The CopDoc Podcast Ep010 - Interview with Patrick Fitzgibbons, Host CJ Evolution

Steve chats with Patrick Fitzgibbons, retired law enforcement leader and host of the CJ Evolution Podcast.  

We talk about leadership, the state of policing today, the podcasting experience, mental health in policing 

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:00.083] - Steve Morreale
Well, hello, everybody. This is Steve Morreale on The CopDoc Podcast, and I am talking to a fellow podcast, or even though I'm a newbie, we're talking to Patrick. Patrick Fitzgibbons is talking to us from Colorado and he has the podcast. I strongly recommend the S.J evolution. He's been at it for a long time and we get the chance to talk to him. Patrick, hello. Hello.

[00:00:20.243] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
Hello, Steve, my friend. An honor to be on your show, brother. Love what you're doing and thank you for your service and with you.

[00:00:28.673] - Steve Morreale
You're a military guy yourself. Yeah.

 [00:00:30.923] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
Well, I appreciate being on your show, brother. I'm happy to have you. So I want to want to get started to tell the audience a little bit about yourself. You're a veteran. You are a police officer. But tell us about your path, your trajectory. And then most importantly, how the hell did you get involved in podcasting?

[00:00:47.603] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
Well, thanks again, brother, for allowing me to be here. And it's an honor. You know, my you know, I was in the military like we talked about or you mentioned it was down at Fort Bragg in North Carolina and did some time with the 82nd Airborne Division. After that, as you know, Steve, is probably it's kind of a natural progression with a lot of people that are in the military. Law enforcement is a natural fit.

[00:01:08.093] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
And it was for me, I got law enforcement, my blood had some uncles and a grandfather that were Chicago cops. So I knew before I even went in the military that I wanted to head into the law enforcement field. And I did get out of the military, came back Colorado with my wife and new baby in tow and started on my journey, my law enforcement journey and, you know, went to the academy and got hired and spent my career with 2 agencies here in Colorado and retired as an operations commander in 2019.And you know my path now about it, as you know. And the listeners, I'll tell you, is really, really continuing to get back to the profession that was so good to me for over two decades. And the law enforcement is it's up and down like, you know, some of the listeners or most of listeners now. And, you know, Steve, but I had a great career, but I wanted to continue to to serve and give back to the brave men and women who put it all on the line every day.

[00:01:55.163] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
And that's why I started the show about five years ago, a little over five years ago. And I'm just having a ball with it.

[00:01:59.693] - Steve Morreale
But you get to know and you get to meet so many people, and so for the audience, I think it's important to know that as I began to consider the podcast, I started listening and podcast. Podcast about podcasting. And then you start to look at what's podcasts are out there about policing. And I found you and I reached out and you've been very helpful to me. But what do you find is important to focus? What draws you to potential guests?

[00:02:25.403] - Patrick Fitzgibbons
Well, I look at what the guests can. It's not so much about me. Yeah, I want a great show, but I want to give back again great content and information to the listener. Most of them criminal justice. And I even have listeners that have nothing to do with criminal justice. But when I look at a guest such as yourself, Steve, I want you on my show.

[00:02:42.803] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I told you that I look at, OK, what does Steve have to offer the listener? And that's how I really look at guests. And I've been blessed over the years that have so many to have, so many amazing, all of them are amazing guests, but all of them in a unique way, give back to the profession, you know, whether it's military, whether it's active LEOs, retired law enforcement. I really look at, OK, what are they going to resonate with the list?

[00:03:04.613] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Are they going to get back to the listener? And I've been blessed all of or a majority of them. 99 percent of them have.

[00:03:10.253] - Steve Morreale

So one of the things you seem to focus on, and I think it's so interesting, is basically the well-being, the health, the mental health, the whole health of an officer, the things that you or I or called on to do are is so unusual. You're called to people for help at the worst time in their lives. And it takes a toll, does take a toll on us. And so I know you talk about that a lot, discussed that a little bit.

[00:03:33.473] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Why do you focus on working to help that officer?

[00:03:37.043] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Well, because it's a great question, Steve, because a lot of officers suffer and a lot of them suffer silently.

[00:03:42.803] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And, I did for a number of years. I know a lot of them do. And I think officer wellness and safety and mental health  is a topic that I don't believe we can ever talk too much about. Look, I mean, 2019 was a horrible year with officer suicides. 2020 was another horrible year. And we're starting off this year. 2021, and I hope the trajectory changes, but it's a very, very tough job.

[00:04:04.943] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

So my goal, my the premise behind my show is, yeah, I talk about topics, hot topics and law enforcement. The overall message is the health and well-being of our brave men and women. And I love talking about mindset. I love talking about taking care of yourself, because that's what really it's about. Brother, you know that if you're not taking care of yourself as a first responder and first responder, no matter if it's a dispatching job, LE, out on the road, deputy or whatever, how are you going to be able to take care of anybody else if you're not taking care of yourself personally and professionally?

