The CopDoc Podcast Ep 023 Professor Lynda R. Williams, MTSU, President, NOBLE

Lynda Williams is a retired executive of the United States Secret Service, now a professor of Practice at Middle Tennessee State University.  She is finishing up her term as president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE).

We chatted about teaching after a federal law enforcement career, issues facing policing, systemic racism in the US, teaching students interested in Criminal Justice.  Lynda provided an unvarnished view of the US Capitol attacks and national standards for the training of police in America.    

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:02.640] - Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas The CopDoc Podcast thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing, communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:00:32.780] - Intro

Well, hello, everybody, this is Steve Morreale coming to you from Boston. You're listening to The CopDoc Podcast. I have the pleasure, the distinct honor to talk to somebody who I feel is a thought leader. This is Professor Linda Williams. She is from Middle Tennessee University at this point. She's retired from the Secret Service and is now the president of Noble, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. So good morning to you, Linda.

[00:00:59.840] - Linda Williams

Good morning, Steve, and thank you for having me.

[00:01:02.060] - Steve Morreale

Thanks for being here. It is an early morning and I'm very glad to have you in your perspective, which is so, so important. And I'd like you to tell the audience yourself about how you started involved in law enforcement, your trajectory through law enforcement for such a long time, and now being like myself, an educator.

[00:01:18.800] - Linda Williams

So when I was a senior at Middle Tennessee State University, which is my alma mater, which I am very proud to be there today. I had aspirations to be an FBI agent. An agent came to speak in my class who was actually my junior year. And I said, you know what? That's what I'm going to be. So when I graduated, I had the degree and everything else, but I lacked the experience that the FBI wanted. They wanted a full time experience.

[00:01:43.580] - Linda Williams

They also wanted and or a special specialty degree, like an economics or something. So I picked up my hopes and I say, OK, we got to keep pushing. So I joined a sheriff's department in Richmond County, Georgia, and to get some law enforcement experience. And I applied for different federal agencies. And the Secret Service was one of the agencies that I applied best for. At twenty nine and a half years later, it was the best decision of my life, the highlight of being that I not only had many firsts as an African-American woman, but I was chosen as the country attaché for the United States Secret Service on the continent of Africa from 2008 to 2011, where I sit right beside President Clinton and blew my Bubel Zellar.

[00:02:25.340] - Linda Williams

But I was I was blessed. Meet Nelson Mandela on a couple of occasions when I retired at the top of my game as a deputy assistant director of the Secret Service, being one of the highest women in the history of the Secret Service. Many of my colleagues, when they would retire, they like to go into corporate security or such, and I have those opportunities. But just to share the gift to too much is given, much is required.

[00:02:47.540] - Linda Williams

And I have always had a desire to come back to you to do what I do. And they created a professorship. Professor practiced this based over all my years of 30 some plus years of law enforcement, and I am entering into my fourth year. Murfreesboro, Tennessee is my happy place because I used to have to commute two hours one way, work 10 to 12 hours and then make the two-hour commute back. Round trip. I'm about seven miles and that was a great big smile on my face.

[00:03:14.700] - Linda Williams

So law enforcement just to be a change that I wish to see. And I know that I made some inroads with the Secret Service, but even as I come back as Professor Imtiyaz to pour into those students, to let them know that they can do anything and challenge them now so they don't have to wait till they graduate to try to figure out what they're going to do. And then through all of that, I've always been a member of Noble, which is the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

[00:03:42.020] - Linda Williams

I've sat on the board several times before I became the president. You were elected as the second vice president just into the first and then you serve as national president for one year. And it has been a challenging, rewarding, tumultuous year as national president. And so this is not a happy place, my happy space. And so I'm happy and honored to sit here and talk to you this morning.

[00:04:03.260] - Steve Morreale

Well, let me tell you, so many of the things that you're saying are so impressive, the fact that you have you're saying twenty nine and a half years, it sounds like there's a whole bunch more of years that is in law enforcement, because if you spend some time as a Georgia sheriff and then at the uniformed division, how long were you down in Georgia as a deputy sheriff?

[00:04:21.480] - Linda Williams

So I graduated. I went to Augusta, Georgia. I was I was a deputy sheriff there for two years. And even as I was gaining experience, I was still pursuing I always wanted to be a federal agent. And so so it was two years as a sheriff's deputy. And then I started with the Secret Service as a uniformed officer. They came throughout the country. I was outside of Atlanta and took the test. And a year and a half later, I entered the ranks of the uniformed division.

[00:04:48.660] - Linda Williams

Now, still, I wanted to be an investigator, one of the federal agents, but I took it as an opportunity that if I could just get my foot in the door, then the rest would be history. And that's exactly what I did. I entered in the ranks in uniform division. When I got my career status, a real plot had to go through all the training again and that became a special agent. And so out of that twenty nine and a half years, three one uniform division and all inclusive, it was that as I went through the ranks of special.

