TCD Podcast: Armand LaBarge - Ep022 Retired Chief York Regional Police Service, Ontario Canada

Today's episode release is with Armand LaBarge from Canada.  We sat down with Chief Amand LaBarge (retired) formerly of the York Regional Police Service, outside of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.   The agency serves a population in excess of 1 million.  We talked about the history of policing the current issues confronting policing in North America, the Insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, leadership, mental health issues, indigenous populations,  and the future of policing.  An interesting, far-ranging interview that we feel you will enjoy.  

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:02.640] - Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas, The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing, communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:00:37.520] - Steve Morreale

Well, hello again, everybody, this is Steve Morreale, and you're listening to The CopDoc Podcast, I'm coming to you from Boston and I have the distinct pleasure of talking to a colleague from north of the border in Canada, former chief, retired now Armin LaBarge, who I have come to know through some of the work that I do with Walden University.  So good morning to you.

[00:00:56.840] - Armand LaBarge

Morning, how are you?

[00:00:57.800] - Steve Morreale

I am fine, thank you very much. I can see you. The audience can't see you, but I'd like to do is to start by asking you to tell the listeners about yourself, how you came to policing, how long you've been doing it. Rose to become the chief of a regional police agency, the York Regional Police in Canada near Toronto. So tell us the story.

[00:01:14.630] - Armand LaBarge

So I was introduced into policing by my family. I had two brothers that were police officers and a couple of cousins that were police officers. And I used to listen to stories about policing from all of them. And it kind of crept into my system. And before, you know, when I graduated from high school, I decided I was going to join York Regional Police, which is a brand new police service just north of Toronto, and then joined as a cadet and been there for the duration of my police career.

[00:01:39.650] - Armand LaBarge

You said it's more than 30, almost 40 years, almost 40 years. And I did some consulting work after I retired. And I've been involved in the post-secondary education sector since then as well.

[00:01:49.430] - Steve Morreale

Talk about the size of that agency, Toronto being a major city in Canada, like,  New York in many ways. But tell us about the demographics of the New York Regional Police.

[00:01:59.270] - Armand LaBarge

When I started there in 1973, it was a relatively small police service and we were what they call a regional police service. Unlike the United States, the movement in Ontario and in Canada has been to larger police services. So the smaller police services are disappearing because of the requirements of policing today and the liabilities associated to that.

[00:02:17.150] - Armand LaBarge

So we regionalized in 1971. I started in 1973 and as a regional police service, there was one police service for nine separate municipalities. And that meant I had to deal with, when I was chief, nine mayors and a regional chair and a regional council. And if you can appreciate, there are some complexities associated to that. And we grew exponentially as far as the region goes, being on the northern border of Toronto and we police this massive area.

[00:02:43.220] - Armand LaBarge

We grew to over 1.1 million citizens when I retired. And demographically, we were one of the most ethnically and racially diverse communities anywhere in Canada. And there were cities in our region that had a diversity rate of about 75 and 80 percent when I retired. And that diversity has continued today and tremendous growth. When I was a chief at one point in time, we were growing by about 35 to 40000 citizens a year, and most of those citizens were coming from China and  India. They were basically new Canadians that were being introduced to our criminal justice system and our system of laws and are having the very first time talk about your trajectory as you were through the department.

[00:03:20.780] - Steve Morreale

Clearly, you started as a cadet, you said, and I'm sure you move to patrol. And what are some of the jobs that you took along the way on the climb to the top?

[00:03:29.240] - Armand LaBarge

I think the first job and probably the the most inspirational job for my perspective was when I worked in records. When I started as a young cadet, I was put into the records bureau where I learned to type significantly better than most of the other officers. So I obviously could do reports faster and whenever they were called upon to take statements or whatever have you, I was being pulled in. So I learned a lot from that experience. But I did the regular, as you can imagine, the routine patrol patrol in the Newmarket area, which is a municipality just about mid region.

[00:03:59.510] - Armand LaBarge

And then I went to the detective office in a larger municipality, southern part of the region called Richmond Hill. And we at that time policed three different municipalities from a detective perspective. So I worked general detective assignments and then I specialized in white collar crime and fraud, but did all kinds of different crimes. And then I was assigned to my favorite posting, which was the Intelligence Bureau. So I did organized crime investigations. We had a surveillance unit and then rose through the ranks through a different administrative position.

