were you thinking? You know, what do you think you should have done? You had so many learning opportunities by asking questions and sort of putting people in check to say and Kristen, may I say this One of the things that I think in between the two of us, i hope we're sharing ideas with listeners about having conversations with people that are difficult conversations, but not making them one and done.

Intro : 52:32

Sometimes, people that you call in and you're going to call out, you have to give them some time to wrestle with what you said, to think about what you said, not to be defensive, but to have another opportunity to talk about it. I want to talk to you about something that I've heard that does not conform with our expectations, but what I want you to do is think about it, ruminate, and then we'll come back to it again.

Intro : 52:59

What do you think about that as an approach?

Steve Morreale: 53:01

I absolutely love that In the moment.

Steve Morreale: 53:03

As we know, sometimes we leave a meeting or a discussion and we say one thing or we don't say anything, and we get out of that and it starts to ruminate and we start to process it And we have so much to say afterwards, and so I love leaving that room for follow-up.

Steve Morreale: 53:20

And also I want to point out that some of the best growth experiences I have had in my life have been through criticism, that we take that as a bad word, but criticism, when it comes from a sincere place of caring and wanting you to get better, is such a gift. And I've had supervisors call me in and say, listen, here is where you are and I want to bring you up even higher. Can I tell you how to get there? Are you open to feedback? Or the way you handled that situation maybe could have been better. Can you hear me out? Yes, absolutely, and what a gift. And so I think there's a big difference between when we try to just put our thumb on someone and ridicule them versus truly coming from a place of sincere caring and wanting them to improve.

Intro : 54:12

Thank you. This is such a wonderful and wide ranging conversation that we're having. I very much appreciate your point of view.

Intro : 54:20

And I think in your own way, that you are certainly innovative. that's the understatement, But I think that there's so much that can be learned because you're not afraid going back to vulnerability, to be honest and to say your point of view. are we perfect? No, I'm still learning. I've been studying leadership for 35 years. I still don't understand it. I still make mistakes, but I still get up, get back on the horse and try again. Everybody is different the old situational leadership thing. So I wanna talk about a few other things.

Intro : 54:54

As I was getting ready for today, I went down a road, the rabbit hole, as you have the hollow money. But I went down a rabbit hole and I found a document that I had never seen. You may or may not have seen it, but it's the Mass Casualty Commission from Canada from 2020. Came from Nova Scotia when there was that mass shooting, And there is a nine or 10 significant chapter report that came out, and one of them had to do with policing and police training And what it was saying was that it's no longer necessary to train police officers as if they're in the military And that there's some change. there's some change. afford or should be change training from the militaristic point of view to more evidence-based and more humanistic and more reflective learning.

Intro : 55:49

And I see this in other countries. There's an awful lot of reflection. We don't do that in this country And I'm curious to know if you had a magic wand, you were king. well, you wouldn't be the king, you'd be the queen. If you were the queen for the day, what would you say needs to happen to police training to try to meet the challenges of today? I'm talking about basic training, recruit Academy training.

Steve Morreale: 56:20

Right. Well, what we are asking of our police officers is so complex And I'll use the whole militarization of police and how there has been such a movement to dissuade that And then insert the mass shooting in Nashville and where those officers walked in and confronted the shooter and the incident was over. Not one person after the fact complained about the militarization of policing after that incident. So I bring that up to say. This is that we want our police officers to be guardians of the community, which means that we need to learn how to talk to people, all people, all different walks of life. We need to be able to problem solve, so sometimes that means being creative in our problem solving. We need to be able to show vulnerability, compassion, empathy, so all of those are qualities that we look for in individuals. But then you have incidents where officers did not perform To the level of their tactical training, and then we ridicule and denounce police officers who did not perform tactically. So the answer here is that we can't just be guardians, we have to assume warrior ship as well. This is precisely why police officers are.

