The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Visit our website: https://www.copdocpodcast.com
The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Lester Baker, FPD -Strategies for Progressive Policing and Community Trust
Season 7 - The CopDoc Podcast - Episode 142
What does it take to lead a police department in a city as unique as Framingham, Massachusetts? Join us for an insightful conversation with Chief Lester Baker as he shares his journey from hoping to get to the NFL to Chief of Police. Discover how Framingham's distinct demographic, including a large Brazilian community and significant drug trafficking issues, shape the challenges faced by the department. Chief Baker reveals how innovative programs like jail-diversion and the co-response model integrate clinicians within the police force, enhancing community engagement and response.
Effective communication is the cornerstone of Chief Baker's leadership strategy. He discusses the importance of transparency and proactive dialogue within the department to combat misinformation and build trust. By sharing insights on the implementation of body-worn cameras and the impact of feedback on policy development, Chief Baker highlights the need for adaptability and creativity in modern policing. We also touch on the balance between reform and progress, emphasizing how feedback plays a critical role in shaping effective policies.
Leadership development and collaboration in social services are pivotal themes in our conversation. Chief Baker reflects on the necessity of mentoring and empowering new officers to cultivate leadership potential and ensure a culture of continuous growth. The integration of mental health professionals into police work is discussed as a strategic approach to addressing complex situations, despite challenges like limited funding. Through collaboration and innovation, Chief Baker aims to navigate the evolving landscape of policing, ensuring his department remains responsive to the community's needs.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale:Hey everybody, steve Morreale coming to you from South Carolina today and we're starting another episode of the Cop Talk podcast, and today we get to talk to a colleague of mine from Framingham Mass Police Department, the Chief of Police, Llester Baker, and he is attending a meeting and so he's talking to me in a car. But whatever it takes Lester right, so good morning.
Lester Baker:Good morning, Dr Morreale. How are you? And first I would like to apologize because the private room that I was going to have for this meeting wasn't very private a lot of noise.
Steve Morreale:So one thing in policing we learn is that we have to adapt right and overcome, and that's what we're doing here, as I said. So we've been the chief of police of a former town of Framingham, now the city of Framingham, and what I'd like to do is to explain to the audience. First, I'll talk about where Framingham is. Framingham is about what, would you say, 25 minutes from Boston.
Lester Baker:Yes, 25 minutes west of Boston West of Boston and it's a good-sized city.
Steve Morreale:So let's talk about the agency and your city first, Lester.
Lester Baker:Absolutely so. Yeah, framingham is a city, as we said, west of Boston 75,000 population documented. We have a very large undocumented population. We have one of the largest Brazilian populations, probably in the US, right there in Framingham. We were a town, came a city in 2018. Police department is 136 sworn. I've been the chief now for four years.
Lester Baker:Our city we have a very serious drug issue, drug problem there fentanyl. If you think of the hub of drugs that come into the Commonwealth of Mass, you think of the pipeline from New York to Springfield, to Worcester, to Framingham, to Boston and running north and south. So we do have our fair share. One of the best things I taught about my agency is our geo-diversion program and that afforded me the opportunity to travel with you to Ireland. For over 20 years, the Frickmanham Police Department has been engaged in co-response and if you're not familiar with co-response, co-response is partnering with a clinician, basically embedded into the police department and when I say embedded, completely embedded in the police department, they attend roll calls, they go to calls that don't even involve mental health, and that's our culture. I'm definitely proud of that and it's just something we do really well there and it changed our culture and profession in that city.
Steve Morreale:So let's talk about that, but before we do, tell us about your history in policing, what the hell drew you here in the first?
Lester Baker:place. Well, it's funny. I'm going to date myself here a little bit and there might be people on here that don't know what I'm talking about. But I had a dream like every other little boy I wanted to play in the NFL. I quickly realized that was not going to happen. I did well in high school, but I was no D1 athlete and there was no NFL career. My other passion was I wanted to be a motorcycle police officer and I got that from watching many episodes. Every night of chips, I had my fake helmet, two six shooters on my hip and I rode my big wheel around my neighborhood.