[00:04:27.020] - Armand LaBarge

And so I was appointed a deputy chief and then the chief of police in 2002. Ironically, I just spoke with Gerry Raclette, who was the writer and the author of Intelligence led policing just yesterday. And I guess then I'll release that in a few weeks. But why was that your favorite? The intelligence group?

[00:04:43.290] - Armand LaBarge

It was the opportunity to work in areas that I had a passion for, and that was outlaw motorcycle gangs, organized crime. We were just being introduced into intelligence gathering on terrorist organizations, the operation, the opportunity to liaise with provincial and federal agencies and international agencies. And I just found it quite exciting. And I had read quite widely in that area. It was an area that I was particularly interested in. And I tended to focus my attention to that area when I was a younger officer.

[00:05:10.820] - Armand LaBarge

So I spent a lot of time putting in intelligence reports. And I think that's ultimately why the chief decided that's where I should be great.

[00:05:16.770] - Steve Morreale

So talk about the size of the police department as it exists today and how it grew during your tenure.

[00:05:22.760] - Armand LaBarge

So we are one of the largest police services in Canada today. We have 6500 sworn officers and 600 civilian staff. So we were the third largest municipal police service in Ontario, Toronto police service, obviously, with the. Five thousand officers Peel Regional Police and then York Regional Police, so ironically enough, the larger police services are within the greater Toronto area. That area is about 5.5 million people. And we were one point one one point two million of that of that population base.

[00:05:53.090] - Armand LaBarge

But there are larger police services. RCMP is a national police service that are the largest. The Ontario Provincial Police, which is a provincial agency in Ontario, would be the second largest, and then Quebec and then Toronto and coming down from there.

[00:06:06.230] - Steve Morreale

So let's talk about the kinds of things that kept that police department busy and what you did or what you remember was the setup of that organization. So you had clearly patrol, but what were some of the specialized units that were necessary during your time?

[00:06:20.420] - Armand LaBarge

Well, when I started in 1973, it was literally just two. You had the uniformed patrol officers and the criminal investigation or the detective officers. It was called then. And obviously, as the population increased in the region and crime became much more complex, we were required to set up specialized agencies, including an intelligence bureau, special services or surveillance unit. As time progressed, we set up the same sophisticated agencies you would see in Toronto, police or regional police here in Canada with canine units, traffic units, all the specialized squads that exist probably in the larger police departments in the United States.

[00:06:55.890] - Armand LaBarge

So it changed dramatically, I would say probably starting in the mid to late 80s and into the 90s. And today it doesn't resemble anything like what it was when I joined in 1973.

[00:07:06.440] - Steve Morreale

So along the way, in towards the end of your career, technology became quite important in terms of using technology, figuring out technology, using technology to solve crimes. Tell me how you push the organization and how you had to be pushed to talk about it, think about it and wrestle with that. Cell phones came into existence and all of the things that we've had to morph into.

[00:07:29.090] - Armand LaBarge

Well, as you can appreciate, I spent almost 40 years in policing, so I lived through the technological changes, you know, from the introduction of the very first computer system in the police service to significantly upgrading the computer system while I was the chief. And with each of those changes, there became there came opposition. Obviously, people had become very comfortable with the  legacy systems and resisted changing to the new systems until they could appreciate how much easier their job was and how much more opportunity there was to solve crime and deal with community issues with the enhanced I.T. capabilities.

[00:08:00.530] - Armand LaBarge

But I remember the days when pagers were the big thing and how that revolutionized policing. And then cell phones obviously revolutionized policing and then the existence of CCTV systems and security cameras. I mean, and then when DNA became the way to solve crimes and now genealogical backgrounds solving crime, I mean, there's been an incredible evolution in policing in a lot of it is based on technology.

[00:08:24.950] - Armand LaBarge

Can you imagine you just saying that pagers revolutionized policing?  I mean, thinking about what we have now, I mean, certainly it was a big change for us. I didn't have to stop all of the time to see if anybody needed me. But I remember having to get the pager and not having a cell phone and stopping at a payphone.

[00:08:41.390] - Armand LaBarge

Remember those days and then you got a pager that actually sent you a message. So that was even more revolutionary.

[00:08:48.290] - Steve Morreale

That was like, that was like the initial text message.

