Chief Jason Armstrong's Vision for Modern Law Enforcement

The CopDoc Podcast Season 6 - Episode 140

Join us on a journey as we chat with Chief Jason Armstrong from the Apex Police Department in North Carolina, a leader who has been reshaping the face of law enforcement. Jason's path began after college with a financial reimbursement program from the Department of Justice's Police Corps program.  This drew him away from dreams of the DEA or FBI toward a meaningful career in policing. He rose to Forest Park, Georgia, becoming the interim police chief.  He applied and was appointed to the chief's position in  Ferguson, Missouri.  This episode unravels the highs and lows of his career, shedding light on his commitment to innovation in police leadership and his readiness to confront unforeseen challenges.

In our conversation with Jason, we explore the critical role of leadership in turbulent times, highlighting his efforts to insulate his department from external pressures while fostering a collaborative culture. His experiences in racially charged environments have taught him the importance of calming organizational noise and setting a clear vision with input from all department levels. Jason opens up about the significance of transparency and resilience, especially following impactful events like the Mike Brown incident, and shares how these experiences have shaped his proactive approach to community engagement and trust-building.

As Jason Armstrong approaches retirement, he reflects on the legacy he's leaving behind and the future of policing. His insights on decision-making, officer well-being, and the balance between personal and professional life are invaluable lessons for anyone in law enforcement. While acknowledging the challenges of the profession, Jason remains hopeful and dedicated to enhancing public confidence in policing, aspiring to work with agencies worldwide. Tune in to discover how his story is not just about leadership but about hope and resilience in the ever-evolving landscape of law enforcement.

Jason has written a book, entitled I'm Done Here: Leading with Intentionality to Create Lasting Impact.  Out November 1, 2024!

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:02 Police Leadership Journey
• 9:55 Police Chief Leadership Evolution
• 20:25 Learning to Lead
• 27:48 Building Community Trust Through Engagement
• 31:17 Communication in Police Leadership Through Insight
• 40:25 Breaking Down Resistance for Change
• 45:05 Leadership, Resilience, and Hope in Policing

Transcript

Intro/Outro Announcement

00:02

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:32

Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you from Boston today and we go to North Carolina to talk to a colleague, chief Jason Armstrong of the Apex Police Department. Good morning to you, Jason (Good morning.) 

00:43

Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate you being here. I've been watching you on LinkedIn. I've been watching some of the things that you have done, the involvement you have both in policing and outside of policing now as you get ready for retirement. But let's get started by just talking about how you ended up in policing, where you were, where you are now and where you're going. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

01:01

Yes, sir, so my insertion into the profession is. 

Steve Morreale Host

01:06

You were inserted. You were inserted. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

01:09

Yes, I was inserted is what I call. It Is when I tell people is I got into policing for the money and rarely does that happen because we don't make a lot of money. But when I was coming out of college, I learned about a program that the Department of Justice was running called the Police Corps. Yes, and what that program was doing is they were recruiting college graduates that become police officers, because over 20 years ago that wasn't a natural pathway to get into law enforcement. You didn't need a college degree, so you didn't spend four years in college, didn't become a police officer, so they flashed $30,000 in front of our face. Officer, so they flashed $30,000 in front of our face. You could get up to $30,000 that you had spent towards any of your college expenses obtaining your degree. And that was really what got my attention into police. I was a criminal justice major, so I was going to be in some facet of law enforcement. I really was eyeing federal law enforcement DEA, FBI you know one of the things that looked cool on TV at the time. 

02:05

It was cool sometimes but go ahead. But that program got my attention so I ended up getting accepted into the program and I was here in North Carolina. I grew up in North Carolina. The program was broken down by state so every state didn't have the program and I was looking around the country looking to see where I wanted to go. I knew I was ready to leave North Carolina at that time and Georgia had the program and I started looking at the Georgia program. 

02:27

Georgia had a lot of agencies that were a part of the program, so your pick of where you could go work Georgia had more options than a lot of other places. So I locked in on Georgia, in particular the Atlanta area. I wanted to move to the Atlanta area and so I ended up getting accepted into the program. I did the program and I got hired by the Forest Park Police Department, which is a suburb of Atlanta, borders Atlanta, same county Fulton, so no Clayton County. Okay, right next door, yep, right next door, and got my start there. 2001 is when I graduated the academy and started in Forest Park, 21 years old, still didn't know anything, wow, didn't have a clue what I was doing in life, didn't know the city, right. 

03:04

The first time there yeah, yes, yes, yes, and just really came up through the ranks at that organization and eventually got my footing and started to see and experience different things in the profession, worked in just about every facet of the profession that my department had to offer. Coming up, then started climbing the rank and ultimately landed as the interim police chief of that organization for a short while and taking that experience that gave you the bug to run an agency. So I had the bug before that happened. I had the bug before that happened. When I first got into the profession my goal was to become a police chief and the first meeting that I had with the police chief that hired I told him like I want to be the police chief one day. I couldn't. 

03:48

I can't tell you why I wanted to do it. It just seemed like a good job to have and clearly you know I liked being in charge, or I wanted to be in charge and had that responsibility. That was always my North Star. Once I started looking at policing and had that experience. So then I got a little taste of what it was like. I got a sour taste of the world of politics in the interim police chief. I learned a lot from that experience and at that time and how that experience went, I knew it was time for me to really start exploring other opportunities outside of Forest Park, where I was, and as I'm looking at jobs around the country, I see this familiar name on my computer screen. That's looking for a police chief and that's Ferguson. 

Steve Morreale Host

04:23

Missouri. Well, why don't you jump into the fire, Jason? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

04:26

Now here's what I tell people, and this is the honest to God truth. When I applied for that job, I really was doing it as a joke to myself. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement

04:34

Nobody has ever heard of Forest Park Georgia. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

04:35

Well, very, very little. When you look on a national stage, especially at law enforcement. Very few have heard of Forest Park Georgia. Everybody knows Ferguson, Missouri, and so I'm looking at this. I'm like there's no way in the world that they would hire a nobody out of Forest Park Georgia that had a short stint as an interim chief, so I don't have all of this chief experience. 