Steve Morreale:That was my dream, Lester. That's a picture, huh? I'd like to see the video of that.
Lester Baker:I do have some pictures of that. I will share them with you, okay. But yeah, I'm fortunate enough to be living my dream. So I lived that dream of becoming a motorcycle officer and, to be honest with you, I never saw myself as a police chief. I'm very fortunate that I was surrounded by people that saw stuff in me and that steered me in the right path to have me pursue that. Here I am today.
Steve Morreale:So tell me how. What was the genesis of your entry into policing? When was it? Where was it?
Lester Baker:So I actually got started and they still achieve to this day. Chief Jim Hicks of the Natick Police Department actually recruited me to be a cadet when he was a Lieutenant in the Waltham Police Department.
Steve Morreale:So I had no idea I'm from. I didn't know that about you, so I'm a Waltham guy, guy.
Lester Baker:Here's some backstory. So I got offered a job as a cadet in the city of Waltham but at the same time I also got offered a patrol officer's job in the town of Lexington. So clearly I took the town of Lexington job and that's where I started. So those not familiar with Lexington, that's just a very small town, probably 15 minutes west of Boston well, that's where the famous battle of Lexington and Concord happened, though. It has a lot of history.
Lester Baker:A lot of history there, Paul Revere, you know, before he made it into Charlestown, that's where he came through. So that's where I started my career. Very small department. I thanked them for the opportunity, but I did not see myself growing in that agency. I wanted something more and at the time, in 2003, the city of Framingham was accepting lateral transfers, which you go back and police and lateral transfers to a city was unheard of, pretty much unheard of anywhere. They were very rare and now you could transfer anywhere you'd like to. Today I wanted to go to a bigger city. I wanted more opportunities and it clearly worked out very well for me.
Steve Morreale:So you're in Framingham, you're not, unfortunately, when you go to a new place, it's like starting at the bottom and you've got to work your way up right. You don't have the seniority, even though you come in with seniority, and I presume you started in patrol and did you make the motorcycle.
Lester Baker:Yes, yes, I actually made motorcycles when I was in Lexington as well. But when you transfer into an agency anyone in this profession, no, it's just like becoming a new cop all over again.
Lester Baker:I transferred with seven years. You felt you had some experience. I grew up in the city, but now everyone treats you like you were a day one rookie. So it's actually a little bit tougher when you're transferring.
Lester Baker:I had to work myself up amongst the ranks. I was able to get onto motorcycles when I was the, you know, when I was in the patrol division. I also was a member of the SWAT team. I was able to work street crimes. I got the full gamut. I shouldn't say I got the full gamut, because something I highly recommend to every officer, especially when you're, when you consider yourself a street cop get involved in the admin side of your police agency, because the sexy part of it is operations, the street but there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes on the administrative side and at some point, when you have that desire to become a boss, to become whatever it is you want to be, there is an administrative component and the work that those men and women do on the administrative side a lot of people take for granted until you're held responsible for it. So if I had to go back and do something different in those days, I would have definitely got myself more involved on the administrative side.
Steve Morreale:So you have been born and raised in Framingham, for most of your career and obviously the department, well, the city grew a little bit and so did the problems, and so as you move up the ranks, you go from sergeant to lieutenant. What was your next rank after lieutenant, deputy chief? Okay, so you were deputy chief. So you're sitting around the table because one of the things I'd like to do and, by the way, we're talking to Lester Baker and he's the chief police in Framingham, massachusetts, with the police department One of the things I like to explore is how meetings are run. Now, I know you experienced a couple of different chiefs. In some cases they were more contemporary chiefs than old-time chiefs because, you know, old-time chiefs were different and they were sort of top-down and autocratic in a lot of ways and really weren't looking for your opinion or your input. But I think that's a mistake and certainly in contemporary policing, engaging others and empowering others is important. How did you find your way to the way that you chose to, or choose to, lead?