[00:04:32.183] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

So I focus a lot of my content, a lot of my message around this.

[00:04:36.323] - Steve Morreale

So you do some Microcasts, which are neat. They're quick, there to the point, and they bring your mindset to something that you should be thinking of. I think it causes the listener to reflect how does that impact me? And so I appreciate that. Talk about some of those Microcast and what drives you where the sources of those microcaps come from. You know a lot of it.

[00:04:54.803] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I appreciate it, brother. Yeah. the Microcasts are fairly new to the podcast I only really started them about a year and a half ago, and I wanted to give conjunction with my regular shows, I wanted to give the first responders out there, criminal justice professionals, kind of a start to their week. Hence the name microcaps Monday. But I didn't want it to be a full segment. I just wanted it to be short bursts of motivation and inspiration to get them started on their week.

[00:05:17.353] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And to answer a question, where do I get that from? A lot of it's just for me, it's just shooting from the hip. And I get a lot of my inspiration from some of the stuff that I went through that I think it's important to share with the audience. And it's been a hit. I get a lot of good feedback from the Microcaps Monday's and there generally about five, six minutes long, but just designed to get the person off to a good start for the week.

[00:05:37.453] - Steve Morreale

I probably will adapt and copy what you're doing. I'm going to be focused. I'm going to be focused on leadership and just thoughts about leadership. What does that mean and how does it impact you?

[00:05:47.333] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Great topic!

[00:05:47.853] - Steve Morreale

What can you do better? And so I want to get into leadership because you had leadership roles and being in the military. And one of the things that I always try to struggle with is to try to understand how do people learn to be leaders?

[00:05:58.993] - Steve Morreale

How do people learn to make decisions, organizational decisions? Where did that come from? And here's what strikes me. And I'd like your point of view. The military has changed, as you know, from even when we were in where the troops are engaged in some of the process before somebody makes a decision. Very often it's not always top-down. It's here's what we've got, guys. What do we do? And then certainly the commander has to make that decision.

[00:06:21.523] - Steve Morreale

They're on the hook for the decision. But it seems to me that that the training that goes on in the military, the leadership development that goes on, the training that goes on in the military and the leadership development that goes on in the military. We pretend in law enforcement that we are paramilitary and built on the premise of the military. And yet, we don't seem to do what the military does. We don't really train leaders before you know how it is.

[00:06:46.633] - Steve Morreale

Hey, kid, you got the job. You starting tomorrow. No training whatsoever. So what's your take on that from your experience in terms of leadership, leadership development?

[00:06:54.163] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Well, I was blessed, you know, from a very young age to be surrounded by great leaders, some of them not so good leaders, but majority of them really good leaders that mentored and coached me, took me under their wing. That started with my father, who was a military man who passed away a couple of years ago. But he was he was an officer in the Army and then later transitioned to the Air Force. So I got the foundation from him, obviously.

[00:07:14.413] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And then, that led to my leadership development in the military. And, of course, it transferred over to law enforcement. But I really do think, brother, it's again, who you surround yourself with and you kind of gravitating towards those good leaders and staying away from the people that have rank. They call themselves leaders. And I so important in law enforcement. And here's the one thing, and that's a great question to you, Steve. There's so much information out there now.

[00:07:35.503] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Don't just rely on your organization. Don't rely on that department to make you into a leader, quote, take upon yourself some of the greatest lessons on leadership I learned outside of the classroom. I mean, meaning your education should still keep going. So many officers I've seen or coached and mentored over the years, you know, I want to be a good leader. I want to be a good leader. Can you send me to this training? Well, you know, we'll try to send it to you, but take it upon yourself.

[00:07:56.983] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Read read books that aren't related to law enforcement. And some of the best leadership lessons don't even have to do with military or law enforcement. So, again, just remember that your education is in your hands. Don't rely on an organization to develop you into a leader. It's on you. Yes, the organization has a responsibility to get you some training and stuff like that, but you've got to take it upon yourself to to become that leader that you want to become.

[00:08:18.673] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And I would encourage listeners out there to read leadership books. There's so many good authors out there that you can gleam information from. But yeah, I think in some cases, in some organizations, there's there's a leadership void. There's leadership problems, like you indicated, start from the top. Do you think I like what you said, Steve, about the kind of leadership style I was always partial to to a Democratic kind of leadership style meeting? The more people that attack a problem, I think the better off you are.

[00:08:45.433] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Now, I can switch. I've always been able to switch into that autonomous role and make a decision when I have to. I mean, I can do that. But I love the collaboration because I think the more collaboration you have, if you have the time, obviously most of the time in law enforcement, you have the time to bounce ideas off of people. I think you're going to make better decisions. And that's all that all goes into that leadership development that we're talking about.

