The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Visit our website: https://www.copdocpodcast.com
The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
Happy to report that The CopDoc Podcast is listed as #4 in the 10 Best Worcester Podcasts!
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The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Synergy of Leadership and Evolution in Policing: A Conversation with Sylvia Moir
The CopDoc Podcast - Season 6 - Episode 110
Prepare to be enlightened by Sylvia Moir, the Under Sheriff of Marin County, California, who carries with her a wealth of knowledge from her 35-year policing career. Sylvia's philosophy of leadership is characterized by an intense focus on listening and understanding, acknowledging that her role encompasses more than just her — it is about the organization, the community, and the profession.
As Sylvia unravels her experiences, she opens up about her unique approach to professional development, demonstrating how strategic delegation and a commitment to diverse perspectives can empower a team and enrich decision-making processes. She also explores the evolution of the policing profession, underlining the rise in intellectual standards and underscoring the importance of accountability, certification, and pride within the force.
In the latter part of our discussion, Sylvia highlights the vital role of collaboration and humanity in policing. She also delves into the concept of regionalization and customer service in law enforcement, drawing the line between civil rights and human rights. Wrapping up with a captivating tale about a DEA agent's approach to conflict, this episode promises a riveting journey into the mind of a seasoned law enforcement leader. Prepare to be inspired, challenged, and enlightened.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The Cop Doc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morrealel nd industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale:Well, hello everybody. This is Steve Morealei, coming to you from Boston. Again, welcome to the Cop Doc Podcast. We are on a bicoastal discussion with California. I am talking to Moir and Marin, the under sheriff of Marin County. Sylvia Moir, how are you?
Sylvia Moir :I'm fantastic. Thanks for that. Looking forward to today in the bicoastal. It's delicious.
Steve Morreale:It does. So thank you very much. We have talked, we have met. I have had the benefit of interviewing you for some research I did on decision making, and I see that you just continue to work. I guess you're not going to retire. What the hell is wrong with you? Do you go from place to place to place?
Sylvia Moir :Right, I have energy, I have insight, I genuinely is this an explicit rating?
Steve Morreale:You could do whatever you want to say.
Sylvia Moir :I give a shit, I can't help it. Yeah, I give a shit. So it's this when we're at the right place at the right time, the only thing that stops us is fear. So I've retired a few times and then was not seeking a darn thing, but tapped on the shoulder and said why not? So I came right out to Marin after a why not Conversation.
Steve Morreale:Well, I think it's terrific and what you've gone through. You started in Sacramento, you have been in Arizona, you have been in California, a couple of places you just told me you're living. One of the places you're living is in Northern Arizona and I want to talk about. You started in Sacramento and I just read that you were in Napa, like really, really in wine country!
Sylvia Moir :Yes, I know there's nowhere that I've gone. That sucks, so I go into some incredible places in this country, mostly West Coast, but I've been really fortunate.
Steve Morreale:So you started in policing in 1990?
Sylvia Moir :I'm going to tell you something I started 35 years ago today, so 35 years ago today Happy anniversary baby. Thank you. Thank you, it's just a lovely coincidence that we're talking on this day. So 35 years ago today. I was just a little punk kid, Really wanted to contribute in policing. It was my first day in uniform. It was crazy making. And here we are.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, crazy, I'm looking. Obviously I have to do some background to work with you and to figure you out, but you were a commander at Menlo Park. I just talked to the current chief. He's in Boston, actually at Harvard.
Sylvia Moir :At Smith no.
Steve Morreale:Harvard, the Kennedy School, smith's going on too. You were the chief of police in El Cerrito. You were the police chief in Tempe. You are now the under sheriff, basically the operational boss up in Marin County, and so can I take you back before we get into that, can I? Ask you to think about the first day you walked into a job as a chief. What were you thinking? What were your trepidations? How did you handle the new stars?
Sylvia Moir :Wow, that's a complex question and your listeners will probably this will resonate with them. One of the gifts that I had on my first day July 12th, actually 2010, I was a new chief and I had come from the Sacramento Police Department, which offered me an opportunity to pack up my stuff, go to a different command, land in that command and then having the shared values, the shared principles and the character traits of being a leader in Sacramento from one command to another. You land there, you unpack and you get to know the climate and some of the cultural nuances in that different command. So in that big structure of the Sacramento Police Department, I was able to pack up my stuff, go to a new substation, a new command, unpack and get to know people. The reason that's important is it informed the way that I showed up as a chief, and I showed up as a chief.
Sylvia Moir :Two things really instructed how I showed up. One was that flexibility and the agility of going from one command to another. It wasn't something that created great equilibrium for me, steve. The other thing is that I really solidly understood that the higher you go, the less the job is about you. So this is what I was faced with I arrive, I unpack.
Sylvia Moir :I then knew that nothing that I did from that day forward was about me, my comfort, my individual decision making, the policies, the strategies, the culture, the climate. That was about the organization, about the community and about the profession of policing. So I've often said that that was the one thing that really distinguished how I landed and I was confident. But I was also humble enough to know I was going to learn a lot. And my approach was really to sit down with each individual person and ask them that question you and I talked about before. Okay, hey, tell me about you, tell me what we do really well, tell me where we suck. And if you were chief for a day, what would you do right now? And so I sat with them and I mined them for their perspective, their feel, their collective individual and then collective understanding of how we showed up as a police department. So I think that gives a sense of kind of how I walked into that job on that first day.