Lester Baker:now. That's an absolute great question and I've learned a lot Best way I could describe it I learned a lot of what not to do by watching others. A lot of that is what you described and I think in times that was okay because that's the way, like you just said, where I grew up, I grew up in the generation on this job where you were told to do something and you just simply went and did it. You didn't ask why, you didn't ask how come, you just simply went and did it. And that was one of the first things I struggled with, even at the rank of sergeant, when you started getting the next generation and they're simply they weren't disrespecting you, but that's just simply the way they were brought up. They would go do whatever you asked, but they wanted to know why. So in my first years as a sergeant, lieutenant, I didn't really give a damn about asking you or responding to your why. It took some maturity and some time and some classes and just speaking with other people that no, nobody's trying to offend you, Nobody's trying to disrespect you, but that's the generation of police officers that you have. They'll go do what you want, but you're going to have to explain why and that goes in your meetings with your supervisors I've seen bosses that they simply control the meeting. They were going to give things out.
Lester Baker:Here's the pecking order. Here's the barking order. Here's what I want. Go do it Now. Those meetings are run. I truly try to run meetings with a purpose. There are way too many meetings for the sake of having meetings. So if your meeting doesn't have purpose, it loses its credibility. So we try to stick to the agenda and get through it. But you want to have people involved, because if people don't feel involved and they're just doing whatever you want, I want people to challenge me as a chief. I want my command staff to close the door and challenge me. If there's something that you feel I'm doing wrong, tell me I'm doing it wrong, but you damn well better have a reason why you're contradicting me.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, you want to be able to justify it right, justify your position right.
Lester Baker:And be bold enough, and that's what will make all of us better, because if I just simply think I'm right all the time and I'm surrounded by bobbleheads, that's you're setting yourself for failure.
Steve Morreale:That's the first time I've heard that Instead of yes man, it's bobbleheads.
Lester Baker:Yes, what I expect is my command staff, or even if I invite a lieutenant to speak out with a problem with me, I'm telling you to speak your mind. But at the end of that conversation, when the door opens, I expect you to be respectful and you're not carrying out the order or the mission for me. There's nothing more than I can't stand, is they said the chief said if you're a commander, whether you're a deputy chief, captain, lieutenant, sergeant, it's not they, it's not them, it's not the chief. You're giving that order out. It loses all credibility the moment you have your line supervisors or your mid-level management basically saying we're going to do this because he wants to. Basically, you're saying you don't agree with it, but hey, we got to do this. That's not going to be perceived well by the men and women. So that's why it's very important to hey, let's air this grievance out behind the closed doors, but when this door opens, we're united front.
Steve Morreale:So it seems to me and I talk an awful lot, and you know how much training I do about setting expectations, not once, but many times and it would also seem to me that you have maybe you have a new lieutenant coming in or a new deputy chief that you've appointed and you're setting the table. Here are my expectations, here's what my expectations of your leadership to be. Customize it for you, but I want you to be listening to your people. I'm assuming, I'm making a big assumption and I want you to get feedback from your people. And I want you to start with why I'm not talking in tactical situations Lester right when we're out there and we have to hit a house or we're making arrests or we're at an accident scene.
Steve Morreale:I'm kind of barking out orders because I've got experience and this is why I want you to close that street, do this, get that, that kind of stuff and don't question me there. But it seems to me that you are allowing the people to ask questions, to question you, to point out unintended consequences that I'm not thinking, to point out your blind spots. First of all, let me go back. I said a lot there, but my question is and it sounds like you said it that your leadership style today has evolved and changed with maturity and with experience. Is that a fair assessment?