[00:09:06.943] - Steve Morreale

That's interesting because and what you just said makes perfect sense. And that is it's almost we've become incestuous. I know that when I was in school, I was reading Iannone supervision of police. Iannone is on a sixty-fifth version. I don't and I and only died twenty years ago. I was reading him in mid-seventy. And so there were so many good lessons out there that come from outside of policing because leading is about people. You know, it's it's unique when you we've got the added responsibility of police officers who work for you because their lives are in jeopardy.

[00:09:37.363] - Steve Morreale

They're being asked to do some very, very serious and meaningful thing. And so it draws an awful lot of Type A personalities. And sometimes you have to tame the beast a little bit. But having said that, I think you just said asking people, but you had to have work for people who were more autocratic. And at some point in time, I guess you learn from the good boss and the bad boss. Don't you want to not?

[00:10:00.103] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Yeah, of course. I mean, I never wanted to be I know it's going to sound weird to some, but I never wanted to be the smartest person in the room. I always wanted to surround myself with people who were smarter than me, which is not very hard because I'm not that smart.

[00:10:12.023] - Steve Morreale

But I always wanted to know, even when I was in charge, even when I was a commander, Steve, when I was in charge of patrol and I was in there talking to the troops, I knew I was the highest-ranking individual in that room. If I was if I was. But I wanted to hear from them. I wanted to hear their solutions. I want even from the young cops. I wanted to hear what they would do in a situation.

[00:10:32.533] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And I think that, again, that's how you learn. And again, like I said, I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. I want to surround myself with people who are smarter than me because that's how I learn. You mentioned having the supervisors or the leaders or the managers or whatever you want to call them that have to be the smartest in the room. There are very autonomist, so it's my way or the highway.

[00:10:49.933] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And first of all, I don't think that there's a time and a place for that, but not all the time. I think most of the time people look at that with some disdain.

[00:10:56.383] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I've worked for a couple supervisors that were like that and they might sit there and shake their heads and they're listening to you, but they're really not you know, they know what they're going to do and they just kind of, if you know what I mean. It's just not a good feeling when you're around leadership like that. And unfortunately, that's pervasive in a lot of organizations. You have leaders like that.

[00:11:13.273] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But again, getting back to what I was talking about before, I was fortunate in my career to be mentored and coached by some of the best people I've ever known in my life. A lot of those leaders, believe it or not, didn't even have rank. They were just had these leadership philosophies. And I just learned from them. And I'm not without making mistakes and I've made mistakes throughout my career, but I really had a good foundation going in.

[00:11:32.653] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And again, I'm a voracious reader, like you said, reading information from other other people out there outside of law enforcement. And I think that just builds and builds and builds, you know, leadership, potential and leadership traits that going to make you a good leader.

[00:11:46.183] - Steve Morreale

Well, one of the things that I've experienced and I think works and that is when you're talking with other people, you're engaging them. You're letting them know what the particular mission is, what the issue is, rather than dictating what they're going to do. But here's the problem, what do you got for an idea? And sometimes you just let that linger. Sometimes you say, let's  get back and talk. I want you to think about it. Mull it over, I'm not looking for an instant answer talk.

[00:12:07.753] - Steve Morreale

We'll talk about it tomorrow. And it's almost like you're planting a seed and you never know how that will germinate with so many ideas. And it makes you a stronger leader and it helps you accomplish the mission and you're engaging others. So you're making them feel well and involved.

[00:12:21.523] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Yeah, and the thing I learned, one of the things I learned a long time ago, Steve, and you probably know this is admitting fault know when you're a leader and admitting that you're wrong. So many leaders I've seen throughout or people leadership roles have this problem sometimes of just admitting fault or they don't know an answer. And sometimes that's a sign of strength.

[00:12:39.223] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

You know, you don't want to be the leader, the chief that never has an answer for anything. I'm not saying that. But you have to have a balance there. If you don't know something, just admit it. And I hate you.

[00:12:47.383] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That was a great question officer. I'm sure I'm gonna get back to you. I'm in a fight or whatever. I'm going to find the information. I won't get back to you. It's perfectly OK to say, look, I don't know or can you enlighten me? But so many quote leaders, they get well, I have to know. And then they view it as a sign of weakness. I view it as a sign of strength, as a sign of you being human, that you don't know everything.

[00:13:03.223] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But so many leaders out there. Well, I can't I can't tell them I don't know this. They're going to think I'm not a good leader. Now, I think that makes you a strong leader because cops, you can't beat them. Most of you, they can smell it.