[00:05:17.000] - Steve Morreale

Well, that's interesting because not necessarily everybody knows how difficult it is to become a federal agent and how much time it takes. And I think that's an important thing to think about in terms of what first of all, one of the things that we spend some time doing is spending time. Classes telling students that rejection is going to happen. Yes, right. And you better be ready for rejection because it is life and and being told no and no and no and not now.

[00:05:42.300] - Steve Morreale

When you don't have enough,  means you just go back to the drawing board. I think in my mind, I'd love to hear from your perspective what I say to students. Don't put your eggs all in one basket.

[00:05:51.740] - Linda Williams

Absolutely. You know, one, when I stand before my class, which gives me great joy, I tell them hi, it's most rewarding when they say you find your passion. I love the Secret Service, but I love, love, love being a professor and my mantra, for many of which is where academic and reality. So Steve, on the first day of school, asked them, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I know it sounds odd, but

[00:06:13.820] - Steve Morreale

No, it doesn't, I do the same thing

[00:06:15.170] - Linda Williams

want to be grown,  to do that. But I tell them you have to have a goal. And even if you miss that goal, you still have options. And so I teach them lessons learned. I'm very candid. I tell them about how I wanted to come out and go into the working world like they experienced. And I was an usher with them. I was a cute little chubby girl. I was cute, but I wasn't physically fit to go into a career in law enforcement.

[00:06:37.010] - Linda Williams

And so I used that as a challenge. Anything that I could control, I wouldn't allow it to control me. And so I'm very, very honest with them. And I tell them you have the benefit of having a person like myself. I bring in subject matter experts from all across the gamut of law enforcement so they can ask those real questions. What do they look like in their profession? What does it take? But again, you have to have goals and set and you have the Internet so you can Google just about everything, but be patient with yourself.

[00:07:05.900] - Linda Williams

Prepare yourself, but be patient with yourself as that is the challenge. And world in the job that you're going to take when you graduate probably will be the job that you're going to retire from. But you got to start somewhere and building your work ethics and you got to crawl before you walk. So, yes, I try to encourage them because they have. So this generation is instant gratification and, you know, and they always a professional musician.

[00:07:27.950] - Linda Williams

So that's it. You're looking at a second career first and happily retired as the you know what? When you get my age, then you can get some of the things, but try to get that education, get that experience and be responsible for the choices that you make as those consequences, good and bad. And so that's what I try to tell them, that you can't not blame others and you have to prepare yourself. And I teach them such things as there's a qualified effort.

[00:07:52.240] - Linda Williams

So what makes you stand out in comparison to someone else that is applying for the same job? So it is a joy to do that.

[00:07:58.400] - Steve Morreale

You know, that's interesting that you talk about that, because in terms of what we bring to the table, I would have to say I consider you a poor academic and academic that has practical experience and that's pretty special in the classroom. And I think that some of the things that similar professors can do is to first of all, you have a lot of connections. And boy, hasn't covid taught us exactly the way we're discussing right now that technology can be your friend, not your enemy, and that you don't have to fly somebody down from Washington or from Atlanta, but you can get them on Zoom and have just as important a conversation, a real conversation for your students.

[00:08:34.410] - Linda Williams

Fair and as I stated, this is where reality meets academia and this is part of it. I say this is a perfect example. No one, no one had control over Kovik, but we still had the force through and find a way. And as I tell my constituent in my membership and noble, we will take the best practices from this time. You know, everything was always in person. What we can be hyper, we can do both. But you're right.

[00:08:57.740] - Linda Williams

It's the lessons learned during these tumultuous times that we utilize to do better and to know better. And exactly. You can just log on from wherever you are. And so that's a great advantage. I've learned I wasn't a techie person. Yes. No, as an executive and Secret Service, I had somebody come to my computer if I didn't know how to turn it on. I know, but I've been challenged and I actually have to tell the students, OK, somebody get up.

[00:09:23.570] - Steve Morreale

I do it all the time.

[00:09:25.340] - Linda Williams

Yes, but this is will be stronger. And I hope that we learn from it and and take it forward, just that I'm an optimist, that I always try to find a silver lining. And the good part is that we can learn from even many, many lessons from this period in our lives doing this unprecedented Pandemic.

[00:09:44.510] - Steve Morreale

And as we talk about policing, we get away from academia, we talk about policing. I think there are so many lessons that can be learned. I know that as resistant to change as police agencies are, they're pretty damn adaptive. And we saw that. And I think one of the things we should be doing, I will tell you that we've been what we've been talking about on the podcast is our police agencies doing the things that they should do.

[00:10:03.740] - Steve Morreale

Has there been mission creep? What do we have to do to take advantage of saying we're not going to handle those calls, we're not going to go to those calls, whatever those be lower priority calls and maybe utilizing online to have people text us, to have people fill out forms, in other words, online to report something past. And just as important when you're thinking about big cities, well, think about the Secret Service DEA. We used to fly people in from all over the country.