04:57

The reason that I applied for it is because they were only asking for a cover letter and a resume for the initial submission and I said, if it would have been one of those 50 page applications that you sometimes got to fill out for a cheap job like I never would have done, because I didn't think there was any chance in the world that I would be considered or even stand a chance of getting a job. Okay, sent off my packet forward and a short while after that I got a phone call and they wanted me to come up and interview for it and once again, I went up there with no pressure because I felt like there's no way I would get this job. So I was carefree. I was really going for the experience. This should be an amazing experience to go through this process for such a noteworthy position. 

Steve Morreale Host

05:41

Well, if I can interrupt. So part of what you're saying to me and I really appreciate you saying this, thank you is that sometimes, when we dip our foot in the water, sometimes it's just for experience, as you had suggested, and look, I may mess up, but the next one I'm going to be more ready for. I suppose that's what you're thinking. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

05:56

That is exactly what I was thinking. As I said, this should be as intense as it comes. I will learn a lot in this experience. And got up there and the tides turned on my mentality change. It just so happened the day that I was flying up there they had a council meeting and I got in town in time to go to the council meeting. So I'm sitting in the back of the council meeting, don't know anybody. 

06:17

Nobody knows who I am because I just wanted to see what was going on and how the town operated, how the council operated and all of those things. What I learned at that meeting was that it was only two candidates left in the process and I'm like, what in the world are they talking about? Like I've seen the paperwork, I know there's four or five of us and it was a Tuesday evening and the manager explained to the crowd because a community member raised that issue and when the city manager addressed the council and the crowd that evening, he shared that over the weekend three candidates pulled out of the process. And then he went on and what I tell people has to be one of the biggest fabrications in the history of public safety, he said but the two remaining candidates were the strongest two candidates all along. 

Steve Morreale Host

07:00

So we feel comfortable moving forward with these two, even though someone's hiding in the back right. Yeah, exactly, he's one of them, yeah. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

07:08

But that changed my entire outlook going into that process. The next day. You had a 50% shot. 

07:13

Exactly, and I knew who my competition was. I knew it was the interim chief. And so I walked into those interviews just with all of the confidence in the world that I was about to do the unthinkable, that I was about to accomplish the unimaginable for me. And by the time I left Ferguson, at the what? Six interviews or six sessions and things I was overwhelmingly confident that I was going to be offered the job. Now, making the decision to accept the job, that was a whole nother rodeo that me and my family, you had never been to Missouri. 

07:40

Once again, right, yeah, that trip up there was the first time that I had ever been. 

Steve Morreale Host

07:43

Isn't that crazy yeah, but it's taking the risk and having confidence in yourself, and what the hell do you have to lose? I think that's part of it. I want to go back for a minute, Jason. I want to certainly hear about what your experience was, but you said something a little bit ago that you got a taste of politics and almost a sour taste, and one of the works that I do is about socio-political risk, and I think not a lot of police chiefs understand. When you're not a police chief, you're sort of insulated from politics, but when you get in there, all of a sudden you've got people asking you to do favors. Why are you doing that? Check this out. It's an uncomfortable position, but you're the person. You're almost like a lightning rod for a police department. Right, absolutely so. Can you talk about politics, and then we'll weave into what you experienced in Ferguson. I want to talk to you about leadership, reform and community engagement, which are all so interconnect, but in terms of the politics? 

08:35

were you prepared? Absolutely not. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

08:37

Absolutely not. I wasn't prepared. I didn't know. You don't know what. You don't know how I landed as the interim chief was. A lot of controversy was going on and they terminated our chief and it was a very public thing. It was just a lot of turmoil going on and it was unfortunate, because that's not who we were as an agency, that's not who we were as a community, but that's what people thought right First impressions, ah, they're all bad, so you're walking into that. 

09:02

Yeah. And so getting into there and especially my dynamic, when I became the interim chief of Forest Park, I was the first minority to be the police chief there. Race issues, race relations, community issues and things were all surrounding why they were forcing my chief out. And so when you come in as a minority and the first, there are sometimes some unrealistic expectations that are put on you or people are expecting you to be a certain way or to do this or to do that, but the simple fact that you're a minority and they're a minority. And so you start getting phone calls and when you're going to do this and when you're going to do that, and we want to see this, we want to see that. 

09:39

And it's like it doesn't work that way. We have a process to make sure that things are handled the appropriate way, the proper way. We're going to terminate somebody, they have to have due process and that has to go through the appropriate channels. If we're going to promote somebody or hire somebody, it has to go through the appropriate channels and all those things. And so you start to see how much goes on outside the police department when you're sitting in the chief seat, and that's largely how I run my organization today is my deputy chief. You're responsible for the day-to-day of the organization and keep me abreast of what I need to know what's going on. But I need you running that because there's so much outside of this building that I have to handle, I have to take care of, because my job, in a large part of my job, is to keep this building insulated from all of the outside stuff that goes on, because that's my role and responsibility. 

Steve Morreale Host

10:26

You know, doing so much training myself. I'm hearing what you're saying, I love what you're saying and your experience is so important to the listeners, Jason and, by the way, we're talking to Jason Armstrong, he's the police chief down in Apex, north Carolina but it seems to me that, while you may, as a chief, think that you're the quarterback, in a lot of ways you're a blocking back, right. Yeah, in essence you're blocking people. You're blocking people from the outside, both politicians and citizens, so your people can do the job right, while looking for, I presume while trying to sell what you're trying to do needing more people to do the job to you know, to provide public safety. That's a big job, absolutely are you ready for it. 

11:04

You're never ready. That's a big job. Absolutely. Were you ready for it? You're never ready for it. That's what I tell people. You grew into the job. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

11:08

I suppose Absolutely yes, because everybody's experience is so different. And when I mentor to young up-and-comers that want to become police chiefs and when I hear some of their takes on well, I want an agency that's this, this, this, this and this. Well, I want an agency that's this, this, this, this and this, and I'm only interested in these things, right here. And I tell them if you have a checklist of the only things that you're willing to have, you're not ready to be a police chief, because walking into the door and taking this seat as a police chief, you have to be mentally ready for the unknown and not knowing how bad or how crazy it can get day one or day two. And so having this luxury list is what I call it. Well, I only want a department this size and it has to be this, and I want low crime and I want this and I want that. You're not ready to be a police chief if that's what you're looking at. 