[00:13:13.723] - Steve Morreale

They can. They can. Yes, they can. So the state of policing today, it's certainly not pretty. It's not pretty on television. We've certainly watched some people who have tainted the badge, but it represents, in my mind, a very, very small number. So many people put their lives on the line and do heroic things every day, defunding the issue of hiring the media coverage, all of those things. And what we watched on January 6th as they came at the capital in those poor officers that were left without enough support.

[00:13:44.033] - Steve Morreale

What's your take on all of this? How do we get out of this? What are the things that your colleagues are saying? Because I think a lot of police officers here's the thing with police. It doesn't matter what happens, they have to go on the next call. It's not like, oh, we've got a bad car. We've got to shut down the manufacturing line to retool. Policing can't retool. You have to go to the next call no matter what the last call, what or how much people disdain your show, disdain.

[00:14:10.573] - Steve Morreale

What's your thought on what's going on?

[00:14:12.233] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Well, I think it's a disgrace. I mean, are there some problems that we have in law enforcement? Absolutely. I'll be the first to tell you the other bad apples. Absolutely. But everybody shouldn't be painted with the same brush. I think the media is complicit and guilty and painting a picture a lot. Not all media, but a lot of it. My opinion of painting this bleak picture about law enforcement, that everybody is going out there to shoot somebody on a daily basis and use somebody's rights.

[00:14:36.613] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And the reality is the numbers don't add up to it's a bunch of B.S. I think the majority. Ninety nine percent of the cops out there, good people, men and women, are doing a very good job in a very difficult environment. And I remember not so long ago, it seems, Steve, where politicians really didn't attack law enforcement like they're doing today. It was kind of it was a bipartisan thing. I mean, yeah, there was some attacks here and there, but now you have politicians.

[00:14:59.413] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Is that openly attack and wanted to fund the police, which is problematic because a lot of people look at that and say, well, if the politician wants that, well, I guess I better follow along. The reality is law enforcement is a resilient profession. You know that we're going to bounce back. We always do. This is reminiscent, in my opinion, of the aftermath of Rodney King, were still reverberates in the law enforcement community to some degree, and it took a long time to recover.

[00:15:23.023] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But we will we're a resilient profession. You know, it's peaks and valleys. We're in that valley right now. But we'll, you know, we'll be on top again. And I really do think, brother, the majority of men and women out there, citizens support law enforcement. And I always say on my show, I wish they were more vocal about it, but the majority of people out there support law enforcement. That's one of my messages, too, on my show is, look, we love you.

[00:15:47.023] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

We care about you. Keep going out there doing the job you're doing. Don't listen to a lot of the noise out there. Know, I stop watching a lot of this news, Steve. It's just not healthy. And again, that's one of the missions of my show, is to tell our brave men and women that you are loved and people do care about you and you you do matter and go out there and do a good job and we're going to get through this.

[00:16:07.933] - Steve Morreale

So with everything that's gone on, there's so many opportunities for training, for teaching opportunities. We see something happen as we did in Minneapolis. You come back, let's go back to your commander days. You're in charge of patrol. What do you do? How do you talk with the troops? How do you bring that forward to dissect that and to have your officers think about what happened and how to avoid that from happening on your shift in your police department?

[00:16:34.543] - Steve Morreale

How do you bring those teachable moments forward?

[00:16:37.153] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Well, I think you get everybody together and you dissect that call, that particular call. You're talking about George Floyd. And again, we don't know all the intricacies of that case, but for what we've seen on the footage, it was it was horrible. So I would bring everybody together mandatory and say, look, we're going to dissect this case. What would you do differently? What are some ideas? What can we be doing differently as a police department?

[00:16:57.023] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And it's easier to do that in a smaller agency is, you know, it's a little bit more difficult in a larger agency. But that's what I would do. I would first get with my sergeants, my street supervisors and bang ideas off their head. OK, what would you do differently? Again, it goes back to me just being open. I want to hear your your views, your you know, your responses to this.

[00:17:14.653] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

You guys are on the front line. I'm sitting behind a desk. You guys are out on the street doing it. So I want to hear your ideas, your thoughts on this. And it's important to remember that it's an open and honest discussion. I think so many times officers feel like, oh, my God, if I say something, I'm going to be attacked or if I say how I really feel. No, I think you have to get that culture and that environment of open and honest discussion.

[00:17:34.813] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's part of the problem. Know, we're so afraid of what to say to somebody or say our feelings out in the open for fear of being chastised. Part of leadership is being courageous and having those difficult conversations. So I hope I didn't ramble on too much, but I would have an open and honest discussion dissect that case after briefing or an after incident review or whatever you want to call it, really, really dissect that case. What do we need to be doing differently as an organization?

