TCD: Peter J. Forcelli, ATF Executive (retired) and NYPD Homicide Detective.

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 5 - Episode 123

From the hard-knock streets of New York to the high-stakes realm of federal law enforcement, Pete Forcelli’s journey epitomizes the life of a quintessential lawman. This episode peels back the curtain on an illustrious career marked by courage and integrity, as Pete, a retired ATF executive and former NYPD homicide detective, recounts the days that forged his path. Together, we navigate through his vivid memories of community policing, the intricacies of transitioning from New York's finest to the ATF, and the leadership challenges that tested his mettle.

Pete's tale takes a gripping turn as he recounts the emotional upheaval experienced during and after the September 11 attacks, and the profound partnerships between federal agents and prosecutors. His accounts provide a rare lens into the unspoken battles and survival instincts that come with the badge. As we probe deeper, Pete opens up about the perplexing inertia he encountered with the legal system in Phoenix and the unyielding pursuit of justice in the face of bureaucratic resistance—a true testament to the real-life grit over glamor in law enforcement.

The episode crescendos with the heart-wrenching narrative of whistleblowers within the ranks, who risk everything in defiance of wrongdoing. Pete details the eye-opening saga of "Operation Fast and Furious" from his book and the chilling effects of whistle-blower retaliation, all while maintaining a resolve that commands respect. This conversation does more than recount a decorated career; it's an education in the sacrifices made behind the badge and the indelible legacy of a man whose convictions never wavered. Join us for an unforgettable glimpse into the life and lessons of Pete Forcelli, whose story is as impactful as it is instructive.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro - Outro : 0:02

Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopD oc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr . Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopD oc Podcast.

Steve Morreale: 0:31

Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you from South Carolina today and we begin another episode of the cop doc podcast. And today we go down to Herndon, Virginia, and we're going to talk to a colleague of mine, Pete Forcelli. He is a retired executive for the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives. You know they changed it to ATFE, they don't use the E. It's silent. It's a silent E, it's a silent. We had some conversations before which I found very, very enlightening and refreshing. You are now an author, you were an NYPD officer, a detective in homicide, and then you left for an agency ATF in New York 9-11 around , ironically and you rose to become an executive there, but along the way there were some bumps in the road. You have written a book, the Deadly Path. It is out very soon and I want to talk about that. But before we start there, tell us about what drew you to policing in the first place, Pete.

Peter Forcelli: 1:30

I mean, I grew up in the Yonkers, which is just north of the Bronx, so I kind of span the Yonkers Bronx my whole life, well, at least most of my life, over 40 years. But growing up I remember being a kid. But I think I was about eight or nine years old and you know I lived in an area that was changing. We were one of six white families left in the neighborhood. There was a housing project across the street from us. Most of the buildings around us were section eight. There was an narcotics deal that was happening in the projects across the street and it turned into a gunfight. I remember there was crime scene, crime scene tape and everything. It was weird, like I saw, the police were the only people who can go on the other side of the tape. And I don't know, when you're a kid, you kind of I guess wow.

Intro - Outro : 2:04

I want to be yeah, exactly.

Peter Forcelli: 2:06

Like they know, they know what's going on, like and I don't know when I can't find out. I guess the access that they had, it wasn't the shooting that I thought was cool, but it was just like that they had control of the situation, they knew what was happening. So it was kind of intriguing. And then I'm not going to lie, you know, I watched Starsky and Hutch, I watched Kojak.

Steve Morreale: 2:23

We all did. A few cop shows.

Peter Forcelli: 2:24

CHIPS.

Peter Forcelli: 2:25

Yeah, yeah, and you know the funny thing about that is that you, when you go into the profession, you know, and you're young and naive, you think it's all excitement and then you very quickly realize no, it's a lot of paperwork. I remember an old timer told me and I agree with it, it's 95 percent boredom and then 5 percent excitement and terror. But yeah, so I went into it, you know, not realizing the paperwork aspects of it, I thought it was going to be a lot more foot chases and all the excitement and everything. You adapt and you start to realize things. And then the other thing is you go in thinking you're going to change the world and then you very quickly realize no, you can't do that, but you can change a life.

Peter Forcelli: 2:57

You know, at a time, by doing things and by doing the right thing for people, you know whether it's helping them find justice, helping them during a medical emergency, helping them in a car accident. You know you deal with people that they're worse. So I mean to be able to help them in those circumstances. It was just incredibly gratifying to me.

Steve Morreale: 3:13

Well, it's alluring and I think we join with the best of intentions and then reality sets in and there is an awful lot of boredom, and ironically, even in New York City. But when you look at 100% of a week, 100% of a month, there's only 10, 15, maybe 20%, and that's high. Where you're actually putting hands on the rest is interacting with people and taking reports and stopping cars and just kind of hanging out right.

Peter Forcelli: 3:39

Pete, oh yeah, no, absolutely. And look, one of the things I really enjoyed like somebody asked me, if you go back and do any of the 35 years over, what would it be? Truthfully, I love being a detective homicide detective. I love being an agent. I actually like being in charge of an office because I felt like I can empower my people. But being a beat cop, like just walk in the beat, because we did back then in the house of projects, we walked, yes, patrol, just talking to the people. And the thing is, with the projects there's a lot of folks that have misconceptions about the projects. Oh, they're bad. Well, yeah, there's a small percentage of people that live there that ruin it for everybody else, but when you're talking to the good people, they appreciate you. That's something I think that's lost in today's discussion. It was just again 35 years of a very rewarding career. That was the part that I actually loved the most in hindsight.

Steve Morreale: 4:20

Yeah, well, you know it's interesting Walking around and being on the beat and getting to know the people. You can be completely bored out of your minds, but to get to know people, especially if you're personable, who cares who you are? I'm Officer Forsselly or I'm Pete. What's going on? Tell me what's going on, how can I help you? It's those conversations, the way we relate, much like when we get on the phone at first. You know where are you from, what you do. We're trying to make connections and even if somebody is in the projects or in section eight housing, there's still some great people, some well-meaning people, as you say, and that's the majority of people.

Peter Forcelli: 4:52

Well, I remember, like you know, there were some old timers that lived the Throggs Neck Projects, which was where I did a lot of my foot post. So I worked in other projects as well, but that's where I spent most of my time on foot. And the old timers called me Pete. There was no, and that was because I. They obviously asked, but I got to know them, so they'd play dominoes and they'd be sitting on a street BS and but that trust.

Peter Forcelli: 5:09

yeah, that trust, though paid back in drugs, because they would come up to me and tell me things. I remember there was one instance where there was a guy who was wanted for a murder for a long time. I think it was a concept he owned. I don't remember his first time. I think he went a bit Tyrone, he was wearing a dress, he was. He was dressing as a woman to evade capture. So I remember, when the old timers comes up, have you never done that, Pete? Not, not lately.