Steve Morreale Host

11:53

You've got to accept challenges right Exactly, Even the unknown challenges. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

11:56

Exactly that's how it's designed. I remember I was having a conversation with a pastor my pastor when I was in Missouri, and I remember I made a comment about if I had a magic ball and I would have seen or could have seen everything that I was going to have to deal with taking the chief job in Ferguson. I said I don't know if I would be up here right now and he explained to me. He said that's why God has it designed how he has it designed, he said, because you wouldn't have come if you didn't know how hard it was going to be. And but you're put in those positions to go through those challenges and those experiences because it's preparing you for what's on the other side of whether preparing you for your next challenge or preparing you to help other people navigate and handle those challenges a little bit better. 

Steve Morreale Host

12:33

Well, you know, Jason, when you talk about this so many things, when I hear somebody speak who's got all the experience that you have, I think you have to be open-minded for sure. I think you have to be willing to take risks, calculated risks, as a chief. It seems to me that one of the first things that you have to do when you walk into a current department, or even that department in Forest Park where you were taking over, there were some bad things that had happened. There were some embarrassing things that happened, that sort of tarnished the badge and the pat right, and that's one of the first things you have to do is to settle the officers, speak on behalf of the officers, set the culture to say look, whatever it is you want to do, and that's important to me to understand. 

13:12

Can we go back to that moment where you're the interim, you're having meetings, you're sitting down, you're listening. You were captain at the time when you were, when you elevated Okay, you had some exposure. You were probably number two or three of that department. What are the things that you had to do in terms of running meetings, seeking input, asking questions, setting your vision? Can you talk about that? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

13:30

Sure. So the number one thing I was trying to accomplish was I was trying to calm the noise down. There was just an enormous amount going on. And so here's what was unique about that experience is so I was a captain, so there were two majors and an assistant chief above me. I didn't know that that's a big jump Two majors and assistant chief above me, and the council appointed me the interim over all of them. 

13:55

And largely, in my opinion, that had to deal with because some of them disliked our chief so much that anybody that was tethered to our chief they automatically assumed was just a second coming of him. They didn't want that because some of them didn't like him. So you have that dynamic going on is when I came to work that Monday, these individuals were my superiors. When I left work Monday night, I'm now their superior. So that dynamic All of them were white and they appointed a minority to the chiefs. So now you have a race component. The vote by the council was three to terminate the chief. It was three to appoint me to interim black, white. So you have all of that going on inside the organization and so just a lot of unknown. You have people and understandably so, questioning me at the time. And did I have an alliance and allegiance with the Black council members behind closed doors? And all of those? Yeah? 

Steve Morreale Host

14:48

Had you cut a deal. Yeah, I understand the conspiracy theory. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

14:53

Yep, you have all of that going on, and so you know what did they put me up to. So now, what am I going to? Is my job to fire everybody. 

14:59

So, understanding everything that was going on at the time, and now I'm charged with leading this organization the number one thing that I had to do was calm the noise and calm people down and try to get back to business as usual, so to speak, and I knew the things that people wanted to see change, or things that I had been wanting to see change in the organization for several years, because those are the things that we talked about all the time. And so that's how I really started gaining some momentum with folks is I started changing some of the things that they weren't big changes and they weren't just organization turning it upside down changes, but it was things that we had been asking for, that we wanted to see just things that made sense to us for where we were, and that's how you started gaining some of the momentum and really just coming in and being the calm in the room, although inside I'm going crazy Like what in the world is going on? What you know, how did I end up in this situation? 

Steve Morreale Host

16:02

You're having noise in your own head, right and in your own gut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

16:08

That's the beauty of having a support system around you, and so I absolutely had some good people inside that organization that you know they could see I was in over my head and just some things like bringing me something to eat because they know I'm running so much that I'm not eating, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that, and forcing me to take time and all of those things was a big part of it and I locked in on the work. One thing that I'm most proud of myself in that moment was I didn't get the big head about being a chief now, and, although individuals that were above me and we may have had some challenges and some issues over the years, I still treated those individuals with the utmost respect and I didn't use my authority now to berate them or slap them Right Exactly, exactly, and I maintained that level of respect with them as we talked through some of the things that we needed to do as an organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

16:54

Okay, I want to go there. I want to go there because it seems to me that one of the roles and we'll get to that. 

17:00

you know, we're going to run out of time, which is a great situation to be in Always, but in my mind I'm curious if you feel the same way when you reach the pinnacle, when you are in charge. I love to say leadership it's all on you, but it's not about you. It's about the people both inside and outside the organization and it's about, in many ways, developing others, Finding a mentor, being a mentor, but developing others so that whatever you are trying to do in an organization has the potential for sustainability. Can you talk about that? Did you feel the same way, that that was one of your roles or is one of your roles? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

17:35

I see a little smirk and the smirk is because the book that I just wrote I saw you, I'm writing one on leadership too. 

Steve Morreale Host

17:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

17:48

Yes, and my subtitle is Create Lasting by leading with intentionality and very to your point. And what I talk about in my book is you know, come into an organization and anything. This applies to any profession. We're not just talking about law enforcement here. But when you are in leadership and you are leading and you talk about having an impact, you talk about making change or being a change agent. You're not accomplishing a whole lot if you just make a whole bunch of changes and one, those changes don't have the positive impact that you are seeking, but then, two, it's not sustainable. And if it's not lasting and that's the hallmark of leadership is what I'm putting in place and the impact that I want to have as a leader. I may not reap all the benefits of it. It may be for the benefits of the people that are coming after me, and that's how I have to position the organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

18:26

Isn't it true? You can make change unilaterally, but without bringing other people along. It doesn't have sustainability, Is that true? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

18:34

Absolutely. And people. We often talk about the buy-in, getting the buy-in, getting the buy-in, and you absolutely need the buy-in from people. But you know, when we talk about it, sometimes I don't think we apply a realistic time frame of what that looks like, because sometimes you may not get the buy-in until after you're gone. And I recently got a text message from a former colleague of mine from back in Forest Park when I was in Forest Park, and the text she sent me so this wasn't somebody, we weren't real close or we didn't have a close friendship relationship. So we're talking. 

