The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Visit our website: https://www.copdocpodcast.com
The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
From Law Enforcement to Criminal Justice Education: Dr. Mike Birzer's Story
Season 6 - Episode 114 -The CopDoc Podcast
Ever wondered about the bridge between law enforcement and academia? Today, we take you on a journey with Dr. Mike Birzer, a former sheriff's lieutenant who left and rose to become an esteemed academic at Wichita State University. We talk about his unique career path, shedding light on his teaching in Criminal Justice and the influence of his law enforcement background on his approach to research and teaching.
We explore some of the most pressing issues in contemporary policing with Dr. Berzer. We tackle the often overlooked viewpoint of criminals, shedding light on the rich insights this perspective can offer. Highlighting the importance of situational analysis and discretion, we delve into Birzer's work with Paul Cromwell on a book offering criminal perspectives and a current project focusing on differential police response to low-risk, low-harm calls.
As we finish our conversation, we delve into the sensitive issue of police reform and community trust, guided by the wisdom of Dr. Birzer. Reflecting on the journey of police reformer, OW Wilson, we contemplate his significant steps to improve the police department and examine how this historical narrative can inform modern practices.
The chat focuses light on the reception of law enforcement in academic settings and acknowledges the challenges faced by students in criminal justice departments. We underscore the crucial role of reflective learning and continuing education in shaping future police academies and the burgeoning potential of collaboration between academic institutions and practitioners. Join us, as we uncover the intricate dance between academia and practitioners to chart a promising path for policing.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopD oc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopD oc Podcast.
Steve Morreale:Well, hello everybody. This is Steve Morreale, coming from Boston. You are listening to The CopD oc Podcast. We have another episode starting and I'm talking to a colleague out in Kansas City. He is from Wichita, Kansas, but he's in Kansas City today, dr Mike Birzer from Wichita State University. Hello there, michael. Hello, thank you for having me. Thanks so much. First of all, I've been watching you from afar for a long time. We've talked once on the phone. I loved your work about androgogy to use it in police training, never mind in our own classrooms And so I know you are an avid writer, are certainly an author, you're a professor you're a former law enforcement officer.
Steve Morreale:Talk about how you ended up coming out of policing and into academia.
Mike Birzer:You know, Dr. Morreale, that was not planned. When I entered policing, of course, at a young age, I thought that was it. That's all I wanted to do. Actually, that's all I wanted to do since I was about 16 years old and joined a sheriff's cadet program in Wichita, and the rest is history. So, of course, I was a non-traditional college student. I didn't think initially I needed to go to college. I just wanted to be a cop and that was it. And so I got into policing and then suddenly realized, you know, maybe I need to go to college, and so I worked my way through my undergraduate degree And then a master's really wasn't even on the table.
Mike Birzer:And then I thought you know, maybe a master's degree might not hurt. And so I went back and got my master's degree. And that's when it really it really hit me that I liked research, i like this stuff, i like learning about theory and research and methodology, and so it was a question when I earned the master's degree what do I do now? And in Wichita at the time keep in mind distance education, online education just wasn't there. Yes, and you know I was faced with the dilemma where do I go get a doctorate? from Wichita, kansas, wichita State had minimal doctorates at that time that they were offering, and I started looking around and found a program at Oklahoma State And it was in the educational studies area And it was adult, continuing occupational education. And so I applied for the program and went down for an interview At that time they were interviewing all the candidates and met with chair of the program at that time And he said well, you know, he said you're becoming in kind of a non traditional if you're going to work through work.
Mike Birzer:And that's what I needed to do.
Mike Birzer:I was in my career And they accepted me in the program And he said you know, we'll consider you in residence as long as you get down here for classes.
Mike Birzer:So I was convinced four-and-a-half on about a year journey back and forth from Wichita to Stillw ater, Oklahoma, which is a 140-mile round trip several times a week, and at the time I had a captain that was just a great guy. He allowed me to flex, do some flex hours And that's how I kind of ended up in academia and then hit 18 years in policing And I was about ready to finish my doctorate, defend my dissertation, and the opportunity came up in Ada, Oklahoma, the university called East Central University And it's just a small school. I had an opportunity to go teach there And so I had a real big decision to make. You know, do I leave policing and go hit an inner end to academia at this point where I stick out policing a few more years? this chance would have it. I ended up retiring early from policing and then moving to eight Oklahoma for my first year as an academic.
Steve Morreale:So let me ask you this then how far away was Ada from where you are in Wichita?
Mike Birzer:It's about a three and a half hour drive.
Steve Morreale:Okay, so it's not close.
Mike Birzer:Southeast Oklahoma.
Steve Morreale:I got you, so I you know I use the term a lot And I'm sure you've heard it a whole bunch of you. Don't use it yourself. You're a pro academic, you're a practical guy, somebody who did the job and certainly for an off long time, rose up to be a lieutenant, went back to school as a non-traditional student And, as I was, i think that you're different in the classroom, as professors now understand. When you have police officers in your classroom, it's almost like you have a graduate assistant or a teacher's aide. And again, i think I can see some similarities that I never saw myself as somebody who had the capacity to earn a doctorate. And yet here we are and giving back to students. So you are writing, you are teaching. Talk about Wichita State and that criminal justice department. How big is it? What are the courses you're teaching?