Steve Morreale: 57:51

They often get the phrase from people that say I could never do what you do. That is correct If you cannot run towards gunfire and put your life on the line, then you should not be in law enforcement. So we have to train our police officers for all of it, and that's why it takes such a special human to become a first responder. So, to answer your question, in the academy and this is the problem is that we only have so many hours, we only have so much of the curriculum And they have to get in all of the things. So we have to build in diversity, we have to build in problem solving, we have to build in de-escalation along with the tactics, so that they can run towards things and take care of business when it needs to be taken care of, and it's a giant undertaking. And so, yeah, that's the utopia is building a human being that 98% of the time is just walks around with compassion, empathy, problem solving And where, in that split second, they can transform and they can run into someone holding an AR-15.

Intro : 58:59

Well, so what you're saying is obviously and we know that very well from our experience and from our training, both of us that it is not a one-dimensional job, it is a multi-dimensional job, and that's what makes it so difficult. I think And you know it's interesting as we're talking and I'm looking at my notes What we talked about a moment ago was about pausing and thinking, and yet I remember now it may have been my trigger you talked about decision making and the importance of sitting. Still you wrote about that. So let's sort of firm up that conversation about thinking with your thought about sitting still.

Steve Morreale: 59:39

Yeah, so it all can be utilized in the field And let's talk just about law enforcement is that? there are those moments, and it's so interesting when we call mindfulness, mindfulness, stillness and silence meditation. I love how cops have an automatic aversion to mindfulness training. Right, they think it's so granola, and so I always joke with cops. It's like okay, you know what, let's just call it tactical breathing. And they're like, all right, i'm in. So it's just funny, you just change it.

Intro : 1:00:08

You know, if there were tactical in front of it. Yeah, it's all moment-clature. Yes, yes, yes, go ahead.

Steve Morreale: 1:00:14

Yeah, but think about it in the field. We're taught especially when we're injured. in the field, if we're shot, what we do is we take those rescue breathing those breaths, the six seconds hold and blow out, and what that does is it slows your heart rate down, which means that your blood won't pump as fast. So that will create that's a survival technique that every soldier learns. It's what police officers learn in the field. Let's take that very same notion and let's apply that to that call that you are about to run into where your adrenaline is high. You take that moment and it is literally just six seconds. It's just. you breathe in, you think about my tactics, you go back to your training, but if we don't take that pause, then we will run in and we will just be erratic. So taking that split second pause And then, when we have time, that's just. that's practicing it in the field when the defecation is hitting the oscillation. But then you practice that.

Intro : 1:01:12

I love that term. I can sit with that. I love it, go ahead.

Steve Morreale: 1:01:16

But now let's take that and let's extend that. I have to go into a meeting and I have to have a hard conversation. Let me sit with this for just a moment and let me take about five minutes of quiet to get my thoughts together. So I'm calculated in my response, in my words. Let's take that a little further. when I'm trying to make a decision in my life, I'm gonna sit down and for 20 minutes I'm going to think about what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna be quiet and I'm going to see what thoughts come in my head. So take it however you need it in your life and allow it to help you make a decision, whether it is a split second decision or whether it is a major life decision.

Intro : 1:01:57

We're talking with Kristen Zeman and we're winding down. I so much appreciate where this conversation winds, but ultimately we're talking about policing and leadership, which I think is so important, and how can we do the job better, how can we work with other people and help people along? One of the things I'm saying an awful lot lately is leadership. It's all on you, but it's not about you, it's about the people, and I think that changes everything. You are involved in blue courage. You are quite the advocate of mentoring, but not forced mentoring, and I appreciate that.

Intro : 1:02:39

I just talked to a chief, Amanda B Ann, who is the chief in Winchester, virginia, and she joined an organization called Chief and it's not chiefs of police, it's chief Chief executive. You're aware of that And she caught me with that when she said that. And there are so many admirable women who are taking the helm of police agencies and changing policing for the better. I think the 30 by 30 is a great idea to bring more women to policing And, as I had said, i come from an era where there were no police allowed, no police women allowed, until I went into the army and we ran the first.

Intro : 1:03:27

I think 10 women as.

