Anila Khalil Khan: Breaking Barriers in the Police Force - South Yorkshire

TCD Podcast Season 6 - Episode 115
What if you had a peek into the life of a policewoman, a woman of color leading a team to combat domestic, child, and adult abuse in the UK? Join us as we unravel the intriguing journey of Aneela Khalil Khan, a Detective Chief Inspector at South Yorkshire Police Department. Aneela, a seasoned professional with a 20-year career, takes us through her path beginning with her training at the Academy to her current leadership role, comparing and contrasting the US and UK police systems, particularly focusing on training and probationary periods.

Aneela doesn’t just stop at sharing her experiences. She delves deeper, bringing in her research about women in policing, with special emphasis on women of color. Our conversation takes a turn towards leadership – how understanding others plays a crucial role in decision-making, the necessity of humility, and the courage to stand up for what's right. We also touch upon the importance of constructive dialogue, and how Aneela has used these principles to enhance leadership training at the South Yorkshire Police Department.

Detective Chief Inspector Khalil Khan reveals her ambitions for the police force, laying bare her hopes for the future. She shares her desire to reach out to young women and girls of color, hoping to guide and inspire them. We further discuss her research in the US, her plans to interact with local police leaders in DC and NC, members of the Drug Enforcement Administration, and ASEBP.  She talks of her aspirations to share her findings back in the UK. This dialogue with Aneela is not just an exploration of her journey but also a testament to her commitment to serve and change her community.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Cop Doc podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The cop doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morialli and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the cop doc podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:44

Well, hello everybody. Again, Steve Morialli coming to you from Boston, and today we're talking to somebody on the other side of the pond, but Anila Khalil Khan is actually in the United States. She's in Washington DC, headed to North Carolina later. She is here on a full, bright scholarship. Good morning to you, Anila.

Speaker 3: 1:01

Good morning, you okay.

Speaker 2: 1:02

I am okay. Thank you, we're very, very happy to have you on. You are a detective chief inspector at South Yorkshire Police Department and you've been doing this for almost 20 years, but you're in the United States. So I want to talk about a whole bunch of things. We'll talk about leadership, about your police department, about your experience and the comparison between what you're finding in the United States and you're still searching and the UK. So tell us about you first how long you've been in policing, why policing?

Speaker 3: 1:29

Yeah, so morning everyone. So I've been in the police 20 years. As I said, I'm in South Yorkshire Police, facing the place called Rotherham. So just a little bit background about South Yorkshire. In the central of UK, england it's basically Yorkshire quite rural but with some big cities in there as well. South Yorkshire is made up of four cities Rotherham, doncaster, barnsley and Sheffield. I live in Sheffield but working in Rotherham, and I've been based South Yorkshire for 20 years now.

Speaker 3: 1:53

Prior to joining the police, I was a student. My undergrad was chemistry and forensics and it got to a stage where I was leaving university and thinking about what I want to do with my career, where I don't want to go and it was actually my father back in the day 20 years ago said well, why don't you consider the police, see what's on offer and maybe consider going to the forensics side of policing? So I went for an open day and, as they say, the rest is history. I joined at the age of 22, chose at the university and back in the UK. What we used to do then is you had your 15 week training program and then progressed for two years as what we used to call a probation officer, a student officer, learning your trade, learning your craft.

Speaker 3: 2:33

Pretty much soon after my just under two years, I realised I wanted to be a detective and therefore sat my detective exams and absolutely loved CID work, criminal investigation work. I kind of reflected back really. I just did quite a few different roles within CID. So initially it was what we class as reactive CID, dealing with a general serious crime, complex crime, specialising to adult and child abuse. For five years they were the most valuable years, to be honest with me, most rewarding years as well and then did some projects etc.

Speaker 3: 3:05

And then was promoted to sergeant, led some fantastic team of officers, moved up to being a detective inspector and then was finally promoted in 2019, end of 2019 as the detective inspector. Now I know the ranking system between the US and the UK is slightly different, but I think when I'm comparing my rank to the US, it's between a captain and a commander. So I've got, like I said, a base in Rotherham and I've got the crime functions. They're all criminal investigation. I lead on them. I've got some fantastic officers. So we deal with domestic abuse, child abuse, adult abuse, general CID, and then we specialise in what we call proactive CID, which is your guns, drugs, violence, etc. Yes, the fantastic team. So yeah, that's a quick snapshot of my 20 years in policing.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Well, what I think is unusual for those listening in the United States, but for those in the UK and Ireland and in Europe, what is different I think you're beginning to find this out is the training here in the United States is you go into the academy 23 a week, say, and there is a wide spans between 12 and 25 and maybe 30 weeks, and then you're done and you're on probation for maybe five or six months afterwards and now you are full fledged. For you you just said you're in the academy for 50 weeks. In essence, you're on probation for three years and you have to prove yourself right along the way. You have to have boards, you have to sit down.