[00:10:29.480] - Steve Morreale

All over the world. That's not necessary anymore. That's a big cost and we can get an awful lot done by Zoom or Teams or whatever. And so I think that precinct meetings and those kind of of meetings can be held virtually and still have as important an impact and allow people to go right back to work. I mean, what's your thought as you're talking to your membership?

[00:10:50.250] - Linda Williams

And it does and it gives it in real time? It's funny. Most everything that I get is Eastern Standard Time, but it's just real time across the country, across the world that you can reach it. And these are the things in law enforcement, just like everything else. We have to work with the times that we're in, even though you still have that institutional structure. Every industry has to evolve because times are changing. And to stay relevant, you have to be able to relate to the people that you're serving.

[00:11:17.720] - Linda Williams

And so, absolutely, even as we saw cases on TV and things like this, it's a way of going forth and it'll be lessons learned. And this is applicable across the board and academia policing. But we have to move with the times. And this is just a techie type of world we live in. And it either makes your break or you get left behind. But there's great lessons that we can take from just being challenged.

[00:11:39.150] - Steve Morreale

You know, the young people, the young people who are coming into organizations are digital natives. We're not you and me. And many of the chiefs are not digital natives. So you have to you know, when you're hiring people, it seems to me that one of the things you have to do is to say figure out where your holes are and plug them with people who are there. Now, one of the other things that we talked about just before we came on was this 30 by 30 initiative, which is something that is being run by the policing project out of NYU.

[00:12:05.340] - Steve Morreale

And this means that there is an attempt to push local state agencies forward to aim for 30 percent women in policing by 20 30. It seems to me that that's something that you do support. And I certainly think there should be more women in policing. I think it could be very valuable. What's your thought on that, Linda?

[00:12:23.460] - Linda Williams

I applaud that initiative. Anything. We have to make it a strategic and a holistic approach. It does not just happen overnight, particularly when we talk about women in law enforcement. As a deputy sheriff, I was the only woman in my class, even in the Secret Service. I was the only female in my class as I was chosen to lead the Secret Service as a deputy assistant director of H.R., I was very intentional about outreach and campaigning for just that.

[00:12:49.890] - Linda Williams

And so you have to make that effort even if you don't reach that goal. But it doesn't happen overnight. It's challenging, is challenging for a woman is a challenge for anybody, but even more as women, as wives, as mothers, as caregivers. But we're held to the same standards. And when we come on duty, we are anticipated to respond to whatever and ourselves. Even through most of my career, I became a single mother. And it's challenging.

[00:13:14.430] - Linda Williams

But you have to prepare yourself. You got to know who you are, who you are. But, you know, the agency has to have advice in one of the reasons that the Secret Service was more productive and so it wasn't intentional in the direction of the Secret Service, made it a initiative that all field offices, all sex, everybody had to make this effort that we have to replenish our rank and file. We had to be intentional to go to minorities even more so as women.

[00:13:39.360] - Linda Williams

And even when you do that and reach a certain goal, you know that attrition in retirement and everything else. So but it has to be a holistic approach by any department is not just left to a certain recruitment or outreach branch. It has to be outreach throughout that department. And you've got to have milestones to check to see that that initiative is being driven and being you know, as I do some training, I do an awful lot with sergeants and middle managers and executive development.

[00:14:05.280] - Steve Morreale

I'll be down in Rhode Island for a New England wide training for executives in the next day. Three things have struck me, and this is not to be negative about this, but when I walked in the other day, I had twenty-five sergeants. And my first question is, where are the women? How many of you have women in your department? Why aren't there women sergeants? Why aren't you bringing them along? Why is there not diversity in that manner?

[00:14:25.410] - Steve Morreale

And I think it takes people aback. But I if I can see that as soon as I walk in, that's a problem, you know, where are the people of color the work? But I think we have to move towards diversity. It can it can strengthen sort of perspective and and community outreach, which I think is important. You know, federal agencies seem to do a much better job of drawing women to the fold. Not so much with policing.

[00:14:47.610] - Steve Morreale

Of course, recruiting and retention has to be a discussion that you're having at Noble. Talk about that a little bit. How are we as an agency or as an institution? Sorry, how are we as an institution looking to remind people that this is not, to coin your phrase, a noble profession in more ways than one? What about recruiting and retention window?

[00:15:06.960] - Linda Williams

First of all, we as law enforcement, I think we are our best, best advocate for law enforcement. The amazing part throughout my career, people would say, wow, Linda, you don't look like a special agent. And I responded, what does a special agent look like? And I mean, I remember even want to see in the line of fire. And I was in the movie theater. And some people come in behind me like, wow, I just like the.

[00:15:31.080] - Linda Williams

One of those people, and I'm laughing to myself, because what does it look like, what it looks like to me, it looks like every individual that we have and yes, the federal government has made a more concerted effort, but it still is a challenge ongoing. It's a noble represents. Over half of the major cities in the United States are led by local leaders, sheriffs and chief executives and primarily women started out who were African-American law enforcement organization, but are a stand to end and all people.