[00:17:58.483] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Do we need to revisit our policy and procedure, our use of force policy? Do we need to revisit that? Are there holes? So there are gaps there, training issues that we could take advantage of, anti bias policing, implicit bias training, things like that that we can take advantage of. There's always a solution to to every issue out there. And as we saw with some of these incidents over the last year or two, police departments everywhere, I think you have to engage in more training and transparency, accountability.

[00:18:23.443] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But, yeah, it's a great question. And sure, the law enforcement agencies everywhere are discussing this or they have discussed it or they're going to discuss at least I hope I hope so, too.

[00:18:32.263] - Steve Morreale

I think agencies and we certainly have gotten better and better, but most agencies are very good at being reactive. Being proactive is a different thing. And so what we're talking about is having the leader has to be forward thinking. The leader has to be proactive. The leader has to reach out to find out what are the issues and know I've said this before that I remember walking into new organizations and sitting with people that I had never supervised in the past and say, listen, what do you got going?

[00:18:56.743] - Steve Morreale

What are you proud of? What are the impediments? What can I do to help you be productive and to have those conversations? And what I found was so many people said to me, no one's ever asked me that question. No one's ever asked me what I need. So I think that's part of what leaders should do. My concern from from an inside outsider is that I'm not hearing much from police leadership at the highest level to communicate with citizens to stand up for the police officers that are working in their jurisdiction to say, listen, we saw it, we don't like it.

[00:19:27.883] - Steve Morreale

I've heard it a little bit. Not enough in my mind. But what could police leaders do to reinforce? The value of police in the locality, what should they be saying, citizens? Well, I think we need to be connecting more with the citizens.

[00:19:46.113] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's all part of the community policing, you know, aspect of policing, which is central to modern policing. I think we do do a better job at getting the word out and communicating and make those connections with our community. You know, I was fortunate in my agency, my former agency, Steve, with having those strong relationships with the community and every community is different. It's different. It comes with its complexities, different demographics and things like that.

[00:20:12.123] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But I really do believe that, you know, in some agencies, they need to do a better job at connecting with the community. Well, what do you mean by connecting with communities or getting out in front of the community, hosting town halls?

[00:20:21.903] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I mean, it might be a little bit difficult now in the era of covered, but you can do virtual stuff. You can send out newsletters, you can do stuff on social media. You can get creative with the stuff. That's how it takes everybody at that table. It's not just law enforcement. It's community members, too. And I and I understand that, you know, some agencies are facing more struggles and obstacles than others.

[00:20:43.603] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I mean, imagine the police chief in Minneapolis or St. Louis, you know, where some of these incidents have happened over the years, trying to reconnect or trying to gain that trust, because really that's what it boils down to, trust between the organization in the community and I understand them that don't live in a bubble.

[00:21:01.533] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I realize no matter what law enforcement does, people are some people are just going to hate the cops regardless. But you have to we have to do a better job with connecting with the community. What happens in my experience, brother, is, you know, something happens, a critical incident officer or whatever, and the police department tends to go into its shell and to to to kind of retreat and say, oh, you know, we're under the microscope, you know, and we need to we need to kind of retreat.

[00:21:28.533] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I take the opposite approach, and I think that's the time to even more engage with with the the community.

[00:21:35.073] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Are you going to solve all the problems? No, but we need to do a better job at engaging with the community. You know, President Obama came up with the six pillars of twenty first century policing a couple of years ago, and I thought it was great. And a lot of what we're talking about was in his recommendations with the commission, he started. And a lot of that is being transparent and working and, you know, in building on that foundation of community policing.

[00:21:59.313] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But it starts with open and communication and just building and keep it's a never ending process. It's it's never there's not a completion date.

[00:22:08.763] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I mean, it's constantly, constantly building those relationships.

[00:22:12.333] - Steve Morreale

So we're lucky to be talking to Patrick Fitzgibbons and he is the host of The CJ Evolution.

[00:22:17.853] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And a couple of things that  I want to know is how you feel about training standards. And what I mean about that is you go from state to state and training standards can be completely different from twelve hours excuse me, twelve weeks for a police academy to others that have thirty weeks. And you can't tell me that 12-week academy is covering as much as a thirty-week academy. Is it time for a national standard?

[00:22:44.673] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's a great question. I was actually having this discussion with a buddy of mine who was in law enforcement as actually a senior. He's a lieutenant in an organization and he's in charge of training.

[00:22:53.163] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And I do, kind of leaning to what you just said, Steve, about having some sort of national standardization across the board, because you're right. Exactly right. Where in Colorado. The training hours might be different from California and Arizona and vice versa. So maybe it's time to start having those discussions again about having a standard for all 50 states. Where, OK, these are the alloted you know, these are the minimum, minimum training hours because in a lot of states, as you know,  like in Colorado, you have to hit a minimum amount of training for every law enforcement officer through POST, which is the state Colorado Police Officer Standards and Training.