Lester Baker:That's absolutely correct. I cannot sit here and say that was how I was day one, because I bucked at that. I had a hard time explaining myself, especially to a brand new kid on the job or somebody that wasn't of a lower rank. Here's a prime example Once or twice a year I put out a letter to the police department explaining the things that I have been doing or that I'm about to do. And I don't do that because I consider myself a soft person or I'm looking for permission. But I know that if I don't do that letter and the rumors start out about maybe a project that's happening, rumors will go rampant. People will put their own spin on it.
Lester Baker:So usually if I simply put out a letter like we just rolled out body cameras before we started the body worn camera program, we let everybody know hey, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it. It could be simply as new equipment, new software, one of the biggest things. I let officers know that I feel we are grossly understaffed, I feel that you're overworked. I am pushing the mayor, the city council, to hire more police officers. So if I don't tell them these things and I feel that way, I know they feel that way on the street and if they don't know that I'm doing those things, they're probably thinking well, he sits up there and he doesn't care that we go call to call with no break. He doesn't care that we need more officers. Officers, I'm letting them know. I'm actually even showing them you know the PowerPoints and my presentations of what I'm trying to push on their behalf. That stuff goes a long way.
Steve Morreale:It does, and I think that's part of explaining why and I'm glad to hear that because so many leaders they make decisions or they think about things that they might do, that they're considering, and they keep it to themselves. It's almost like they're afraid to tell people what we're trying to do. We may not accomplish it, but I think it behooves them to tell everybody this is what's going on. I'll give you an example Even at the university, when we were getting ready and I know you went through it too with COVID and rolling things out, that was a daily change, if not an hourly change. And if you don't communicate it with them on a regular basis, look, we have to do masks. There's mask mandate. We're not going to take action against it for criminal, because it's not a criminal matter, but this is what we need to do and this is how we're thinking about it and we'll keep you apprised. Is that important? Because it seems to me, if the mayor says something to you, don't you want to know why?
Lester Baker:Absolutely. And you know, what's even bigger is when I say something in one of those reports and it doesn't get done. The next report I explain why it did not get done. Because if I put something out there that, hey, I'm trying to do this and then I don't do it, you're going to lose credibility. So maybe it was a funding issue, maybe it simply just didn't work out, but I got to make sure I communicate that as well.
Steve Morreale:Well, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about communication and how important that is both inside and outside the organization, and that it's much better to come from you, not that you don't trust your crew or command staff, but at times it has to come from you because it's then it's not misunderstood. Yeah, absolutely.
Lester Baker:It's a little bit. I'm even thinking about turning these into videos to the men and women, because I do it. I don't know.
Steve Morreale:Lester, I'm not sure that you've got a face for video, but you could probably do an audio. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Lester Baker:So I think that's. And, like I said, I cannot sit here and say that I've done this my entire supervisor career. But I do realize where our profession is going. I do realize the way our workforce thinks the next generation of office I can't live by. Well, that's the way that we did it. I cannot stand going to my command staff when I say, hey, we need to get something done, and they'll tell me well, that's not the way we did it before we got to start thinking outside the box. So don't ever come at me and say we can't do this because we've never done it. That way.
Steve Morreale:So I want to ask a question. We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of police in Framingham, mass, and when we talk about that, I've had the opportunity to talk to so many chiefs and sometimes mentor some chiefs. And the big question I will always ask do you want to babysit the organization or you want to move it forward? And it seems to me that you are trying to move it forward and it's not easy because of reform and all of the changes that have gone through. And I know that you're very active in this reform now, given your current position. And I will add that you are now one of the commissioners for the Massachusetts Post, which is very, very new, but you are one of the representatives for the police side, and we'll talk about that in a minute.
Steve Morreale:But let's just talk about status quo versus moving the department forward, getting input from others. How is that body worn cam thing doing? What about the policy? Can you live with the policy? Are there things we have to change? When you set policy, are you one of those who says we deliberated about the policy, we wrote the policy and the policy is the policy or is it? We need to know what's going on and how it impacts you, and we'll revise it as necessary. What's your take on?