[00:16:00.670] - Linda Williams

So we have a real diverse and inclusive membership. I have to say, like diversity is like a puzzle. And when the puzzle is connected, that's inclusion. And it's important that you bring all kinds of people into your department because we bring a different skill set. I always tell my students I was the one that would care the seventy-five pound shield through the door, but I can handle that shotgun. So you take people for their stress and work into it.

[00:16:25.320] - Linda Williams

But it has to be intentional and you have to make sure that you bring this in because we do bring a different skill set the way we think, the way we communicate and then the investment to look at things differently. It's a good balance of everything. And so you have to be inclusive of the community that you serve, which includes women and people of all different backgrounds.

[00:16:45.180] - Steve Morreale

You talk about puzzle. And one of the things that I think becomes obvious or should become obvious when we're talking about is to say, put your puzzle together, tell me what the outline is and look for your holes.

[00:16:55.890] - Linda Williams

I like that.

[00:16:55.890] 

In other words, what are the missing pieces for your agency? And you really should be going after that. So you have a bit of everything. I do something called colors. And there are people who are people, people.

[00:17:06.960] - Steve Morreale

There are people who are their risk takers and there are people who are really keen on detail. Maybe those are your computer people. There are people that we hire that are in our employ that are focus on policy and standards. And that and it seems to me that we need a group of all four to make the organization go. Well, let me let me ask you a couple of things that are so important to me. First of all, you're teaching what classes are you teaching and what's your favorite class?

[00:17:34.170] - Linda Williams

So I am a Professor of Practice in the Department of Criminal Justice Administration. I teach all classes. I always by choice. I do the intro to criminal justice. I have nothing less than two of those classes every semester. One I think is important for them to see me. They see me as a woman, to see me as a woman of color. They see me as a woman that was very blessed to be able to achieve all the accomplishments.

[00:18:00.300] - Linda Williams

But so they can see that. And then from their very community that I sit in, the very tears that they sit, you know, anything is possible if you prepare yourself. And so I think it gives a realistic approach. I've had students now since I've been in my fourth year to be graduating, and they are every year. We just completed this semester. Some of my students always come up and say, I want to be just like you.

[00:18:23.430] - Linda Williams

And I say, you can be greater than me. And that's because you have to you have to give them a goal. You have to plant the seed and let them know. I tell them all my stories that I was I didn't have the law enforcement experience that wasn't physically fit. And I had to do these things. And so I talked to them about decisions they make with drug usage. There are social media posts that you have to account for this.

[00:18:43.170] - Linda Williams

So every decision that you make today that you will have to answer for. So I stand as a testament that, you know what, when you put the hard work in, it comes to you. I teach terrorism, international relations, homeland security. But to ASU this semester and I love teaching is special issues and law enforcement. And so I do have a book, but I have the creativity to go away from the book. I supplement it with current events.

[00:19:06.420] - Linda Williams

So even with the Derek Chauvin trial, those were real life discussions and debates and to hear what they say. So I try to make it as applicable to what I tell them. This is the textbook, but then I give them a realistic approach that looks live and in color.

[00:19:21.240] - Steve Morreale

Yeah, that's terrific, because I think that the benefit that we have is that if we ignore those things, where else are they going to hear it? They're going to hear it from the media. So let them dig. Let them think. Let them say how they feel. Let them consider how they feel. Let them look at it from a different perspective. What about the Minneapolis police right now that are having to do the job that were not Derek Joven, that do not act like that. I mean, I think absolutely. I think that's really very important. And so let's talk about police reform, there's so many things we run out of time, but there's so many things. But police reform, what does that mean to you? What are you talking about among the membership?

[00:19:55.800] - Linda Williams

So when I came as president last July, one of my signature agenda items was the reimagining of public safety. I created a task force, a 90 day task force that consisted of two chairs, were past national presidents. I have representation from across the board chair of the federal sector as well as municipalities. But what we did and we were head of underwriting by wonderful law firm that said there we had listening sessions, but academia, special interest group and as well with civic leaders.

[00:20:25.980] - Linda Williams

And so everybody had their buy in. So we created a roadmap as we talk of. Reform and DEA funding and how does this look? So I'm happy to say that publication came to fruition at the beginning of May. It was the cornerstone of my CEO symposium Reimagining. So when we talk about reform, let's look at where we are. What do we have? Instead of taking away this look that's real life, we realize there's an overreliance of law enforcement across the board.

[00:20:51.910] - Speaker 3

Police officers are called in to respond to calls that they have no expertize and training. But law enforcement is the first person that you call. So when we reimagine let's look at intentional efforts in partnership with social services like mental illness, homelessness, drug addiction, domestic, all of these things that law enforcement, so not in law enforcement out but supplement these these other social services, that there was a collective effort. Because when, you know, a lot of times when you have someone having a mental episode, there is a propensity of danger.