[00:08:51.320] - Armand LaBarge

But I also remember when trying to take pagers away from officers because we had morphed into cell phones and they resisted that. They resisted. The old joke was, you can always tell who a drug squad officer was because he or she had to pay those personal pager and their drug baby.

[00:09:07.130] - Steve Morreale

Well, I find it interesting because we talk about policy for a minute, because you have to constantly stay on top policy. But I remember and I badger people in training to say, what do your policies say now? How will the detectives be notified? Does it still say that they will be paged? Because if you do not have it, you know what I'm saying?  In other words when on the stand, you say, all right, Detective LaBarge, can you show us your pager?

[00:09:30.260] - Steve Morreale

And you'd say, I don't have a pager. I have a cell phone. And yet your policy says so. I see you smirk on that. But tell me about that.  We have to keep constant, right?

[00:09:38.420] - Armand LaBarge

It's true because you do tend to use nouns and verbs that were appropriate for 20 and 30 years ago. And they get into your system. And before you know it, the system has changed so dramatically. You need to go back and refresh those words because the technology has changed quite dramatically. So you're right in that. And that's an important consideration because I think it impacts on the perception of the professionalism of your police service and efficient and effective you are as well.

[00:10:03.950] - Steve Morreale

So one of the things that we focus is policing today. And one of the questions I would like to ask and get your opinion on, is what you believe, what you saw on January 6th when you saw what happened to the Capitol just south of you from Canada in the United States. What were your impressions as you were watching?

[00:10:21.650] - Armand LaBarge

Well, a lot of the American viewers may not appreciate how closely we in Canada monitor and watch what's happening in the United States and certainly last over the last four years than ever before. And I think probably 90 percent of the population was watching. Bolden obviously quite upset and upset that it was happening to our neighbor to the south, were quite upset at the level of violence that was perpetrated against police officers and police officers who were unfortunately trying to do their best to hold back the crowds.

[00:10:50.780] - Armand LaBarge

But it was it was an impossible situation. And I have been in situations with mass gathering, certainly nothing to that extent. I could imagine how frightening it was for the police officers and how they were trying to do their best to contain the situation. And some real heroes evolved from that and certainly do appreciate their efforts in putting themselves in harm's way to protect and uphold their oath.

[00:11:14.520] - Steve Morreale

And one of the things that I say to people and for those of us who have done that kind of work, people didn't seem to understand why they were letting that happen. And I think what began to happen, at least from my perspective, was police officers had to make a decision. Do we protect the building or do we protect people? Clearly, the people, the elected people, including the vice president, the majority leader, House majority leader and all of the all of the members, they had to be taken care of first.

[00:11:39.350] - Steve Morreale

And so those were some critical decisions and decisive decisions that had to be made. In other words, discretion had to be taken into account right there. What's your sense of that?

[00:11:48.380] - Armand LaBarge

Well, and part of my area of research has to do with police response to to indigenous protests and first-nation protests. So I understand and appreciate that there are decisions that need to be made. And there's no shortage of armchair quarterbacks and experts after the fact that criticizing police for what they did or didn't do. And I agree. 100 percent in those particular situations, the buildings are not certainly as important as protecting the people. And you have to make decisions that based on the best information that you have and based on that particular moment.

[00:12:19.840] - Armand LaBarge

And I think in the long run, the fact that that most of those officers, there were some injuries, obviously one officer lost his life. But the fact that they managed to come through that I think speaks volumes about their profession.

[00:12:30.380] 

So we talk an awful lot about officer wellness and certainly the rise in mental health calls that we get. But let's talk about officer wellness for a minute. Is this a topic that I know you're very, very active in the chief's associations up there? Is this a topic being discussed it up north in Canada? Most assuredly. In fact, we have a number of major organizations and provincial police is a real leader in this area. The York Regional Police, Toronto police are real leaders in this area.

[00:12:55.920] - Armand LaBarge

But the issue of post-traumatic stress disorder and in police suicide, very topical in Canada and certainly here in Ontario. And there are a number of new support mechanisms and use of opportunities for officers to take advantage of the challenges, obviously encouraging those officers to take advantage of that. A lot of that has to do with the culture releasing that you're well aware.

[00:13:14.480] - Steve Morreale

So how do you approach that? How did you as a chief approach that? How do your successors approach that to let people know that it is OK? And it actually should be natural that when you see something that is horrific, that is going to have an impact on you and that we want you not to seek help or that you've got mental issues, but you have to deal with that first so that you can get back to some normalcy. What's your thought on that?