Lester Baker:that? Absolutely the latter. You cannot have a policy just for the sake of having a policy. If you're not willing to see that something's not working, have the ability to change it, then you're setting yourself up for failure. Prime example, like you said, is the body one camera policy. We just rolled out our body one camera policy last week.
Lester Baker:First things I did is I attended that 10 year conversation with Perth with body cameras so much insight to our policies. Then I went out and got policies from people basically in this region that were just starting up body cameras Because, as we know, northeast body cameras is a new thing in this area. They were not out for everyone else. So first thing I did is went and found policies and agencies where they're doing this. Well, my first question isn't what you're doing well, what did you do wrong so we don't make those mistakes? And then you know you take a piece of everybody's policy and you bring it back and you make it better and you tailor it to your community. Now, like you said, one of the first things I did as well when we did these policies is I brought in both unions. If you want buy-in to policies I'm a firm believer bring the unions in. Now we have an understanding.
Lester Baker:At the end of the day, the chief might have to. We might not be able to bait this or have a democratic conversation. It might be you're going to do this, but if you bring people to the table and let everybody be part of this, that it's going to be involved with it I think you get a lot more done. And I take this not only for policies, but even management decisions. If I can't be bold enough to say that policy wow, we dropped the ball on that, let's change that. Or hey, that decision I made, that personnel decision that I made that didn't work out very well, we might have to go in another direction. If I'm not willing to do that, then I'm definitely just babysitting. I don't care about change. One of the things I said when I took this position is my job is to make this place better than when I got it, and that is my mission. That I want to turn this place over to the next man or woman in better condition than when I got it and hope they're taking it even further.
Steve Morreale:We're talking with Lester Baker, the chief of police in Framingham, and you're listening to the CopDoc podcast, Lester. In terms of new people coming to your organization, do you talk with each one individually? A new officer? Yes, you do. Tell me what happens, Tell me what those conversations are like and then tell me about what happens when you bring somebody in who has recently promoted at Sergeant, Lieutenant or certainly Deputy Chief. What are those conversations like? I'm sure they're different for every level, but what's the basis of them?
Lester Baker:The first conversation that I have is with the new officers. I have a one-on-one with them right before they go to the police academy. I have a one-on-one with them after the day we swear them in. I invite each officer. I also invite their family directly into my office. I invite their family. I basically tell their family our expectations. I tell their family what this job is going to do to their loved one. I let their family know that they can reach out to me anytime. I give that officer the opportunity. So not only is the officer getting the expectations of the Framingham Police Department in this profession, their family is as well. I check in with them periodically during their FTO and their probation and if they do make it through probation, their one year mark, I call them in again and bring them in.
Lester Baker:I don't want to say that final conversation, but it's almost like wrapping up those other conversations basically to let them know I want them to create their own path, don't have the group thing warning them of all the stresses of this job and financial situations, and to make sure they have a hobby. Let them know where do they want to be and if you want to be somewhere, then work towards that Work period, don't get jaded and basically stay in touch with them. And as far as sergeants and lieutenants, kind of the same thing, when they get promoted you bring them in. You want to make sure they're hitting their expectations. My agency is not big enough where you don't have contact with people so you are able to have conversations. But the same thing having the expectations or setting the expectations with the oncoming supervisors and having those conversations they're absolutely huge. And one of the biggest things that I got to work on is the mentoring piece.
Lester Baker:One of the biggest problems I had when I first got promoted is I wanted people you want them to do what you want them to do, but I also wanted to do things the way that I do. It Took me a few years to realize people have their own ways of doing it and my way might not be the best way. One of the hardest things I struggle with was just letting people, you know, take care of something and do something. They might do it a totally different way, but if they get to the outcome that I'm looking for, what do I care? The way you did it.