Mike Birzer:So Wichita State University actually we kind of pride ourselves on having one of the I wouldn't say the oldest, but one of the older programs in the country actually was started back in the 1930s by a renowned chief, ow Wilson, when he was chief.
Steve Morreale:I've never heard of him. Yeah, i'm kidding, yeah.
Mike Birzer:Imagine that. Yeah, So it initially Wilson started it. He had this wonderful relationship when he arrived in Wichita He really worked closely with Wichita State at the time And so it started as a police science program Wilson's command staff talks about the police forces at the university And gradually over the course of the years it evolved into a full service criminal justice degree where students can study, be seeing corrections for judicial, et cetera, et cetera. We have right now in our graduate program approximately 25 active graduate students And then our undergraduates, a couple of hundred. And then we have a forensic science program as well which has really taken off and done very well, And there's probably 40 or 50 majors there. And then we have a homeland security program which is doing very well with another probably 50, 60 students studying homeland security, And that's the school of criminal justice.
Mike Birzer:What's your area of choice to teach? My area primarily focuses on policing And I do teach some of our methodology courses. I do qualitative research methods And I do advance, Love quality, I love quality, I love teaching that And advanced research methods for our graduate students, which really is just more of a graduate introduction to methods, because a lot of our students are coming in. They didn't have that much preparation methodology. So yeah, law enforcement related courses.
Steve Morreale:So let me tell you my experience But in a classroom and certainly I've been at this for, i don't know, 18 to 20 years since I retired from law enforcement That when I started there was about 50% of the school for the students who wanted to be in policing And I would say that has dwindled to maybe 20%. That's anecdotal at best, but there certainly is less interest in going into policing. But so many other areas you just talked about it's cybersecurity and security itself and home insecurity, and there's so many other options out there. Are you seeing the same thing out your way? Absolutely.
Mike Birzer:I have seen that over the course of my career And I think right now for us where I'm seeing the interest is in Homeland Security Studies. A lot of students are beginning to gravitate to that area Forensics initially. We see students that come in and they are interested in the forensics But it's a heavy science program. It's heavy in the sciences And a lot of students they'll get in a year They decide this is way too much science that I want to do or deal with. But yeah, you're absolutely correct, and it comes down and somebody want to go into police work.
Steve Morreale:And it's a shame. It's unfortunate, because I think in our society, and in democratic society, we need police. There certainly have been under fire agencies. By the same token, i see an effort to reform, whether it's forced upon them or it's doing it themselves, so there is some forward momentum. Problem is, though, mike and by the way, we're talking to Mike Berzer, he is a professor at Wichita State, dr Mike Berzer, out there in Kansas And what I begin to worry about and I'm sure you were in the classroom and we're talking and Floyd incident happens and you say, well, okay, that's an outlier. And then something else happens, and well, that's an outlier, but the more it happens, the more difficult it is to convince people that this is not rampant. How do you handle that? How do you address that, not only with students, but people who know you're in a criminal justice education field? How do you address that?
Mike Birzer:It is a challenge. The thing that I try to convey to students in the classroom in one of these fortunate incidents has occurred is they don't let this deter you, particularly those that are interested in police work as a career. Use this as an opportunity to go in and make things better. And I also use that same argument Things that we know we really need to do in the criminal justice system to make it more a fairer system. And I convince a lot of my students and I know some of the students come in and they're a little bit, believe it or not, anti-criminal justice. So I try to reinforce upon them that you know, use this opportunity to go in and make things better. If you think we need to reform and change And certainly there are areas that we need to take a look at- No question about that.
Steve Morreale:It's a challenge. It is a challenge It is. It is for me too. So we talk an awful lot on this podcast about leadership and about organizational change and organizational dynamics and culture, and that's a lot of what you write about and what you research. I'd like to take you down a road for a moment about Andragogy, and I want to tell you this story.
Steve Morreale:Mike, i remember having a conversation and I'm sure you've had this experience. You come from a police background and you walk on campus. It's a completely different culture. You're shaking your head, would you agree with me? Yes, and we have to adapt. And I remember being in a university-wide conversation and somebody was talking about pedagogy And I said well, actually I use the principles of Andragogy. And somebody literally a colleague of mine looked at me quizzically and said do you have adults in your class? I thought that was the most bizarre statement I had ever heard. But it's a very uphill battle to overcome the nomenclature pedagogy versus Andragogy. I know you are quite familiar with it. You about it? Talk about it. I'd love to hear it from your perspective.
Mike Birzer:I think you know that's an interesting comment your colleague made. but you enter into college. You come to college with life experiences, some more than others, and those experiences are very real And we usually we were just talking about the students how do you something happens in the policing profession? How do you confate to students that not the entire profession and come in and let's get busy and reform things that need to be changed. So students come into the classroom with a broad range of experiences. Many times those are unique experiences And I think the professor, as a facilitator, can bring those experiences out to whatever we happen to be teaching, whether it's about criminological theory or whether it's about police training or whatever the case may be.
