The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership

The CopDoc Podcast Bruce O'Brien, Assistant Commissioner, New Zealand Police, Session 1, Ep 41

September 27, 2021 Assistant Commissioner Bruce O'Brien Season 2 Episode 41
The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
The CopDoc Podcast Bruce O'Brien, Assistant Commissioner, New Zealand Police, Session 1, Ep 41
Show Notes Transcript

Bruce O'Brien is an Assistant Commissioner with the New Zealand Police.  He is now responsible for the National Intelligence, Evidence-based Policing, and Roads Policing. 

A 20+ year veteran with the NZP, Bruce is pursuing a doctorate through the Canterbury Christ Church University.  

We spoke about policing, the issues in policing in New Zealand and across the Globe, innovation, Covid, racism, and leadership.

Bruce can be reached by email at [email protected]  

[00:00:02.300] - Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc share thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.


[00:00:43.970] - Steve Morreale

Well, Hello, everybody. Again, another episode of The CopDoc Podcast. I'm Steve Morreale, talking to you in Boston, and I have an absolute pleasure to be talking to somebody down under. Today we have Bruce O'Brien, who is an Assistant Commissioner for the New Zealand Police, their national police. And you are talking to us at a completely different time zone, it's 5 pm in Boston. What time is it, Bruce?


[00:01:04.180] - Bruce O'Brien

So 09:00 a.m. In Auckland the day ahead of you. So I'm actually in the future, Steve.


[00:01:10.260] - Steve Morreale

Well, this should be a great conversation because you could tell me what the hell is going to app, right?


[00:01:14.230] - Bruce O'Brien

Yep. That sounds good. Thanks for having me on.


[00:01:16.210] - Steve Morreale

Thank you very much. So I want to tell the audience how this came to pass. I think LinkedIn is an amazing, amazing opportunity to bridge the world. And one of the things that I saw with Bruce was that he was talking in very positive ways about content that he was involved in regarding evidence-based policing in New Zealand reached out to him. We were able to talk last week, and it became quite evident that while we in America think that we're way ahead of everything, I think there was a situation where you told me there was evidence-based policing unit that you ran and we are nowhere near that in most agencies.


[00:01:50.710] - Steve Morreale

So let's start by understanding how long you've been in policing and what you're doing now, what your portfolio is and we'll go from there.


[00:01:57.640] - Bruce O'Brien

So I'm in May 22 years of policing. So I joined the police when I was pretty young. I was only 19 when I joined the New Zealand Police, which is our national police service. So we've only got one police service in New Zealand. I've done a majority of my career has been in the operational space. So worked up from a Constable. I was a Sergeant looking after constables and moved into sort of middle management, running small stations and then an area commander. So I looked after an area north of Aukland and all the policing functions and emergency management that come with a sort of managing a large area.


[00:02:28.530] - Bruce O'Brien

And then in 2019, promoted to Superintendent into the inaugural director of evidence-based policing for New Zealand police was a service center that New Zealand police had stood up. And I was promoted as the first director, which was very, very grateful for. And I was in that role for about 18 months. And then, obviously, the world was hit by the global pandemic, as covert 19 as we all know. And I started relieving at that point as an assistant Commissioner. And I was primarily responsible for the evidence-based policing center, the National Intelligence Center.


[00:02:59.350] - Bruce O'Brien

And then I was fortunate enough in January of this year to be promoted to a full-time position as the Assistant Commissioner for deployment and road policing. So my portfolio spends quite wide. So I'm responsible for our National Road Policing Center, which sets all our policy standards and practice around how we deliver road policing services across the country. Also responsible for the National Intelligence Center. So our intel function across New Zealand police and working with our partners in the intelligence community also remain responsible for the evidence-based policing center, which is great because that's one of my passions is research in policing.