Steve Morreale:Wow, as your colleague Kristen would say, let me unpack that she has a way of trying to unpack stuff.
Intro Outro :I've never used that term.
Steve Morreale:I know I've never used that term until she used it on me, but there were a couple of things that you said that I think that are great.
Steve Morreale:And, by the way, we're talking to Sylvia Moyer and she is now the under sheriff in Marin County, california, you know, I think you talked about humility, which I love, and you also talked about realizing and I'm beginning to do an awful lot of work on leadership. It's all on you, but it's not about you, and that's exactly what you said, and you don't know what you don't know, and it's much like me and the ability there and the opportunity I have to be able to talk to people from all over the world and simply have a chat and ask questions. So when you're asking questions of people and I love that what you said and the way I use it in training is if you were king or queen for the day and could make one change, one in the department, what would it be? Now you've got 30, 50, 70 people. You're talking. You potentially have 40 or 50 ideas, not yours, so go ahead, talk about that.
Sylvia Moir :Right, and then what do you do with that? And folks not only want to be heard, steve, they want you to do something about it. So my approach in El Cerrito and a small organization was very similar and really the same when I landed in Tempe. So what I did in El Cerrito, what I replicated in Tempe, was then I created a chart, a list, a table that said okay, without direct attribution to the individuals, unless they wanted it, of course. I would say you know?
Sylvia Moir :Steve said that the one thing he'd change is that we would have a bar scanner for evidence when he's booking property and evidence. He said it's laborious and it takes too much time. There's the tracking stinks or whatever. So item number one in this example would be examine or explore, analyze how to institute new technology in property and evidence. So that would be the task, or the insight. The second thing would be does this make sense to do, yes or no? If yes, then who's going to be the lead? Now that's the really cool part, steve, that I'll get to in a second. Who's going to be the lead of that project? And then feedback has it been completed? What are some dates, some milestones, and we create an accountability chart. Now to the point who's going to be the lead.
Sylvia Moir :Therein lies one of those fundamental sergeant tasks that I learned, and that is we delegate to develop people. We never abdicate authority. And so the delegation that I did was really prescriptive, because it wasn't just delegate because I don't have time or, you know, I didn't have the capacity to do it. It was delegate, steve, to strengthen the individual.
Sylvia Moir :So if there was a lieutenant that hadn't handled a project, didn't understand the research element, the budget, how we would examine technology or all the components that go into a project like that, I would sit with that lieutenant and in this example I did and said, hey, here's a project, this is what we're going to explore, here are the parameters, here's some kind of smart practices, here's the time in which we're going to do it, here's your scope and permissions. And then say, go do it Now. Then I would say here's the principle of it and the preference in how you get there is solely you. And then sit beside them at key points to develop, to nudge, to re-bore the development of that employee, to respect the item that came up, and then there's whole feedback mechanism, and so that's really kind of how I approached that Plus, it cascaded the communication. It was transparent, people were heard, they saw change taking place and, steve, it was changed from where they sit.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, not you coming in from the outside and say this is what I say, this is what gets people in trouble. Well, the way we did this somewhere else at some point in time too, is, from now on, stop talking about where you were. You're here Because I think it rankles people. But I love what you're saying and it seems to me that if you were to collect this information and create sort of a list, bring it back to your command staff and say listen, I've been listening to the people which, by the way, is teaching them that they need to do the same thing Sometimes they don't but also to say here are 25 things that I heard that could be done. Why don't we put together a list of potential priorities, think about the factors of cost and time and all of those kinds of things, and let's chip away at two or three at a time and push these projects out to other people, because you can get more done through others. And again, what you said and I love it, it is about developing others.
Sylvia Moir :Right, because if we're just delegating to get things done, are they really developing any increased capacity? And if we're really precise, from the leadership position in which we rest, which we sit, then we would say, look, these are the folks, here are the development spaces where they need to grow, and we look for opportunities that fit that space and then we don't leave them out there hanging. And, like I said, it's about the principle of it. The preference is kind of how you get there. The principle is that unyielding truth or standard. And it also then what we did was we really elevated the importance of a collective commitment to diving into this list. Then, kind of process wise, steve, we would take that chart and the command staff meeting weekly, we'd say, okay, let's pull up where we at right.
Sylvia Moir :How we doing and everybody would report in and say you know what, I didn't do anything on that. Okay, let's make a note. And then, what are the resources might you need? And it was a really collaborative piece and folks started seeing things getting done and I could say one of the funny ones in El Cerrito was you know what? The bench in the lobby has a tear in it and we've put it together with duct tape for like 15 years.
Sylvia Moir :Okay well, what an impression when you walk in right, all right so how might we just get a bid and get that thing recovered? Okay, so I mean it's from the simple mundane to something increasingly more significant that might take a team to actually appreciate and to complete. Something about that is and here's a really cool thing inviting diverse inputs to solve these problems. So let's just say, a mid manager, a lieutenant, was in charge of the project that I described a second ago and I would say who are you going to have on this team to enrich your thinking? And typically cops have cops.