[00:23:27.543] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

You have to hit a certain amount of hours, which I don't think I've never thought that was enough hours. I think we need to have more. I think it's twenty-four, twelve, twelve and twelve. No, I think it's. See, what does that. Yeah it's not a lot ours. So I always thought that we need to raise those hours and I think we do, contrary to what some people think.  I think we do a lot of training, but I think the amount of minimal hours as far as training, use of force, escalation, all that stuff should be a lot more than what we're doing.

[00:23:53.583] - Steve Morreale

You can imagine and people have said it takes more hours to become a hairdresser than it does for a police officer. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But it's if that's the case, that's a problem. But I also think that in order to get a degree, somebody many years ago said one hundred and twenty credit hours is what is required for a bachelor's degree. I don't care where you are in the United States. And yet there is no such standard.

[00:24:18.993] - Steve Morreale

I'm not looking for national interference, but it seems to me that that has to be some common theme or common thread across the country. Just things to think about. Patrick, three things you've learned since you took on the podcast. The common threads, the common themes that come through your guests?

[00:24:36.813] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

You know, I look for we were talking about this before we started, Steve, and, you know, the common themes that I look for with a guest is, you know, the guest is engaging.

[00:24:44.853] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

They're going to bring some spunk. They're going to bring some, you know, liveliness to the show. I love that. And that's where you have a discussion usually with guests before they come on. But I want them to provide great content and information to the listener. And, of course, I want them to talk about what they're doing in their world, because I think it's very important, whether it's a book, lecturing, coaching, teaching, whatever it is.

[00:25:05.733] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

But the common themes is,  I want them to provide great content and information for for the listener. And again, I want them. That's my that's my biggest probably requirement because I think I'm in the business of providing great content and information to the criminal justice community. And that's what I look for. And. And like I said, engaging, lively. But most important, they're going to provide great content and information for them.

[00:25:29.193] - Steve Morreale

I wish I wish you had been a little more lively. That's, as I'm listening. So, I think that's important.

[00:25:37.653] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I mean, everybody I mean, we've all had those shows. I mean, I know you you talk to a lot of people. I know I do. And I know I've always kind of cringe when I have that show or somebody I just got to pull them along  to the finish line. And I love the banter we're having right now in the back and forth. That's what the listeners want to hear. They want to hear that lively discussion.

[00:25:55.503] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And yeah, that's what I want. Yeah.

[00:25:57.273] - Steve Morreale

They want to make sure that people on the podcast are awake and and. Well, what's on your to do list? What do you have to do?. What do you what's on the to do list that gets keeps getting pushed off? Like I got to get to that but I can't.

[00:26:10.053] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

For me personally, yes of course I'd keep pushing off a new book. So I did a book last year or twenty nineteen and I've been wanting to put pen and paper and start working on it.

[00:26:21.843] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Yeah I did Evolve which is a micro book about that micro book.

[00:26:25.443] - Steve Morreale

Talk about that. You like Micro's, huh?

[00:26:27.783] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Well it's a micro book. It's about 60 something pages. 67 pages long and you can find it on my website, cj evolution.com as an ebook. But, you know, I just wanted that was part of the reason I wanted to retire. I wanted to teach more and write a book and, you know, work on the show. But yeah, I wanted to write a book for our brave men and women out there. And even if you're not in criminal justice, you can read the book.

[00:26:48.273] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

It really is applicable to anything you're doing, but Evolve as an acronym.

[00:26:51.603] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And the E stands for Elevate. I talk a lot about mindset. So I think in order to get to that next stage and that better you, you have to elevate your mindset. V is for visualization. I'm a big visualizer. I mean, I like to visualize things I want to do back it up with action. So I really do think and science proves that the more you visualize and the more you back it up with action, the more things in your world are going to come to fruition.

[00:27:14.163] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Oh, I'm a big believer in who you surround yourself with. You're going to become so always others, you know, who are you're surrounding yourself with, are with. So Jim Roanne, very famous, said,  the average of the five people you associate with. So that's where the outcomes in others, you know, who's your tribe, who are you surround yourself with because you are going to become who you associate with.

[00:27:33.363] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

L is love, love your life, man.

[00:27:35.853] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

If you don't love your life, if you're not passionate about you, not in a narcissistic way, but if you don't love yourself, how are you going to love and take care of other people? And for all you first responders out there, if you don't like yourself or love yourself, how are you going to go out there and give 100 percent to your community? And again, this is not narcissism, but you have to love yourself. And love means taking care of yourself mentally, physically.

[00:27:56.943] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's what I mean by love.  V is victories. What do I mean by that? Well, you need to celebrate the victories that you have every day and you do have victories. This ties into what I love to talk about and that's gratitude. Celebrate those victories every day and you might be thinking, well, I don't have. Yeah, you're alive. Right? So celebrate that you're alive. You're breathing wherever you believe. God, Allah, higher power, whatever you believe have given you another day.