[00:03:34.620] - Bruce O'Brien

And finally, I'm also responsible for the deployment, which incorporates our National Critical Command Center based in Wellington, New Zealand, and our tasking and coordination process, which is fundamentally how we deploy our resources and assets across the country to reduce harm. So, yeah, quite a big portfolio. That really exciting, really is.


[00:03:51.790] - Steve Morreale

And when we talked the other day, I became very clear that curious to know so that you can contain the picture of the size of the organization. But in your position, as an Assistant Commissioner. there is clearly a Commissioner. There's a deputy, more than one deputy. 


[00:04:04.510] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah, so we've got more than one deputy in New Zealand police. So our Commissioner is Andrew Costa. So Commissioner Costa commits in April 2020. And then there's a deputy Commissioner responsible for our operations, which is all our sort of tactical area, plus the twelve districts of New Zealand police. We have a deputy Commissioner for leadership and capability, a Deputy Commissioner for sort of the strategic part of the business. And we've also got DEA deputy Commissioner for our Ewing community that fundamentally ensures that we maintain our commitment to the Treaty of Waitangi and our Indigenous population, which is our multi-community and also all the prevention activities that sit within under that deputy Commissioner as well.


[00:04:45.690] - Bruce O'Brien

Also, at that level, there's a number of what we call deputy chief executives so that non sworn leaders that hold similar positions as the deputy commissioners, the same type of responsibility. But they just not sworm police officers. And then at my level, there's a range of Constabulary assistant commissioners as I am. And then we have a group of leaders is called executive directors that hold similar portfolios at the same level. Yeah. That's our organization.


[00:05:10.770] - Steve Morreale

So you're in the top tier of this organization, obviously. And how many sworn officers are there are constables and others?


[00:05:18.060] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. So the total size of our organization is about 14 and a half thousand people. And out of that, 14 and a half thousand, we have about just over 10,000 that are sworn Constabulary members.


[00:05:29.020] - Steve Morreale

Yeah. so you've got 14 and a half thousand people with 10,000 sworn. Tell us about the training for sworn officers.


[00:05:36.300] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. So sworn officers. So you can join the New Zealand police from age 18. And we've got one national training College, which is based in Pair, which is just north of Wellington. So the program runs about 16 weeks where you're introduced to legislation, policy, practice, some driver training to get some firearms training and personal protection training and defensive tactics. Then you a place as a probationary Constable in one of the twelve districts across New Zealand, usually close to your hometown, and you're on a probationary period for approximately two years, where there are some workplace assessments that you've got to complete your partner with a field training officer most of the time.


[00:06:15.240] - Bruce O'Brien

And at the completion of that two years, then you finally signed off as a Constable.


[00:06:20.550] - Steve Morreale

That's a long time. That's not what happens with us, as you probably will know, it is that you go to the Academy for anywhere from twelve weeks to six months, and then you are paid with a field train officer in the same way. And that's usually between eight and twelve weeks. And so within a year, maybe a year and a half you're off probation. And I found the same thing when I spent some time in Ireland, which is similar to what goes on in the UK. That's a very long time.


[00:06:44.880] - Steve Morreale

But do the trainees when they're back out in the field, they go back to the Academy for a little while to apply some of their learning?


[00:06:52.180] - Bruce O'Brien

No, not necessarily. So all your learning is really done out in the field. So we've got workplace cases that are out in each of the districts doing sure that the probationary constables are maintaining the workplace assessments. And those workplace assessments sort of span a range of different topics focused around procedures, the legislation that you have to use and apply, and they sort of have some time frames that they have to work to achieve those. And then they are signed off by those workplace assessments. But you don't sort of go back to the College until you start doing our senior courses.


[00:07:21.490] - Bruce O'Brien

So we run all our senior courses. When you want to become a Detective, you have to spend some time at the Royal New Zealand Police College. If you wanted to become an additional protection officer, for instance, we have to go back to the police College, same with our tactical teams. They do. They're qualifying and selecting courses at the Royal New Zealand Police College as well. So it's sort of our national hub for training. And it's been established since 981. And so a great place of learning there's got our police library, there some really good learning spaces, and it's a really great facility.