Sylvia Moir :I said, well, what if we invited our professional staff from this place and this place and the analyst from over here and someone from the city that might be equally the city attorney's office or something, to invite those diverse inputs? What we found was that the input was diverse. It made the decision making more rich, it expanded, people felt included and it gave them voice across the organization. So it's a whole bunch of effects. I don't know where it came from. I think it's kind of a sprinkling of a whole bunch of different learnings that I've had, but I found that the real strength was doing that in the organization and then recreating that as I went forward.
Steve Morreale:It's interesting that you say that, because I think, if we look back on the people who have influenced us because one of the questions I always ask is, we did you learn how to lead? And I think in some cases we learn both from the bad and the good, what not to do and what to emulate, and then create sort of a customized approach that works for us and for the organization and think about that.
Steve Morreale:I think if you said at the beginning and you did that it's no longer about me, it's about the rest of them and how I leave that organization, what is my legacy? My legacy is not that I was a great chief as much. I was a person who worked to help others realize their potential.
Sylvia Moir :You're smiling, you're smirking, you're smirking. I am smiling and smirking, no doubt I think when we increase the capacity of folks for disappointment, for the rigors of the work, to elevate their thinking, then we are really doing a service for communities and for the profession of policing. I really wholly believe in that, that we are elevating the readiness of individuals to lead from wherever they sit.
Steve Morreale:A couple of times you have said I'm listening to you, I'm watching you and I'm thinking, wow, I scored a great thought leader. I think every you may not see yourself as that, but I do from the outside, and I think that honesty, maybe that humility too, is extremely valuable. But you said a couple of things and one word you're using a lot is profession. I challenged a number of people who have said this, including Bill Bratton with his book and the profession. But help me understand, help the listeners understand I'm playing devil's advocate why you feel we are in a profession.
Sylvia Moir :Oh, steve, I think it's clear We've gone from a trade to a profession and a number of things. There are plenty of metrics out there, but I'll speak wholly as an observer and as a participant. We have increased the intellectual standard that's necessary to be in the biz we really have. The profession of policing has changed in that we arguably have less crime. We're more sophisticated in the way that we analyze crime. It used to be crime is here, put cops on dots, search resources, and that was the only thing that we did.
Sylvia Moir :We now look at things like the stratified model for addressing crime. We look at temporal approaches, we look at problems differently, we examine dilemmas and we bring an array of resources to policing and the service of policing. That really does define it as a profession. To add to that, steve, we have accountability measures. We have after action review. We learn from not only the Sentinel events and have Sentinel event reviews, but we are starting to look at near misses, like other professions, like medicine and air. There's an array of things that distinguish us as a profession certification, decertification and a array of things. So, if I'm really to capture it, it is increasing our thinking, increasing and enhancing and strengthening the intellectual approach, beside the technology and the tactics, and the way that we engage in the humanity and the service and we're also questioning. So if we take the increased intellectual capacity, the influence of technology, the education, the learning components, the certification, the accountability and all of those measures, we can argue that we are a profession.
Steve Morreale:Nicely done.
Sylvia Moir :Not sure it was nicely done, but it was real, it was nicely done.
Steve Morreale:No, no, no, no, no, no. It's from the heart and I understand it. It's from your lived experience.
Steve Morreale:And all of the things that you're seeing and all policing under fire, and yet you have to go out there and rally the troops to say, look, there may be some people who are naysayers out there. We have a job to do. Go out and do that job, which is important, it seems to me. And, by the way, we're talking to Sylvia Moyer. She's in Marin County in California now the under sheriff when you were talking about that rip. I wanna go back for a moment on the couch in the front or the bench in the front. So many people and I'll ask this question, an awful lot in trainings. So many people I'll ask Do you allow this is rhetorical to you? Do you allow your people to have an ownership stake or are they simply renting? And it seems to me, when you insert pride in essence, pride and ownership, when you see something wrong at the station that does not give a good image, bring it forward to us to fix. Don't simply say it's not my job, so talk about that.
Sylvia Moir :That's so funny. You're talking about this, the sheriff and I interview every applicant that wants to join our team and I consistently describe for them, or ask them to describe for us, a time when they took initiative, when you saw something that was in need of attention and you identified it and then you took it as in furtherance of solving the issue or remedying that problem. It could be that bench it's like, hey, this needs to be fixed, how do we do that? And the basic level of inquiry and the permission to ask, and then the path for folks to take that initiative and then solve a problem. That comes from the organizational climate. That's how we act, how we interact, the language we use.
Sylvia Moir :It's more rapidly changing and I could say that, let's face it, we have professional staff and we have sworn staff and some of those approaches are a little bit different, right, but we all share the common thread of public service. We could say that policing is a unique profession with unique coping mechanisms. We have, steve, if we think about this, we have two government permissions that no other profession enjoys. Number one is the right to deprive someone of their freedom to take someone to Ducati. Deprive them of their freedom through arrest and the other authorities that we enjoy. The other is the government authority to use deadly force.