[00:21:22.600] - Speaker 3

But have that all of that professional responding there that they can muster expertize to de-escalate that. So we have to be intentional on how we align ourselves. So when I say reform, that means this is real time for all stakeholders to to acknowledge the disparities and to take the ownership to really enact real reform, that we have to look at the way that we've been doing things and the way that we've been doing things are not acceptable in some ways. And we have to look at how do we make this applicable, that law enforcement is seen as something positive, that we are the guardians and not the war, that we're not the occupying force that comes in after everything is has happened.

[00:21:59.530] - Speaker 3

We have to have a presence to understand, acknowledge the culture in the community and acknowledge their diversity, their knowledge, their differences. But let them know that we are there as an extension of their community to protect and preserve and protect and serve them and allow them to have those freedoms inside of the law.

[00:22:16.630] - Speaker 2

So the whole idea of community policing, but knowing your community in some way, it seems that this is right. We lost it. And, you know, you lived it in 9/11. I went down to New York to help. Worst thing I've ever seen. However, what started to happen is what ended up happening, as you well know, is that there was a focus just before that was community policing and then it was terrorist and terrorist identification, terrorist prevention.

[00:22:38.200] - Speaker 2

So the money went away. And it's almost like community policing just dropped. And I think that's a big problem. I mean, we have to go through the cycles of of elections. And so money comes and money goes. Right. And you understand that. You understand that very well. So thank you for that. I do want to ask a couple of questions. What was your perspective on January 6th as a law enforcement executive for so long now in charge of Noble as as its president, what were you thinking as you were watching on TV and as I was about what was happening at our Capitol, just like anybody else there?

[00:23:08.660] - Speaker 2

Certain dates that just as you just asked me, that you always remember what you were doing and when you heard it. So initially I was home, but I am one of those radio news, so I'm always listening. So I was listening. And then when I actually got home and turned the television on about two o'clock, first, it was disbelief. It was just total disbelief that this is actually happening in the United States of America, at the nation's capital, at the US Capitol, the building I know very well the security posture and everything.

[00:23:38.980] - Speaker 2

But to see that this really happens and where has our country gone as we talk about constitutional rights, that I also teach terrorism and there's not a definitive definition of terrorism. There's characteristics that make a terrorist. You push and change from ideological, whether it's to overturn a government, but to use the threat of violence or actually conduct violent acts to make your point. So that insurrection that might it could be labeled a lot of things and domestic terrorism. It was so I was I was said I was shocked, but I realized that in everything I take it as a as a lesson to learn.

[00:24:13.180] - Speaker 2

And so that's what I gave to my students. But I was called to speak on it honestly on a whole lot of levels. One, as a security expert from being a Secret Service, I had the honor of serving since Ronald Reagan until the very beginning of Trump's administration. So I know I know security. I know Washington, D.C. So I had to share from that perspective that there is a security posture already in place. Trust me, it's a standing memorandum of how we secure and how various law enforcement come in to render aid and assistance.

[00:24:42.670] - Speaker 2

And that happens every four years within the novel, another event that law enforcement from all over the country come in to participate. But there's a standing security posture. There is a intelligence analysis that is done to allow you to know exactly what you're dealing with. So when we get through circling the wagons to find the culpability, we realize there's a myriad of failures. So I spoke at it. But as the national president of Know, I say this, that the images bear themselves out.

[00:25:08.830] - Speaker 2

We saw the difference of police response in response to the Black Lives Matter movement. There are pockets of violence in every in every demonstration because people, antagonists take opportunity to use that as a backdrop. But for the most part, Black Lives Matter. It was a it was a social movement. It was our call to justice. What other ways to people that are oppressed make their voices known? But to demonstrate peacefully and do that, and they did that and what you saw was a over abundance of law enforcement in response to this, sometimes too aggressive a lot of times.

[00:25:40.350] - Linda Williams

But what we have is straight up chaos. We have disrespect of law enforcement, attack on law enforcement, attack on our representation of democracy and the lack of preparation, the lack of deployment of law enforcement, the images of themselves. And I say boldly, we have to acknowledge that this country is based on social injustice. There is racism. And if you deny it just because you the facts, you do not acknowledge the facts. They do not cease to exist.

[00:26:08.700] - Linda Williams

There is. And you have to understand that it does. And that imagery they are only doing this data is still there was very few that day rest. There was very few countermeasures. There was a lack of preparation. We're talking about the US capital that stands ready with a phone call, a drop of done that the troops and everything else are deployed. So that shows that we have a dual justice system. There was one response from black and brown citizens and there's a different from non black and brown.

[00:26:38.070] - Linda Williams

And I boldly say, if that demonstration, if that insurrection, that mob, that terrorist attack, domestic terrorist attack would have been black and brown citizens, the outcome would have been a bloodbath. And then we've been told tales of individuals land on the front lawn and that's what it is.