[00:07:50.400] - Steve Morreale

So you said something about personal protection. Tell me what that means. And so we understand that.


[00:07:54.990] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. So that would be similar equivalent to probably your Secret Service.


[00:07:59.190] - Steve Morreale

I got you, dignitary protection.


[00:08:00.910] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. Diplomatic protection. So we call it the diplomatic protection squad, who looks after our Prime Minister. And when we have VIPs and dignitaries from overseas as well. They work with those international counterparts to provide protection and safety to those people when they're visiting New Zealand.


[00:08:16.750] - Steve Morreale

So we're in the midst of Covid, and it really has escaped, until recently, New Zealand. But now all of a sudden, you're seeing a rise in cases. Talk about that.


[00:08:29.940] - Bruce O'Brien

New Zealand has taken an elimination strategy, and we've been very fortunate over the last 18 months since Covid sort of first emerged. We did an initial national lockdown back in March, April last year, and that was very successful. And we've had the odd regional lockdown since. But unfortunately, we've seen the emergence of the Delta variance in New Zealand in the last six weeks, and where I am in Auckland, remain in level four, which was quite restricted from the sense that fundamentally, you've got to remain at home unless there's a central reason for travel, or you need to go to the grocery store or supermarket.


[00:09:11.400] - Bruce O'Brien

The rest of the country, as of this morning, has moved to alert level three, so still some significant restrictions, but they're allowed to get click and click takeaways, et cetera. So we're really hoping that we will see the case numbers drop over the next few weeks and we can sort of move back to some not form of normality. There's a big vaccination program going on across the country at the moment. It's really encouraging to see large amounts of our population choosing to take the vaccine. And I think for us in New Zealand, the new wave, it's going to be our way out of this pandemics is high vaccination numbers and same with our close neighbors. Australia and they've seen similar sort of issues at the moment as well.


[00:09:59.220] - Steve Morreale

Is air travel diminished virtually?


[00:10:02.460] - Bruce O'Brien

Yes, you can leave New Zealand so you can jump on a plane and leave. But if you decide to come back, you've got to get a spot and managed isolation facilities, quarantine facilities and that hotel-based, as you can appreciate these only limited spaces. So unless you really need to travel on the advice to remain at home, I was fortunate enough earlier this year we had a travel bubble with Australia, which was quarantine-free travel. So in May, I was fortunate enough to go across to Australia to see some family and friends.


[00:10:27.900] - Bruce O'Brien

But unfortunately, with the delta outbreak that's been caused at this time.


[00:10:32.170] - Steve Morreale

Are you masking also in public?


[00:10:34.420] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. So when you're in essential facilities such as supermarkets or pharmacies, it's mandated that you have to wear a mask. It's highly recommended when you're out in public that you wear a mask. But we're not mandated to wear masks in public, but definitely on public transport. And when you're flying domestic Airlines and you have to wear a mask. And obviously when you're in places where there are lots of people, such as supermarkets, and you have to wear a mask as well.


[00:10:55.390] - Steve Morreale

We're talking to Bruce O'Brien, who is an Assistant Commissioner at the New Zealand National police New Zealand Police. And I thank you. And I'm sorry we've delved into Covid, but it is fascinating that it is impacted that's all over the world. And that's why I asked those questions that are not normal one. Bruce, why are you in policing? Why do you stand in policing? What do you like about it?


[00:11:14.100] - Bruce O'Brien

Well, I think from my perspective, I always wanted to join the police from a very as early as I can remember, and I wanted to join the police. And I had a cousin in the police when I was in my teens, and I really used to look up to what he used to do. And I was also one of my next-door neighbors was a police officer in my local hometown. So when I was about 15, suggested that I went on a ride-along one night with her, and I sort of hooked at that point.