Mike Birzer:We can bring that students experience out or their experiences with police or the criminal justice system in general. It's really, as you're well aware when you look at and agagy, what's about facilitation. it's not about the professor just pouring forth all these facts that the student regurgitates at a later time on an exam. It's much, much more than that. It's about really being a teacher, a teacher's teacher. That's what it's all about And recognizing that students in the classroom. they bring experiences into the classroom and that the professor can capitalize upon those experiences with whatever topic they have.
Steve Morreale:I like that And certainly I see myself as a facilitator, not as a teacher, and even when I now do my syllabi it says facilitator, out of the teacher. Because I think you're facilitating conversation, you're opening it up, you're sharing, you're asking them to share their life experiences, you're asking them to utter how they feel, how the people around them feel about these particular topics, and why they feel that way And whether or not they can support that. In other words, give me some evidence behind it.
Mike Birzer:I've done the same thing on my syllabi for years. I'll use facilitator as opposed to instructor.
Steve Morreale:Having said that, some of the work you had done is to try to convince police academies to take this approach, to not be the sage on the stage. Some maybe you or me, as a lieutenant, a captain, whatever we might be to come in here and say this is the way it's done, as opposed to let's talk about it. What experience have you had? What do you think should be done? In other words, you're beginning to develop both judgment, critical thinking, and beginning to help them develop discretionary approaches to things. And how can that be value? And is that well received When you wrote that, was that well received?
Mike Birzer:I think it was well received among academic audiences. I think it was less received among policing populations And I had these conversations with police commanders and trainers over the years And I think police training, as you know, has been very, very paramilitaristic over the years. I remember doing a couple of year tour through our training academy as a training sergeant And at the time I went up there. One of the things I noticed is that recruit went out of the building. They forgot to put their ball cap. They had to carry around a big red brick for the rest of the day And I'm thinking you know what's the purpose of this? You know you kind of. So I saw police training is trying to take away who the individual was when they come in the academy And you know that's very important because they're gonna go back out into the community and they're gonna become basically a citizen, but they're just a citizen with policing responsibilities.
Mike Birzer:The whole idea of androgogy is really tops training, upside down, in the way we're used to doing things. An instructor in the front of the classroom pouring forth all the you know all these facts that recruits need to know. Androgogy, i think, would allow trainers to use that as an opportunity, for example, to teach. I see community policing what we really want in real community policing with those three elements. I see that very much relevant to androgogy. I think problem solving we can do those types of things. We can put recruits into small groups in the academy And I think we can foster their learning much, much more than more of a behavioristic academy. That's very paramilitaristic.
Mike Birzer:And there are still those academies around today that are like that. I mean they're close marching drills and things of that nature. Those are the wrong things. We wanna still mix. We prepare the recruits to go out into the field and then it's almost like we're preparing them to go out and face an enemy. Now that's important. They've gotta have those tactical skills to go out and potentially survive an encounter. But in reality that's not everyday police work. Those are rarities in the field.
Steve Morreale:Have you had any influence on police training as a result of this?
Mike Birzer:I think I have in our jurisdiction, they've recently began to adopt a lot of those what I call androgogical tenants into the classroom. So give you an example of that. So when they're teaching, they're speaking, which taught police people. When they teach their multicultural diversity and inclusivity courses, they will bring members of the community and have them interacting with the recruits during that training And it's wonderful to see that And that has never happened before. That's just an occurrence within the last few years at Wichita State.
Mike Birzer:So I've had this conversation. He's now retired. He's a retired chief there, lim Moore, who have actually presented some stuff with it, and you just wrote a book with Absolutely absolutely. He just retired and he was really instrumental in pushing a lot of that during his time as a training commander, being appointed interim police chief.
Steve Morreale:You know, it strikes me too that policing agencies in America and certainly across the world, molded themselves in the likeness of the military, and yet that's what we hold ourselves to be paramilitary. And yet if you go back to the military today, they're not doing it that way. They are relying on their field personnel to provide some information and consider what the problems might be and what some of the solutions might be. And we're not there. In many ways We're still back in the 40s and 50s, as opposed to looking at the military and the way they train their leaders today. And when it comes to leadership and leader development, we're talking to Mike Berzer, who is a professor at Wichita State University.
Steve Morreale:One of the things that troubles me is the way we in policing promote people, and very often you know this happens all of the time. You are a sergeant, you're going to be promoted to lieutenant. For a long time there's an acting lieutenant because we have to figure out who we're going to put in that position and the testing and the oral interviews and such, and so that position is left vacant for a little while And then, when you show up, whoever had it before is not going to help you because they've moved on to the next thing. This doesn't happen in the military. I wonder why we do that to ourselves. You're preaching to the choir.