[00:26:52.920] - Steve Morreale

Well, there you go.  You can smile for that. That's. No, no. I think it is bold and I think it's dead on. I can't disagree with you at all. I think that's a very terrific statement from your point of view. Very, very good. I mean, we started one of the things I want to talk about, issues of race in America. But, you began to talk about it. And I think it shows itself in some ways in our urban centers, which is a shame, I think.

[00:27:15.150] - Steve Morreale

And yet I'll ask you this from your perspective, what's your sense of the greater number of police and the reforms that are coming? How do we explain? OK, Linda, let's go direct. You're in a classroom, you're in a classroom, and you and I are in a classroom. And we're trying to we're trying to impact young people. But with students, we say, OK, there's the SHERVIN case and look what happened. And look, there was justice.

[00:27:39.900] - Steve Morreale

And then three days later, there's something else. What's that? And then two days later, it's something else, and a week later it's something else. And so it makes it very, very hard for us to catch us as an industry or as a discipline to kind of catch our footing because something else is happening. And I think it's going to continue to happen because police are looking as a Secret Service agent, you put hands on it doesn't look pretty.  It doesn't look pretty. The person resists. You've got to use force. Sometimes four or five people get them out and everything else, right? Absolutely.

[00:28:09.060] - Linda Williams

Absolutely.

[00:28:09.810] - Steve Morreale

And so my question is, what's your sense of the greater number of police? Are they doing their job?

[00:28:15.870] - Linda Williams

Oh, absolutely. Most men and women that put their lives on the line every day, good people, a very good people. If I tell my students you have to be passionate about law enforcement, not one of those professions that you come in to get rich, you have to care. And even as I ask them why they want to go to law enforcement, they want to make a difference and be the change that they wish to see. And that little corner that your son, you'd be the difference in that corner.

[00:28:39.840] - Linda Williams

So if we talk about numbers, yes, there are more good than bad. There's more than some bad apples, some bad orchards. And so we got to look at the whole thing and even to cover that department. First of all, we have to have national standards as far as the use of force. It is not left at the discretion of every chief executive in his or her department. Everybody is held accountable. Everybody teaches the use of force model.

[00:29:02.970] - Linda Williams

I was taught you cannot equal a step above. And you're exactly right because somebody does not comply. Welcome to law enforcement. You're not dealing with Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America. People run for a myriad of reason. I don't condone it. But you're in law enforcement. You've got to realize that you don't have people that always appear to go with you. So you, like, put your hands on people. And I tell my students, you don't go from stop, stop.

[00:29:27.660] - Linda Williams

I say stop to bang, bang, you're dead. And that's what we are seeing over and over. What is it? We don't say that that we got we realize what we're dealing with. So but even still, we cannot dehumanize. And when we take someone into custody, they are still a human being. You have achieved what you're trying to do. You have them in custody. And now there's a process. There's a process. If there's medical services that are needed, you have to respond to that.

[00:29:49.740] - Linda Williams

And even when you take them in to get them booked and everything, you've done your job, that's when they go into the system. You don't play judge and jury and executor on the streets. And until we have that accountability, we promote the law and police that we have to look at. We have to make these absolutes, because if we don't, you get that gray area and that discretion. And here we go. Then I fear for my life.

[00:30:12.360] - Linda Williams

When you took it from that, I was trained as a deputy sheriff and as a federal agent. You don't pull your side unless you willing to take that life out. Just a life and death matter. I'm asking much to say, well, why don't you shoot them in the leg? And I say, y'all seen too much Hollywood or shoot them in the most agencies that I. I know of none that do warning shots and I say, do you know how accurate you have to be to hit a moving target that's running and hit them in the foot?

[00:30:39.210] - Linda Williams

So they teach you to shoot center mass because that's the biggest portion of your body. And we realize that sometimes you can be a little off with it if it's moving, right?

[00:30:47.880] - Steve Morreale

Yes, we do.

[00:30:49.260] - Speaker 3

If you're going to pull your firearm, you're saying I will take your life. And we need to hold people accountable just because, yes, law enforcement is the sole entity that has been given the authority of life and death to execute the uses. But we need to make sure that we hold people accountable. And that's what this country this is what society? Law enforcement. You do it. Thank you. Thank you. But you're not above the law.

[00:31:12.450] - Linda Williams

You know, doctors and everybody else have accountability to do male malpractice suits and all of these things you cannot hide because you are a police officer and do corrupt and rogue things and think it's OK, because that's what tarnishes our noble profession, that we are not above the citizenry. Even when an officer is accused of wrongdoing, they are entitled to due process. But let it play out, let it be equal with the Chauvin case I use that as a teacher.

[00:31:37.680] - Linda Williams

They play the jury, they play prosecutor, and they play Judge to give the verdict of what they read. And all the students agree that he was culpable and that he should serve time. And they were very pleased about it. But the question I asked and randomly in this class, I have less minority students than I do others. So but it's amazing that not one student in there, the not the systemic racism exists, that there's disparities as law enforcement deals with different people in our society.