Peter Forcelli: 5:29

You put on too much weight to get away with it. But he came up to me and he goes hey, I heard the Bronx homicide guys were here looking for this guy. I just want to let you know, because I know you, he'd live in this apartment and he's dressing up as a woman. So I passed this information on to the homicide guys. They get him that night. But it was because of that interaction. He saw the homicide guys. He didn't know them, he didn't feel comfortable going up to them and talking to them, but he felt comfortable coming to me. So I think that's the thing that's missing.

Peter Forcelli: 5:50

But what it really was was community policing.

Steve Morreale: 5:52

Yes, it was, it was which worked. It does work. It still works, Still works. We have to break down that divide. So I guess the question I would have is see you're in Yonkers, why didn't you come a Yonkers cup and instead go to NYPD?

Peter Forcelli: 6:05

Well, it's a funny story. I did eventually take the Yonkers police test. Back when I took the NYPD test. You could take the test at age 16 and a half. I was in 10th grade when I took the NYPD test. I went down to the Taft High School in the Bronx, took it, passed it. I later took the test for Yonkers. Didn't do well enough on the list to get hired Full disclosure I'm not the brightest guy, I'm not an academic.

Peter Forcelli: 6:26

And then later I even explored, I had like some discussions with the Greenberg New York Police Department. It was a good department and almost took a job with them. But by that time I really laid a foundation in New York. I love the job. That job I just kind of like turned down. Yonkers never called me. I never got the nod. They didn't want you. Yeah, they didn't need me. But Greenberg I probably could have taken that job. I mean, it never gave me the written offer but by that time I just I really liked what was going on. I love the cops I work with. Look, and you notice some cops are clowns. I mean a very, very small percentage. They give the organizations or the precinct bad names, but some of the people I work with are some of the most noble human beings I've ever ran into in my travels as a human being on this planet. I agree.

Steve Morreale: 7:09

And what you find is just because somebody wears the badge and has the same patch doesn't mean you're going to take them home to Momma. Most of the people you will, but there's a couple people that I can recall, and certainly that you can recall, that are on that list that you say I don't know why they're doing what they're doing, because they don't have the same mindset that I do Right.

Peter Forcelli: 7:25

But I'll tell you another thing too. It was like, look, I had a very good career, I'm proud of a lot of things and I, look, I went through some tough times as well. But my success was because of the things I stole from the good guys. Because I mean, you know this, you go through, you meet people who have different skills and things that they do techniques and I'm like, well, I like that, I'm gonna use that. And then you see some people that show their backside and you're like, you know something? I don't wanna be like that.

Peter Forcelli: 7:46

So if I was to say that my career was successful, I would really attribute it to those cops I met early on in my career who I just admired and wanted to emulate. So I stole those good characteristics, I tried to cast aside the bad. I'm sure I've had some bad habits and people might think things of me that I'm not aware of, but I always try to do my best and that's really all you can do. But I mean, I owe any success I had to the people I worked with early in my career, who shaped me.

Steve Morreale: 8:10

Okay, so you understand that a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is about leadership and we'll go into that, because I wanna talk about the book and about your experience with ATF in a moment but what you're saying is identical in many ways to how you formulate your own leadership style. You understand that you're looking at leaders that you like, that you wanna emulate, and you're looking at leaders that you say, when it's my turn, I am never gonna be like that asshole, and so we create almost a customized version of ourselves through the lived experiences. Is that a fair assessment?

Peter Forcelli: 8:41

Yeah, and look, if anybody was to ask me, hey, what advice would you give me as an emerging leader? I would say look, bring on to the things that you see that you believe in, emulate the leaders that you respect, and look at the bad habits, because you'll learn just as much from the bad ones as you do from the good ones. Cast those aside. But as a leader, I always found that, look, I was a work in progress. I never felt like I've attained my ultimate leadership capabilities and now I'm ready to lead the charge. I wanted to be called out. I wanted to have those discussions.

Peter Forcelli: 9:06

When I was a special agent in charge, I had two ASACs. It was funny because we occasionally have. I wouldn't call them arguments because they weren't arguments, but we would have heated discussions and sometimes at the end of that discussion be like, hey, guys, I heard you, but this is what we're doing. And then there were other times where it was like, hey, you're right. And it was weird, because to some folks it was like it was shocking, or then I would let people push back.

Steve Morreale: 9:25

Have a voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter Forcelli: 9:26

But I worked for some great leaders and we could talk about them more over the years and I just I adore them. They were so impactful to me that I wanted to be able to pay it forward and be as impactful to my people, and none of them were like leader that led by pointing to the star on their shoulder or the stripes on their sleeve. They were just good human beings who led with their heart and led by example and cared for their people like they were family.

Steve Morreale: 9:50

Well, we're talking to Pete Forcelli. He is a retired NYPD and ATF executive, has written a book called The Deadly Path. We're gonna get to that in a moment. But, pete, as I'm looking at you, I have the benefit of looking at you on video, even though this is an audio broadcast. I have to say, like me, you're a whole bunch smarter than you look.

Peter Forcelli: 10:07

You just got them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's good, because I was told I have a face for radio, so I'm glad this is not on radio.

Steve Morreale: 10:14

So, Pete, you spent a number of years with NYPD, rising to be a detective, and a detective in a very important unit, a homicide unit and then you decided maybe I'm gonna leave here and go to the feds. What made you do that?

Peter Forcelli: 10:25

Couple things really. In my last year as a homicide detective I had a case that went to trial. That actually started before I got into the homicide squad, because in New York the detectives in the precinct catch the homicide and the homicide squad comes in to help them basically subject matter reps. So I had a case that finally went to trial in my last year. It was a murderer of a four-year-old kid. Kid named Joseph Dauphin. He soiled himself. He was being babysat by a stepfather. The stepfather changed him as soon as the stepfather changes the kid's diaper. The kid soiled himself again. Kid was mentally handicapped. So the guy went into a rage and beat the kid to death Around 2000,. The case went to trial and after trial his killer was sentenced to four years in prison. Now, yeah, exactly Now. The time when I was in Bronx homicide we started this new program called Operation Trigger Lock where we would go after people who got arrested with firearms if they had an underlying federal charge and we would flip them because they'd be looking at substantial time From the feds.

Steve Morreale: 11:17

Yeah, exactly that's a great way to squeeze people Like you're not going local, buddy, You're going somewhere else.

Peter Forcelli: 11:23

Well, it was two-fold, Because in the Bronx they averaged 45 days in jail in Rikers Island for being a felon in possession of a firearm. Federally they averaged 46 months, but usually not in New York City. So you weren't going into jail where you'd see people from the neighborhood. You were going maybe to Lompoc, California, Miami, Florida, Sandstone yeah, Minnesota.

Steve Morreale: 11:43

Minnesota was the favorite place that I would suggest. Hey, is your girlfriend good at travel? You know the gamer thing? You'd be messing with them, because have you ever heard of Sandstone, Minnesota? It's cold up there, it is. Do you think she can fly back and forth like once a month? You think she can afford that?