Mike Birzer:I know, i know That is yes, absolutely. That was my experience as a practitioner. Give me an example of my own experience. I'm a detective, i'm assigned to the DEA task force in Wichita And I get a call, you know, to come downtown port to headquarters. I go down there and they promote me to sergeant Said. You know you'll wrap up, sign it over DEA in two weeks and you report to second watch patrol. That's where you're going. So I said great. So I show up two weeks later, second watch patrol, and here I'm looking at 15 to 18 deputies at roll call And I'm thinking when I do hear you're exactly right, no one really mentors you. You really didn't, at that time at least, receive a lot of leadership training going into that position. That's quite the opposite of the military, where you are prepared before you get into those roles.
Steve Morreale:I think in large part that still exists today And it does, it does, it makes no sense, And I think these are places where we can see some room for improvement for sure. So I appreciate you talking to me about that. I'm going to go up and down the books that you have written in the past, that I know. This has nothing to do with the list of articles you have written, but you have written policing today and tomorrow, way back when it sounds like you're doing something 20 years later. I'll get to that in a introduction to private security, introduction to criminal investigation, principles of leadership and management, racial profiling in their own words, criminals on crime. That's an interesting one to me Police officer exams, police field operations, theory and practice, a criminological guide and theoretical exploration of serial killers and infamous murders. And the most recent one it looks like it was just released as reimagined policing in the age of reform. So there's some similarities, but there's a vast swath that you are covering here, mike. So tell me you're not a one trick pony, are you?
Mike Birzer:No, i try not to be in the tradition of Malcolm Knowles and Andrew Goji. You know I'm a lifelong learner.
Mike Birzer:I like learning about different topics in criminal justice For a while you do policing research so long and you kind of need something else, and so a lot of this was opportunities. They would come my way. The racial profiling work really stemmed from a grant from the Kansas Department of Transportation, and so they were looking for someone to do some qualitative work on experiences of persons of color that felt they were racially profiled, and so that was a few years there, and then the next thing I know, the book opportunity comes up. Can you publish this? There it is? Yeah, i chalk it up to just being a lifelong learner And I like to learn about different topics. Yeah, maybe I've just been all over the place, but that's me, that's what I like And it keeps me. It doesn't get me bored.
Steve Morreale:No, i understand that. That's certainly not intended as criticism. I know you didn't take it that way. Instead of being a one-trick pony, you've got a wide variety of interests, all of which is relevant, for sure. One of the ones that strikes me is, in their own words, criminals on crime. That, to me, is your attempt to use that qualitative approach to understanding what's going on. Talk about that. And let's talk a little bit about qualitative versus quantitative. I think everybody understands quantitative, and there are some out there that feel that qualitative is not necessarily a scientific method, and I and you absolutely disagree with that. But let's talk about that.
Mike Birzer:Sure, yeah, in their own words. My dear friend and colleague, Paul Cromwell brought me into that work in. It must have been the second edition And the book really presents perspectives from criminals across the board, from white collar criminals, and it's an edited work. So we've selected some of the best pieces we thought that kind of fit into the different areas, everything from property offenders to persons that commit white collar crimes etc. And I think oftentimes in criminal justice, criminology, i think we miss that perspective from those that are actually doing the crimes.
Mike Birzer:We rarely sit down and talk to those folks about what were your motivations, why did you commit these crimes, what types of things would lead you to desist from those situations, etc. I remember Professor Cromwell years ago did a study on the ethnographic nature of Burke and published this wonderful book And I remember he coined the phrase situational analysis. So what he would do would take active offenders, those folks that said, yeah, we're committing burglaries. He would take them into various neighborhoods and said you know, if you had to commit a burglary today in this neighborhood, which house would you select And why would you select that? And just wonderful information came out of that that really can inform crime prevention practices. So, if you think about it, so I think that's one thing that we in criminal justice have tended to do is shy away from talking to those that are offenders and getting on their level to a certain extent.
Steve Morreale:Well, we see that happen, And maybe not in research or in writing, but where law enforcement will reach back out to hackers and say how'd you do it? Why would you do it? Take a look at us. Are we vulnerable? Those kinds of things. I think we miss those opportunities if we don't take them.
Mike Birzer:Yes, and remember years ago when the behavioral science unit was started at Quantico with the FBI I mean the two agents that really had that idea. They that was resisted going out and talking to folks that were involved in serial killing and things of that nature Very interesting.
Steve Morreale:So what is on your bucket list? What are you trying to accomplish next? You just finished writing. You're on to your next project pretty soon, i'm sure. What are you thinking about?
Mike Birzer:Well, i've launched into another book and it's actually been in progress now for a couple of years. It's a little more difficult one to write. I'm doing a case study of OW Wilson's tenure as chief in Wigita. So it's an historical case study which has taken me out to the University of California, berkeley, at their special holdings because that's where most of his papers are And of course a great August Valmer such a connection between Wilson and Valmer And it's been just a wonderful experience. I've got about two chapters to complete on that work before it goes off to the publisher.
Mike Birzer:But that has you know. I've studied Wilson for years And I think he is probably one of the more understudied, as Wigita days, i should say, are more understudied as far as a reformer coming into a department, the chief of police, the assistant chief, were just coming off federal indictments. I mean, wigita was a rough community in the 1930s and Wilson come in and literally reformed it from 28 to 39 when he was here. So I think it's understudied And so that's why I really wanted to launch into that work a couple of years ago. But it's tedious anytime. Historical archival data try to triangulate your sources and that's difficult. So the other thing that I'm involved in now is an actual randomized, controlled trial here in Wichita of differential police response to low risk, low harm calls.