Sylvia Moir :Both of those come with incredible consequences, incredible pieces of accountability and incredible necessities as human beings. So we share this common desire to make a difference, to leave scenes, leave places better when we leave them, when we found them, and I think initiative and affecting change is part of that foundationally. And if you strip it all away, this bench idea is and conversation is something that at its easiest, is not consequential by just being a bench, but it's consequential in terms of what it means for the organization, the messages we send. The employee that brought that forward, that took courage to sit with the chief of police and say starts with this bench. That is a sign. It's a signal about how we view ourselves, and so changing that starts to build some momentum around how we view ourselves right.
Steve Morreale:There was a gap in your tenure from the time you left Tempe and came here. What were you doing? What drew you back?
Sylvia Moir :There's the big question, right. So I retired, I was coordinating the executive development course with California peace officer standards and training and that is the highest certification that an executive in California would achieve. It's a two week executive course. So I was doing that and then I got a call from the city manager in Napa, california, and he said, hey, what are you doing? I said I'm enjoying myself and I've flipped flops and whatever in Northern California and he said, hey, we have a need. Would you consider coming back and being our interim? So we had a long conversation about that the scope and authority and the permissions that I would have and I said, look, I don't know how to do it and just be you don't want to babysit right.
Sylvia Moir :So, steve, you know your, your viewers are going to bristle at this, but I said, look, there's two ways to approach this interim thing I can be your rebound chief or I can be your foster chief. A rebound is like a rebound relationship you have a great time but you make no commitment and you don't really get to know each other. A foster chief is you know, you take in the organization, you love them big and you prepare them for being on their own and really being bigger and better than they were with you present and give them all the skills. And so I was a foster chief. I came into the organization and I got to do some really important stuff and challenge the thinking and really set some good expectations and work with the team. And so I did that.
Sylvia Moir :I retired again and I left that service and I found myself in a real life kind of intersection this intersection of life that we don't expect where my personal life changed on a dime and I was really challenging myself on how I would create some greater independence and some internal agency and, paradoxically, I became so fiercely independent but closer to my people through that time. And then, on my last day in Napa actually, I met the then under-sheriff of Marin County, jamie Skardina, and we had a great conversation. I found I was very fond of him and it was he who was elected sheriff that said, hey, would you come and serve as my number two? And so what was to be afraid of? There was nothing to be afraid of, and so I said, sure, absolutely. And I'll tell you, steve, being a number two is a delicious, amazing little piece.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, before we move back, because I want to talk about Marin and your experience of Marin and what that's about and how big it is and all that kind of stuff. But Sonoma Napa, sonoma Napa there's always that push and pull between Sonoma Napa. Which is the better?
Sylvia Moir :Oh, I say Napa. Sure. People say Sonoma makes wine and Napa makes auto parts. I've heard that one. But, they both have their rich pieces and it's a beautiful part of the world. I love Napa because of the river Sonoma. You know the topography, the terrain, the climate is wonderful and both have great places to eat and good things to enjoy. So, but also have challenges in terms of crime and community policing and trust. So it wasn't an easy gig, but it was really satisfying. So I don't know. I vote for Napa.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, good, good, good. Well, I suppose because you lived there and you ran the department for a little while. So I'm curious about a couple of things. Tell the listeners about the makeup of the county sheriff's office.
Sylvia Moir :Well, I'll tell you what a start contrast to being an appointed official and working for municipality and coming to the sheriff's office in Marin County and serving an elected. Really, the makeup is the sheriff is an elected official. I serve at Will and I serve as the number two running the organization. We have different divisions and so so cool. We have the traditional patrol and investigations. Also adding to kind of this body of service is the Marine unit. We have corner and courts and custody Super new to me.
Sylvia Moir :So I was reading title 15 and title 24 trying to learn this custody thing and really realized that we have incredible executives that run those divisions. So then I serve them, they serve people, and then we have a whole bunch of ancillary assignments. We have an incredible search and rescue team that develops young people and has a robust array of volunteers and an air unit, and we have boats and dive teams and drone operators and some folks that not only serve their primary mission in serving people in the primary work that we do in day to day policing in a beautiful part of the world, but they also accept responsibility to have ancillary assignments, which is one of the rich things about being this size of an organization. We have about 400 folks. Okay, yeah, it's a smaller county.
Steve Morreale:It's not LA County, like Jim's right.
Sylvia Moir :Boy, did he run a beast? Right and now with Sheriff Luna but we really get to know people and understand neighborhoods and struggles and things differently.
Steve Morreale:How important is it in your county responsibility to collaborate and relate with the locals?
Sylvia Moir :Oh, it's absolutely essential, Just like in other spots. Regionalization is where it's at. We should never introduce ourselves over crime scene tape, right? I think there's a real call to action for all of us to employ this perspective of regionalization when it comes to leveraging, buying, purchasing and deployment. Recently, we had a presidential visit and it calls on all of us to step up and do our part. I think that's one of the amazing things about police is we collaborate really well together with a crisis. You know we get a little crunchy when it comes to the mundane day-to-day things, but it's absolutely essential that we collaborate.
Steve Morreale:Does Sylvia Moyer see policing as a customer service organization?
Sylvia Moir :Well, it depends on how you define customer service.