[00:32:05.130] - Linda Williams

And for them to acknowledge that. And that's what we have to do, we have to acknowledge don't deny it just because it does not happen to you. One of my first challenges when I became president, when I was talking to them at Bar is the systemic racism does not exist necessary. I challenge you to think differently. Just because one has not experienced it does not negate its existence. You don't get to invalidate my experience. Yes. You don't get marginalized in the challenges that I have come and gone through and continue every day as an African-American woman.

[00:32:34.770] - Linda Williams

So let's acknowledge that there are some differences. But you cannot come to a resolution. You can't find workable solutions until you acknowledge this is a problem. And it is about

[00:32:44.520] - Steve Morreale

I'm very happy to hear that from you. I think it's extremely meaningful and very deep.

[00:32:49.740] - Steve Morreale

I want to ask you a question about standards, national standards. And it seems to me and I know that you know this and you've got members from all over the country and there are standards of training that can be from 14 weeks to 30 weeks.

[00:33:02.730] - Steve Morreale

And I scratch my head and I've said on the show all the time, wait a minute, if somebody has 16 less weeks than somebody in New York or in Massachusetts or in Florida, what the hell are they not getting in that 16 weeks? And why isn't there a standard that would say it has to be these things for this period of time? Somebody at some point in time, Linda, said a college degree is going to be 60 credits no matter where it is in this country for an associates degree and one twenty, not one ten, not one hundred. There is a standard. Why isn't there a standard for training in this country?

[00:33:42.720] - Linda Williams

Because it's been left to the discretion of individual departments, even the very history of policing. It wasn't good. And even as it relates to minorities, we have slave patrols in that mindset that the black and brown system was less than a human being. And even as that mindset just continues to come in, we're still thought of as less than I think only a sick individual can DEA humanize another to do what their children did. But we have to have accountability.

[00:34:11.020] - Linda Williams

You're right. In every profession there is a check and balance. So you know better. You do better. And so let's start now, because I think this is more than a moment. I do know as a movement that change has to come and chaos comes before change. And the way we do policing, the very training, the military, our military, everything about is aggressive, aggressive. And I'm not saying that's not important, but there's other element in communication and how to respond and do things like this.

[00:34:35.930] - Linda Williams

So we ought to have a national standard and then any department have in-service training for those caveats that are very germane to that particular workforce. But you got to have supervision. So when these people go out here for whatever training that is still in place, no, you have to have supervision that you can't let people just be at their own devices to do things. So there has to be accountability, but there should be system standards of use of force that are mandated across the board. Standards that law enforcement on any level have to apply.

[00:35:04.350] - Linda Williams

You have to adhere to because that's why we see this continual and continuous that if we don't change the way we do things, if you continue to do things the same way, you're going to get the same results. But now that we know better, we need to do better. And we, along with so many other law enforcement organizations, are pushing for real reform, pushing for training and just reform. Because you know what everybody's tired of? The citizenry is tired of our country is tired of it.

[00:35:28.980] - Linda Williams

We're looking like a laughing stock, across the globe. But I say when things happen as they do, you can't change it but learn from it and move forward. So this is the moment that we can't get it right. But it takes our legislators. It takes Congress, it takes the White House. And you talk about community policing. That was something that was created by President Obama that is still as relevant today as it was when it was created.

[00:35:52.510] - Linda Williams

Even more so. But not to leave it at a discretion, but make it part of this profession that we have to have accountability. There are certain measures that, if certain, is a certain professional standards that we have to have in law enforcement, even as we go out and put our lives on the line and know that we are to be to in order to be trusted and accepted, we have to be intentional to build that. But we say in NOBLE that culture is policy so you can have departmental policies all day long.

[00:36:19.630] - Linda Williams

But how you enforce that to people that don't understand you don't respect it. You have to respect the person for who they are. You have to communicate to people who they are. You are just like me. You are a law enforcement veteran in the mission, but you've got to know the audience. So when I talk to my students, I'm real. I talk on the level they they understand. I don't know because in a bathrobe, because I want them to look it up and understand that.

[00:36:42.490] - Linda Williams

So you've got to morph with time. You have to morph with time. And this generation and this youthful generation, they are going to be the catalyst for this change because they all they see is what we as parents that we have given them, that they're entitled, that they didn't have to come up the hard side of the mouth and like all of us did, because what we were that generation that we were the recipient of, what our forefathers felt so that we could sit in these positions that Linda Williams, the be professor at MTSU, that Linda Williams, could have achieved all the accomplishments that she did in the Secret Service.

[00:37:15.220] - Linda Williams

But it doesn't stop. Now, we're challenged with this ugly monster again of racism. But this generation, they're going to take that on because they know the world as they are and they very, very inclusive. They look at each other, they support each other. They got purple hair gauges in their ears. But we have to acknowledge that we cannot continue. And these are the incoming generation. These are our future leaders. So we have to help make this transition, take the lessons that we learned because we see now this cannot continue.