Mike Birzer:And this was another opportunity that has kind of just came to be. I mean, it was a great opportunity. I had a real good working relationship with the chief of police. Take a tander over there And they're like 80, i think right now they're 80 some odd police officers down, and so what they're finding is that for a lot of these low risk, non-harm calls, citizens are waiting an hour, sometimes two hours for police.
Mike Birzer:They wanted to see if we can roll a citizen right over to a police officer by telephone, directly over, if satisfaction levels remain the same between a control group and our experimental group. And so we've been at this since March and we're just about to wrap this up in about a month or so, and then we're going to look at the data. We're going to see if citizens who have immediate phone contact with the police officers solve their problems, if their satisfaction levels of the police department have remained the same and they would recommend that service to others. Why is the police department still sending officers those calls when they could be rolling it over? We're going to up that to kind of a video, immediate contact by video with the police officer. That's kind of the second tier of the study, yeah that's interesting.
Steve Morreale:That's certainly happening in healthcare, so why not in policing? And I think that's a very interesting perspective, and I think COVID, some people and some agencies did exactly that, saying look, when I come into your house you can file the report online. And is that satisfying people? And if you can get more immediate reaction and get that issue, whatever the problem or complaint is, off your plate, i would surmise this is not the empirical side of things, but I would surmise that people would be satisfied. It's no different, you know, mike, it's no different than making a phone call for tech support and being put on hold. Then, sure, well, you've done it. Associate associate, associate associate. I need assistance. You're talking. I just want to talk to a human being.
Mike Birzer:That's it. Yes, we were around the table discussing the possibility of carrying out this randomized control experiment, which is very, very difficult to get everyone on board. We had meetings with our 911 center here And there's a lot that has to go on because it wants the calls or triads by the dispatcher that they could be included in the study. They literally randomized them into the group. So there was a lot that had to happen. But I remember having this conversation with a couple of the commanders over the police department we were joking around about we could publish this and maybe tele cops in Wichita, something like that. So you do, you hear about telemedicine and the same principle I like that I like that.
Steve Morreale:There you go. You might be honest something there which is terrific. I want to go back to OW Wilson. I'm going to ask you a question. Play devil's advocate. You're spending an awful lot of time, as you indicated, to look at the historical perspective, what Wilson did, what the steps he took to improve and to reform the police department. Why do you care and who else will care?
Mike Birzer:That's a great question. I think that we look at reform police reform, i mean. We seem to. Every time something happens, committees are formed, recommendations are made and nothing really really changes. I think that if we look back at some of our pioneers in this profession to see what they did and what they did right looking at Wilson in Wichita, which again is under study And that's why I really wanted to take the project on and bounce forward to 1960 when he was appointed the head of the Chicago police department on what he did there to an extremely corrupt organization at the time I think we can learn much from what reformers like Wilson did and how he did it, and I think oftentimes we don't study that from the historical perspective. So what did Wilson do and what can we adopt from Wilson?
Steve Morreale:today, the last thing that I wrote what can be learned? it sounds like you're heading in that direction, which is terrific, and I think, as you indicate, that both August Volmer and OW Wilson were way ahead of their time. And I think, chiefs, today what you're finding could find some value in the approach, even though you have to fast forward it another five decades. things have changed. You spend a lot of time having outreach to current police officers, both in the classroom, who I'm sure are your students, but practitioners in organizations. How receptive are they, how interested are they in trying to do the right thing, trying to make some improvements, being willing to hear from you as a pracidemic with some ideas?
Mike Birzer:I think they're very receptive And I think we touched on this earlier in the interview. But I think one of the things that helps when you walk into the classroom is that you've been there, you've been an officer, you've been in the field, and that brings a certain amount of credibility, i believe, to whether you have police officers in the classroom or students that are headed into various roles in the criminal justice profession. So I think on its face that helps. And I remember early in my career, early in my graduate studies, a professor told me when you get into academia, don't let it be known too much that you were a former police officer.
Mike Birzer:At that time it was resented among a lot of faculties. They didn't like that And they thought you were just going to come in and tell a lot of war stories. And so you know, i was cautioned against doing that And I didn't for a long, long time kept it off of my activity reports that I would submit at my university And then, as I really evolved into a qualitative researcher, i said you know, that's important. So then I began to reveal that more and more. But I'll never forget that And we were talking middle 1980s, late 1980s a professor telling me that's pretty sad.
Steve Morreale:It still goes on today And, as you know, and there is some disdain on campuses for criminal justice departments. In many ways because in many ways some of my experience have been it's not seen as an academic discipline. I disagree, but also there's times when I've been accused or derided for being an apologist for police, where you're trying to explain the police perspective and other faculty members who have nothing but disdain for policing do not want to hear your point of view And that's pretty sad on campus. I mean, what we see on campuses sometimes is pretty upsetting. I'll ask you this Do you find with your students that there are times when they have an open conversation with you, that they're uncomfortable in some classes because they're CJ majors and they're being ridiculed or they're being challenged? I don't know if that happens in your area, but it certainly does with us.