Steve Morreale:Well, we're in the industry of responding to calls, responding to issues, responding to problems. Sure, my question is in terms of you sitting with people or talking with people? In terms of setting the expectations about professionalism, about treatment of others. I'm curious. I don't mean to make you hesitate, but do you think that a customer service approach is something that's important for people who wear the bat? Wear the star.
Sylvia Moir :I guess I put a finer point on that, Steve, and I'd say human approach. Customer service implies to me that we're going to satisfy people.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, that's true.
Sylvia Moir :However we deploy, however it feels and looks for them, and I think that's setting people up for false expectation. If we insert humanity into the service, we can't go wrong.
Steve Morreale:Yeah.
Sylvia Moir :And humanity on both sides really says look, I might not always get this right, but here's my intent, here's what I hope to achieve. And then having an interaction with people that is different, and I'm not sure I kind of wrinkle my nose a little bit when we talk about customer service.
Steve Morreale:I think it's the humanity of yeah Well, you've just corrected me very, very well and helped me look at things from a different no, no, no, no, no, no, no from a different perspective, and I really do appreciate that. It's that openness that we expect from other people to say listen and then react. And I agree. I mean I've been using that for an awful long time, but you have modified my thought because I think you're right. You know, the customer is not always right by any means. We know that in business. That's what you tried to have, so I do like you injecting. It's interesting. You say humanity, because spending time in the UK and in Ireland, we talk about civil rights, they talk about human rights, and that's completely different. Yes, go ahead, speak to that.
Sylvia Moir :Completely different because civil rights gained through the community, through typically laws that describe, and written laws and statutes that describe how we're going to interact, and gives access Right, and so I find it fascinating that human rights that's foundational. We know what that looks like and what it feels like, steve, so I consistently appreciate the European approach to speaking about this.
Steve Morreale:Gotcha, so I see in the back of you, I have the benefit of seeing you on video while we're only doing audio. There's something that says socks there, and I happen to think that that says red socks, so tell us about that we talked about that.
Sylvia Moir :Okay, steve. As a young girl, I was one of the first girls in Little League in my little town in Davis, california, and my dad, taking an academic approach, made me read a book about Lou Gehrig Okay, how's that? The red socks. So, because I was going to play a team sport, I had to understand the difference between hurt and being injured and my commitment to the team and I fell in love with Lou Gehrig and everything he stood for. And the number four has been central to my life. But I told my dad, I said I really loved the red socks, I love their uniforms, and he said you know, this could be a problem for you as you get older.
Steve Morreale:Yeah.
Sylvia Moir :I'm a diehard red socks fan. In fact, steve, my dog's name is Fenway.
Steve Morreale:No kidding, that's great, my wife is gonna love you.
Sylvia Moir :Well, your wife has really good taste. He's got a red socks, bow ties, he's, he's the real deal. He's a bit of a mass hole. Every once in a, while.
Steve Morreale:But no, no, a mass hole. I'll tell you a story I've never said on. This is just a silly sign.
Sylvia Moir :There we go, listeners.
Steve Morreale:Well, so we're down in Nashville and we're at a bar and there's some music playing and we're with another couple and I belly up to the bar to get a second round and this kid has a Boston Bruins hat on and I say to him what's with the Bruins hat in Nashville? He says, well, I'm actually from Massachusetts. I said, really. So we talked for a little while when should I go? You've been here for a couple years. He's telling me that when I'm done, I sign the check and I said thank you, it's been great.
Steve Morreale:Talking to another mass hole, and the guy to the left of me at the bar says did you just call me an asshole? And I'm thinking this is going to go sideways. Now I'm still a badge carrying DEA agent. I'm thinking, holy shit, how is this going to end up? And so ultimately I said to him no, no, no, no, no, no. I was saying to him we're both from Massachusetts, we interact, we use it, we? No, we use the term mass hole nicely. And he said oh well, I thought you were calling me an asshole, because if you call me an asshole, I wanted to introduce you to my friend because he's a real asshole. And that's what happened. They turned out to be two Cleveland firefighters, two lieutenants and got, and we sat and talked with them for hours. So you never know, that could have gone sideways, but that's the first time I've used mass hole on this podcast.
Sylvia Moir :Good to know listeners. Here we are. It happened.
Steve Morreale:So you are a rep? Oh yeah, look at that and I'm in.
Sylvia Moir :Giants territory, giants country. So you know, I really bring out the, I really bring out the Boston. So. So how did it go? Who bought the drinks in that Nashville bar? The fireman.
Steve Morreale:The second one, they did, they did. They did because they were already tuned, you know you know, okay, the hose draggers.
Sylvia Moir :Good to hear you, yep. So a couple of things.
Steve Morreale:We're talking to Sylvia Moir and she is in Marin County today. She is the under sheriff. I want to ask you a couple of things about leadership. Obviously Okay, you've done well. Look at, you were running the executive sessions over for Cal post.
Sylvia Moir :It's actually the executive development course.
Steve Morreale:Okay, so ED, so EDC, ed we won't use. It might be the same thing, maybe the same thing, Never know. But anyway you had the opportunity to look at it. I presume you may have had the opportunity to refine things. Got somebody for two weeks and you're trying to say look, here are the elements, here are the things we want you to consider to work on enhancing your leadership ability, your leadership of people, your leadership of self and your leadership of the organization and your mind. What are the important elements of leadership?