Speaker 2: 4:25

I suppose you have to write a journal or a portfolio to say this is what I did, this is how I handle it, this is what reflection was. Here's how I could have done it better, here's what I needed to know, and this is something I'm really pushing in the United States because I think it's so valuable because we come out of the United States in the academy. I've been through three or four of them and it is you're done. Get to work right. It's that it's different where you are. Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 3: 4:50

Yeah, it's interesting how you say that. So when you join the police, it's slightly different nowadays because there's different schemes, different methods of joining or entering into police. However, when I joined the E-Class of GCSEs, high school education, english, math, etc. And the process of joining so there's an application form, there's some testing, so it's your English writing list obviously, then your physical testing and then when you start what? Five weeks of training at the academy. Now I went away for Academy and there was a place called Durham in the UK and it's where you learn your basic policing. You love your self-deferred protection and you get to know your colleagues who you potentially will be working with. You will be learning the basics and learning how to be safe and competent and be a police officer. After those 15 weeks you then come back to your district or your force.

Speaker 2: 5:41

First of all, you just said 15, not 50 weeks. One, five, yes, Okay, my bad, I heard 50. Sorry about that, but what I want you to do, I think I'd love to see you. So we're talking to Anila Khalil Khan. She is a detective chief inspector at South Yorkshire Police Department. What I have failed to say is she's here on a full-bite scholarship and she is being hosted by Howard University in North Carolina Central University and that's where she's headed pretty soon. I've had that same experience of being a full-brider, as you'll be called quite soon, but we were talking about the police training and then coming back. Continue on that vein. You finished the 15 week, not 50, but you finished the 15 week academy and for a few years you're sort of still on probation.

Speaker 3: 6:22

So what is that like? Once you return back to your force after your 15 week, you're then working with a tutor, a mentor, and that's as your independent or your tutored phase, and it's basically putting what you've learned at the training school into practice. So you are going out, walking the beat, walking dealing with incidents like a normal officer would, but you've always got your colleague there with you who's shadowing you, examining you at the same time and making sure that you're competent and suitable. That lasts for 15, sort of for the 10 weeks Again, this is when I joined, so it's slightly different now and in that period you will then do your driving training, so what we call the blue light training, where you are able or competent to drive the police vehicles responding to emergencies, etc.

Speaker 3: 7:05

This process is over two years and, as you said earlier, in that two years you do have to write a journal it's a portfolio and hit certain criteria and say right, I have stopped searching someone, I have spoken at a, dealt with their incident, I have interviewed someone and we put case files in to go to court.

Speaker 3: 7:23

So I have put a case file in, so you have to evidence everything that you've done in that period. Your tutor then signs you off saying, yes, this person is competent and capable to be out on patrol on their own and obviously a signed off police officer, a substantive police officer as we would call. So, yeah, the period lasts between two to three years, but in that two to three years you are continually getting training. It's 15 weeks in the academy, back into the police force, 10 weeks independent patrol, but constantly if you've fed different parts of criteria that you need to meet certain sort of legislation. That thought out process I have mentioned that was when I joined. It is slightly different now. So there's different routes in the UK to get into policing. I can touch on those if you would like me to.

Speaker 2: 8:04

There's so much to talk about beyond police.

Speaker 3: 8:06

My undergrads, well for my bachelor's was at Bradford University of Bradford and that was chemistry with forensics. And then I joined the police and then, whilst I was in the police, I did my masters in criminology at Sheffield Hallam University.

Speaker 2: 8:18

So you went to Bradford and then you went on for a masters of science degree in criminology. Talk about that.

Speaker 3: 8:24

Yeah, so it was 2008-2009, I was at a place that where I was confident, capable and obviously just on my detectives exams. The thing with me, steve, is I like to learn, I like to educate myself and keep into into loop with stuff and I thought, well, I'll study for a master's degree, knowing that I was working full-time and wanted something close to home and sort of that flexibility of going into university. So I applied for a master's programme in criminology at Sheffield Hallam University and did that in 2008,. Graduated in 2009. What a fantastic, fantastic course, met some brilliant people there. So, yeah, that was in 2009. So it was a difficult year, just with working full-time, just moving into CID and studying full-time, but it was really rewarding.