Mike Birzer:Yeah, i see that occasionally. You know students and particularly in some of the other social science areas that they get it pretty hard when there always has been this kind of criminal justice. It's really not a real discipline. I've seen that a lot. I don't want to. I've got a lot of colleagues close colleagues in sociology but that seems to be where a lot of my students say that they get a lot of pushback. Some of their sociology facts.
Steve Morreale:We're talking about Mike Berzer and he is a professor at Wichita State University. We're talking to him in Kansas City today.
Mike Birzer:That's what happened to the criminology program out at Berkeley University of California, berkeley, which Ballmer had a big, big hand in that, and then later OW Wilson is their first dean of the program. but once Wilson left to take the superintensity of Chicago program didn't last but a few years, and that's. I remember reading an article where it was written by a group of professors there that compared the criminology program to Nazis on campus, et cetera, et cetera. I mean it was, it was bad?
Steve Morreale:Yeah, it is, and one of the things that I think I see is there's actually some conversation that we're having among colleagues of mine from across the country. Just the question the curiosity of you or I as researchers or scholars is always looking for a question to answer, and one of the questions was is there implicit bias on campus towards criminal justice departments? I don't know whether that can ever be proven, but you're exactly right. The D Krem did not last. The doctor criminology did not last. Yes, that's a crazy thing. What's your perspective on police agencies and what they have to do to make some improvements to earn back community trust?
Mike Birzer:You know, i think that somewhere along the way we've gotten away from those key ingredients in community-based policing the idea of community partnerships, the problem solving and then organizational transformation, things that have to take place to allow police officers to really practice what Robert Tarjana was, what he really envisioned.
Steve Morreale:Bless us, bless us all, i know.
Mike Birzer:Absolutely. You know, and I think we've lost that somewhere along the way and for various reasons, i do believe that police departments really need to refocus on their organizations. And now we have evidence-based policing practices. I think are the gold standards these days. Anytime that police department can look at tested evidence that this works and implement those programs and practices that really work and get rid of those that are not showing success And that, of course, can be times a political self or a police chief particularly. But I think that police departments need to engage in the evidence-based practices as much as possible And I think that we need to get back to those core elements of community policing, not just as a specialized approach to policing, but begin to incorporate that as a holistic organizational change for your agency.
Mike Birzer:There's no reason why every police officer on any beat can't practice community policing. We know that a police officer doesn't go out and for eight hours they go from call to call. Eight hours. Some days you're going to be pretty busy, but other days there is downtime, that's when the officer parks Press the flesh Press the flesh.
Mike Birzer:Yep, get out of the car, knock on some doors. Hi, i'm Officer So-and-So. I work here every day from 3 pm to 11, whatever the case may be, and I think that we have to get back to that.
Steve Morreale:I like it. I mean taking the time to introduce, know that people realize that not everybody in fact most everybody is not against policing but doesn't know a police officer, and so making friends becomes important. You know what you were talking about with evidence-based policing and the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing has taken off. I like what has happened in the last few years and I would dare say you might feel the same way. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the leads program that NIJ has started is amazing, and I certainly wish for me and probably for you, that we had those opportunities.
Mike Birzer:Oh, absolutely, A certain commander at the Wichita Police Department I'm working with. He is very much involved in that, very much into the evidence-based practices. In fact, he just wrapped up. We co-sponsored a science-based interviewing class the past four days with him And he's doing some unique, unique work. So, yeah, I think that the evidence-based stuff and what the leads is doing with that is just great. I wish those opportunities were around when coming up At that time. I don't know if you ever got this, but there were still a lot of folks that were a lot of people that were getting graduate degrees and police agencies at that time, And so you were kind of looked at as What?
Steve Morreale:are you going to be What? are you trying to be smarter than me?
Mike Birzer:Yeah absolutely, i got a lot.
Steve Morreale:I know, i know, i know. When I was a DEA, when I ever said I was going for a doctoral program, they look at me like what, do you think You're smarter than me? And that question itself in my mind would say I think I already know the answer. And that was being facetious and a wise-ass for sure. But you're right. You're right And I think we're so lucky to be in academia And as pracodemics, i would have to say, if you don't mind my overusing word, because in many cases we're able to pay forward and help the next generation think about how they can play a role in making improvements. And we've been focusing on policing, for sure, but we're talking about policing and parole and juvenile justice and victim studies and crime analysis and such. Let's ask this, mike do you believe that police departments would be served well by civilianizing some of the positions, not being afraid to bring in specialists that are not sworn officers to do certain jobs?
Mike Birzer:Oh, I think so, absolutely. I think that many roles on the police department that are now being performed by a sworn police officer. it's wasted time. I think that we can hire civilians to fill many of those roles and probably hire civilians that have specialized in those areas that we need in policing and probably be much better at. We're looking at a mental health crisis, as you know. Now we see the benefits of employing the uses of social workers in policing. Co responses Yeah, absolutely, it makes good sense. I mean, we've, for years and years and years, police officers had to deal with those situations and we could hire others to more effectively that are trained in those areas to deal with them. That's their craft. So, yes, i agree, i think a lot of positions can be so civilianized.