Sylvia Moir :The first is authenticity Be truly who you are, even if your approach is different. The other is increasing our capacity People. Even when we promote one and there are eight others on the list, they're going to be eight folks that are disappointed. I also believe the one that we don't talk about is endurance the intellectual, physical, emotional endurance that it takes to lead people. Particularly in today's day and age, when things are happening so rapidly and people are so energized and others are so inspired about issues, we have to have the endurance to stay in the game. We also have to have the intellectual endurance to go from one subject to another, to another, to another, throughout a day. It's really mind boggling.
Steve Morreale:It's mentally fatiguing.
Sylvia Moir :Yes, and we're saying, okay, we still need to be innovative and we still need to be creative. We need to stay present. Of course, you know, steve, I didn't even start with integrity, but absolutely it is integrity, it's endurance, it's authenticity, it's also the bearing and the tact to stay in it, to stay present, to stay in a place where we can notice what comes up for us. I'm a big meditation as a pathway to mindfulness, as a pathway to resilience, to address the acute and chronic and cumulative toxicity and suffering and staggering difficulty of this work. To stay in it and consistently evaluate how we show up. That's what it's about.
Sylvia Moir :I think overlaid, if we take the overarching, Steve, it's to just give a shit. And then how do we demonstrate that we give a shit? How do we measure that we give a shit? People want to be cared for by their leaders, challenged by their leaders, held accountable by their leaders and given the direction. There's a great navy saying that says it is not the lofty sail but the unseen wind that propels the ship. Yes, the leader is the sale. Everybody sees the leader. So understanding that you're being seen and evaluated is important, but knowing it is the wind and the enthusiasm and energy of our people that's driving us forward is really important.
Steve Morreale:You know, there's so many things going through my mind. I've written so many things down here and we're coming to the end. We've got a few minutes left but one of the things that's heartbreaking.
Steve Morreale:One of the things no, we'll get you back. One of the things that I wonder is you walking into Marin County Understanding that you work for an elective sheriff and that changes the dynamic? I understand that the sheriff has to, but has to do the job that the citizens expect, or there's going to be another sheriff but you come in. I'm curious to know whether you believe one of your roles, in your best assets as a leader, is to ask probing questions, to lead through questions, and sometimes when you ask that question and you let it linger, it drives the conversation. But I'm going to ask this. It's compound. I ask a lot of compound questions. To that I apologize, but when you first started and you were asking questions, were there some people who were not used to being asked questions for their own opinion, for their point of view, where you had to kind of change the culture?
Sylvia Moir :Yeah, without a doubt, when I entered Marin County I knew very clearly that I was able to influence strategy and policy and culture and climate in my role and fallen a grenade for my sheriff where he couldn't perhaps do it if necessary, haven't had to do that. Yet I understood my role to serve the sheriff and serve this organization and it's been an honor. I will say that there were some people that were caught off guard being asked a question because they hadn't had voice before, while others were not asked for their genuine opinion and their genuine insights. They thought they had to reframe it into what I wanted to hear and really I wanted to hear their truth. That takes time, it takes presence, it's giving them space to express themselves. It takes a certain bearing to give them that space and to really, I think, circle back to them with my understanding of what they were offering, leading with questions. Those are great. Book by, I think his name's Mark.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, you know it yeah it's fantastic.
Sylvia Moir :So then I would ask questions something like so what are the obstacles in place, from where you sit, for us to achieve this goal right, or to achieve the conclusion of this project? That puts people in a different space than saying why isn't this done? And then what it does is it elevates their thinking, it changes their perspective. They should have a clear line of sight between where they sit and what they want to achieve, and then we remove obstacles together. So I think it's absolutely essential, but there are some people that still just kind of look like why are you asking? And so I think that takes some kind of nuance and some kind of massaging of understanding in that space.
Steve Morreale:You know, it's interesting even in the classroom. When you're asking students questions or people who have worked for me, and you ask them questions, they look at you like well, you're in charge, you make the decision. You're missing the point, right, I don't know the damn book.
Sylvia Moir :You know, the best question I got in my undergrad was, you know, when we had the little blue book. You know you had to buy the blue book and bring a ton of pencils, yeah, so we were told to bring 10 of them. Oh my gosh, I studied my ass off, steve, and we get there and the professor said okay, you have an hour and a half for your final. The question is why.
Steve Morreale:What WTF right?
Sylvia Moir :Wait, what so? What a fascinating exploration into people, and that's the only question based on this semester long curriculum, super cool.
Steve Morreale:That's great. So you're listening to the Coptok podcast and we're talking to Sylvia Moore and she is at Marin County Sheriff's Office as the under sheriff. She is a podcast, or a fellow podcaster with Kristen Zeman, and I'd like you to talk about that and, more importantly, how you ended up connecting with Kristen.
Sylvia Moir :Oh my gosh, it's a great story. So we met years ago when she just emailed me out of the blue asking me questions about the Naval Postgraduate School and in a stroke of good luck I had time and I'd carved out the space to answer her email and I got into a lot of detail. She tells the story and bust my chops pretty hard, steve, that I use the word trousers. She thought that was amusing instead of pants. I went into a whole bunch of detail about Naval Postgraduate School, the academic rigor, the application process, what it would show in terms of her roles a local police executive in the Homeland Security Enterprise. Yeah, she picked out trousers as the most compelling piece of that whole interaction.