Speaker 2: 9:10

Well, when we do that, it's very hard to do both and to balance. But once it's done, it's done and they can't take it away from you, right?

Speaker 3: 9:19

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 9:20

So I'm familiar with Sheffield because I've done some work with with a couple of faculty members on academics practical academics which I find pretty interesting. But let's talk about Fulbright. Here you are in the United States, in Washington. I have been watching you on LinkedIn on the things you have done, the places you have visited, the inquiries you have made, and when we talked the other day offline we talked about how receptive generally police are for anybody who carries a badge anywhere in the world. Is that what you're feeling as you go from place to place in the United States?

Speaker 3: 10:04

100%. So just a background about achieving or gaining the Fulbright. It was last year I applied for the Fulbright process. It was the UK US Commission for Fulbright and in partnership with the National Black Police Office Association in the UK, and it was a three-month research project over in the US, seconded or affiliated to two universities one in Howard in DC and one North Carolina Central. Both are with the historical black universities.

Speaker 3: 10:41

The research that my work is undergoing, or that I am undergoing, is women in policing, in particular, women of color, replacing how we recruit, retain and progress them to senior levels. This is something that I'm very passionate about. Obviously, being a lady, a woman of color and from a Muslim background. It's something that I want to leave that legacy behind when I retire. I want to make sure that the workforce is reflecting our communities. So that's what's really brought me to the US For six weeks in DC area. It's been absolutely fantastic. I've obviously worked with the university law school, met some brilliant professors and students, where I've learned a lot and really the American view and the American perspective on things and actually what I can say.

Speaker 3: 11:38

Wider than that, I've also then worked with alongside and interviewed members of the Metropolitan Police Department and Montgomery County Police, the chiefs there and the assistants, and been on a ride along with a couple of officers. And you're right, yes, the policing is different in UK, that goes without saying. But what we can all rely on is that blue line. We are all but from the police and family, and that really what brings us together. We all have had hurdles everyone and barriers that we've had to overcome in faith, but actually we are where we are because we're doing it for the right reasons, and that was the underlying tone in everyone that I've met. They've joined for the right reasons and those reasons are to serve the community, to make it a better place and give something back. And the challenges that we all have and the progress that we all have are very similar and so we can resonate on that.

Speaker 2: 12:39

Well, here in the United States, as you know, as you well know that there are many a detractor of policing, many negative views of policing, some earned and many of them not earned. But I also know that it carries over across the globe. So, part of the community and part of certainly the community of color, many feel that they're disenfranchised and the police don't understand them, the police don't care about them. Is it the same where you are from?

Speaker 3: 13:07

I think we can reflect on both UK, us and nationally, globally having incidents where there have been reasons for certain community members to be aggrieved or pushback and say, actually, this is not right, this is not fair and we have to accept that, we have to acknowledge that. But actually we have to see how we can improve and make sure we don't make those mistakes again, and I think that's what all police forces are currently doing. Yes, there's been mistakes in the past but, yes, we are moving forward and I can sort of most recently again globally, since the pandemic and the George Floyd incident and certain incidents in the UK that have occurred which have made some distrust, really from certain community members. However, what we are now doing and both in the US and in the UK, we are trying to address those issues. We are trying to say, look, these mistakes have happened, work with us to improve. And that's certainly going back to the UK. We are doing that.

Speaker 3: 14:02

We've got a national race action plan which each force is pushing and driving, and talking about my local force, south Yorkshire, we are, we are driving that, we are working. And the race action plan I'm not sure if you're aware of it, it's more sort of concentrated on the black community, showing them that the police are there, getting that trust and confidence back. We've got a dedicated team in the UK and certain forces and especially my force. We've got a superintendent leading on this. We've held, and will continue to hold, several engagement events with our communities and just making opening those doors, opening those conversations and moving forward.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Well, thank you. We're talking to Anila Khalil Khan. She's a detective chief inspector. She's in the United States right now, but she is from South Yorkshire and Central UK and Central England. She's a Fulbright specialist and she's here at Howard University, north Carolina Central University. She's headed there very, very soon. But I want to talk a little bit about Anila is becoming a leader. Here. You are a line officer. You raise your hand, you take the test, you are now a sergeant and you have the ranks and there's a learning process about dealing with people, because you're no longer responsible only self. Now you're responsible for a small group of people. As you came into that new position, tell us, if you would, about what kinds of training that you receive to get ready for that next level.