[00:28:19.773] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's a victory. And e every day show up and do your best. Trust me, I know being a cop for a long time, there were days I didn't want to go to work. I didn't feel like it, you know Steve. But I put on my best face. I put on my best foot forward and I did a good job. And so that's evolve. And it's a micro book and you can find on my website.

[00:28:38.433] - Steve Morreale

So what's the next book? What's the focus of the next book?

[00:28:40.833] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

You know, I don't know,

[00:28:42.033] - Steve Morreale

OK.

[00:28:42.423] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

I mean, I'd love to. I've been kicking around some ideas. I love the topic of mindset. I love gratitude, like I just said.

[00:28:48.243] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And I think that is so important. No matter what you're doing out there, first responder, banker or whatever, I think mindset is just so, so key. You know, you mentioned before we started, brother, I was talking to a Navy SEAL. You know, a good friend of mine was a Navy SEAL commander, actually lives here in Colorado, a Navy SEAL commander. You know what he does now? He's a mindfulness coach, is a meditation coach.

[00:29:09.103] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And the point of that for your listener is there's a reason why elite units like the SEALs, Rangers, all these military units, NFL teams, and there will be these professional sports teams are engaging in mindfulness practices because it works. It works. So for the listener out there who thinks that meditation and mindfulness is just for the people floating around in robes with their legs crossed, that's that's nonsense. It does work. And if you don't have a meditation practice or a mindfulness practice. Just get one, it will change your life.

[00:29:36.763] - Steve Morreale

I actually heard that on the podcast and it caught my attention and ironically, you were talking about gratitude and I walked into the house. My wife was celebrating a birthday. All kids were going to come over and she went out and she bought a sweatshirt and the sweatshirt said, grateful, just a simple word, grateful. And I kind of looked and I said, What's that about?

[00:29:53.893] - Steve Morreale

She said, I'm grateful, the kids are here. We've got a home, we're happy. It's a great thing. So it is mindset and I really appreciate that.

[00:29:59.893] - Steve Morreale

Two other questions as we wind down, Patrick. What's on your bucket list? Forgetting about life about - do you want to go somewhere? You want to do something, you want to achieve something? What's on your bucket list?

[00:30:11.023] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's a great question. And I'm a big golfer. So the bucket list that I would have is to go to Augusta one of these days to go to the Masters, not as a player, obviously, but to attend the Masters as a spectator. So that's that's a bucket list. Another bucket list of my wife and I have is to travel. You know, I'd love to go to Ireland and some other places in Europe as a kid. I was pretty blessed as a kid because my dad was a military guy.

[00:30:34.243] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

So we lived over in Germany. But that was a very young age in my life. I don't really remember of it. So I would love to travel Europe again with my wife or at that age now where we don't have any kids at home and we're empty nesters. The exception of our baby dog who acts like a baby human. But yeah, those are probably my my top bucket list is travel Europe. And selfishly, I'd love to attend the Masters at some point.

[00:30:58.153] - Steve Morreale

Nothing wrong with that.

[00:30:59.653] - Steve Morreale

So the last the last question I have for you, if you had the choice to sit down with somebody who is either dead or alive but has notoriety, who would that be? Whose brain would you like to pick somebody that you would not necessarily have direct access to?

[00:31:18.203] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Wow, that is a great, great question, and there's so many, but if I could pick one and he's still alive and probably Tony Robbins, I love Tony Robbins.

[00:31:31.483] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

He's a great inspiration. He's one of those people that has come from he wasn't born with a silver silver spoon in his mouth. He actually came from very humble beginnings and abusive childhood. But he overcame.

[00:31:42.613] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And that's really inspirational to me because not that I came from that background, but I just love the way he talks about his experiences. I love his work he's doing now. He's just an inspiration. And so I would love to sit down and pick his brain and just talk with him about his view of the world and some of the challenges that he had throughout his life and how he overcame them. And it all set. And I know what it probably some of the answers would be.

[00:32:10.133] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Not exactly. But again, it's about mindset, what we talked about and having that win win attitude, and that if I fail, I'm going to get up and keep going.

[00:32:19.483] - Steve Morreale

Well, it sounds like it's going back to Vincent Peale, the mind over matter or the Power of Positive Thinking. I think that's so important. And I guess guys like you and me and this is a little side piece, but guys like you and me, we've kind of done all right in our lives and yet, why are we doing this?

[00:32:42.313] - Steve Morreale

You know, why? My wife will often ask, like, why are you doing this? Why are you taking on more? But it's something that drives us, you know, the desire to impact others, to bring ideas to others and to pose those questions. And I think in one way, what you are doing is leading through questions. You're asking questions. You're bringing things forward to try to have an impact on other people.