19:05

I've been gone from there over five years, so over five years later I get the first text message from her and she's saying hey, I want to thank you for the impact that you had on me and my career and my journey. 

19:16

I know we didn't always see eye to eye on things, but it's like I see it now and I understand what you were doing or what you were bringing to the situation. And that's the beauty of leadership is, you know, knowing that the work that you're putting in right now you're planting seeds. I love it. I love that term. Yes, you want that harvest to grow. You may not be around to see it grow and to see it bear what all it has to bear. But you have to do it knowing that what you're doing, and as long as you're being intentional about doing it for the right reasons and having good intentions and good faith at play at what it is that you're doing, that's where you just have to have the confidence that what you're pouring into others is going to benefit them, whether it benefits them right now or whether it benefits them later on, once they finally realize what you were trying to do with them and how you were trying to help. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:01

Well, you know. That's great to hear, because I know there's times, even with both faculty, that I've been responsible to help along and you get an email many, many, many months and many years later saying thank you, I didn't know where you were going. It's almost like parenting your own kids don't understand why you were trying to guide them away from trouble, and thanks for your support, dad or mom, but it comes a little bit late sometimes. I want to ask you about this and I'll talk a little bit about my efforts in writing a book what is the name of your book and when is it coming up? So the title of my book is. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

20:32

I'm Done here. Create lasting impact by leading with change. It's slated to come out early November. I'm shooting for November 1st. My publisher hasn't confirmed that date for me yet, but we're shooting for November 1st. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:44

Yeah, I saw a little teaser where you had a little bit of a white cover on that just to say it was a rip. 

20:49

So my book and my premise and I'd be curious to know, because you've done this for a long time and it is choosing to lead, and my point is that very often, when you get promoted, especially in policing, your responsibility and expectation is manage, manage your shift, manage your unit, take care of that, supervise that unit, keep us out of trouble. It's a choice to lead, right, but you've got to manage first, and so that's really the premise that you have a choice to lead, you can get by. You know, there's plenty of people who have done this job, maintaining the status quo, and are perfectly satisfied, and they don't have any desire. What's wrong with what's going on here now? Is that true? So what do you think in terms of that choice? Because clearly you made the choice to lead. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

21:29

I think when it comes down to the choice, it really boils down to who you are as a person, and that's something that's not necessarily something that you can make somebody do. You can position somebody to make that choice like you're talking about, but it comes down to who you are as a person and the values that you hold. I tell people all the time, especially when I'm talking to groups and they're talking about law enforcement, and if it's somebody that doesn't view law enforcement in a positive light or because of some of the things that they've seen happen, they just feel as though that we're all wired one way and they're always on us like well, why aren't y'all doing this, why aren't you doing that? And I always have to explain like listen, the people that we hire are already who they are. When we hire them, they have already gone through life, they're all adults Now. Some are younger and still maturing and are very inexperienced, but still they come to us as they are and what our job is to position them in position organization for us to benefit and maximize the skills that they have, whichever they are, because everybody doesn't come with the same skills and we don't need everybody to come with the same skills is to utilize them to the betterment of the community and what the community is going to get and experience from them. 

22:39

And when we talk about the leaders that come in, you hear people talk about sometimes like natural born leaders, and I do agree that some individuals are natural born leaders. I talk about this in my book. I was not one of them. I am not one of them and I had to learn and experiences shape what my leadership ultimately became, and it's one of those things where I think for most people, there is a catalyst moment that drives their leadership prowess. 

23:04

For me, it was the Mike Brown incident in Ferguson, August 9th 2014. And watching what unfolded there and just following through that and reading the DOJ reports and all of the stuff in Forest Park so years early, not having a clue, a thought that I would ever end up there, but just what I saw from that and when I looked at the landscape of my agency and the community that I was policing in and me being at the level that I was at, me being the only minority in the command staff, when I looked around, I said there's nobody better equipped to lead. What we need to do to make sure that if that shooting happened here in Forest Park we don't see that same outcry from the community. So that was my catalyst moment that really shaped me as a leader and what I started doing and being intentional about my leadership. 

Steve Morreale Host

23:50

So you were not. That's a very interesting point and I'm very glad you bring it up, because I think that we have to look for teachable moments, and it seems to me that that was the same thing. What would happen here? How can we avoid it? Are we set to do that? Should we be talking about it? Should we talk about an enroll call? Because you know, invariably, when it happens in one place, if it happens again, there are people you've been on the stand, there are people who are gonna say so. Did you know this happened in Ferguson? Did you know this happened in Minneapolis? What did you do to avoid this? Did you use this as an opportunity? Did you train properly? Did you supervise properly? I know you've had that experience over and over and over again. It seems to me that if we don't use these as teachable moments, if we remain myopic and only pay attention to a hundred miles around us, that's doing a disservice to the institution of policing. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

24:37

Fair statement Absolutely, and as I travel the country doing my trainings, that is exactly what I'm talking about, because there are examples after examples after examples, and what I don't think we do well enough in law enforcement is take those examples and learn from them to build up, to try to protect ourselves from making some of those same mistakes. The examples are out there, the information is out there. Oftentimes what we run into is we're so busy, we're so overwhelmed, agencies are understaffed and the demands of our officers continue to grow and grow and grow that we don't put the necessary attention and energy and efforts behind making sure that we understand some of those issues and understand how to navigate some of the things that we've seen happen. You know, in my opinion that's why we see some of the repeated behaviors still years after we have seen how damaging that stuff can be. 