Speaker 3: 15:18

Yeah. So again, in my my force is our future. What we do for our officers, candidates for movement from level to level, is we give them a leadership training program frontline we call it frontline leaders and it starts as on the sergeant level and every person who passes that test become a sergeant will go on this course and then that those courses. They're really, really valuable. You can take a lot away from them. They are how do we have different conversations? How do we work with our officers? How do we challenge where we need to challenge? How do we support?

Speaker 3: 15:49

It gives you a wide breadth of experience, knowledge and you're working and you train with like-minded people, everyone who has passed that test. So you're all sharing experiences, challenges that you may have had, what's worked for you. So it's that internal community that we've created. Each level I've had certain training aspects, so moving up from sort of middle, low management to middle management. It's that continuing learning cycle. Although my force port provides that training, we are reviewing this and putting some more training out. But what I've also done is done some homework as well and done in my private time some learning, some reading to educate myself and to better myself and to make sure that I'm a fair and competent leader for my team. So, yeah, it's a bit of both. It's a bit of working in the work environment, but actually some learning and reading that I've done externals to that as well.

Speaker 2: 16:40

As we continue on and you are now a detective chief inspector, you go from running briefings to running meetings and to have group meetings and unit meetings. And what kinds of mistakes, missteps do you recall that you now learned from in terms of running meetings? I'm sure my own experience has been that I worked for some old timers who were very autocratic and they would call everybody in and they would say we got to do this, this, this and this, any questions out the door, and they really don't want questions. It's a different time now. Have you gone through that process? Have you made some changes in the way you run your meetings so they're more participative and you're getting feedback from the crew, because you realize we don't know it all?

Speaker 3: 17:23

100% exactly that. On your first week, your first day, your first month as a leader, you're still learning, you're continually learning. So you will have to. You know. You come in thinking about I need to conduct this meeting, this briefing, in this manner. You then reflect on this and think, actually, this didn't work, I should try and adapt it and change it. So you continually learning, and to this day I'm still learning, I'm still adapting. And then I think it'd be a discredit to myself if I said I'm a finished article, because no one is. We're all continually changing and adapting. In policing it's slightly different in as much as the raw circumstances and situations where you have to be autocratic. So, for example, if I'm investigating a murder investigation or a kidnap investigation and it's quite a fast pace I have to be right. This is what we're doing.

Speaker 2: 18:05

So we're talking to Anila Khalil Khan. She is a chief inspector and a full writer in Washington and North Carolina for the next few months and we've had some technical difficulties so we've switched from one mode to telephone, so hopefully we can continue the conversation. What you were talking about before I lost you, anila, was conversation about morphing from a street supervisor to a leader of a group, especially in investigations, and you were talking about sometimes you have to be taught down in certain circumstances to tell somebody to do something right away, for whatever reason, for tactical reasons, right, but also how you run your meetings now, so that you can learn from each other. So talk a little bit about your style and how it's changed over some time?

Speaker 3: 18:53

Yeah, so what I have at the moment I've got 14 full sergeants. I have a monthly meeting with each department where I invite the expected sergeant. It's a split process really. So we discuss performance and data. So that's what we then discuss. I think that's that quality and it's that's what's more important the health and well-being of our team. So it's a more of an interactive like all shared ideas, a compare contract and come to an agreement. So it's not me top down saying what we have to do once. Obviously I need to know what needs to tell them what our sort of focus is for that moment.

Speaker 3: 19:23

But equally, there's shared meetings and they will meet Anila's going to have a weekly meeting with my inspector catch up again and share and exchange knowledge Over time. Obviously, as you mature into the role like you're learning the role and as you're showing yourself, your style, your communication style, your leadership style continually changes and I think it will continue to change, because I'm not the finished off and I don't think anyone is. We're all learning and we're all adapted. You pick things up, you think like you relate me to the connect, so did that really well or could have been better? There I changed and that's the way I am.

Speaker 3: 19:54

I sort of reflect on me to reflect my performance and actually adapt myself. I also then speak to people and speak to my peers and sort of share my dreams with them, just to breast in myself. If I am the right leader, in the right frame of mind and I'm conducting myself, it will make my dreams perform. And that's the whole program An open door policy. Let's go, stick around. And yes, I am on paper on the leader, yes, I am the manager. Relax with me between us, and we're all in it.