[00:13:37.670] - Armand LaBarge

Well, we had professionally trained officers and professionals involved in critical incident stress management teams, and we would reach out to officers not waiting for them to reach out to us when they responded to a critical incident situation and wasn't just the front line officers. I was in charge of our communication center one time and we had hundreds of nine one one operators and dispatchers. And they had to deal with people that were threatening to commit suicide or people that reporting horrific crimes and that impacted on their mental stability as well, and making sure that you make sure that you don't just focus on the frontline officers, that everyone that potentially is impacted by these types of situations needs to be reached out to.

[00:14:18.500] - Armand LaBarge

I think it's important, too, for their peers to encourage them to reach out to these agencies or to get engaged. And we had officers killed in the line of duty. And I saw firsthand the impact that brother and sister officer had watching one of their own being killed, a pat on them and on their mental stability, too. So it's important to make sure that they understand and appreciate that the 60s and the 70s were the approach to post-traumatic stress was just that's part of the job, suck it up type of thing that no longer exist.

[00:14:46.130] - Armand LaBarge

And you need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your family and that you can do your job.

[00:14:51.020] - Steve Morreale

Thank you. We're talking about Armand LaBarge, the former chief of the York Regional Police Department in Canada just outside of Toronto.  I want to start to talk about leadership. So here you are, a former big shot, still a big shot, but you rose to be the chief. And I'm curious to know where you  learned to be a leader, where you learned the difference between management and leadership, what kind of training was provided, what kind of ideas came from others that you were exposed to? Where did you seek that information? And do you think that policing today is doing a good enough job of developing leaders?

[00:15:25.100] - Armand LaBarge

Certainly a much better job today than when I started back in the 70s. I actually had the benefit of working with a chief by the name of Don Leighton, who was incredibly passionate. About the passion and that passion was translated into everything he did and how he cared for the community and how he made sure that he reached out to the community and established partnerships, especially with agencies that had a hesitancy to engage themselves with policing. If you don't appreciate the citizens that were coming to our region were coming from countries where the police were aggressive and extension of a potentially a communist or dictatorial type of a government.

[00:16:00.380] - Armand LaBarge

So their fear of policing was innate when they came here, and we really had to make efforts to create partnerships within them. I benefited from the FBI National Academy program I attended there. I also benefited from post-secondary education. I was a big believer in that at a time when that wasn't the norm within policing where you literally like. I just needed a high school diploma to get into policing and where most of the officers above you, especially in the senior senior ranks, literally just had the high school education as well.

[00:16:28.100] - Armand LaBarge

They were good police officers, don't get me wrong. But I benefited from management courses at colleges and universities. And I think that actually helped me along the way.

[00:16:35.750] - Steve Morreale

When you rose through the ranks, you were deputy or chief. What did you do as you were looking at what best practices were in other large agencies to enhance the leadership development of people who were rising to the ranks, the people who had promised?

[00:16:50.000] - Armand LaBarge

Well, certainly identifying individuals who we felt were capable of rising to leadership roles within the organization and making sure that they had opportunities available to them should they wish to take advantage of them. And I sent officers to the international commander's course in Great Britain. I ensured that officers had opportunities to go to the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police, which I was the president in long before we established partnership with the University of Toronto Rotman School of Business, where we actually taught leadership to senior officers and some of these officers.

[00:17:19.970] - Armand LaBarge

It was the first time that actually been exposed to that high level of post-secondary education. So it was tremendous. I know. I know police established partnerships with a college where a lot of the officers were getting baccalaureate degrees because of their their experience and the courses that they've taken in policing. And then with the additional policing, there are a number of new partnerships here in Ontario for police officers at the University of well, Humber and your university, which I'm affiliated now, is just the start of the new Asara Policing and Wellness and Community Wellness degree.

[00:17:48.030] - Armand LaBarge

So there are all kinds of new opportunities for police officers to secure post-secondary education and to assist them as they looking to rise within the ranks within policing. So what would you say are the top three issues that are confronting policing in Canada?

[00:18:03.980] - Armand LaBarge

Not unlike the United States, the economics of policing would be one of the top issues. Police legitimacy, I would say, is right up there with the economics of policing. And you mentioned police mental health issues. That to me is one of the significance. And the police legitimacy issue has to deal with the whole issue of racism and discrimination, systemic racism. And there are a number of police services and the Canadian forces in Canada really right now as a consequence to allegations of racism and discrimination within their ranks and misogyny within their ranks.