Steve Morreale Host

25:32

Yeah, it doesn't matter where it happens. It almost has a boomerang effect right back to an agency unless we address it. It troubles me. I wrote down standards, I wrote down leadership. And where did you learn to lead and where do you learn to make decisions? And there's no one place, no matter where you go. Sometimes it's trial by error. I've made my share of leadership mistakes and I've learned from them. 

25:52

There's not proper standards in this country sometimes and you came from Georgia and I know that in some cases, many years ago, there wasn't always the training standard, whether it be in Georgia or Alabama or Massachusetts, it doesn't matter, right? And so that becomes a problem because you know, jason, you think about things. By the way, we're talking to Jason Armstrong. He's the police chief in Apex, north Carolina, and I thank him for being here. What troubles me is, as we go through life and things happen we don't always say to the people in our community. This troubled me an awful lot after Minneapolis and what happened after that, right, the outrage that a lot of police chiefs didn't want to be canceled and didn't say a damn thing about it, rather than saying I'm here in Ferguson, I'm here in Apex, I'm here in Columbia, I'm here to tell you we're talking about it. 

26:45

I'm here to tell you that this did not look good, it did not appear good, it wasn't good police work. These are the reasons that we think that won't happen, but we're continuing to try to avoid it from happening. We do not condone what we saw, but a lot of people didn't do that, Jason. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

26:59

And I think a lot of people didn't know how. Now I have to give credit to a lot of law enforcement leaders across the country. No question, we saw more individuals speak up and speak out about that than I had seen at any other point in my career with some of the previous incidents that had happened. And it was because you know incidents that had happened and it was because you know that video showed us everything that we needed to see. There wasn't any other questions out there that we had about that situation. 

27:22

That was one of the times where, in Ferguson, we were able to highlight and where you see some of the benefits of being mandated to change, because all of the interviews that I did around the country after George Floyd was killed and we're talking about these issues I could highlight all of the work that we were doing in Ferguson and things that we had already put in place that would minimize the opportunity for something like that to happen in Ferguson. 

27:48

Or I could show you know, this is what we have in place to counter this or to account for this or to account for that. The only reason we had those things in place at a time is because we had already been through the Mike Brown incident and we were now under DOJ oversight under a consent decree, and we had been mandated to do those things, and so it was easy for me to talk about what was looks like and how reform can prepare you to better have even just the conversation with your community and trying to help them to understand what it is that you're doing or what you're trying to accomplish or where you're headed as an agency and as a community together, and this is how it benefits everybody that has a state and what's going on. 

Steve Morreale Host

28:36

So we hear the word fair and impartial policing, transparency, all of those kinds of things. I think the baseline of policing in this day and age is about relationships right, yes, it's relationships inside the organization, getting to know your people, not driving them like you are a drill sergeant right, Allowing them to go to the street happy and not be raided, even at home. 

29:00

If you're treated with disrespect, chances are disrespect comes out of your mouth later on. So it seems to me that these are the things that we're now in Ferguson, so we just went to Ferguson. I appreciate you going back in time, but what are the things that you did to begin to engage the community? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

29:13

The number one thing was just show up, coming into a community nobody knowing who I was. 

29:18

I didn't know anybody up there and so I understood that was working against me and I understood that I needed to cover a lot of ground as and everywhere I could, so people could see that I was going to show up anywhere, see that I was willing to meet them anywhere and see that I wouldn't run away from a difficult conversation or an uncomfortable space because I wanted them to know who Jason Armstrong was. That's one thing that is key for me. I understand that Jason Armstrong and Chief Armstrong are two different people, but what I bring to Chief Armstrong are the best qualities of Jason Armstrong and because I try to make sure that I am a quality person and a good person and my family will keep me humble to that because they won't let me be anything else Jason Armstrong fuels Chief Armstrong and so my mindset going in there is, if I can show these people in the community and if they can get to know who Jason is, that will give them the confidence in Chief Armstrong. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:22

And therefore the department, I suppose. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

30:24

Absolutely yeah, because if they don't have confidence in the leader, they're not going to have confidence in anybody else, and it was just getting out and being a part of the community and being in the community there is really what was driving everything for me, and there's nobody that I won't meet with. You could curse me out on Monday and ask me for a meeting on Tuesday, and I'm going to take that meeting. Now we're going to talk about you cursing me out on Monday and we're going to address whatever we need to address with that, but I'm always going to take the meeting. It doesn't matter if somebody has said something bad about me or if they're dogging me out on social media or any of that other stuff. Like, as the leader, you have to set the example. It doesn't matter what anybody says about me or anything. We still have a job to do and we still have relationships and partnerships to cultivate. Now, that doesn't equal friend. We can have a business relationship and we can find some common ground to work together on and we can do some amazing work in those spaces. But that doesn't mean that we're going to be friends at the end of it or that I'm going to have you over to my house for dinner. 

31:17

Too often we let our emotions drive our business decisions in this profession and it hurts relationships and we write people off because they said something about law enforcement on social media and so, oh, they're anti-police, they hate the police. 

31:42

We can't be so quick to label people or, if we feel that way, are we willing to go have a conversation with that person to get some understanding as to why they feel how they feel? 

31:45

And that's the connection that I was always looking to bring, and when I got to Ferguson, that's what I was really seeking and trying to create opportunities to have that. Now, one of the things that helped and drove that very quickly for me was the fact that the anniversary was coming up so quick and it was such a benchmark anniversary that the world was looking at Ferguson then and all of the national media is coming in. So it's already noteworthy when Ferguson hires a new chief, especially back then, it's national news. They hire a new chief weeks before the five-year anniversary of Mike Brown, and so I had an opportunity to talk to media all over the country to be able to start laying the foundation of who I was and what I was looking to do and accomplish in Ferguson, so more people were able to see that relatively quicker than normal because of the timing and the circumstances that were going on in Ferguson at the time. 

Steve Morreale Host

32:32

Understanding lived experience of others is really important and, in my mind, one of the things that's important is being willing to ask questions, shut up and listen right, because there's an awful lot of that out there. You also said something about emotions and I want to talk about this. I'm going to dig into something in a moment, but police officers react in emotions and sometimes we try to say don't take the bait, calm down. If you just got ready to arrest somebody who tried to kick you in the hootsies, you're going to be pissed off, and so the third person in may say tap out, I'll come in. 