Sylvia Moir :That's pretty sexy, but we became good pals and I found she's delightful. She's a total pro. She's inspiring and inspired. She's just the real deal.
Steve Morreale:So you have her talking. Well, now she's down in Naples, Florida, which is not a bad place to be. Have you been there? I have Beautiful place, isn't it? It's a beautiful place. It is a little sweaty for me, Well yeah, you Californians, you know you could or the Arizona it's not sweating in Arizona, well they're sweating, but it's dry.
Sylvia Moir :Oh, it's a dry sweat. Oh, you're full of shit.
Steve Morreale:Oh, so you've got the podcast. Talk about it, the Hollow.
Sylvia Moir :Bunny? Yeah, so the Hollow Bunny really came out of Kristen and I having a conversation about somebody. And what is a Hollow Bunny? A Hollow Bunny. We were talking about someone that we didn't understand how they kept getting these positions of prominence, and so we were describing this person. I said, kristen, it's a Hollow Bunny. She said what do you mean? I said you know, at Easter, there's on the shelf is the beautiful package and the foil and inside it says a beautiful, delicious chocolate bunny. And so you open, you're totally excited, you open the package and you take off the foil and they got the little bow tie and I snap off in the ear and there's no solid chocolate is shit.
Sylvia Moir :So she said, oh well, I bite the butt. So then we had the conversation about the Hollow Bunny. But I think there are a lot of folks like that, Steve, that have this shiny impression but there's no substance, right. And so what we decided to do was explore this thing and talk about leadership and say how might we be able to invite some really interesting people to talk about their leadership journey and then to kind of fill someone's bunny. And so you know, it's been fun, it's been intellectually stimulating, it's been emotionally entertaining. I've just really enjoyed it. And being beside Kristen Zeman is never, it never sucks.
Steve Morreale:It's not a dull moment, I know, I know. Well, there were other terms that I come to mind when you say that the empty suit. We've had that with the empty suit. I just heard one that Jackass is a pool noodle. That's the first I've ever heard of that. I look, it's buoyant but it's sort of empty and it's light. Same sort of thing right, all right.
Sylvia Moir :I mean I've used man. He's a lot of frosting and not much cake.
Steve Morreale:I like that, I like it, I like it. So I want to kind of wind down and ask you. I had heard you talk about your fascination with emergency management. You explained that it's no longer your primary responsibility it's fire in Marin County but the idea of NIMS or critical incident management and having a plan talk about that, because I think that's so unusual.
Sylvia Moir :Well, in policing and law we were late adopters of NIMS ICS. We looked at fire and said how do they make sense of these complex critical incidents and these complex fires and incidents? And they make sense of it and what they have is a framework. What that did was I was really thrust into it in Sacramento and when I had the Metro ops command. We did this a lot through planned and unplanned events. The beauty is we understand there's an incident commander, there's a logistic section, operation section, planning and Intel and finance and admin. We know those are the core elements and then safety and PIO. The beauty is it's a framework. It can expand and contract with the complexity and the size of the incident.
Sylvia Moir :I became a believer because it was proven, reliable, time after time after time. Then that really I believe that there are frameworks we can use for everything. In fact, steve, I use a framework for how to study for a promotional exam on the written side and then how to use a framework in an oral presentation and promotional exam and that just respects kind of what a framework promises. It is proven. Nims ICS is proven. We're all mandated to really undergo the training but to use it in the field repeatedly has been magic in terms of how we actually engage, how we scope an incident and then how we do the demob and the after action stuff. It's really cool.
Steve Morreale:Well, in the tabletop exercise is to prepare you and to illuminate what's missing. I remember I won't say where, but up here was a state police organization that was going to do something at the airport. Everybody showed up and no one showed up with the radios. I know, I know, but like, oh boy, but it pointed out it's like an after action. Okay, what would we do with that? I would dare say even the Boston Marathon bombing, that that was such a cluster that worked to the advantage of the police, but there was no communication. People were calling into the command center on cell phones. They were going to the doors three times in a row because they weren't connected yet it was so quick. So there's lessons to be learned.
Sylvia Moir :Without a doubt, and that's why we have to be learning organizations. We're good at examining sentinel events, these major events. We're not so good at the near misses, and so National Policing Institute is doing some stuff related to how we examine near misses. We've got to explore that. The other thing is that, foundationally, human beings are consumers, producers of waste. We have to feed people and we got to find a place for them to go to the bathroom at its core as a base, and then we need basic things to perform. And then I have to say first net, and the first net envisioned by first responders for first responders, the private public partnership between the government and the one responder to the call for the work, at&t, to have preemption and priority in cell service, has been a game changer for us in policing and I have the great. It's been a game changer.
Steve Morreale:Yeah well, I had the experience of responding to ground zero on 9-11 and I think it was Verizon this time same sort of thing, but none of the phones would work. We couldn't communicate, and so I remember walking into the command center and saying here's your phone, right, here's the number, what do I do with it when I'm after? It'll work for a long time. Just here you go. Just an amazing ability to be able to communicate under extreme conditions and they were extreme there.