[00:11:37.000] - Bruce O'Brien

Absolutely loved it. I think we all joined because we want to make a difference and that was no different to me. I suppose I always like supporting the underdogs and making sure that they looked after why I've remained in policing. I still really, really enjoy what the police stand for and that's keeping community safe that we all residing. And I've got three children, and I want him to live in a safe community in a safe country as well. So that's one of my drivers. I also think policing is extremely fascinating and it's very complex at times.


[00:12:06.880] - Bruce O'Brien

But then at other times, it's very straightforward and some of the complexities take them really good problem-solving skills to work through. And that's why I sort of really enjoy the research aspect of policing as well, because I think research and academia has got so much to assist police and help us with our goals about keeping the community safe. And so that's really what keeps me in just that real interest, the environment, but also have the opportunity to keep our community safe.


[00:12:33.070] - Steve Morreale

So you're in a great place. You're in a position of I don't mean authority, but of opportunity, to be able to steer the ship on so many different levels, intelligence and evidence-based policing and roads policing. But I also understand that you're going back, you crazy fool, for a doctorate. So talk about that. Why?


[00:12:52.410] - Bruce O'Brien

Well, my story coming into both the research part of policing sort of started about 2015, and I was an area prevention manager at the rank of Inspector in a policing area of Auckland, and I was becoming increasingly frustrated about strategies around Burglary. It felt like we were doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So a long story. But I reached out to Professor Larry Sherman.


[00:13:17.410] - Steve Morreale

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cambridge.


[00:13:19.210] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah. And had put out a few studies around burglary and hotspot policing. Obviously, the Minneapolis Hotspot policing experiment being the most sort of well-known. But so I reached you out to him by email. I'm not expecting a reply, but Larry come back to me within about 24 hours and sort of pointed me towards some other areas of research that I could look at, but also asked me if I'd be interested in considering the Applied Criminology program at the University of Cambridge in the UK and fast forward a couple of years, I found myself traveling to the UK on a regular basis to undertake this part-time master's program and Applied Criminology really opened me up to this new world of police research and working with academics to solve these problems that policing grapples with on a regular basis, completed that master's degree, which was absolutely an awesome opportunity, met so many great police officers from not only the UK, but we had people from Canada, Scandinavia, Australia on that program and sort of really exposed me to some of the challenges that they were facing were not that different to what we were facing in New Zealand as well. So it was a great opportunity. So I completed that. That stood me in good stead for when we opened the evidence-based Police and center in New Zealand that I at least had an understanding of, I suppose, the concept at the research and some of the opportunities that we had with the amount of data that police sits on how we can actually use that suppose, support and informed decision making.


[00:14:37.450] - Bruce O'Brien

But one of the topics that I'd always been really interested in as child homicide. Unfortunately, New Zealand doesn't have the greatest statistics around child homicide. We have quite a high rate of it in New Zealand. So I decided that I actually wanted to understand what was driving, especially from the offenders perspective. We have little literature in New Zealand. There is some, but most of the literature we rely on is in the international sort of space. So I decided that I'd go back into a part-time PhD and I was fortunate enough to be accepted into Canterbury University in the UK, which Professor Steve Tong is part of the Police Research Center there.


[00:15:13.300] - Bruce O'Brien

So I commenced the part-time and about twelve months ago now. So I've just about finished my literature review. It's back to  my supervisor for a


[00:15:20.160] - Steve Morreale

You're getting there, right?


[00:15:21.270] - Bruce O'Brien

Yeah, a critique. So yeah, that's where I'm at some days like anybody that's undertaking that PhD, you sort of wonder what you're doing to yourself, trying to balance work, life and family and everything. But I really enjoy the experience. And I find every time I sort of open my laptop up to do a little bit more work on it, I learn something new. Sort of how I ended up in that space.


[00:15:39.090] - Steve Morreale

I find it fascinating.