Peter Forcelli: 11:57

Anyway, I'm kidding, but you know it's the head game, so. But what was going on is we were using those felon in possession cases to flip defendants and build CCE cases, rico cases. So I was working a lot with ATF almost on a daily basis. I worked extensively with the Drug Enforcement Task Force, red Rum Group in New York, which yeah, red Rum Murder backwards, I know right the best investigative team in New York City of any agency was DEA's Red Rum Group in the 90s in early 2000s the best.

Peter Forcelli: 12:24

So but seeing that I could have more impact on really public safety with the sentencing and everything, I was like why am I staying here in New York? I love being a homicide detective. I love the people I worked with. I can retire in five years. But I knew I wasn't gonna because I love the job and it was scary to leave and go to another agency. Having that impact on what I wanted to do is career. It's a calling it kind of nudged me into saying you know something, I'm gonna leave. Took a huge pay cut in the beginning, went over to ATF, went through the academy, which I was 34 years old. I was a weightlifter, not a runner, and do you know the academies? It's all calisthenics and running.

Steve Morreale: 12:57

I went the same one as you did. I actually I was in the last class at DEA, that was at FLETC, and then we went to Quantico, so I know exactly where you went.

Peter Forcelli: 13:04

Yeah, yeah, running through the woods at Glynco, but it was look, it was a good move in hindsight Wasn't an easy decision at the time. And I was married. My wife had to come along with me, my kids. I had to go away for six months with young kids. I had no regrets because I felt like I was able to just do more in pursuit of keeping people safe.

Steve Morreale: 13:21

It's a big step. We're talking of Pete Forcelli, we're talking about his transition from NYPD to ATF. It always struck me and you know my background I was an MP, I was a local police officer, I was a detective and then I went to DEA and I always felt that DEA in the federal agencies, DEA and ATF were the most friendly to local law enforcement. I agreed I always would scratch my head. So many of our colleagues came from a police agency into the feds and adapted and adopted the new idea. And yet you'd also have people who would work with you if this is not your same experience who were not previous local officers and sometimes would begin to look down on local officers. And I would have to call them in and say listen to me, see those guys over there with the badge. I don't care what color their badge, where they are, what the patch is, we're in this together. Don't you ever look down on local officers? I could never have had that feeling.

Peter Forcelli: 14:11

Why is that the most? One time in ATF Academy, how we were better than them, was actually a federal probation officer and I' m just scratching my head like you're kidding me, right? But yeah, and look, there's one other agency I'll throw into the mix. As far as being great partners with state and local is the Marshals.

Intro - Outro : 14:25

Yes, when it comes to hunting down fugitives those folks.

Peter Forcelli: 14:27

That's their baliwick. They're excellent at it, right, sure. But yeah, I mean I never thought of the FBI, because my interactions with them while I'll say I work with a couple FBI guys who were great is they had this kind of institutional arrogance. Almost Forgive me for saying that I wiretapped get after this, but they're almost cult-like sometimes in the way they operate, where DEA and ATF were more like hey man, we're just here with you, We'll get in the gutters at night on surveillance. Our headlights on our cars work because we use them when at the bureau.

Peter Forcelli: 14:55

You'd see them at meetings at US Attorney's Office and rarely out in the field, and again, not always. I don't want to paint with a broad brush.

Steve Morreale: 15:01

But I mean, certainly I had similar experience great people, but sometimes it struck me that their organizational philosophy was that we and our mission is way more important than any other agency, including brother and sister federal agencies, which just irked me. Listen, Peter, I called you yesterday and I got an advance copy of your book and very often I'll gloss through them and I'll read bits and pieces of it. You had me, you had me with your story. You had me with your story because I could relate, I could understand what you went through, the good and the bad, the highs and the lows. If you remember, yesterday I called you and I said you suck because you made me read a book when I very rarely have the time to read a book because I'm writing and reading and getting ready for these things and teaching. But you had me right to the end. And so let's talk about you going to ATF. You, apparently, when you joined ATF, it was right around 9-11, 2001. So talk about that to start.

Peter Forcelli: 15:56

I got sworn in June 2001. June 4th was actually the day I raised my hand. I was sworn in in Six World Trade, which wasn't one of the two towers for those folks. It's nearby.

Peter Forcelli: 16:04

I know it Exactly, it was 13 story building. It was the customs house. So on 9-11, I was actually on my way down to the Southern District of New York when the first plane hit and I didn't see it because even though those are tallest buildings in New York City, there's plenty of skyscrapers between them and the FDR drive, which was where I was, and I got a phone call from my boss saying a plane hit the North Tower. You need to get there right away. And I wasn't going for court or something. I was going to a routine meeting with the US Attorney's office, had a great relationship with SDNY solid, solid office, and I remember when I got down there because I'm again, you pointed it out earlier, you were correct, I'm not the sharpest knife in Detroit- so I thought it would be like a Cessna or some Piper Cub or some really small place, and we've seen that happen before.

Steve Morreale: 16:42

That's what I thought at first, right.

Peter Forcelli: 16:44

So when I get there even when I pulled up because I parked on the other side of Seven World Trade but I had a look over the building, kind of like when you get too close to a traffic light, you know what I mean and you have to lean forward I remember looking forward and seeing somebody waving a white shirt or whatever a white cloth and thinking to myself, wow, I wonder how these folks are going to get out, because they were above the fire and I was like, well, I remember 93 World Trade Center bombing helicopters came, they got out of the car and figured let me see what I can do to help. And what you're doing at that point because it was just such a huge scene is you're just filling in whatever hole is in front of you. At that time so I was mostly telling people move along, move along so the fire apparatus could get in and ambulances and police cars. Anyway, as the day went on, I watched the female EMT get killed by debris when the South Tower got hit, saw some NYPD cops that I worked with walk into the South Tower right before it collapsed, knowing that they lost their lives instantly. I wound up running north and ducking under a fire truck which is stupid because fire trucks not going to support the weight of a collapsing tower and I was under there for probably seconds felt like minutes. I spent three days there on the scene and then afterwards I dealt with some things, man, because you know I had tried out for NYPDZ issue the guys I watched walk into the South Tower. Two of them tried out with me, vinny Danes and John Coglin. I got weeded out because I was afraid of heights.

Peter Forcelli: 17:56

So there was this weird thing that I just, in the days that followed, felt really guilty. Why am I still here and those guys are gone? Maybe if I had the courage to climb the Verrazano Bridge they did, I would have been there with them Like they were good men. Why do they deserve to die and I'm still here? It got to the point where I'd never missed a police funeral in my career. If a cop got killed in New York, I went. If a cop got killed in neighboring jurisdiction, I went. I couldn't even go to these guys' funerals because I felt so guilty for being a survivor. So anyway, as time went on, I was still working cases, I was doing good stuff, but I was required a lot to drive by Brown Zero, because the US Attorney's Office is about half mile from there. As the crow flies, maybe less. And then to get to our office in Red Hook I would have, the easiest way was to drive through the Holland Tunnel and then go through the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.