Intro : 1:03:28

MPs because it was not allowed until 1975 when I became an MP. I'm not saying I was resistant to it, but it was unusual for me. But things need to come further, but they've come a long way. However, you, because of your experience with the Pratt company shooting, which led to five employees being killed and some of your offers being wounded, you've become an advocate for trying to stop or pay attention to the potential for mass shootings and reduce that. You also have just been appointed by the Department of Justice to serve on the Uvaldean team review. Just talk a little bit. I know that you can't say too much about it, but it seems to me that they're using the experience that you've had with helping to figure out what happened there in Uvaldean and come up with some other approaches maybe not better approaches to these kinds of situations.

Steve Morreale: 1:04:32

Yeah, well, in my shooting in my city where five officers were shot and five people were killed, after the incident we called in FEMA to do an objective review of how we handled the shooting, and that was so beneficial for me to have that report, an unbiased report, and that's precisely what we're doing on the DOJ team that's doing the Uvalde review, and the idea is that you take that report and others learn from it And the DOJ is doing a comprehensive report. It's not just about the law enforcement response. Our report is about the community response, the elected official response, the pre-incident training, post-incident, and so it's very I mean it's going to be very detailed and cover all of the facets. But to give a general, you know, just a topic about this is my life, you know, changed the day. It was the worst day of my professional life, and not only because of my officers being injured, but looking in the eyes of the victims' families at every funeral. And I will never forget the feeling that I had when I looked in the eyes of the mother of Trevor Wainer, who was one of the people killed in our mass shooting and senselessly murdered, and it was in that moment that I saw the shell of a human being she was, and that inspired me to do this work.

Steve Morreale: 1:06:02

It started out in my life as going around to police departments and making sure they are prepared.

Steve Morreale: 1:06:09

Preparation is key, as we have seen how every police department responds to these events of mass violence.

Steve Morreale: 1:06:18

You know they're either lauded for the way they perform or they are criticized for the way they perform.

Steve Morreale: 1:06:24

So I felt it was my mission to go in and make sure that they are prepared to answer the call when not if, but when it comes to their jurisdiction. That has since pivoted, and I realized that officers live in the response world. They don't live in the prevention world, and so I thought maybe my skills could be better utilized. Going to talk to organization about the red flags that were tripping over the culture of reporting, as that was the key factor in the workplace shooting in my city is that the shooter declared he was going to do it and no one reported it, no one contacted a supervisor, and so we see in every single one of these acts of violence that there is what we call leakage, where the shooter tells someone that they're going to do this And the gap is that no one follows through, and so that's been part of my life's work since then, not only talking about leadership and empowerment and women's empowerment, but also to talk about mass shooting, prevention and preparation Any chance I can.

Intro : 1:07:31

So one of the things I'm seeing and thinking is a good colleague of mine, jim Silver. Dr Jim Silver worked with the FBI and is working on red flags and such, and I would love to connect him with you. So you may, we may, we may, make that connection. I think it's. It's very, very interesting. He's looking at virtually every. He's not, you know, every time you see it, it must, it must get you to say not another, not another shooting.

Intro : 1:07:55

It just keeps happening in America. So we've been talking with Kristen Zeman, and one of the things that I would like to do before we leave is to ask you, i guess to have the last word somebody who is in policing, who is on the fence about taking the test, raising their hand, to be a sergeant, a lieutenant, a captain, a deputy chief, what recommendation do you have, as they, as they, sit still and think about should I do this?

Steve Morreale: 1:08:26

Yeah, well, first of all, let's take it even, you know, a step back is those people who, you know, recruiting. We need the best of the best And right now we are seeing, you know, the the ebb and flow of policing has gone on since the beginning of policing itself. You can look at different times in history. You know the civil unrest in the 60s, and then that was a, you know, quite a valley for policing, for law enforcement, and we were thought of unfavorably. And then you know, you see, 9-11, where we are at the height. Everyone loves us, you know. And so it's this ebb and flow. And after we call it, you know now, the post George Floyd era, you know we were once again in a valley and we lost a lot of people.

Steve Morreale: 1:09:11

You know not, the great resignation didn't just happen, you know, across all professions, it happened in law enforcement as well. It happened on my watch. People walked in and said I've got three years left, but I'm pulling the plug now. I can't take this anymore. And so we are now at a crossroads in law enforcement and people call it a challenge and I want to call it an opportunity, an opportunity to enter into this profession, to build back trust to earn it, and the only way that you can affect change is if you actually commit to being part of that change.