[00:15:40.630] - Steve Morreale

And I just talked to Bill Bratton. One of the things that he was saying was that in order for him to survive and to advance, you have to be a lifelong learner. And it certainly sounds like you're already willing and able participant in lifelong learning. So when we talk about research, police research, who should drive that research? Should it come from academia or scholars? Or should it be done in concert with problems that police identify and try to dig into it to see what we can do and how we better address any issues that we identified?


[00:16:09.700] - Speaker 1

What do you think?


[00:16:10.450] - Bruce O'Brien

So, from my perspective, I think the way to move this forward is it needs to be a combination of police and academics, and I think you have to be able to have one, I think build those relationships with academics and vice versa so that you build that trust up, probably understanding both perspectives. So we know from an academic point of view, your methods have to be rigorous and robust and research, as we know, can take time and a lot of effort. And sometimes you may not get the answer at the end of it, and it can take three or four years, and you still might not have the answer.


[00:16:40.240] - Bruce O'Brien

Whereas policing, as we know, is very agile, sometimes that long-term research is fantastic. But a lot of the time we have to get the best available evidence in a short amount of time to make some decisions, though. I think that relationship is key not only at a personal level but with academic institutes, that they work with their local police services or even further a fair so that you both understand where you're coming from. But I definitely think it's the way forward to trying to understand those complex problems that research data is the best opportunity of seeing positive change.


[00:17:10.990] - Bruce O'Brien

And ultimately, what we're all after is reducing harm in our communities.


[00:17:14.080] - Steve Morreale

So as we wind down for this segment, there's a couple of things that are knawing at me, and it is always interesting to me and fascinating about how people in other parts of the world you what's going on here in the United States. So I'll ask you a couple of things. George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, lease reform, the attack on the capital, all of the things that you're watching. I don't think you're blind to them because the world is small. What's your view as a colleague police officer about what's going on and does it impact down under?


[00:17:43.890] - Bruce O'Brien

So I'd start by saying, I think everybody was absolutely horrified by the murder of George Floyd. As you say, it made international headlines, and we saw usually every capital city in the world protesting and those issues around police reform sort of come to the forefront at the time. I was actually speaking to colleagues and different parts of the world about the COVID response. And I remember speaking to some people outside of the US that, no, this is a US policing issue. I disagree with that. I think police reform community expecting, I suppose, more transparency from the police, a different style of police.


[00:18:16.020] - Bruce O'Brien

And it all comes back to that police legitimacy issue. I think we have younger people that expect different things from their police service from, say, 20-30 years ago. So I don't think it's just a specific US issue. I think this is a global policing issue for everybody to better understand what sets in behind some of that negative sentiment. What we can do is police services to suppose, continue to build the trust and confidence from our community so that we do have that legitimacy to operate. And we talk about it in New Zealand.


[00:18:45.430] - Bruce O'Brien

And I know in the UK, policing by consent is part of our foundation, and we've sort of just going through a bit of a refresh about policing by consent, what that means for us here in New Zealand, but yeah, I don't think it's just necessarily a US issues, Steve. I think it's a global issue at the moment, and it's confronting us all.


[00:19:01.080] - Steve Morreale

That's not great to hear, but it is refreshing to hear because we think we're under fire. But I think we're off anybody who has the power over others. And what you just said is policing is all of our relationships. If you can't relate to the people you're policing, that legitimacy, that's an issue. That's a real problem. The race issue that we see in this country. You talked about the Indigenous in New Zealand. Is it similar?


[00:19:22.810] - Bruce O'Brien

So we have, unfortunately, we have disproportionate rates of our Indigenous population in our prison system. We acknowledge that and we're trying to work with our communities to understand what's driving that. And we've just convinced a large piece of research in New Zealand called Understand Anding Policing Delivery, so that's going to be delivered independently from police. And we're supporting the research with our data and access to our people for some of the qualitative research that will need to be untaken. But we're sort of looking at three key areas in New Zealand.