Speaker 2: 20:19

So Anila is a Detective, chief Inspector, fulbright Specialist, here in the United States. While we speak, she's in Washington, headed to North Carolina pretty soon. Let's go back for a moment to your experience in the United States. It was my experience when I was in Ireland and I had great opportunity, as you do, to move around throughout the country and to talk to people and knock on doors and present myself and go to the inspectorate and go to the headquarters and go to cab criminal assets bureau and go to the detectives and go to the stock team, the basically the tactical team, and in every little city and town that I went to just to show up at a guard station. You're doing similar stuff in Washington and my sense was that you're as curious as they are about you. What's your experience so far with the questions that you're being asked? This is as much as you're asking questions. I'm sure there are questions boomerang back at you 100%.

Speaker 3: 21:10

And the first question I over get is why don't you carry in firearms?

Speaker 3: 21:17

What the hell's wrong with you guys Exactly and actually when we then progress to a lengthy, detailed conversation and actually it's a really interesting conversation where I claim that we do have some certain officers who carry firearms so predominantly we don't and we explain that police weapons and de-escalation and disbanding and the fact that obviously firearms are not legalized back in the UK and in a certain state that they have, and sort of understand the differences and why we are like that, and it opens a lot. There are many more conversations from there. Just a little very curious. But what the under as I said before, the underlying tone is we are very similar. We have the same challenges, the same problem, the same good work ethic at the same drive that although we're completely different countries, but we are very similar in as much as what our outlook is and where we want to achieve.

Speaker 3: 22:04

There's obviously other certain key aspects that were different apart from the firearm the makeup of the teams, the number of resources that have the different aspects that have. Obviously, dc is such a different and you need to play the word you can only really compare it to Metropolitan Police, london Police and the UK because you've got government officials here, you've got the secret services etc. So it's difficult to compare to my board. However, yes, there's loads of conversation, loads of learning and both ways are both taken a lot away and compare and share in as well.

Speaker 2: 22:34

So, ultimately, what is your goal, what is the purpose of your visit, what are you trying to ascertain?

Speaker 3: 22:41

So my full black. All of research is in relation to women who police and into women of colour and policing, how we recruit, retain and progress them into policing. This is something I'm extremely passionate about being a lady of colour, a Muslim officer, working in what historically was a predominantly male or in a police in place. I can say in the UK we have changed that dramatically as much as we've got a significant number of women in police now a significant number of women of higher ranks. She's comfortable, she's comfortable, etc.

Speaker 2: 23:09

They see your leaders and it's a woman.

Speaker 3: 23:10

Yes, she's come to a lot of parties emails. She's been imposed for years. We've got Sarah Coleman as assistant chief comfortable. We've got several female chiefs super. So we've got a number of higher ranking female officers.

Speaker 3: 23:21

What we do struggle with which is where my research is coming in is how do we get women of colour whether that's a black lady, an Asian lady that's our Asian legislature to get to the higher ranks. So I'm the high ranking female of colour in my school. There's loads of people behind me, but I want to leave that legacy for the new recruits other girls, other females, other female of colour. So it's possible. Let's light that ceiling, let's get there.

Speaker 3: 23:44

We've massively done it with women, but let's get that. Let's get it represented by females of colour as well, and that's really what my drive is. It says anything that is happening in the US I could take back and like whether there's anything happening in the UK that I could share with the US. Now, obviously, with time constrictions, I am at a restraint. I am limited on how many places I can visit. However, I have a certain number of female officers female female chief of colour and again it's the same story the work part. It's got where they are because of their ability and capability, and that's something that I will be taking back.

Speaker 2: 24:16

Well, if I can suggest a few people, I'll try to connect you when we're done.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I'll give you some potentially points of contact, but I think while you're here in the United States yes, you're focused on North Carolina and you're focused on Washington, but there's a whole bunch more people out there that you can connect with while you're in the United States and I'm happy to make those introductions for you because I think the end you're going to give a report.

Speaker 2: 24:37

I know Fulbright is going to be looking for a report from you, as they did for me, and it can be very valuable. Ironically, today, because of because I was going to be talking to a fellow Fulbrighter, I went back and I looked at the lecture that I provided for the University of Limerick Law School and read it and it was upsetting to me because I'm more contemporaneous a speaker than reading from a script. But I was reading from a script, but the script and I'll share it with you the script talked about the differential that I had found between the United States and Ireland in this particular case and in some cases, what I found and I think you're seeing the same thing that there are so many differences where the United States is well ahead of what's going on in the UK, but in many instances you're way ahead of the United States in the UK, which is important. But I want to talk about the 30x30 program. Are you familiar with that?