Peter Forcelli: 18:39

I was driving past Brown Zero all the time and it really got old. I would get choked up and it just it wasn't something that was sitting well with me. So I put in to transfer and get out of New York because you can't just leave to go to an agent position. So I wanted that putting in for supervisory position. So I put in for jobs in Savannah, jacksonville, dallas and Phoenix where the opening's at the time and I wound up getting selected in Phoenix and, look, I love being an agent in New York. Working cases with SDNY was phenomenal because they were just great people and just fully engaged in working cases and, look, if you brought them a case that needed some work, they'd say, hey, we'll take the case, but we want you to do.

Steve Morreale: 19:11

A, b and C yeah, they give you some guys. So, having read your book, we know what it is that a jury, a judge, will consider and we need you to work on this angle, that angle. That's the way I think a relationship between prosecutors and investigators should be. I remember having an argument with somebody in the Newark office and I worked with SDNY. But I remember going down one day and I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but he was trying to tell me how to investigate. I finally said to him listen to me, I don't know who you think you're talking. You get a pair of balls at some point, but I don't tell you how to prosecute, don't you tell me how to investigate. You can suggest, but don't order me. You understand the difference and, believe me, that pushback was all we needed to have a very great relationship from that point forward, because he knew how hard or how soft, how much latitude he had to push me and not collaborate with me. You understand, I think.

Peter Forcelli: 20:01

I do, but let's talk about the importance of that. If you're a federal agent, there are things that you often need that you can't do as a federal agent, that you need that partnership. All right, I need a court order to take a guy out of MCC so he can drive around the neighborhoods with us and point out the addresses where they committed these robberies. As an agent, you can't do that without an AUSA. You need subpoenas, you need to do an investigative grand jury. That partnership is vital because if you're not getting that, you'll never reach your full potential as an investigator.

Peter Forcelli: 20:28

Because if every time you try to work a case, you run into an obstacle or a wall, then you don't learn these nuances, you don't learn how to make these greater cases. So what I always tell people is because I worked some cases I'm really proud of, but it wasn't me alone, it was a team. And if, exactly, and if the AUSAs on those cases had told me no, I would have never been able to have those successes. So it was a joint success and that's why, like in hindsight, some of my relationships with the AUSAs from the Southern District of New York are tighter than they were with some of the agents I worked with Because you work with them on a bigger case more intimately than you do your own group sometimes.

Steve Morreale: 21:02

Well, very often, when you start doing that work, you spend more time in their offices than you do in your own office

Peter Forcelli: 21:10

I know between the Triggerlock cases we were doing and the RICO stuff, which is exactly why I was going to SDNY on 9-11. Because I was working with them when I was in Bronx Homicide and I was kind of a weird story when I got sworn in with ATF. I took a case that I was working with, redrum from NYPD and my boss at Bronx Homicide. It was a home invasion case and he was like look, we're the homicide squad, you've put a lot of work into this, take it, he goes. I don't care, you give me a gift, he goes. If your agency won't lead, take it, bring it back. So I have my first meeting with my brand new group supervisor, who's an old timer. The guy's name was Jerry Rafa, love him. And I tell him look, I have this case. It's a home invasion case. We think these guys were involved in a bunch of home invasions. You could have said hey, listen, pal, you're a brand new agent, you're going to do what we said. He's like yeah, keep doing it, keep working the case.

Steve Morreale: 21:52

But you walked in season, you walked in with connections, you walked in with knowledge, so I can understand why you got that. I was 30 years old when I became an agent and here I am Got to work through it, but ultimately remember my boss, my best boss. I was John Cipriano, a former customs guy. He has passed since, but I remember him calling me in about a year or two into Newark and he said to me Steve, I want you to go to Elizabeth and I want you to make a case. That was his guiding and I looked at him and I said what do you mean? What kind of case? I don't care. Whatever case you can. I'm hearing that Elizabeth needs some help, so go and find out who's the target they can't hit. I don't care what it is, go do it. And that was the guidance. And he was a guy who I said I want to emulate him when I become a boss, and every single one of the people in my DEA group became managers and executives under his tutelage, and you understand that.

Peter Forcelli: 22:40

Well, I tell you, I'm very good friends with a gentleman who lives in a town nearby His name's.

Peter Forcelli: 22:46

Derek Maltz. He was a supervisor in the Drug Enforcement Task Force back when I worked with the Red Room guys and they loved him. And it's funny because if you talk to people who worked in DEA in New York 20 years ago when Derek was there he's gone 20 years now roughly they light up when you talk about him because he's one of those leaders who empowered people, who wasn't a bully, who had the authority. If you wanted to make people's lives difficult, he didn't.

Peter Forcelli: 23:09

He's actually one of the people who I tried to steal some of that skill from, and you was in my dealings with Michael.

Steve Morreale: 23:14

He is still banging the gong, one of the loudest people as it relates to the fentanyl crisis in America. But John Maltz, his dad, ran the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Task Force, where you would pair New York PD with State Police and DEA and other agencies. Amazing task force, yeah.

Peter Forcelli: 23:31

And his father's a legend, and so is Derek. Yes, I know he made his dad proud yeah, I did, but I love the guy.

Steve Morreale: 23:36

He's a great guy, he did so listen, you end up saying I'll go, I'm going to Phoenix and you're going to bring some of the ideas you bring to Phoenix from New York, and along the way it sounds like you had a little bit of a brush up that people would say to you you know, that may be the way we do it in New York, but we don't do it here. And I hear that when you go from one place to another you began to have some issues. You were hearing from your people about the difficulties they had with the US Attorney's Office accepting cases, sort of dodging cases, sitting on cases, very frustrating. So let's go down that road because, talking to Pete Ferselli, he's retired former NYPD homicide investigator and ATF agent group supervisor and ultimately an executive and you ran into some problems.

Peter Forcelli: 24:23

Well it's weird Pete I remember my first weekend in Phoenix.

Peter Forcelli: 24:26

You know I'm new and look, I always believe when you're the boss, you go in and you need to observe for a while. I know that each field division has its own nuances and their regional differences and there's the 9th Circuit versus the 2nd Circuit. So I didn't go in like a bull in a china shop. I figured let me watch and observe. And the first thing is on the first weekend out there I get a call from one of my agents who got a call from a licensed gun dealer who said, hey, man got a guy just came in here, he's got a bag full of money and he asked for all of the AK variant rifles we have on the shelf. So like in New York, something like that would have been front page news. So like, okay, muster the troops, we go out there. This transaction happens like because the dealer would wait for us to get to the parking lot and then look, if we couldn't be there they wouldn't make the sale or they would delay the sale to get there.

Steve Morreale: 25:05

So they had good relationships.

Peter Forcelli: 25:06

That was community policing with the licensed dealers 1000% so, but anyway, we get out there and we watch this transaction take place. One of my agents goes in and like he's shopping you know undercover, you know, but although not fully undercover, you know what I mean and we watch these 13 AK-47s get loaded into a U-Haul and it starts to head down the I-10. We follow it. We don't want to stop the car in the parking lot, we don't want to burn the gun dealer. So we get the guys out of the car, we separate them. They lie through their teeth about where they were coming from. Different stories. You know just what cops do Basic policing, nothing fancy.