[00:37:45.790] - Linda Williams

And how many, even as I'm looking at following the Brown case in North Carolina, how long and how often do we have to look at these horrific things? And they happen all the time to they have not, not occurred. But of course, the cell phones and through body cams we're actually seeing in living color,

[00:38:05.170] - Steve Morreale

It's hard to explain because you thought it's over, but it happens again. And every morning, here's another one. So I do understand.

[00:38:11.950] - Steve Morreale

Well, we've been talking to Linda Williams. She's a professor of practice at Middle Tennessee State University and she has a historied career in the Secret Service, rising to be a deputy assistant director at the United States Secret Service and now is serving out her term as the president for the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, which is terrific. I see something in the back of you and it says, Hope. There is a big sign that says Hope. Now I know the audience can't see it.

[00:38:39.940] - Steve Morreale

Why, of all things, is that hanging there?

[00:38:42.820] - Linda Williams

As a believer in my faith is my cornerstone. I believe all things are possible through God, and I believe we got to have hope. If you don't have a goal, if you don't have an inspiration, what do you have? You just moving. And so one side say hope. The other side says love because love covers a myriad of things. We can look past our differences when you see that people and love them for who they are and what they are.

[00:39:05.440] - Linda Williams

But my hope is that even in a tumultuous time like this, I'm cautiously optimistic that a change is going to come. And before every change, there is chaos. There's rebellion because change is not comfortable, but is inevitable. And we realize that a change has to come. And so that's that reminder every morning as I sit here, that's that hope and hope does not leave us without in despair that we know that collectively, if we keep moving forward, something is going to change.

[00:39:32.770] - Linda Williams

It doesn't happen overnight, but we're going to be better this time next year than we are now. And so it's my hope is my belief is my faith. That's my cornerstone. I am just a faith warrior. And I believe I believe in treating people with respect. I tell people and that's the cornerstone in my classroom, that we can agree to disagree, but we're going to respect each other and we learn from each other so that respect is the same mentality that I tell them you got to go out in this world.

[00:39:58.210] - Linda Williams

Not important to everybody like me, but important that you treat people as you want to be treated. So even when I say things that are controversial, I welcome those discussions. But again, my belief is my belief and I stand on that and I can respect someone else's opinion, but we got to acknowledge the facts. And banks do not cease to exist because you ignore them. We are at a very tumultuous time in our country. And if we don't get it right along the lines, policing, voter registration, how things are being repealed in just the way that we're doing ourselves this.

[00:40:30.120] - Speaker 3

It's going to be a dark, dark and continue to be a dark period in American history, no question.

[00:40:34.890] - Speaker 2

And I think what we what we end up working on is trying to get the next generation ready for the future, and that that's the blessing that we have to be educators. So thank you. Thanks to Linda Williams sitting in just outside of Nashville, Tennessee, today and president of Noble and a professor at Middle Tennessee State University. Thank you for being here, Linda. Appreciate it. And at some point in time, I think I'll have you in my classroom, and I think I would love to be there.

[00:41:01.650] - Linda Williams

Thank you so much for this conversation. We have to use our voices. Yes, you're back. And bones can be broken, but a determined spirit can persevere through all challenges in its forces and unified voices in our thought process to do this as a change will come.

[00:41:17.760] - Steve Morreale

Terrific. Thank you so much for your time. You've been listening to Steve Morreale The CopDoc Podcast. And stay tuned for other episodes in the future. Appreciate you listening.

[00:41:27.210] - Outro

Hi, everybody. A few things before you leave. First, thanks for listening. I'm so gratified to see the downloads rising in the last few months, not only from the U.S. but from across the globe. It's surprising and humbling to find students, colleagues and practitioners listening. We have a growing number of listeners in Canada, Ireland, England, Northern Ireland, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and Colombia.

[00:41:47.610] - Steve Morreale

We appreciate your time and energy and welcome feedback. Please feel free to reach out to me by email at The CopDoc Podcast at Gmail dot com. That's Cop Dog podcast at Gmail dot com. Check out our website at The CopDoc Podcast dot com. Please take the time to share a podcast with your friend if you find value in the discussions. We've had so many amazing guests and more to come who have shared their wisdom, their thoughts, their viewpoints and their innovative ideas.

[00:42:14.910] - Steve Morreale

Most importantly, a huge thank you to those of you who show up for work in policing every day, not knowing the kinds of calls that you'll be sent on or the kinds of situations you'll find yourself in, you risk your lives for people, many of whom you don't know. And for that, we owe you a debt of gratitude. A big thanks. Hope you stay safe, healthy and look forward to hearing from you and hope you'll continue to listen to upcoming episodes of The CopDoc Podcast. Thanks very much.

[00:42:42.420] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune in to The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.