Speaker 2: 25:22

I am yes, great, great, great. So you see an awful lot of people who are sort of jumping on the bandwagon. 30x30 is the brainchild of a few people, and I'm probably missing a few, but one is Maureen MacGuff, when she was at the National Institute of Justice, and the other is Yvonne Roman, who was out of New Jersey. She was the chief in Newark for a while and they started this idea of 30x30, let's try, by 2030, to have 30% women in policing, and then agencies have signed on. I know I'm preaching the choir. I'm sure you know about that, but before you leave, if you haven't spoken to them, I want to make some arrangement for it, because I think that would be valuable. What was the genesis? What was the pushback? Why was it so hard? What was the point where you began to gain traction?

Speaker 3: 26:03

Yeah, no, I've spoken to quite a few members who served on the committee of still part of the FID by Thursday and listened to their experience and their drive and passion. I think it's a fantastic programme. I understand it's a voluntary process. Not every force has signed up to it. However, those that have are really making the changes, are really making the differences again in metropolitan police in DC and they've increased their representation significantly. I've spoken to the chief of Boulder, chief Harold, and again similar processes there. So the programme that is working is valuable and the initiative to drive it just needs that commitment and the ongoing progression and I think by 2030 I think there will be things across the target. But, yeah, something that I will be taking back and reflecting on that?

Speaker 2: 26:47

Yeah, that's good. I'm glad your role as a leader in developing others. How do you see that?

Speaker 3: 26:51

Probably the most valuable role I will ever do to get criminal investigations, to get seen investigations, etc. It's developing my team, my peers as well, to not only form better but be better and lead better. If I can leave my legacy behind or my examples, whether good or bad, learn from me is what I say to my team. Learn from my mistakes, actually learn what I'm doing. I think you can take looking back from everyone you interact with, whether they're your peers or not, whether they're the leader or not. That thing for me is keep your eyes open, listen, support and make those decisions and be standing by those decisions. That leadership means it's something that everyone can do and everyone needs to, and by doing it is what's going to be supporting everyone else as well.

Speaker 2: 27:34

Talking to Anila Khalil Khan, chief Inspector, will provide specialist side of the short South Yorkshire Police Department in the. Uk and I want to throw a question for you. If I was to say to Anila I need you to put together a new training program for Chief Inspectors and I want it to be on leadership. What are the things that you would see yourself including in that training outline?

Speaker 3: 28:07

That's a really good question and something that my forces are currently putting together, so it's quite concerning For me. What we need to teach our future leaders is the I'm not going to talk about the actual policing, because I think we learn that, but it's like concentrating on the leadership. I think we need to make them aware and somehow make sure they know if someone else's lens so my lens is going to be that of an agent female, yours is going to be a white male. We need to understand how it would be for you, for me, a person of colour or male, female, whatever how it would feel for them. We need to understand that. We need to understand the background of things and we need to educate of.

Speaker 3: 28:54

Let's look at the mistakes we've made in policing. Equally with that, let's see how we move forward and develop and change and try to overcome that hurdle. We need to understand the background and therefore move forward. And we've got to understand and have that sympathetic view of a different lens, because I think that will change the culture, because we will ideally make less mistakes if we could be from someone else's point of view. That's the first thing For me having the ability to yes, you and I have seen your leading in a very position where you are the decision maker ultimately, but you've got to be humble enough to accept your mistakes but actually listen to others, having that open the circle of trust, the circle of conversation and understanding how we develop each other and progress better as a team as opposed to an individual.

Speaker 3: 29:48

And actually the listening skills and support skills go hand in hand for me, supporting each other and challenging them, whether a challenge needs to be be upstanders or not bystanders, and stand up from what's not right and call it out. There's a great movement back home where we are doing that. We're making positive changes, but things that have happened in a negative manner whether that can be anything from a progeny to racism to whatever it is we need to stand together to address these issues. For me, the leadership is not only the policing and the skills and the decision making skills there, but actually it's bettering themselves as well at understanding what's happened in the past and how to not make those mistakes again.

Speaker 2: 30:24

Well, I think, if I can react to that, that what we begin to realize is that leadership is about people and policing is about people, and so understanding your people. You talked about having empathy. I love the active learning actually active learning, for sure, and lifelong learning but the deep listening skills, not jumping to conclusions. One of the things that I say and I certainly have learned as a leader myself is when you're going to call somebody out, you're going to put them on the defensive, and I think these are conversations that cannot be solved with one sitting. It's basically I need to talk to you, I need to talk to you about something and I want you to think about, I want you to reflect on it and once you get your arms around it or your head around it, let's talk again, so that you don't have to sit there and feel like I'm attacking you. But let's continue the conversation. What do you think about that?