Intro - Outro : 25:36

So exactly, exactly.

Peter Forcelli: 25:37

Exactly Correct. So in New York we would have called an AUSA and it would have been like, hey, all right, bring them in, We'll write up a complaint, we'll charge them. So now, granted, I'm in Phoenix, different animals, so calls made and AUSA is like all right, let them go. We can consider indicting it in the future, which bothered me a little bit, because here you got guys that were smuggling a lot of guns illegally and you know they're armed now, and if I have to go and have my people go arrest them later they could be armed again. So you're putting your people in harms way twice. But again, I'm new, I'm like, okay, well, no worries, we'll just do this, bit my tongue, we let them go. I would watch that scenario unfold again and again and again. The problem is there was never Haywool and Died and Later never came.

Peter Forcelli: 26:14

I remember opening up our case management system. My group had 448 open cases, which is unheard of just open, just sitting there. So I start scrolling through some of them and I see that it referred to the prosecutor for a decision Six cases within my first couple weeks to get through. Them had literally sat there waiting a decision so long that the statute of limitations expired. Yeah, so then within a few weeks of my arrival I get summoned up to the special agent in charge's office, which, as you know, is kind of a big deal. You know had special agent in charge in a Phoenix Field Division was a guy named Bill Noll nice man, perhaps one of the nicest human beings I ever worked for, but didn't have a lot of field experience. And he was one of those guys who was a good guy, who wanted to just make everybody happy, and that meant external partners as well, you know. So he wasn't big into ruffling feathers yeah.

Peter Forcelli: 26:55

Yeah, so who comes to this meeting is the chief of the Phoenix Criminal Division, nice man named John Tucci and the chief of the gun unit at the time, a woman named Rachel Hernandez, who was not very pleasant. So the meeting is called because she's upset. Because ATF was using an informant who she said was not credible and we had like a lot of cases weighing on this informant's information. So she said he's not credible, we're not using him anymore.

Peter Forcelli: 27:16

I was pretty heated because of the relationships I had a Southern District so I figured my agents were bringing her substandard cases. They weren't doing their homework. So I went downstairs and I'm not going to say I read the riot act to them, because that's not how I was brought to lead by the men we spoke about earlier, but I said hey, man, what's going on here? Like we got a problem and look, it wasn't entirely on US Attorney's Office's fault In some instances. My agents were taking a case report to them and giving it to them. Say, hey, take a look at this, let me know what you think, rather than selling the case, because you have to go there and sell the case so I have them deposit on my desk and, if I can interrupt and follow up on it I know that that was an issue.

Steve Morreale: 27:49

Like guys, it's your case, push it, yes.

Peter Forcelli: 27:51

No, yeah, absolutely. But anyway, I have this pile of cases in front of me and I go through them and the informants information was spot on. So I call this woman back and I'm like hey, wait a minute, you know this. A lot of cases hanging into balance. If you decide the blacklist is CI, these traffickers are going to get a pass. And I looked at the cases and the information that he's given is dead on the money. So she's like Well, no, no, you don't understand. He was moved with emergency witness assistance program funds. Doj policy says we can't use him. That didn't sound right. So I call the victim witness assistance person in Southern District who handled some of the most significant cases that DOJ had run mob cases. She's like that's not true, pete, there's no such policy. Just have to notify the defense that he was paid this money if they asked. And then I confirmed it with someone at main justice who she gave me a name of. But then I went back to this woman again and she's like you don't understand, this informant wears too many gold chains. The jury will never relate to him Finally. So we're not using him.

Peter Forcelli: 28:40

So now, in addition to the cases where they weren't indicting based on car stops and whatnot. Now we had an informant who was blacklisted unjustifiably. That led to many, many cases getting dismissed. So I was like, all right, still we have to find a way to move on. I tried to argue with her. You know how it works with the US Attorney's Office to make a decision, you're stuck with that decision. So then we had some other cases where one example was there were a bunch of people killed with a firearm that was smuggled into Mexico 21 people, including four cops. The gun was purchased two days earlier. Right Now in ATF, if the gun shows up at a crime scene less than two years after it was purchased from a retail purchaser kind of a hint that it probably was a traffic gun 48 hours is unbelievable.

Steve Morreale: 29:19

So in that particular case, in that particular case.

Peter Forcelli: 29:21

We interviewed the straw purchaser. He confessed. We interviewed the trafficker who brought it to Mexico, he confessed they declined the case because the gun was in Mexico, saying the body of the crime was in Mexico. The body of the crime on a straw purchase in case is the form that they lied on. So I mean this went on and on and on for years where there was one case. I remember, I guess one of my agents, mario Mario, what's the status of this case? And to your point earlier, he was not doing the follow up he should have done. So we, I have to take responsibility to bore some responsibility there. So he does, he goes, has the follow up with the assistant US Attorney that has the case. Now our case reports are like a medium blue, like a little darker than a, like a powder blue dress shirt, you know, like a French blue, like the NYPD uniform shirt.

Steve Morreale: 30:00

You mean the jacket, the jacket, the jacket, yes, the jacket.

Peter Forcelli: 30:03

He comes back after going to meet with this prosecutor and puts it on my desk. He goes boss. I just don't know what to say. The blue jacket, the cover was bleached paper, white like typing paper, white from sitting in the sun on this AUSA's windowsill untouched for almost a year. So this is the kind of stuff that we were dealing with on a daily basis. So I had a formulae to partnership with the Arizona Attorney General, which didn't do gun cases because they saw the gravity of what was happening with the guns flowing into Mexico. But meanwhile the federal prosecutors, whose duty it was to work those cases, couldn't have cared less.

Steve Morreale: 30:33

But I'm sorry to cut you off, but don't you see it happening again at the border?

Peter Forcelli: 30:38

I see it at the border I see it in Chicago, I see it in Washington DC right now. There was recently a press conference where the United States Attorney for the District said we're not going to arrest our way out of this situation. Well, when you're allowing rampant crime to go unabated and you're not punishing criminals, they're going to continue to offend. I mean, this is the word gets out, not rocket science.

Steve Morreale: 30:57

Yeah, nothing's going to happen, so just do it. I know yeah.

Peter Forcelli: 31:00

So it's more than just the border, and it's unfortunate because the heartbreaking thing for me was I would watch my agents do things the right way, and, granted, they should have been more aggressive in following up on their cases, but you got to remember, before I got there they were beaten down by being told no all the time too. So in some ways they threw their hands up. But just knowing they would never reach their full potential as investigators because of that lack of engagement by the US Attorney's office to me as a leader was not an easy thing to swallow.

Steve Morreale: 31:25

So at some point in time, there was a man named John that had sort of had enough, ended up going and blowing the whistle on some things that were going on at the border. But as I read your book, you sat back and watch what they were doing to this person who, in your mind, was but was doing the right thing for the right reason, because no one was listening, people were getting killed and you weren't able to do your job and ultimately you made a phone call to congressional office in support of this John, and that changed your life, I understand. So tell us about it In late 2009,.