[00:19:51.730] - Bruce O'Brien

One is who and how we stop people and what drives those decision-making processes, use of force decisions about who and how we use force and in charging decisions, because we've taken an approach in New Zealand, probably in the last of the five to eight or nine years around trying to utilize restorative justice to keep low level criminal offending out of the criminal justice system. So there's three sort of key areas that we want to specifically look at and understand if bias may exist in those three areas against cell Indigenous population and understand what we can actually do to change that in a policy practice, in training perspective to try and mitigate bias where it may exist.


[00:20:27.940] - Bruce O'Brien

So it's going to be a really interesting piece of work. I don't think we're going to get all the answers that we were after and then first sort of 12 or so months. I think this is going to be a long two and piece of research with some preliminary results coming out over time. So I think will definitely help inform us. But I think it will be a lot of interest to other jurisdictions around the world as well.


[00:20:46.030] - Steve Morreale

So as I wrap up this segment, I want to end with a question that has to do with leadership. And clearly you are in the top tier of the New Zealand police. And so that means within the last couple of years, you have been front and center in command staff meetings, driving questions and considering the issues and then parsing out and prioritize what the New Zealand Police has to do to become better. So talk about those meetings as you walked in. I mean, I can imagine that you're an Inspector and you have regional meetings, and now you're in the national, how have you had to kind of screw your head on just a little bit differently to be able to participate in these high-level conversations.


[00:21:26.640] - Bruce O'Brien

Well, I think when you definitely make that, I suppose, transition from operational leadership into the strategic space, there are other things that you've got to consider. So there's the political aspects, obviously, and how you manage that this resource in control traits that sometimes people don't necessarily see when they're sitting in their operational space and how you can best you to make use of your resources and assets to have the greatest impact. So I've been quite fortunate in the sense that from suppose and evidence-based policing perspective, I've found our organization to be quite mature about adopting a new way of supporting decision making.


[00:22:00.300] - Bruce O'Brien

So our organization and when we stood up the evidence-based policing center as an example in 2019, unfortunately, a very short time later, in March, we had the Christ Church terror attacks, and the evidence-based policing centerm at that stage was in its infancy. I only probably only had 60% of the staff because I was still going through a recruiting process. But in a very short time, we tuned around some evidence briefs, which used the best available evidence to inform the police executive at that time on some key decisions that they had to make.


[00:22:29.950] - Bruce O'Brien

And it sort of provided that credibility instantly about actually, there's something using evidence literature and translating that into Operation Al delivery. There's something in that that we can actually use that supports our experience. So I've been really clear about this is not about replacing people's experience that complements it. So I suppose to the approach that I've taken when I've been working with my colleagues in that strategic level. But as I say, I've been very fortunate that our organization has been very quick to adopt this way of work.


[00:22:59.280] - Steve Morreale

That's great to hear because when you told me that you had stood up a unit evidence-based police, it seemed to me that that's very rare, very rarely done here in the United States, although it's catching up, Cynthia Lum and the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing, and certainly, Larry Sherman, please, are all in all of that do you find, who do you look for some guidance about how to stand this up, or do you feel like you are the earlier adopter?


[00:23:24.420] - Bruce O'Brien

So I think from my perspective, we were extremely fortunate that our previous police Commissioner, Mike Bush, and my current supervisor, Deputy Chief Executive Mark, evens had a vision about evidence-based policing, how it could really take our organization to the next level about truly being prevention first focused but using research and insights to make the right decisions about what actually works and test some of our practices. So we were fortunate in that back in about 2017, when they decided that this was going to happen and I had to resource it repurpose different resources and obviously fund it.


[00:24:03.370] - Bruce O'Brien

So they really took, I think, a very bold and brave decision on that. And I think and it's showing the benefits of using research insights to help decision making. We're also fortunate that our current executive. So as I mentioned earlier, we've got a new Police Commissioner and Costa last year. And Commissioner Cost is a big supporter of evidence as well and decision making. So I've been very well supported who I look to internationally. So obviously, Larry has been a big supporter of what we're doing down here in New Zealand.