Speaker 3: 31:11

No, I think that's really good. I think that's what we need to be doing is, sometimes you can carry on and not realize the mistakes you've made until someone points it out. Yes, you're going to react to that, but quite defensive. But actually, if you sit back and understand where you could have been misinterpreted or where the mistakes wouldn't be made, and reflect on that, we'll develop you and make you a better person. So I'm a full supporter of that.

Speaker 2: 31:32

So part of those conversations are well, that's the way you see it. Let me tell you how I see it, how other people may perceive it. It's about perception, right, and sometimes people are blind to the way others understand. I really like trying to sit down and get to know the people who work for me, to understand their lived experience. What you said was understand background. In my mind, what you're saying is understand history, history of the individual, understand the history of the organization and understand the history of even somebody that you're arresting. Those are things that can be very, very valuable.

Speaker 2: 32:06

I use again Covey, and that is one of the principles is seek first to understand and then be understood. And so I'm hearing that from you, which I think is important. And I think coming to the idea of policing your own lived experience and policing as a woman is different. Certainly, I mean, I'm the father of three daughters, but that does not make me perfect. I'm still a man, but I can tell you that the agent, both the agents that I worked with and worked with me, what I tried very hard to do is to understand their points of view whenever I could, but also to encourage women to move along, move up, take opportunities and I think that's important. I think it changes the complexion of an organization to have a woman's intuition, a woman's point of view. We're done being an all male organization. The military has certainly that direction. But back to your opportunity here in the United States. How lucky do you find yourself to have this opportunity?

Speaker 3: 33:01

Can I just go back to the comment that you made just about the women. I would really know what I'd like to add on that is yes, we need women around the table and women in a male or an anti-police environment and any organizations. However, we do need to reflect the community. We do need to have people of color and women of color as well, so not just women. I think we need to have a great demographic, because everyone's got different experiences, everyone can bring different things to the table, and bringing that together will make the organization a better place to work for and to be in as well. So that's the only thing I would like to add. No, no, no, and I want to follow up on that.

Speaker 2: 33:33

I think that's an extremely good point that I missed. You're absolutely right, because what happens is those people of color or from a different religious practice. That is extremely valuable to help the people around the table who don't understand you. As a Muslim woman, you can help me understand what's going on, why people are pissed off in that community that's extremely important but why the black community is upset, because you can help be the voice and help those people around the table understand the dilemma, understand that perspective. So thank you for that. That's a very, very, very big point. Anything else.

Speaker 3: 34:08

And you hit the nail on the head. It's really we are the voice. We are the voice of the community. Because we've lived that experience, we've probably dealt with things, our experience things slightly different from everyone else. We can be sympathetic a little bit about things that we've experienced and share that. But yeah, we just need to have that great representation in every organisation, not just in place in every major organisation, because I think that's how it becomes a better place to be and we can work together and it's not. We're fair and balanced and that's the main drive really. And then that's really linked to my research, I think, the question you were asking about how fortunate this opportunity is.

Speaker 3: 34:44

I am extremely fortunate and that's why I want to make the most of it and do an experience so many different things. I'm thankful for my organisation, staff, the ULTU Police supporting me, the National Black Police Office Association, the UK Post meeting and, more importantly, for the full bright for accepting me and allowing me on to this programme. It's the first time I've had this programme. I'm the pioneer for it and I want to leave that. Leave it and say, look, I have been able to do this. Yes, it's been challenging. Yes, it's been hard, getting into the right forums, the right people, the right meetings. But I'm hoping we can understand that I'm a determined person and I've done that and I've achieved that and what I've learned and the experience that I've had here will take me further, not just within police, but potentially wider than that.

Speaker 3: 35:26

Working with the university. I'm more of a practitioner than an academic, but certainly those to the academia world and understanding the challenges that those guys have as well. So, more importantly, I've seen and understood what the community's saying. So I've worked with, from the students at HALS University, some really powerful interleaders there in law and in their view. So you know we're talking about young teenagers and grandkids who have got a completely different view to what I have, and we're talking really into conversations, which makes me think of things in a different way. And just even being in DC and going to the numerous museums here and reflecting on the history and why America is where it is again, it's as valid, not only my research but my own development, and I get it now. Well, I won't say that's the big term, I get it now, but I understand it a lot more now.

Speaker 2: 36:15

Have you been to the Holocaust Museum?

Speaker 3: 36:18

No, I've got a book in place in the scene.