Peter Forcelli: 31:58

My group's mission was changed to home invasions because Phoenix was leading the country and home invasions and kidnappings and I had some familiarity with working those cases with the Red Room guys in New York. So that's when the group known as Group Seven the group that had Fast and Furious, which was not located in our office space, it was located at an offsite and I had never met John Dodson. But their job became the Mexico-bound firearms trafficking case. So I would hear these rumblings at meetings about guns walking and you know not, people not stopping cars and I never in a million years envisioned that they were letting them ride off into the sunset. I just think they were doing something different and I'm not arrogant enough to think I know everything. And when I would question, hey, what are you guys doing? I was always told hey, pete, don't worry about, we got it covered, we're doing something different. All right, I never thought different meant letting guns go into Mexico. So, yeah, john Dodson was in that group and I don't know that I ever met John Dodson at that point. I mean I might have run into him at the range. I don't know that I ever had a conversation with him, but I had heard that he had contacted Senator Grassley's office and told them that guns were walking. And I heard this at a meeting that was being held by my special agent Charge, bill Newell, and in his discussion about that he said the US Attorney's office isn't happy about John Dodson. Don't be surprised if John Dodson died. And I'm sitting there for a minute.

Peter Forcelli: 33:04

My blood started to boil, steve, because I was thinking back about all of these firearms traffickers that we referred for prosecution, that they wouldn't take. I mean, some of them involved bodies, some involved multiple bodies on the guns that they were trafficking. And we were told no, no, no. And now you're going to have to the nerve to indict. And I thought at the time they were going to indict him for blowing the whistle.

Peter Forcelli: 33:24

I didn't know if they were looking at other things. So to me it's like, well, he's blowing the whistle, they're going to indict him. It was unconscionable. So, yeah, I went home, I told my wife what was going on and I said look, I'm going to make a phone call tomorrow and not going to lie and say I didn't have a couple of shots at the keel at night. Following morning I woke up and I called a guy named Brian Downey, who worked for Chuck Grassley's office in the Grassley, and I said look, I know you're being told that John Dodson's lying and that guns aren't walking, but he's not lying and if you give me a subpoena I'll tell you everything you want to know. And yeah, they've actually came with a subpoena and things changed.

Steve Morreale: 33:54

For sure you became a whistleblower, which is quite interesting. It is a major step that you would have to take, but I would dare say that one of the reasons was because you were resting on principle and on some internal drive to say right, it's right, and I can't allow this to happen, because people are not doing their job. And now they're trying to castigate someone who's trying to point the finger at a practice that is causing the nation difficulty and getting people killed because of guns that are being released.

Peter Forcelli: 34:24

Let's keep in mind a lot of people talk about heroes in the Fast and Furious and this one was here. Look, there was one hero in Operation Fast and Furious and that was a Border Patrol agent named Brian Terry who was patrolling the border area looking for drug robbers who were down here patrolling the deserts themselves robbing drug carriers. So Brian was killed with a gun. That was part of the Fast and Furious case and John came forward at that point. So I mean, you know, in addition to John possibly being indicted, it nodded me that in the I didn't know the relevance because I wasn't in that group and they were keeping all that stuff very walled off. But then now you got a dead Border Patrol agent, you got an ATF agent stepping forward and they are talking about rumblings, about possibly inditing that agent. And then, once that happened, people from that group started to talk water cooler talk where you're hearing. No, they did walk on because we didn't in a million years because that's not what ATF does that they weren't interdicting firearms. I heard one story from the agents in that group where this is how unconscionable it is, and I don't put everything into book because the book would have been too long there was a deal that they did at the Scottsdale Gun Club, which was one of those dealers that I spoke about earlier who was cooperative. Good people called us every time there was a transaction and the traffickers spotted the surveillance. So the traffickers not knowing the surveillance is ATF, because these people are dealing with cartel people. So you know, cartel people fear other cartel people. They call the Scottsdale police. Scottsdale police come and gave these guys an escort from the scene with the guns that they had purchased, believing Scottsdale police, believing it was a legitimate purchase, and ATF sitting there allowing it to happen. Because the US Attorney's Office said well, we can't prove that this particular transaction isn't them buying guns for their own personal use. These are the kind of things that were going on there that shocked the conscience.

Peter Forcelli: 36:01

But again, in all of these instances, to me it was also important because, knowing what was going on there, I also knew that the good agents in Phoenix, who had nothing to do with Fast and Furious, were, every time they were doing things the right way, being told no, no, no, and they were frustrated and they weren't reaching the potential that they would have had had they had that buy-in. And look, it wasn't the entire Phoenix US Attorney's Office. It was the gun unit of the US Attorney's Office and some of the managers above that. And the other thing that was frustrating and it weighed into my decision too was the Phoenix US Attorney's Office used to occasionally hire former county prosecutors and I would see those folks come in because we would do meet and greets and they were good people who would come in like exuberant, like wow, you know, I'm finally going to make it to the big time.

Peter Forcelli: 36:40

I'm a federal prosecutor now, excited. And then you would talk to them six months later and they were beaten down too. They wanted to do the right thing, but that office's policies just beat them into like being down, like they weren't who they were when they showed up, and that is also heartbreaking. They weren't my people, but they were good people.

Steve Morreale: 36:57

So, as you talk about what went on at the US Attorney's Office and above you in some cases, where, in essence, this was either allowed with knowledge or because of potential ineptness, you came forward and you. So here you are, you're a supervisor, you're watching what's going on, you're trying to help your group become productive, and part of productivity obviously would be that you get your cases prosecuted. And now you see that there is resistance from the US Attorney's Office. You see John Dodson almost being blacklisted because he is doing what he thinks is the right thing and you believe what he's been saying is accurate. So you become, in essence, whistleblower with Congress and what happened after all of those things?

Peter Forcelli: 37:43

Long before there was a televised hearing. You know there's depositions. So I went and I was deposed. It was like April of 2011. I laid everything on a table Firearms cases. There was a grenade case that we had that they wouldn't prosecute.

Peter Forcelli: 37:57

I just put it all out there, you know, because I just think transparency is an important thing and you can't fix what you won't talk about. So, literally, the deposition, rather, was staffed by people from Senator Grassley's office, chairman Leahy's office he was the chairman of Judiciary Committee then Darrell Issa, who was chairman of Oversight, and Elijah Cummings's office. So the staffers there's no politicians there, this is professional staff, their attorneys. So I put it all out there and I left and I had to walk about six blocks back to my office and on the way back I get a phone call from someone from the US Attorney's Office. I had some friends there. Many of them were those prosecutors that come there wanting to do good and they're like hey, pete, just watch your back. Buddy, everything you said was relayed to the United States Attorney, okay from the deposition.