[00:18:35.960] - Armand LaBarge

And there have been inquiries and reports undertaken and a commitment to make changes. And those commitments were made 15, 20 years ago. And still the same exists today. And of course, all of that, I think, contributes a lot to the police mental health issue that we're all having to deal with these days, too. But I'd say the economics of policing our budget was a quarter of a billion dollars. It's over three hundred and fifty million dollars now.

[00:18:58.520] - Armand LaBarge

Twenty nine cents of every taxpayers dollars in York region was going towards policing. The Toronto police budget just surpassed a billion dollars. So you can appreciate police officer salaries have risen dramatically. And I mean, obviously, officers earn those salaries. Being a first class constable in New York, which now makes over one hundred thousand dollars a year, when you start to add up the fact that 85, 90 percent of our police budget is human resource cost, you can appreciate that becoming a part of a municipal or provincial or national budget, that's hard to sustain.

[00:19:27.800] - Steve Morreale

So there are some similarities and certainly dissimilarities between policing north of the border and here in the United States. But use of force issues and what you see that has happened, the George Floyd incident and others that have happened can go on and on and on.

[00:19:41.970] - Steve Morreale

Are those being used in your agency, your former agency, as teachable moments, as learning operate?

[00:19:48.290] - Armand LaBarge

Most assuredly. We we have our own incidents, though, as well, Stephen. So we're not just relying on the incidents happening south of the border as teaching moments, our organizations and our officers. And obviously what happens in the United States gets a far more media attention than what happens in Canada. But we certainly have had a number of incidents where use of force has contributed to the death of an individual all too often associated to wellness checks or coming into contact with individuals who are struggling with mental health issues and even being called to schools, grade schools to deal with a student, a young student, a seven, eight, 10 year old student acting out.

[00:20:24.230] - Armand LaBarge

And I continue to question why we're being called to the schools to do that and why that isn't something that that school authorities aren't having to deal with and dealing with far more appropriately than calling armed police officers and. There are ways we're exploring, as well as how we respond to wellness checks and individuals in the mental health crisis so that they don't result in this series, serious injuries and deaths that we've seen here in Canada and that we know you've seen in the United States as well.

[00:20:49.210] - Steve Morreale

So has the cry for defunding crept up into Canada?

[00:20:53.590] - Armand LaBarge

It has.  The city of Toronto, there was a demand for defunding the police service. There certainly hasn't gone the way it has in some parts of the United States. The premier of the province of Ontario rejected any notion of defunding the Ontario provincial police and felt that they needed additional officers and as a consequence put more money into their budget to ensure that they do have additional officers. And the funding usually equates to, in some people's minds, taking officers off the road and putting money into other agencies.

[00:21:21.350] - Armand LaBarge

And there is an appetite. I can tell you right now, I listen to the president of the Canadian chiefs and the Ontario chiefs talk about there are ways to divert money into agencies that might be better equipped to deal with some of the issues that we have to deal with. I've said, Stephen, before that police officers have become the janitors of society and we are expected to deal with the issues that other agencies once dealt with and no longer deal with or whatever new problems emerge within society as a result of the fact that we're there 24/7, 365 were there all the time when we were on the street.

[00:21:54.190] - Armand LaBarge

And we're having to and deal with issues associated to homelessness, to mental health types of issues. And we are ill-equipped to deal with many of the challenges that exist in society today, but have basically fallen on our shoulders because nobody else is doing.

[00:22:07.840] - Steve Morreale

So you've been retired for a little while, but how do you keep your fingers in policing? Like myself, I retired several years ago, but I'm still engaged. Tell us how you're engaged in policing and how you keep up to date.

[00:22:19.150] - Armand LaBarge

So when I retired, I actually did some consulting work for the province of Ontario and I did some consulting work in Jamaica as well for the Jamaica Constabulary. But I was part of a team led by the Honorable Justice Michael Clark. And we looked at civilian oversight in policing and then we looked at carding or stop and frisk, I think is what you might call it in New York. But our civilian oversight is different here in Canada and certainly in Ontario.