33:03

I don't have those same emotions. That's training. But we don't want to create police that are emotionless. Right, we have to have some balance there. But it seems to me, first of all I'm thinking about OK, here's this new person, he comes in. He's never been here before. I'm on the police department. We've been beat up and look at him going out there and glad handing. He's just a politician. But what happens when you walk back to the police department after having these meetings, after hearing from the people? How do you convey what's going on, the expectations you might have as a result, the bosses might have as a result and the people might have as a result, and still maintain that guardianship of a police agency? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

33:40

The number one thing that we are charged with is protecting the community, keeping the community safe and combating crime period, regardless of all of the other variables that come into play. That is what our charge is. I think it's Coach Mike Tomlin. One of his famous phrases is keep the main thing. The main thing and so that's what a lot of it is we have all of this outside noise. Once again, the chief's job is to try to insulate individuals from the negativity and from the outside noise that could have a negative impact on us. So inside the organization, we can focus on what is important or what. What our mission is, what our charge is, and so it's really talking to people and trying to help them see and give examples of what helps us in this space, what hurts us in this space. We need officers to go out there and work. The last thing that any community needs is officer to get in their car. When they start driving around the community, their thought process is I'm not going to do anything today. That's not helping anybody. And so we were really trying to focus on what does the community need from us and hearing from them what they wanted to see from us. So, as we worked on our game plan and what strategies we were putting into place. It's taking all of that stuff into account. So we can, one, help people feel safe in this community, do things that contributes to the safety in the community, and then, three, look at what our criminal element is and what are we doing to impact that, because we can't tolerate that here and so inside the department. 

35:06

Those are the things that I try to focus on, even with us being under a consent decree. I was very intentional about when I talked about things is not tying them back to the consent decree. Now, the consent decree may tell us that we have to do X, and that's fine. We're going to talk about how we accomplish X, but we're not going to talk about the consent decree in that space. We're going to talk about how Achieving X is helping us as an agency or is helping the community and the service that we provide to them, and driving those points home. Just from that lens, it's all about the community, it's all about the department. It's not about our federal oversight or it's not about this over here or that over there all of the things that's external to the agency In other words, what's our main mission, and let's go and do it. 

35:46

Exactly, it's keep the main thing, the main thing. And what am I doing as the chief to support people in doing that? Am I giving them the tools, the equipment, the training and all of the things to be successful in how we carry that out? And when we see an area where we're void, what are we doing to correct that or to help that along? It's a balancing act. It is a very, very delicate balancing act, especially when you're in a place that is very, very contentious and is volatile at that time, and that's where I focus so much on just who I am as a person. 

36:17

I bring that individual with me to every room that I walk into, because it's tough having to tell people the honest truth when you know that they are going to hate what is coming out of your mouth. Unfortunately, we have some individuals, we have some leaders and we see it all too often where that's not what they're going to do, whatever room they're in, and people that they're in front of they're going to say what needs to be said in that room so they can walk out of that room and be loved, or whatever it is, instead of being honest with the people in that room, knowing that they're going to upset some people, whereas my take is whatever room I'm in, whatever group I'm in front of, they're going to get 100% honesty. 

36:53

I'm going to be candid in what we're talking about and what I have to share, because when I'm consistent, in whatever room that I'm in, I never have to worry about somebody coming back to me and say, well, that's not what you said, or I heard this over here. No, there's a consistency to this. Bad news doesn't get any better with time and that's something that Julie will tell you in a heartbeat when it comes to crisis communications, and so it doesn't do me any good to come in and try to land something softly when I know this is bad and it's not going to get any better. Let me just go ahead and get this out there so we can start talking through it, so we can try to work on some solutions and different things together. So it's not as bad as it could be or it doesn't get any worse. 

Steve Morreale Host

37:32

It's interesting because I think sometimes, when you have to explain why aren't you doing anything about that, because that's not a violation of the law right, it may be a violation of an inspectional services regulation, but we can't arrest for that. Sometimes you have to be realistic. You know we need probable cause in order to make an arrest, but it opens the door for you telling us what's happening, what you think is happening, so that you can be in our eyes and ears and we can be more proactive in times. Go ahead, you were going to say something. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

37:57

To that point. One of the hardest things to tell a community member is why they don't see officers in their neighborhood patrolling their neighborhood as much as they want to see them. We can come up with all of the explanations and things in the world, but just oftentimes especially when I was in Ferguson is pull up the crime stats and it's like look, you had a car break-in, you had a burglary in your neighborhood and you had this over here in your neighborhood and all of those things are bad and we wish that they didn't happen. But over in this other neighborhood we had two homicides. Over here We've had these shootings, we had this and I'm sorry, but we don't have the volume of officers for us to be in every neighborhood 24-7 like we would love to be. We're having to spend more time over here because our problems and our challenges over here are more significant Not saying that yours aren't important, but I'm just saying when we look at it, we're dealing with property over here. 

38:46

We're dealing with people's lives over here. I'm sorry, but I'm always going to prioritize life over property. That is just, candidly, what it comes down to at times, and having to talk and explain that to community members, I'm going to take the heat. After that, I'm going to take the verbal bullets. After that, I get it. 

39:02

It's not going to change the dynamic and so I'm not going to sit up here and lead you wrong saying, okay, well, I can have more officers over here because of this. Where, no, where our more pressing needs are, that's where our people are going to be and saving lives and trying to save lives is always going to take priority over protecting property. And now help me, I need more officers Now. Maybe as a community, if we stop bashing the agency on social media, where people I'm trying to recruit can see all of this stuff, that's something that some community members could help us in trying to recruit so I have more people, so I can't put more resources in your neighborhood and so helping the community understand how they play a part and how they play a role in the success of the police department one of the things that we have to do a better job of. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:47

We're going through that in a small town that I live in, where the schools are always going to get most of the money and public safety is sort of secondary in a lot of ways, and people aren't necessarily willing to pay completely for public safety. 