Peter Forcelli: 38:36

Yeah, at the deposition, at a closed door deposition, I was told after the fact that it came from Leahy staffers, which makes sense. He was Judiciary Chair at the time, so anyway, no problem. Then a couple of days later I get a call said hey, can we meet for coffee, from another prosecutor from that office. And he hands me an email and it's from the United States Attorney, the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the State of Arizona, federal, saying any contact with Pete Fersely, who include seeing him having coffee with his family on weekends, is to be reported to me through your chain of command immediately. So I realize, okay, I'm going to have some problems here, which is tough because as a group supervisor you're not only supervising your people, you're also the advocate between your people and the US Attorney's Office when things go sideways. And I realize it's not going to be easy. So lo and behold.

Peter Forcelli: 39:18

Now I realize they keep an eye on me. And then one day I'm driving to work and I see that I'm being held and I don't still. To this day I don't know who was Cause. Oig was also doing some investigations at the time. But is it? Oig Is?

Steve Morreale: 39:30

it. Is it DOJ, Right? Yeah?

Peter Forcelli: 39:32

So there were a couple of days where I saw some surveillance. I'm like, okay, which was frightening, because now at this point I realize I need a lawyer and I know how federal law enforcement works. They can monitor phones, they can monitor emails. Any contact I have with my lawyer, I need to do it face to face, which became costly.

Peter Forcelli: 39:46

So I got to a point where, look, I was never wealthy, but we had a beautiful house in the desert in Gilbert, Arizona. We had a waterfall pool, like 3000 square feet. I had modest mortgage payment because I put a lot of money down on the house, we put a lot of money into the house and we got to the point where, between that and the lawyer stuff and my wife who had to have a total knee replacement, which was costly we were broke. We got to the point where we had like $20 something $26 I believe in our savings account and we had a mortgage payment coming. So I wound up having to take my price possessions with three watches I had. It was a watch guy had an Omega Seamaster, had a Breitling Chrono Cockpit and a Breitling Chrono Mat had to

Peter Forcelli: 40:22

pawn them to make the mortgage payment and then the following month there was another mortgage payment. So I had a bunch of tools. I had a whole yard sale to meet the mortgage and I had to sell my kids backpacks. I had to sell a rifle my grandfather left me which is incredibly humbling when you're there with people trying to negotiate your price down of the things that you are in most price possessions in your driveway no one. I got to feed my family and I got to pay the mortgage. So I wound up having to leave short-sell eventually . The house lost a ton of money that we put into the house. My daughter full-ride a scholarship to the Cronkite School of Journalism. She didn't feel safe staying in Arizona so we walked away from an $82,000 scholarship.

Peter Forcelli: 41:01

It was financially crippling and I didn't know at that point whether I would continue to be able to work for ATF cause it's funny like when I actually testified at the hearing that was televised it was on C-span. Nobody watches C-span, I understand. I remember my wife calling me because she was watching Fox News at the time and on the crawler on the bottom it said former ATF special agent Peter Forcelli about to testify. So my wife, as I'm standing there with my hand raised, thinks I'm about to get fired, or thought I was fired. So you know she's calling me, freaking out, and I'm just like hey, I can't talk right now about the testify. It was a rough ride that lasted about four years and there were a bunch of different investigations and different allegations that I had to disprove. But in the end I was able to keep my job because full disclosure I had some support from some folks in ATF who literally said to me their exact words.

Peter Forcelli: 41:47

This guy named Tom Brandon and eventually the director of ATF, first Senate confirmed director Bita Jones. They never fought for me but they gave me the space to fight for myself, which is a lot, but politically it wasn't the smart move for them to do. But, tom, when I told Tom I had gotten subpoenaed, he'd handed me a St Michael's Challenge coin and said as long as you're telling the truth, I have your back. At the time he was just a sack. He wasn't like a higher level person and he kept to his word, like when I was there slugging it out with DOJ, slugging it out with the US Attorney's Office. Tom never said, hey, stop. He said if you're gonna go fight and do something publicly, do it on your time, take the time off. Don't give DOJ any ammo. He gave me good counsel and let me fight my battles, and that's what I did. I stuck to the truth and I fought my battles.

Steve Morreale: 42:27

Well, I think there's the story that focused on the truth. It was an ethical dilemma Should I or should I hide like everybody else? Should I not? But once you raise your hand and say I wanna tell a story, you became almost a lone wolf. You were all by yourself. That's not an easy thing to do and certainly you survived. It was terrific. I'm glad to hear it. You were able to retire. They gave. Ultimately you were promoted. You became Deputy Assistant Director.

Peter Forcelli: 42:50

I ended my career as the head of training, which was nice because by the time I got to the end I was kind of tired of the politics and the bureaucracy and so the nice thing was I would get to see the fresh new faces coming in who weren't ground down yet. They were coming in enthusiastic. So it helped me to see that, but it also kept me on focus because I couldn't be that beaten down curmudgeon. It made me look at things from a more optimistic perspective, to be that leader that they needed to hear from, instead of some curmudgeonous old grouch who was gonna complain about the job, just negative. I wanted to focus on the great parts of the job, the things that I loved, the things that can't be, that I still miss now in retirement having the impact.

Steve Morreale: 43:29

So at one point in time we're running a long episode so I have to cut it short a little bit and I apologize for that. You wrote a book. What moved you in that direct? Tell your story more broad. There were a couple of things.

Peter Forcelli: 43:39

One is look, I'm not gonna lie, I never made that money back that I paid lawyers. There was a settlement with the DOJ Behind closed doors. I can't disclose it, but I'll say that I never left that room with a penny richer. So I mean financially, I took a beating in retirement. So I'd like to see if I can make some of that money back, put that on the table.

Peter Forcelli: 43:56

But the other reasons were look, when you followed that scandal back in a day, you either heard the Democrat version of events that happened or the Republican version of events. The Democrat version was that it started under Bush. The Republican version it was started from the White House. Neither of those are true. Look, it happened during the Obama administration. They never fully owned it, but it didn't start in the White House. So there's that.

Peter Forcelli: 44:15

I wanted to tell the real, not political, story about what happened. But the other thing is, as the head of the academy, as the head of training, every now and then I'd meet a young agent. You know how it is, some people, they just happy to get a job, so some people just show up. But every now and then I would meet an agent who was coming in, who did his homework and Googled ATF and looked at the history and said, hey, what you wanted to whistleblowers? I mean, yeah, did we really do that? And we had proposed putting together some training, not just for the new agents but for agents in other parts of the country that really don't know the true story. It's funny. I had an agent recently when he came out that I wrote the book, said hey, thanks for doing this Cause.

Peter Forcelli: 44:44

Anytime we mentioned Fast and Furious, it was like talking about Voldemort. I didn't know who Voldemort was. I had to look it up. But I guess you, it's kind of like Fight Club, right. But we had proposed putting together a training so that something like this could never happen again. And what I was told is we don't talk about that. And that was from ATF upper management and from main justice. So how do you prevent it from happening again if you don't explain what happened? Because what look? You read it. What happened there was they abandoned some very basic policing principles, so it wasn't like some kind of creative thing where they came out of left field. People walked away from the basic. So I want to highlight that so that folks won't make that same mistake in the future and we were told no. So now that I'm retired, I can tell that story for the new agents, for the general public that wants to really find out what happened, or for the agents in other parts of the country who wanted to know but were never given the straight answer.