[00:24:39.110] - Bruce O'Brien

We have regular contact with Larry and the team at Cambridge, but other academics and different parts of the world as well. Professor Lorraine Meserole at the University of Queensland, there's another big supporter of what we're doing here. And we work quite closely with Lorraine and her team at the University of Queensland on different projects. So I think internationally, as you say, it's starting to grow. Renee, in the US, is a big driver. Yeah. Yeah. She's a big driver. We speak to Renee on occasion about what's going on in the state.


[00:25:12.550] - Bruce O'Brien

So there's a real international community, and that's what I really like about it. People are sharing ideas, and I know we en COVID first keen. We sort of quickly set up a bit of an international society of evidence- based police. And in there was an online suppose conference calls and key people from around the world are talking about family harm and the impact that Covid was having on family violence and family harm. So it just showed that everybody was sort of facing the same challenges and as a collective work together was to find some of those of immediate solutions.


[00:25:39.450] - Steve Morreale

So we're talking to Bruce O'Brien, the New Zealand Police Department. He's an Assistant Commissioner, and we're going to wind this session down. We're going to spend some time with him in the future, talk in more detail about the intelligence center and obviously the evidence-based policing center that he has stood up. So I want to thank you very much, Bruce, for your time. You have the last word. How would you want our listeners to remember what's going on down under?


[00:26:01.920] - Bruce O'Brien

Well, thanks, for a start, thanks for having me on the podcast. Surprise. What I'd say is we like everybody else at the moment. We're very fortunate that we've got an evidence-based policing center. We've had that investment, but we're also trying to understand some of those big challenges for policing. And I think for me, the biggest one at the moment globally is police legitimacy. So what I'd say is anybody that wants to reach out to us and work with us on finding some of those solutions to how we can continually build one the evidence-based on legitimacy, but obviously improve those relationships with the community.


[00:26:32.320] - Bruce O'Brien

I'd be more than happy to hear from anybody and work with you and support our learnings on that topic today than any other issues that you might be facing.


[00:26:39.970] - Steve Morreale

So how do they get in touch with you.

Probably the best thing. I don't know if you're able to put my email address up on your show


[00:26:45.790] - Steve Morreale

I can, I will.


[00:26:47.130] - Bruce O'Brien

But I'm on LinkedIn or probably LinkedIn or my email address that you can put up.


[00:26:51.850] - Steve Morreale

I'll put it in the show note.


[00:26:53.530] - Steve Morreale

So thank you, everybody, for listening. This is another episode finished. Steve Morreale from Boston talking to Bruce O'Brian, an Assistant Commissioner at the New Zealand Police. We appreciate you listening. Stay tuned for more episodes.


[00:27:05.050] - Steve Morreale

Hi everybody, a few things before you leave first. Thanks for listening. Gratified to see the downloads rising in the last few months, not only from the US but across the globe. It's surprising and humbling to find students, colleagues and practitioners listening. We have a growing number of listeners in Canada, Ireland, England, Northern Ireland, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and Colombia.


[00:27:25.410] - Steve Morreale

We appreciate your time and energy and welcome feedback. Please feel free to reach out to me by email at CopDoc.Podcast @gmail com. That's [email protected] Check out our website site at Please take the time to share podcast with your friend if you find value in the discussions. We've had so many amazing guests and more to come who have shared their wisdom, their thoughts, their viewpoints, and their innovative ideas. Most importantly, a huge thank you to those of you who show up for work in Police sync every day, not knowing the kinds of calls that you'll be sent on or the kinds of situations you'll find yourself in.  You risk your lives for people many of whom you don't know, and for that we owe you a debt of gratitude. A big thanks. Hope you stay safe, healthy, and look forward to hearing from you and hope you'll continue to listen to upcoming episodes of The CopDoc Podcast.


[00:28:18.970] - Outro

Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.