Steve Morreale: 1:09:46

And then that goes to what you just said is those individuals sitting on the fence. should I take that promotional exam? Should I put myself out there and risk failure to do it? And the answer is the very same thing is that if you want to make your organization better and you perhaps look at your leadership, because sadly, the reason that I decided to pursue leadership in my department is that I learned what not to do from bad leaders And I remember thinking, if I am ever sitting in that position, if I ever have stripes, i will never tell my officers hey, i don't want to hear from you for the next eight hours. Leave me alone. That actually happens.

Intro : 1:10:25

It happens all the time I know.

Steve Morreale: 1:10:26

Yeah, and I remember thinking if I ever got stripes, i would never do that. I would say, hey, whatever you need from me, i am here. And so I would take that opportunity to be quiet and to think about what change you can affect for positive. And remember, it's not about you. This is every level of leadership means you have to love your people more than you love a position, and so thinking about how you want to contribute to the betterment of your people and your organization. You know, you sit quietly and you decide yes, i'm going to pursue that, with the understanding that, once again, leadership is not for the week, it's for the courageous, and you have to take that on and you have to know what you're getting into. But wow, i mean, it is, i think, one of the most noble missions that we have in our profession.

Intro : 1:11:14

Yeah, so good to talk with you. You know, i think to myself just in leaving. You started with love your people and you end with love your people. And I think you know, as a part of love is caring and caring about the people you serve and the people you work for, and that's important And it's really important even when I'm teaching. Now that the students understand you know where my care concerns, sometimes my sternness because they're late, they're not, they're not performing up to standards, is because a I say I'm thinking of a C word And that's a very bad thing to say in so many ways And but ultimately the students will say you care, and if I can get them to think that I care, if I could get the people who work with me for me to that I care, then I think that's half the I think that's half the battle.

Steve Morreale: 1:11:59

Can I just retweet what you just said? because the biggest thing that we have to fight in our profession, in our classrooms, in our families, is apathy, is disengagement. Give me a person who is angry or upset. I'll take that any day because I know that you still care. Give me a person that says I'm done, i've got, i'm out of fs, to give And that, to me, is the most dangerous disease that we have to fight is apathy, and I think that that is so important that you just said that, man, just care. Just care about your people, care about yourself and your own improvement, care about your organization. And it's just dangerous when people check out.

Intro : 1:12:44

Well, kristen Zeman does a really good job of boomerang. My words back on me. In other words, you're because you're, you're tracking, you're listening, it's active listening. I can see that and it's a skill that you clearly have a very, very high quotient in. So, thanks to Kristen Zeman, i wish you the best of luck in your journey. I would really love the opportunity to talk with you again And again. You can get back, get in touch with Kristen Zeman. It's very simple Kristen Zemancom. She's got her own little website and there's all kinds of pieces of value from her writing and from her point of view, and she's working on another book. Thank you, kristen, for being here.

Steve Morreale: 1:13:23

Thanks, doc, i always love talking to you.

Intro : 1:13:25

Same here. So that's another edition of the cop doc podcast in the can, talking to Kristen Zeman, and Naples today, steve Morielli. Stay tuned for other episodes in the future. Thank you for listening. Please reach out if you have value share, but, more importantly, if you have somebody I should be talking to, who is progressive and innovative and someone you have respect for, please reach out and we'll give it a try. Have a good day, hey everybody. A few things before you leave. First, thanks for listening. I'm so gratified to see the downloads rising in the last few months, not only from the US but from across the globe. It's surprising and humbling to find students, colleagues and practitioners listening. We have a growing number of listeners in Canada, ireland, england, northern Ireland, africa, australia, new Zealand, germany and Columbia. We appreciate your time and energy and welcome feedback. Please feel free to reach out to me by email at cop doc dot podcast at gmailcom.

Kristen Ziman : 1:14:23

Thanks for listening to the cop doc podcast with Dr Steve Morielli. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Western State University. Please tune into the cop doc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.