Steve Morreale: 45:32

Well, I think it has a much wider potential audience in my mind, because law enforcement, overall, state, local, federal, county these kinds of things can happen at times, and to me you raised your right hand, like I did, swearing to uphold the constitution, and when that isn't done, you can stand on the sideline and just complain about it at the water cooler or you can bring it forward so something can be done to avoid it from continuing to happen, and I think that's what you tried to do. What was the experience of writing? Was it cathartic?

Peter Forcelli: 46:01

It was both cathartic and humbling because full disclosure when I wrote the book, the manuscript was 174,000 words, which is really long, and I was a cop for a long time, Steve, so you can imagine that it read like a 174,000 word police report. That's where Keelyne McGregor, my co-author, came in. She specializes in editing and she took it and really just turned it into something. I've been told that it reads somewhat like a novel and I've even been told it's somewhat entertaining to read. That credit goes to Kate for working her magic. So I mean, I wrote a lot about what happened. She paired it down to a much more readable, roughly 80,000 words and put in the right adjectives and the flavors and how the sunlight reflected off, whatever, and made it something that I think most people will enjoy reading, a lot more than Pete for Selly's very lengthy report of investigation.

Steve Morreale: 46:49

So it's out in the next few weeks and I know that chances are you'll be doing a lot of interviews on it and I'm glad to grab you, fellow colleague, both as a police officer, previously federal agent, now retired In terms of leadership. What are the lessons?

Peter Forcelli: 47:04

Do the right thing and fight for your reputation, because it's the only thing that you take with you when you leave. I've seen leaders lead by power, by bullying, thinking it's all about them. And look, we've seen this in the world, too, where leaders do things that are stupid because they think that they're smarter than everybody, or that no one's gonna notice, or that because they're in a position of power, they can get away with it. I've always strived, because I've worked for some great guys John Cutter, al Mataraso.

Peter Forcelli: 47:25

I worked for some chiefs who I if I failed and not just chiefs, supervisors at lower levels if I failed, I would have been heartbroken that I let them down. So I wanted to be like them. I wanted my people to do right, because they didn't wanna let me down, not because they were afraid of me, and I just always wanted to lead by example, and I thought by not stepping up and doing the right thing, what example would I be setting? But it wasn't because I wanted any kind of notoriety, it wasn't because I wanted to go through what I went through or put my family through what I went through. It was because I realized that everything that matters when I leave is my reputation.

Steve Morreale: 47:56

So you paid a price for stepping up. Tough question was it worth?

Peter Forcelli: 47:59

I think so. The hard part was look, I raised my hand to defend the Constitution, take the job, and I loved 99% of what I did. My family didn't sign up for it, so I feel bad for them. But listen, in hindsight, my kids are both ATF agents.

Steve Morreale: 48:12

No, I didn't know that wow.

Peter Forcelli: 48:15

So, despite seeing what I went through, they knew how much I loved the job and the mission of actually taking bad guys off the streets that they decided to go down that path. So I guess maybe in some ways it was worth it, but I wouldn't wanna go through that again for them or for me.

Steve Morreale: 48:29

Frankly, I understand that, but for me, as someone who spent 35, 40 years in law enforcement, I have to say you are a testament to great and noble agents or police officers for having done what you did, for standing up, being willing to write, putting your name out there and, by the same token, coming out the other side still standing straight and with pride. Thank you, I mean that. So we're talking to Pete Forcelli and he has a book out that is just released. It's called The Deadly Path: How Operation Fast and Furious Armed Mexican Cartels. And by the way, we didn't talk a whole bunch about the cartels, but certainly I know you were bouncing back and forth to Mexico. What was your take on what was going on there from the cartels and how they seemed to have a hold? Everybody had a fear over government and government entities.

Peter Forcelli: 49:18

I met some Mexican officials that were very desperate to see solution to the problem and I think their prosecution could stem the flow of firearms. To look, you can't stop a bathtub from overflowing if you're not going to turn off the water, and I know it would never fix it all, but I mean it would perhaps have some sort of the turn effect. But the Phoenix US Attorney's Office isn't the only US Attorney's Office that's turning a blind eye to straw purchasing, because they believe it's a paper crime or it's not very glamorous or the person might not go to jail. But if they're not convicted or punished, then they're going to continue to buy guns and supply the cartels.

Peter Forcelli: 49:49

It was also an eye-opener because I met some folks down there that I have deep, deep respect for, because they were honest and they didn't know if they were going to get shot by the bad guy who they were going after or the dirty cop behind them.

Peter Forcelli: 50:02

Because, I mean, I was told by someone who I grew to know pretty well, who was in CISEN, which is their internal intelligence agency down in Mexico. They get polygraphed, they're vetted, so those folks are pretty straight shooters and he was saying Pete, don't trust local law enforcement or even state law enforcement down here, because basically, whatever area you're in, you can rest assured that they are the uniformed enforcement arm of the respective cartel that controls that area. So I mean it was really difficult to fathom what's going on down there. And look, it's worse. I mean I remember seeing National Drug Intelligence center bulletins of bodies hung from bridges. I remember seeing one the photographs were grisly of bodies skinned alive well, presumably alive Bodies skinned hung in a public shower. I believe it was in Sinaloa. You know, I'm assuming they were alive when they were skinned. I mean, so the stuff is barbaric that I was seeing, Perhaps more barbaric than the stuff that you were seeing coming out of the Middle East back then.

Steve Morreale: 50:48

No, you're absolutely right, and of course, as a DEA agent, it was very difficult for me to go down there or for our people to go down there, even most recently, where, in essence, they were trying to cut off their diplomatic status for DEA, because DEA like ATF, I presume is actually going after people and the politicians and they don't like that, they don't want us down there. So it is a very difficult and a tenuous situation on there.

Peter Forcelli: 51:09

I would say it's worse now, Steve, because I follow the border. It's something I was passionate about being down there because I know those people in Mexico and I love. Mexico is a beautiful country, a lot of beautiful people down there, very warm people. They're in a bad place right now, but I would argue that the cartels are stronger and more violent now than they were when I worked the border from 2007 to 2012.

Steve Morreale: 51:28

And it's interesting because it seems like the cartels certainly moved up from Colombia, where they started, into Mexico, getting closer, and now they're controlling the border in any number of ways, including trafficking people, getting them across the border. So it's a very difficult situation. Well, Pete Forcelli, thank you, thank you. Thank you for everything. I look forward to success with your book and I would like to reserve the right to chat with you again, because there's so much I'd be honored, I'd be honored to come back. That's great. So that's another episode in the books. This is Steve Morreale. You're listening to The CopDoc Podcast and we've had the pleasure, the honor, to talk to Pete Forcelli, who has written The Deadly Path. So look for it, and I'm sure you can find it on Amazon and in many other bookstores. Thanks so much.

Intro - Outro : 52:11

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.