[00:22:42.670] - Armand LaBarge

We actually have separation between mayors and councilors and police services. So the mayor or the city administrator has no control over the police service and can't direct the police chief. And you can't direct the police service, as we call them, here in Canada. And we have independent agencies that come in like the Special Investigations Unit. If an officer shoots at someone, shoots and kills someone, shoots and injure someone or uses force and injures them, there's a special agency not comprised of police officers that come in and investigates that.

[00:23:10.960] - Armand LaBarge

And then we have a separate agency used to be called the Office of the Independent Police Review Director. Now it's called the Law Enforcement Complaints Agency that investigates ordinary complaints about attitudes of police officers or if they were spoken similarly to them, those types of situations. And we have a new inspector general of policing. So the new inspectorate is overseeing the creation of new regulations. So that's a significant difference between the two. But so I was involved in the civilian oversight and made some recommendations, along with Justice Alito and our team, some of which have been embraced, some of which are we're still waiting patiently for.

[00:23:44.050] 

And then the second study I was involved in was police carding, where a disproportionate number of young black men and indigenous men and women to some extent were being stopped by police for simply walking or being in a public area and demanding that they produce identification and situations such as that, which led to to appreciate a deterioration in trust and confidence between diverse communities and policing and complicated issues. When you're trying to solve crimes where you've had 10 witnesses, nobody of whom wants to come forward.

[00:24:15.100] - Armand LaBarge

And I've always said that, why would they if you've disrespected them for 364 days a year and then on the one day where you actually need them to participate or cooperate with the police, they refuse to do so.

[00:24:24.910] - Steve Morreale

I want to go back to when you began the rise to be responsible for more than yourself, whether that's as a sergeant or whatever that role might have been. You were supervisor. You managed people as you morphed into that position, talk about the mistakes that you made and what you learn from the missteps.

[00:24:42.160] - Armand LaBarge

You know, I can recall going out of the region for meetings or events and then coming back. And as I recall, as I would drive in New York region and I would see the sign you were entering New York region or something of that nature and the population, one point one million, I think it was at that time. I can remember thinking, you know, I'm the chief of police. And it wasn't so much the officers that I was leading and providing support and guidance to.

[00:25:06.490] 

It was the one point one million citizens that I was responsible, along with the six hundred officers and six hundred civilian support staff that exists today for their safety and security. And that's an incredible responsibility of you. Can you can appreciate that they relied on us to work with them to keep the community safe. I think that was a lesson I learned from Chief Donald Elliot, was that you don't and can't do it alone, that you really do require partnerships within your community.

[00:25:31.840] - Armand LaBarge

And if I could be critical of myself, is that I would suggest that I did an. A lot in that area, but there was much more that could have and is being done today, and I reached out to communities, worked hard to establish partnerships with them, created scholarships that the police actually funded for young members of those communities so that we could break down some of the barriers. And so from that perspective, that was an integral part of my commitment to keeping our communities safe.

[00:25:56.540] - Armand LaBarge

And that was by engaging them so that they actually had a role or responsibility and wanted to actually provide assistance to us and to themselves and making sure that they lived in safe communities. Beyond that, I mean, obviously, there are moments where you reflect on could I have handled this differently? Could have handled that differently? Most assuredly. And you grow into the position of being a chief and being a leader. And but I just think that, as I reflected, since I retired, I enjoyed certain parts of the job in certain parts of the job, were much more challenging.

[00:26:26.210] - Armand LaBarge

But I wouldn't trade a moment of time for what I have today.

[00:26:29.660] - Steve Morreale

So at any time were you micromanaged?

[00:26:31.580] - Armand LaBarge

Most assuredly.

[00:26:32.750] - Steve Morreale

How did feel how did it feel?

[00:26:34.520] - Armand LaBarge

I think as chief, we feel a responsibility for everything I felt the responsibility of. I drove into a police station and I saw a Canadian flag on a flagpole that was in tatters. I thought to myself, that's not right. And if there anything I respected was the flag and the men and women of the Canadian forces who sacrificed their lives for the democracy and the freedoms that we enjoy today.

[00:26:55.050] - Armand LaBarge

So those things were important to me. I would often remind the commanders of those stations that they have a responsibility to make sure that when first impressions you don't get a second first the second chance to make your first impressions of those people, walk into your buildings, make sure that they're clean, make sure that there aren't cigaret butts out front, make sure that it's a welcoming environment, and make sure that the officer at the front desk stands up and greets them and does so in a dignified manner situation.