Steve Morreale:How can we do some convincing to police agencies and police leaders that being willing to partner with a university can be very beneficial? Obviously, it has to be the right researcher action research rather than longitudinal research that never ends. What is your experience in trying to convince other organizations that we can work together and do some good?
Mike Birzer:things. I think in the past it's been more challenging as opposed to today, and one of the unique things that we have at Wichita State now is the law enforcement training center is now on campus and our criminal justice department is on the third floor of that building. So it makes for a natural kind of merging of the applied research that we can do for the police department. But I also think that as researchers, and particularly police researchers, when we do things we collaborate with police officers or our police departments. We need to publish that information. We need to get it out so that people can see. You know, look what we're doing here at this study. We did here a randomized controlled trial on differential police response strategies. If you have these working relationships and partnerships with police agencies, even if it's narrow within your own jurisdiction, we can begin to advance evidence based things and applying research, tested research to policy formation and strategy.
Steve Morreale:Well, i also think that in academia we have a tendency to write a different way for academic journals and that we need to do a better job of synthesizing some of that work and putting it in professional magazines in shorter order. I know you've had that experience. It's a different kind of writing and not everybody is ready for that. But what's your experience with?
Mike Birzer:that I absolutely agree. Probably some of the best feedback I've ever received on some of my early work trying to apply androgogy into police training environments is a couple of articles I published in the FBI law enforcement bulletin. That got more. You know, practitioners read those types of things. They don't read the academic journals, they read the practitioner oriented journals like the FBI bulletin, police chief magazine yep, sheriff magazine yep, and, i think, researchers. I think we've got to do a better job of trying to publish in those venues. The practitioner world is exactly what we're doing and co-publish with the practitioners. You know, once this RCT is complete, we're going to co-publish this and bring some of our police persons that have been involved in this study.
Steve Morreale:Right, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You've used an acronym. What's RCT?
Mike Birzer:Randomized control trial Okay, okay, i wanted to make sure, yes. So publishing with those that are involved in the project, putting the peace officers on that and letting them have a contribution, i think could go a long ways as well.
Steve Morreale:Well, in some ways there's a little resistance from the academic field to use the term best practices, but you know, that's exactly what nearly every police chief and deputy police chief wants to know What's the best practice out there. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We can customize it for here, but tell me what you did, how you did it, and it sounds like if you ended up with this tele-cop idea, that's exactly what they're looking for.
Mike Birzer:Yes, you're correct, and, in order of transparency, we are replicating this to a certain extent from a study that was done in the UK Right And they've done some significant work with evidence-based practices. Of course you have Dr Lawrence Sherman, who's over there at Cambridge.
Steve Morreale:Cambridge.
Mike Birzer:Yeah, absolutely. So now we're taking bits and pieces of that and seeing if we can find some of the same things that they found in the UK And there's a lot of different dynamics there from the UK to the United States policing.
Steve Morreale:Well, that has to do with police training And I was talking to a colleague of mine, dr Jim O'Keefe, yesterday and he was involved in helping Purface. They put together training. I don't even have it right here, but the training piece on 40 ideas to improve police training And I think that's very fascinating. It will help. But my experience too, going over to the UK and going over to Ireland, it's a little bit different.
Steve Morreale:And I'll ask you this, mike we don't do a lot of reflecting in police academies. You know it is not done. You're going to an academy, you come back from the academy, you go to field training, you're then put on your own, you're assessed while you're in probation and then you're on your own. As opposed to what happens over in Europe in some cases is that you go out, you have your field training and you come back now with that experience level, that lived experience, and you reflect on what did you do, what did your partner do, what could you have done different, what could you have done better. That's to me a missing component in our police training. I see you shaking your head. I have the benefit of that. What's your point?
Mike Birzer:of view, Absolutely. Yeah, I think getting into the androgogical piece you know there's a piece of that as well for reflective learning, having the learners reflect on what they've learned in the classroom and then sending them to the field for a while, having them come back into the classroom and reflecting on those perspectives That's very much in tune with androgogie and some of the other reflexive learning, what we talk about in qualitative research as well. Research has to be reflexive.
Steve Morreale:Yes, How do we move that forward in police training, i wonder? That's the typical piece. It's a question of money, because you're sending people back from the field. We do in-service and I will say that it's my experience that much of the in-service is not as stellar as it should be, is not as rigid as it should be or as rich as it should be. It's almost like we're away here, we're going to tell you what you have to know and then go back to the field. Yes, i think we've got to do a better job. I certainly don't want to see doctors trained that way to learn new surgery, right?
Steve Morreale:or a pilot who has to learn some new technology. I think we do ourselves a bit of a disservice by minimizing the value and the potential for continuing education.
Mike Birzer:Yeah, I agree. I think too that us in academia in general need to reach out to the police populations more, get them around the table and talk about these ideas, whether it's your jurisdiction level or whether it's wider within your state. You got to begin to kick around ideas with practitioners And I think once that happens, we're going to move forward significantly. That's great.