40:00

I had that discussion with my wife. I mean, I was in the business for 35 years and she's saying well, why not? Well, some people don't want to get arrested, Some people don't want to be harassed for speeding, Some people don't want police to be reactive and they don't really want to pay, even though they don't pay super well. So it strikes me that that's a problem. But let's talk to Jason Armstrong. You've been in Georgia, Missouri and now in North Carolina. We haven't even talked about that yet. But what I want to know is if you consider yourself a change agent, either by mistake or by design, what are the things you're most proud of to this point? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

40:35

What I'm most proud of one I will start personally for me is I didn't let the profession change me. I'm still the same person. Of course I'm more mature. 

Steve Morreale Host

40:44

Are you sure? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

40:45

about that, Jason? Yes, I am? Okay, I am, but I'm more mature Are you? 

40:48

sure about that, Jason. Yes, I am OK, but I'm really still the same person that came into it. I still have my friends from high school and college and all that stuff, so that I'm most proud of when it comes to the work I think a point that you made earlier is I'm most proud. I've been willing to take risks in this profession, especially when I felt so convicted that it was the right thing to do or that it was going to yield some positive dividends for the community and for people. I'm not always the most liked person inside my police department, inside my organization, because of some of the things that I do, but it's one of those things I understand. I understand what's beneficial for my department in trying to help people see that and understand that where they may not see it today, but I have the confidence that there's going to be a point where they're going to experience something they're going to see and they're going to recognize. This is why we do this, or this is why we have this in place. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:41

It's not instantly recognized. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

41:43

Yes, yes, and so one of my biggest learning lessons in Ferguson and being under federal oversight and all those things was the value and importance of having people in the room that don't think like you. And when I got to Ferguson, shortly after I got there, the town hired a new consent decree coordinator and for the first time, this person wasn't a sworn police officer. So they brought somebody who had a background in civilian oversight of law enforcement, and law enforcement that's one of the worst things that you can say to us is we want to bring in a civilian that's going to tell us how to do this job right. So we all have that ego and that pushback, that natural resistance to that. 

42:16

The individual that I had to work with in Ferguson and because they saw things differently and just had a totally different viewpoint than what I had, we accomplished amazing work and we made a lot of progress and got a lot of momentum into our reform work and meeting the stipulations of the consent decree, and so I took that experience. So when I came here to North Carolina, one of the things that I created here was another civilian position that was going to lead my office of professional standard. I wanted all of my complaints and internal affairs investigations. I wanted all of that stuff handled by non-sworn police officers because I wanted somebody looking at it from a different lens than what I did. 

Steve Morreale Host

42:57

Did you say non-sworn? That is correct. So you civilianized that unit. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

43:02

Yes, so my office of professional standards is all civilian staff. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:05

There had to be resistance at first. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

43:06

Absolutely, Absolutely. There's resistance. Like I said, it's hard for law enforcement to say like, yeah, what do they know? And all these things. But that was part of the conversation, even with the individual that I hired, and talking to them before I hired them. Like you understand what this journey is going to be like and how challenging it is going to be, and a large part of what you're going to have to do is to build confidence. 

43:30

Overcome resistance and develop relationships Exactly Is you're going to have to build confidence that people will know and trust that how you do your job has fairness and equity as the foundation of it, because it's not about getting officers caught up and firing officers and all that other stuff, but it's about ensuring that we have the highest level of integrity and accountability in our organization to where the community has the utmost confidence in what it is that we're doing. I mean, how often, how many times do we hear that, well, cops are just going to look after cops and we don't trust you to police your own, and just all of the things that we hear over and over and over again? You can't say that in my community here because I don't have police, policing the police. 

44:08

I have civilian oversight practitioners that handle that for us, so I have somebody when they come in, when they hear you're complaining, when they do the investigation. 

44:23

My person has never been a police officer a day in her life and so they're not applying that police officer lens to it, like all of us do, like all of us do. And the end product when I read that report all right, I'm reading a report that is fair to everybody in it, because they are only looking at facts that are at play, the circumstance, this policy applies to this, these laws apply to this, and it's more structural as how they're looking at it, as opposed to, oftentimes, those of us that have been in the job. You know we can read something and then we apply our brain. Well, you know, I had a similar situation and I know that this normally happens. Or I would have done this, I would have done that. Take that out of the equation. And so now my officers are able to see, now that we've had this in place for a couple of years now, we're not out to get you, but we're here to create a better product and something that the community can have more confidence in and that they can get behind better. 

Steve Morreale Host

45:05

Are you satisfied with what? What has been accomplished Would? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

45:08

you recommend this for other agencies. 

Steve Morreale Host

45:10

I do. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

45:11

Absolutely, good, good, good, absolutely. And I've had some reach out to me, you know, inquiring like all right, how did that work? Yeah, that's something what I do with my consulting business, working with an agency on the West Coast right now that is building out a compliance unit inside their organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

45:28

Oh, I like it. I like compliance, because we don't really do an awful lot of that. We don't look at ourselves that often. It seems to me is we're going to have to wind down because we're running up against some time. But a couple of the things that I've written is, in a lot of ways, like Sinek would say, that, whenever possible, start with why, explain why. Why are we doing this? What's going on? As a leader, are you not going to disappoint people at times, all the time. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

45:50

I know All the time. All my people know my phrase on this and I may overshare this at times, but I tell people all the time it's like I don't care if you like my decision. I'm not here for you to like my decision. So I get that out on the table very early on with everybody, whether it is my subordinates, whether it's my equals, whether it's my supervisor, you know nobody sits in my seat and nobody understands what goes into doing my job and so I don't make decisions for likes. I don't care if anybody likes my decision. I said what my job is for people to understand the decision that I'm making. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:23

And the reason behind it Exactly Whenever possible, whenever possible. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

46:26

Exactly when we walk away from this. I want you to have complete understanding of why I made the decision that I made, or what factored into the decision that I made. Care less if you like it or not, Gotcha, Because what you learn as a chief is you're never going to please everybody. And I could give a 20% raise. There's going to be a handful of people that said this is BS. Man, it should have been 30%. I understand you can't win with everybody, so I don't try so again. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:48

we run out of time. You've brought up so many different things and this conversation has been absolutely amazing. I'm appreciative that Jason Armstrong, who is soon to be retired as the chief of Apex North Carolina Police Department, is here with us, but one of the things that I read along the way is that some people who take these positions seem to think that leadership is likership. You know what I'm saying and you're not always going to be liked. I think we just made that point. You're going to disappoint with every decision. How important is resiliency and wellness for your officers with everything we ask them to do and they see and can't unsee. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

47:25

How important is that it's extremely important because we see the evidence that we are losing this battle. We have more officers dying every year by their own hands than are being feloniously attacked while on duty. We know we're losing this battle. It's something that has been extremely important to me. Agency. 