[00:27:20.090] - Armand LaBarge

And I've gone into police stations where that hasn't happened. And if that was called micromanagement, then I'm guilty of having done that because I think those things are important, how clean the officers look, the fact that they're they're not wearing uniforms that are not within our standards. And that's a phenomena that's creeping up here as well in Canada, where the thin blue line, the officers are taking and putting things into the uniform, that's not permitted. So I have been part of that whole movement to ensure that that doesn't happen.

[00:27:48.230] - Armand LaBarge

But, yeah, I've certainly had situations where I worked in the detective office where every move you made was critiqued and criticized or every move that you made was was put under a microscope and is certainly not the way you want to police in this day and age and not the way you want to manage your lead in this day and age.

[00:28:03.110] - Steve Morreale

You just said standard and it conjured in my mind, training standards. Do you think the police are receiving appropriate training? Is there a better job that we can do? And I know it costs money? What's your sense in that?

[00:28:13.460] - Armand LaBarge

It costs money and it takes time away from them, obviously being on the road or doing their job. And we do a 40-hour annual requalification training. Part of that is firearms and use of force training, which is mandatory, which doesn't leave you an awful lot of time the other two days for the other training that's required every time there's a significant issue. What of the solutions to an issue that's either recommended by a coroner's inquest or a civil case or something of that nature?

[00:28:40.950] - Armand LaBarge

A study or report is more training and it does take time. It does take money and there's never enough training. But I certainly can tell you that it has been enhanced cultural awareness training. Those types of training opportunities have been enhanced far more than when I first started in policing. And we need to continue to invest in training. But there are new ways of training as well, Stephen. So it's not just sitting in a classroom. There are new technologies that are being used to actually enhance training their training opportunities immediately following an incident that you can take advantage of where it's fresh in your mind.

[00:29:10.910] - Armand LaBarge

And as you said before, this whole issue of using something that's happened somewhere else is a training or a learning opportunity is critical because you have a real life experience on which to draw and which to show to the officer.

[00:29:23.030] - Steve Morreale

What's on your bucket list?

[00:29:24.200] - Armand LaBarge

Finish my PhD is on my bucket list. I've been. You're getting there. You're getting there and then plugging away at that. That's that's one of my one of my major part of my bucket list.

[00:29:33.660] - Armand LaBarge

And the other one is I want to do a law degree when I've done my PhD and I've already explored that which works towards the completion of my Ph.D.. The fact that I've got something else in mind when I've done that and I have had the opportunity to sit on a number of volunteer boards, I chair a board now and I see the impact that people have legal training make on those boards. And they're often a tremendous resource for those voluntary organizations.

[00:29:56.450] - Armand LaBarge

And I want to be in a position to make that same contribution as I've witnessed personally.

[00:30:00.770] - Steve Morreale

For the benefit of listeners. Where I met Armand was actually at Walden University, where he was working with me towards his Ph.D.  For you to say that when your Ph.D. is done, you want to do law school, you are glutton for  punishment. My goodness!

[00:30:15.260] - Armand LaBarge

I have a very understanding wife, Stephen, and my wife. I have to add, as a 35 year veteran of policing and while I was dealing with budgets and politicians and my wife spent the bulk of her career dealing with child abuse, sex assault, domestic violence investigations, and when people say, oh, you must have a hard job, I had far less of a hard job than my wife who spent. The bulk of her career dealing with those types of challenging investigations, and she was a pioneer, she was the first female officer in York region to go to Ontario Police College, and she has been extremely supportive of me throughout my career.

[00:30:48.730] - Armand LaBarge

And I hope to say I have hers as well. And I certainly couldn't have done what I did without her.

[00:30:54.370] - Steve Morreale

Armand, where do you seek counsel and advice? In other words, who do you reach out for to chat, your peers? Who do you look to challenge on perceptions and perspective?

[00:31:03.790] - Armand LaBarge

Well, I when I was chief, we had the benefit of a provincial agency called the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. So I was the president for a period of time as well. And so there are opportunities for the chiefs to consult with other chiefs and consult with other deputy chiefs within that organization and senior officers. But I'll be very candid with a lot of the counsel and advice that I got was from partners within the community. And I had established some incredible friendships that continue to exist today, long after my retirement with individuals in the community that were leaders within their communities and leaders in the Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers or the Markham African Caribbean Association leaders in what was then the Canadian Jewish Congress.