Sylvia Moir :So yeah, 10 years into this, the first net rollout. It's just been incredible in terms of what it's shown in terms of connectivity and really giving the tools and the technology for first responders to fulfill the mission and to communicate, and priority and preemption. Who would have thought? Incredible people that envisioned this and then the government to actually fund it and then AT&T to be the one to respond it to, then roll it out. It's been incredible. 25,000 agencies are using first net and it's really been a game changer with not only the priority and preemption but the rapid deployables that AT&T will roll out of SAT truck and some other deployables so that first responders can communicate and have connectivity and folks broadly get some cell service in a disaster or another incredible incident. It changes the lives of people. So I have mad respect for the folks that envisioned it and then those that actually made it happen. Really incredible.
Steve Morreale:Well, there are good things happening out there, for sure, and things we have to consider to identify problems and then work on some solutions. So we're winding down. There'll be a couple of questions I'm going to ask you. The first is if you had the opportunity to talk to somebody, was it either famous or made an impact in the world, dead or alive? Who would that be? Who would you want to chat? Whose brain would you want to pick?
Sylvia Moir :Well, I'd like to say so, crates, because that's how they said it in Ted and Bill's. Excellent.
Sylvia Moir :Adventure but I think I'd pick Victor Frankel. I'd really want to dive in and say came to this place where you were in a concentration camp and you saw so much suffering and so much death and Man's Search for Meaning was a book that changed my life as a human being. And then there's the first book we read in the Supervisory Leadership Institute in California. Wow, it changed my life. I'd want to really dive in with him and say what distinguishes one human being from another in terms of how you approach suffering and toxicity and trauma. And then what is it? What are the distinguishing characteristics? And he was a young man that then identified all of this and then offered it to the world through sufferings. He says to be suffering when it has meaning, and he took his suffering and it had incredible meaning. I'd want to talk to Victor Frankel Terrific.
Steve Morreale:As you continue to give to this industry and the people in it. What recommendations would you make to somebody who is sitting on the sidelines saying it is not worth stepping up and being a boss in this organization because of everything that's going around? You're shaking your head, I see. What do you think? What do you say to people to try to encourage them to raise their hand and step up?
Sylvia Moir :Steve, I'm a baseball person and when the game was on the line, we're up by one run and we're I was playing middle infield. There's a runner on third two outs. The game is on the line. There are people that say don't hit it to me, don't hit it to me, don't hit it to me. And there are people to say, go ahead, hit it right here. I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to field it. Everything I've done is prepared me for this as a member of this team. You hit it to me, I'll throw you out. Game on Red Sox wins right.
Sylvia Moir :And I would say don't give in to the false and narrative, false and negative narrative about policing. Leading people is one of the most gratifying things that we can do, and to give yourself fully to the profession of policing, to make a difference in the lives of people, is gratifying, it's important, it's meaningful and it's worth it. It is worth it because we are the people that run toward danger. You hit the ball to me. Okay, I may juggle it, but I will throw you out. I will run to the issue and we are.
Sylvia Moir :It's this really incredible thing. As police executives, we are not only responsible for safeguarding the people that are in our care, but we are responsible for sending them into harm's way. And it's not for everybody, but it's for the few of us that want to step up and make a difference. And it's okay to stumble, but we don't throw our sucker in the dirt and stomp off the playground. We stay there firmly and we do the work. I would say just believe in yourself and lead the way that is right and authentic for you and you can't go wrong.
Steve Morreale:I love. That Is on Sills bucket list.
Sylvia Moir :Bucket list. I got a few things. First of all, I want to meet the rock someday. Someday I'm going to meet the rock, I'm going to arm wrestle that chunk. So I won't, please, don't, please, don't invite him for that.
Sylvia Moir :But really I think there are a number of places that I want to go. I had the great experience of going to Vietnam, in Japan, this year and got to experience some incredible things, and by myself and traveling solo in Japan was really incredible. I got to experience the culture there and I engage in some Buddhist ceremonies. I would say that and I want to continue being a person that adds value, that consistently learns, and also I want to laugh to like cry my face off, you know, and continue to be around my tribe that I love and they love me, and you know, get to laugh my face off for real.
Steve Morreale:That's great. It has been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.
Sylvia Moir :I have to say we've been talking to Sylvia Moir
Steve Morreale:We've been talking to Sylvia Moir, undersheriff at Marin County Sheriff in California. I want to thank you so much. You have the last word.
Sylvia Moir :Steve, the profession of policing needs you. I appreciate that you invite such an array of folks to dive into these issues and we can just be real and have a conversation, so folks that are listening to be on their treadmill or on their bike or out walking or wherever they are commuting and learn a little bit about policing and the perspective of others and the way that you do it is really, really important. So thank you, Steve.
Steve Morreale:I think so much. Well, that's it. Another episode of The CopD oc Podcast is in the can. Stay tuned for more episodes. We'll be talking to you very soon. Please continue to do your work. Remember how important policing is. You do things running towards danger when other people run the other way, so stay safe. Keep up the good work.