[00:33:08.203] - Steve Morreale

And that is inspirational.

[00:33:09.693] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Oh, I appreciate it, brother. And I love you know, there's an old saying out there, and I know you, Steve, and your listeners probably do. Look, if you're doing what you're passionate about, you'll never work in a day in your life. And like I said, I've been really blessed throughout my life. I am genuinely blessed. And the show we talk a lot about podcasting. I just love it. 

[00:33:26.263] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And again, I love giving back to the profession and whoever is going to listen to the show. And I'm passionate about it and I love it. And I love asking those questions, like you said, and just having one on one conversations with people. And that's what brings me joy. That's what puts a smile on my face, among other things. Not just that, but I really love sitting down like we're doing right now and talking to great people like you and guests and having really good conversations.

[00:33:48.553] - Steve Morreale

Well, that was going to be my final question. But one of the other questions that came to mind, as you were just saying that. So here you are starting a podcast you four years in. I know that there is a way to figure out who's listening, how many and all of those kinds of things. But does it not amaze you who's picking you up with the with the wonders of Internet and where they are from? Can you talk about where people are listening to you from?

[00:34:10.483] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:34:11.383] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And you can you know, most sites have, hosting sites that where you have your hosting, have the analytics, Google Analytics. You can see where people are listening because majority of my people are in the United States. But I do have people in the UK, I do have people in Europe that listen to me. I actually had an officer reach out to me from God I can't remember where in Africa.

[00:34:31.783] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

He reached out to me a couple of years ago. And I apologize. I don't know exactly, but I was able to see the data come through. And it's just amazing that we live in this. I think we live in one of the greatest times ever. As far as technology go, Steve, we're having this conversation through technology. I mean, something that was unheard of not so long ago. But now we can reach a ton of people with through a great conversation.

[00:34:53.383] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And people have the ability, maybe not in every country, but a lot of places around the world to listen to this great show. So the answer, your question. Majority of my listeners are from the United States, obviously, but I do have pockets from around the world, really not every place around the world. But it's always cool to see where people are listening from. I actually had another person, I think from Chile about a year ago reach out to me and said, hey, can you annunciate a little bit more?

[00:35:17.503] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Because I'm trying to learn English. We love your show. My department. It was a small police department of like fifteen people. He said, I can you can you slow down on your talking because I have a tendency to talk fast. And so it's it's just great to get that feedback. And I reached out to him personally and told him, I look, I thanks for listening. I sent him a book. And it's just amazing to get that that view of where you're reaching in the world.

[00:35:39.763] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

That's what drives me, man. That's that's what that's what I love saying. And it keeps me going.

[00:35:43.963] - Steve Morreale

You helped me start out as a newbie and I start looking at there's people listening from Ireland and the UK and Russia, Russia. What happened? It is. It is amazing. And why are you listening to me in California and why are you listening to me in Seattle? And I absolutely love it. And that's why I'm not focusing, as you are, on people just from the Northeast, but from across the globe. In fact, let me say that coming up, I'll be talking to Chief Superintendent for the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

[00:36:09.893] - Steve Morreale

So I've got an inspector from the Garda in Ireland and somebody is going to be here from the Met the Metropolitan. So that's the neat part, because what's the last thing I'll say is what you realize is that. If you've been in this business and you shake hands with a fellow officer, as you said a hundred times, you're a brother, and that's amazing that's something you can never throw away. Yeah.

[00:36:30.973] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

And don't for a new podcasters out there, if I could just mention really quick, Steve, is don't focus on the listenership. Don't focus on I got to have a million downloads in a month. Don't focus on that. Is that important? Yes. But you need to focus and be really dialed in on your content in your guests. And just you got to be passionate about it because there's a lot of podcasts out there that fail that they don't go anywhere because people have these expectations of what it's going to be like.

[00:36:56.683] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Look, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. If you want to provide a good podcast, you can't just look at it from a money perspective and a download perspective. If you focus on what's really important, providing great content, having great guests, the rest is going to come through me.

[00:37:11.083] - Steve Morreale

Yes, it's going to come and it's people like you that help that happen. So I appreciate it.  We have been talking to Patrick Fitzgibbons in Colorado. He is the host and the producer of the CJ Evolution Podcast. You can find his work by searching the Internet, CJ Evolution or at CJEvolution.Com. Patrick. thanks.

[00:37:28.963] - Patrick Fitzgibbons

Steve,  an honor brother. Keep the fantastic work. I can't wait for you to come on my show.

[00:37:33.593] - Steve Morreale

I'll be there soon. Thanks, everybody. You've been listening to Steve Morreale here in Boston on The CopDoc Podcast. We'll see you on the next episode.