[00:31:43.930] - Armand LaBarge

All these different organizations that existed and became real true partners with York Regional Police. And I still have contact with those individuals today. So there's a particular issue, especially germane to their communities. I reach out to them, have communication, contact with them and try to support them as much as I can. Terrific.

[00:32:00.190] - Steve Morreale

So let's wind down and ask a couple more questions besides the reading that you're doing constantly and getting ready for your dissertation and your research study. What do you seek for reading? Just to kind of check out a little bit. You know, do you read articles to your book? What types?

[00:32:16.390] - Armand LaBarge

I'm a prolific article reader. I like to read about obviously, my area focuses on police response to indigenous protests. So anything to do with indigenous issues, anything to do with First Nation or any other meaty issues in Canada has far more focus on those particular issues than certainly in the United States, albeit there are a lot of articles that I read associated to the United States as well. But we have a very active indigenous presence here in Canada. They were the first peoples of this country and of this land and have been treated shamefully over the generations and continue to experience all kinds of racism and discrimination treaties that were made and broken, denying them opportunities to exercise their inherent rights on their land and treaties that should have been honored along the way.

[00:33:03.490] - Armand LaBarge

So that's an area of particular interest for me. So I read whatever I can, new authors. And there's certainly a lot of material now being written by indigenous peoples, which I think are incredibly insightful, a far more insightful than someone who isn't part of that community. Referencing that and anything to do with policing, anything to do with racism and discrimination. I am an avid news reader and read this all around the world about what's happening in the United Kingdom is particularly interesting these days and some of the pushback that they've been experiencing most recently as well and how it's impacting on  relations going forward.

[00:33:35.260] 

Well, even when we're watching over there. I mean, Covid has impacted us and the shutdown protests and all of those things going on. Let me finish with one last question. If you had an opportunity to talk to somebody alive or dead who's famous or infamous, who would you sit down to pick their brain?

[00:33:51.100] - Armand LaBarge

I wish you had asked me that before. I might have had a quick answer for you. I really struggle with that one. Obviously famous or infamous. I can tell you, I'd love to have had more conversation with my father before he passed away. So from a personal perspective, that would be the one individual that I would like to have a new conversation with these days.

[00:34:08.110] - Steve Morreale

We've been talking with Ahmed LaBarge, who was the former chief of the York Regional Police. I want to thank you for your time, Ahmed. As you sit in, is it warmer up there in Canada?

[00:34:17.170] - Armand LaBarge

Actually, we've had a few mild days today. It's four degrees. It is four degrees. So we're expecting some rain, but we've had a little bit of spring.

[00:34:24.040] - Steve Morreale

Well, four degrees Celsius, right. Or degrees Celsius because, you know, that would make us shudder. Like, you're happy about four degrees is like, wow. Well, listen, I appreciate it very much. Thanks for joining us. And I will be talking to you again soon.

[00:34:37.370] - Armand LaBarge

Thank you, take care.

[00:34:38.530] - Steve Morreale

All right. You've been listening to The CopDoc Podcast. I'm Steve Morreale. Make sure you listen in for other episodes in the future. Thanks for listening.

[00:34:46.060] - Steve Morreale

Hi, everybody. A few things before you leave. First, thanks for listening. I'm so gratified to see the downloads rising in the last few months, not only from the U.S., but from across the globe. It's surprising and humbling to find students, colleagues and practitioners listening. We have a growing number of listeners in Canada, Ireland, England, Northern Ireland, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and Colombia. We appreciate your time and energy and welcome feedback.

[00:35:09.460] - Steve Morreale

Please feel free to reach out to me by email at CopDoc.Podcast@Gmail.com. That's CopDoc.Podcast@Gmail.com. Check out our website at CopDocPodcast. com. Please take the time to share podcasts with your friend if you find value in the discussions. We've had so many amazing guests and more to come who have shared their wisdom, their thoughts, their viewpoints and their innovative ideas. Most importantly, a huge thank you to those of you who show up for work in policing every day, not knowing the kinds of calls that you'll be sent on or the kinds of situations you'll find yourself in.

[00:35:43.940] - Steve Morreale

You risk your lives for people, many of whom you don't know. And for that, we owe you a debt of gratitude. A big thanks and hope you stay safe, healthy and look forward to hearing from you and hope you'll continue to listen to upcoming episodes of The CopDoc Podcast. Thanks very much.

[00:36:01.560] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.