Steve Morreale:So we're going to wind down. I'm talking with Mike Berzer, Dr Mike Berzer, Michael Berzer, he is a professor at Wichita State University and also a former police lieutenant, sheriff's lieutenant. He's very active in policing, very active in research. I like the idea of qualitative research. So we wind down. If you had a chance to talk to someone dead or alive besides OW Wilson, who would you want to pick their?
Mike Birzer:brains. Well, that's a good one, You know, probably give you an international perspective. Sir Robert Peel would love to have a conversation with him And, as you know, many of those principles at least, were attempted in the United States. So I would say internationally, Sir Robert Peel and then August Volner.
Steve Morreale:That's good. And the last question I ask an awful lot of people is what do you say to students about policing and to try to convince them that they can have some value in policing in the future?
Mike Birzer:I would say to students that obviously you can look, you can watch the news media every single night and someone's going to be critical of the police. We have these incidents that occur every now and then, but they don't happen every day. But if you think that you want to be a police officer it's an honorable profession come in and change from within. That would be my advice.
Steve Morreale:So what's on the agenda for the next semester? What are you teaching?
Mike Birzer:This next semester I'm actually in summer I'm doing an online law enforcement course. In the fall I'll be doing qualitative research method and introduction to law enforcement.
Steve Morreale:That's great. I want to ask about that qualitative course. Tell me how you prosecute that course.
Mike Birzer:Okay. So I approach it, i introduce students to five approaches and I draw from Cresswell's work a Cresswell and Poth now. But so we start out looking at number one the first few weeks. What is qualitative research? and kind of give the students an idea of how that differs from quantitative orientations. And then we get into five different approaches For the semester.
Mike Birzer:We look at ethnography, we look at case study, we look at phenomenology, we look at biographical research. And to give the students whatever their research questions are, what of these areas do you think you would or the approach to qualitative research would most benefit the questions you're trying to answer? So if you're interested in how crime victims experience maybe burglary, it lends itself directly to phenomenology, because that's what it is, it's a study of experience. So I give the students broad and this is a graduate level course So oftentimes I'll have students that are in the PhD program over in community psychology will take the course and they've been oriented towards quantitative research. So gives them a whole different outlook on research and what can be done with qualitative research.
Mike Birzer:What tools do you choose to use? There's several that really the interview don't underestimate the value of the interview And of course the field field observations with ethnography is very important. Being in the field, observing that, whether as a participant observer or a non-participant observer, i think is very important. Got a graduate student now that's getting ready to defend his ethnographic research. He'd looked at rural law enforcement culture in Kansas So he literally had open access to the site that he selected and just spent months writing around with the officers hanging around the police station. So that's what I encourage students to do more of is to get into the field and observe and do ethnographic types of analyses as well.
Steve Morreale:So I'll leave you with this question in terms of software to do coding, to do the collection, parse out some of the characteristics, what do you like to?
Mike Birzer:use. Well, I use a number of different programs. In vivo is one.
Mike Birzer:Another one is just an Excel spreadsheet. I'll begin to massage the data. I think two and I did a lot of keep up on the field, the Odom Institute at the University of North Carolina. They offer the summer intensive and I've done those for the past six years now And some of the best qualitative researchers that are facilitating these classes will tell you that they don't use anything. They don't like anything to come between them and the data. They like to work it out on paper in the transcripts or their note cards or whatever. I'm not quite to that point. I do like the technology and I think it can offer some benefits, but in the end it's still up to the researcher to make sense of what that data is telling him or her.
Mike Birzer:And I could interpret transcript or a number of transcripts, much different than maybe another person that comes in and looks at those transcripts. So it's a matter of that's the nature of qualitative work. It's the interpretation of the researcher. Of course we've got ways to try to, as you know, validate our findings through member checking and a number of differences.
Steve Morreale:We can do. Well, we've been talking to Dr Michael Burser and he is a prakademic working at Wichita State University doing a number of things, including getting ready to write a book, continuing to do research and take top of it. He's in Kansas City today and we appreciate you sharing your ideas, your thoughts here to the audience. The audience is a very often people coming to us from Canada, New Zealand, from Australia, from Ireland. I'm very proud to say so. I'm happy to introduce them to you and you to them. How can people reach you if they would like?
Mike Birzer:They can email me at michaelburzer at wichitaedu. That's probably the best way. Or just if you can't, if you didn't copy that, just go to the Wichita State University School of Criminal Justice website and I'm there. That's terrific.
Steve Morreale:Well, thanks so much for your time and your energy. Good luck this weekend. I know you're out there following some baseball and I appreciate you taking a time while you're on the road. Mike, thanks very much. Have a great summer.
Mike Birzer:You too. Thank you so much for having me Take care.
Steve Morreale:All right, that's another episode of the Cop Doc Podcast. I'm Steve Morale, coming to you from Boston. Stay tuned for other episodes. We'll be back in a couple of weeks.
Intro/Outro:Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast with Dr Steve Moriale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Western State University. Please tune into the Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.