47:43

We have a lot of initiatives going and a lot of things. We're trying to have just such a large pot of resources that my goal is, if somebody is dealing with something, that we have so many things available that they see at least one thing that they feel called to or attached to or just have an inkling to go down that avenue, and where we're continuing to build out more. We're working on a family program now where we sent out communications to our staff's family members and sent things at home and had surveys for them to fill out, because those are the people that have the real information. They see who shows up at the end of the day, who comes home and what happens in those moments, and so we know we have to do more because we're losing that battle. 

Steve Morreale Host

48:27

You know that's interesting. I remember doing a training of sergeants at one point in time. It happened to be a province, Rhode Island police officer and he said a sergeant actually. 

48:34

And he said you know, Steve, this job takes so much of us. You know I'm running from one case to another a dead body and attempted, a sexual assault, all of those kinds of things. I realized very late and too late. What I bring home is scraps for my family, which is painful to hear. It was one of those moments. I know you've heard that that just is so. I don't know if the word is offensive, but so is concerning to me, because I think I've done the same thing. You bring home scraps. You don't want to talk about what happened. You're still involved. You put it in little boxes and you keep it there and you don't want it to leak out. And then the leaks out, right? I mean, we all go through that. So paying attention as you are is good. We're running out of time. I want to ask you a couple of questions before we leave. Do you have hope for policing in the future? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

49:15

Absolutely yes. I've seen too many amazing things and I know too many quality people that are committed to seeing our profession get the respect and the praise that it deserves for the great work that we do, while we still know we have a lot of things to clean up and a lot of issues to fix. I have tremendous hope in that. What the next phase of my career looks like is me working with agencies and communities all over the country and all over the world to make sure that people understand what that looks like and have some better knowledge, some better tools and things that they can deploy in their communities to get better, a better grapple on what's going on in their communities and for their communities to have better confidence in them. 

Steve Morreale Host

49:51

So you retire just after Halloween, is that correct? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

49:54

Halloween night. Halloween was my first day in the profession. It's going to be my last day. 

Steve Morreale Host

49:58

How many years will that be? 23. 23 years. How do people get in touch with Jason Armstrong? 

Jason Armstrong Guest

50:04

Easiest way is through my website, jasonprarmstrong.com, and so my email, all my contact, all my social media yeah, going to my website is the easiest way to get in contact with me. See what all I have going on and different things that I offer. 

Steve Morreale Host

50:16

Again the name of the book, something coming out in November sometime. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

50:18

Yeah, name of the book is I'm Done here. Create lasting impact by leading with intentionality. 

Steve Morreale Host

50:23

I'll ask this last question. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

50:39

When did you realize you were done in Ferguson? To move back a little closer to home. And my wife tells me what my daughter asked her that day and I share this story in the book. My daughter asked my wife how come daddy is never happy when he sees us Painful? 

Steve Morreale Host

50:54

Yeah, Out of the mouths of babes, right Jason. 

Jason Armstrong Guest

50:56

Exactly, exactly, and I've shared this so many times that I can now get it out without crying and everything, because it ripped me to shreds. 

51:03

And so what I started looking at and analyzing is me chasing my dreams and trying to change the world and all of the stuff that I'm trying to do, like what is the cost of it and what am I willing to give up or to lose, and what was non-negotiable all along was my family, and so having that moment, you know, and luckily you know, my wife knowing and understanding that I needed to hear things like that and not to just make excuses for me to my daughter, but to share that with me. You have to do better. I understand how difficult and challenging work is, but when you walk through this door, take whatever time you need to take and muster up some damn excitement and a smile or something, because we can't have this coming into the door every day. I was beat down every single day, every single day, man, like you said, no-transcript is whole and my family is good through all of this. That's really where it started for me, where I started thinking about okay, I may not be here a whole lot longer. 

Steve Morreale Host

52:22

Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you that last question is numbing to me, and I'm sure it's numbing to so many people who are listening, because it hits you right in the gut and I'm feeling exactly the same way that you felt because I've heard the same thing. As I came home from DEA. 

Steve Morreale Host

52:36

You're just running after people and the guns and the drugs and the excitement and the problems and the fear, and I would say that I'm guilty of what your daughter was worried about in my life in an earlier time. So I think it's very important that you raise that. I'm very grateful that you raised that. I'm very grateful that you're so honest and so open and so humble to share that, because it's only when you realize recognizing is the first step, right? You know that old saying, so I appreciate that. Listen, Jason, thank you so much for your time, for your energy. You are clearly a thought leader. You've brought a lot to the table and you've got still more in your tank right as you move on helping others. 

53:15

I look forward to seeing you at IACP. Please let's connect, if we could, and I thank you for everything that you have done and I wish you the best, a with your book and B with your consulting work that I know you've already started. So thanks for being here. I really appreciate it and I wish you the best as you move on from policing, because there is an effort. 

Yes, sir, thanks, Steve, I appreciate it. Thanks very much. 

Well, that's it. That's another podcast episode in the books. We'll be back with more. Thanks for listening. I keep hearing from people all over the world responding and saying I got this out of that and this out of that. If you've got somebody who you think is a thought leader, is an innovative, is progressive, please reach out to me through the podcast, copdocpodcast.com. Let me know who that is and I'm more than willing to take a shot. Thanks, Stay safe. Have a good day. 

Intro/Outro Announcement

54:01

Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.