Speaker 2: 36:20

That's. I mean, that's chilling. Or the African-American Museum, which is not too far from where you are. That's a relatively new one, and people who have gone there.

Speaker 3: 36:29

I went to that one and that was probably my best one that I've been to. So it's so well laid out, so well organized, and started from the top and worked my way down, and I'm glad I did it that way, because the lower ground is so heart wrenching and impactful. So, yeah, so you know, the opportunity has been absolutely fantastic and my advice for anyone would be if you have this opportunity or a similar opportunity, please just snap it up and take it and make it what you want from me to help it, and that's what I will be doing.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Another thing that I wrote down as we were talking and we're going to be winding down pretty soon is while you're in North Carolina, I'm hoping that I can connect with you with somebody regarding evidence-based policing, which I know is very strong Larry Sherman Dr Sherman over at Cambridge University, that is very, very influential in evidence-based policing. But here in America we've got the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing and one of I believe one of the founders is in the area you're going to be, so maybe we can connect you right? Renee Mitchell.

Speaker 2: 37:25

So yeah, I appreciate that and I want to try to hook you up with members of the Drug Enforcement Administration to while you're down in North Carolina, so, as we wind down and for the listeners, I apologize for some of the technical difficulties that we have had, but we seem to have overcome it by switching from Zoom alone to a phone call talking to Anila Gileil Khan from the South Yorkshire Police Department, now in the United States on a full, bright visit, and I'm curious to find, as you get ready to part with me, what you think you will do with the knowledge from this comparison that you are able to live between the United States and the UK, the similarities and the dissimilarities, and the opportunity you have to spread the word back home.

Speaker 3: 38:12

Yeah, and that comes to the amcom and source of what I want to do. That's the first and fourth message. If there's anything I can take back to my source and why? Go in the UK and you know, say America is doing this or certain states are doing this, what, why don't we consider it? It's those little things that I can share and there's quick hits, but why doesn't that?

Speaker 3: 38:30

My aim and my ambition is to work with Sheffield Hall University and work with Albright to spread the learning and spread my understanding and research project and see how we can sort of develop an adapt on that, obviously hopefully working with National Black Police Office Association in the UK, sort of lecturing and speaking from their point of view. I've already been in conversations with Hallam University seeing if there's anything we can work with their students as well. So they do. They work quite closely with South Yorkshire Police in the recruitment and the occasions that if there's anything I can do that this opportunity has actually opened so many more opportunities that I've got to be careful of what I say, yes and no. So but I'm so passionate about it I just want to share. You know it's one of those say yes to everything because you know, you don't know where it would lead. But actually, more importantly, I don't know yet what impact I will leave.

Speaker 3: 39:18

Because, as I said before, is that legacy? We need to change the mindset for young female officers girls, ladies, women of colour that, yes, policing is a great career, policing is a valuable career and you can make that difference and you can join it. You can get higher levels. That's the most important thing that I want to leave behind is the young girl at school think oh, what shall I do? I want to get to play difficult. They'll see someone who actually looks like them, reflect them and take something away. Yes, there's lecture in this paper that wants to write. There's some research I want to do. There's people I want to work with. That's all great. That's all fantastic. It's reaching out. The young women and girls of colour, of any ethnicity say we can do this.

Speaker 2: 39:56

That's great well, not only your leader, but your role model, and you want to pay forward, which I think is so amazing. We have been talking to Anil Khalil Khan. She is a detective chief inspector from the South Yorkshire Police Department. She is a full right specialist, in essence, on assignments in the United States, both in the DC area and headed to North Carolina. Before you head back, when do you head back? I go back to mid-August okay, so how do people get in touch with you?

Speaker 3: 40:22

so I've got a LinkedIn profile, anil Khalil Khan, I've got a Twitter account and I handle it at Anila KK or, obviously, my email, which I can provide a sneak peek.

Speaker 2: 40:31

That's terrific well, thank you. Thanks so much for your time, for your energy, safe travels as you go from Washington later in the week to North Carolina. Quite different, I might say, but I think you'll enjoy as much your time in North Carolina. So thank you to Anila. That's another episode of the cop doc podcast. Stay tuned for more episodes. Anila, thank you very much thank you, I appreciate that stand by for more episodes in the coming weeks.

Speaker 2: 40:58

We're talking to people from Northern Ireland, from Canada and from the United States as well as others from the UK have a good day, stay safe thanks for listening to the cop doc podcast with Dr Steve Moriali.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from western state university. Please tune into the cop doc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.