Steve Morreale:I understand that that talks about developing others and so your role, as you see it, as a coach and you can only coach so much when you're in the chief's position because they know how busy and how many different issues you have to deal with on a daily basis and everything from budget to personnel issues to complaints and all of those kinds of things, and I know you get to delegate a lot of those. But how important is it for you to establish the role and responsibility of a sergeant, lieutenant, deputy chief? For sure, as a coach and a mentor.
Lester Baker:It's very important and it comes from all levels. Some of the best coaches and mentors in my life were simply those. They were like little league coaches. I think that is so huge, especially today, because we do not have the best way I can describe it is. I feel like leaders in the past just presented themselves and step forward. You know who they were. They made themselves known. They almost told you they were going to be next. You don't have that today.
Lester Baker:So now and I actually was at this at one point in my management career I would say to myself I have no one stepping up to be leaders. I have no one stepping up to be leaders. It's just a different generation. You have to do a little bit of digging because it's the same way. The same way they don't do something to get to the same end point that I would.
Lester Baker:Not everybody is going to step up and make themselves known or be the loudest person in the room to say I'm the leader, like the way we grew up. Now I have to do what was somewhat done for me. We got to make sure we're putting people in opportunities to bring out their leadership skills and, if you see it, you might have to go pull it out. I think there is a very big job, even bigger than the deputy chiefs, more so at the sergeant level. Now I need you to identify those leaders and bring them forward so we can start putting them in situations that we are sending them to schools. You know, back in the day you'd have 12 people beating down the chief's door that want to go to the NA or they want to go to per or they want to go to this.
Lester Baker:Now what you do is you see a young man or a young lady and you say, hey, I think this might be a great opportunity for you, I think you could benefit from this, I think this is something you would enjoy, and they go. Yeah, I was thinking about that. We knock them on one side because we say they want to know why, but they're also not bold enough, like we were back in the day, to say, hey, I deserve this. I think I should be the next person going. The mentor and the coaching is even bigger today, I think, than it was in years past, and it's a huge part. I credit numerous people in my life, even outside of policing, that kept me in my head on the right path. Everything about where I grew up said I should be doing the total opposite. I path. Everything about where I grew up said I should be doing the total opposite. I was surrounded by great people on and off the job that focused me to achieve goals that they saw in me.
Steve Morreale:One of the things you just said that I want to fill in. You were saying when you bring somebody in and you identify them as maybe seeing some potential value in going to a course of some sort that focuses on leadership and development, but I think the byproduct of that is I'm assuming you say that is that it not only help you but it's going to help the organization. If you allow them, they're going to bring things back. So, in one way, when you're sending people, let me ask you this in terms of the training when you come back and this is a pet peeve of mine and you know this has happened to you a hundred times you go to a training and you're a lieutenant or deputy chief, we lose you for a week, for 10 weeks, two weeks, and you get back and say how was it? It was great, great, get back to work, instead of asking what did you learn and what can we use? How do you approach that? Now I'm seeing you shake your head. I have the benefit of watching the video.
Lester Baker:Yes, I knew right where we were going with that. And sometimes it's a failure by the administration by not taking those skills that you just learned and then go share them with other people. And then there's times where the person just comes back they took what they did. It's for them. Yes, when we send you out, it's got to be agency driven. Yes, are there going to be things that benefit you personally? Absolutely. We as administrators got to give you now the opportunity bring back what you shared. And that goes back to those conversations our defensive tactics guys they, they felt awkward about agencies doing jujitsu now and other things. And even our firearms unit saying you know, we went out, we did this and we feel like we should go to this equipment and I'm like, okay, if I can find the funding for it or have the funding. I'm putting you in these scenarios because that's what you're to do. You're supposed to bring this stuff back.
Steve Morreale:Tell me how we can be better. Yeah, where are the gaps and how can we fill those back with what you learned? Well, I think that's about knowledge management too. That's exactly what we do, and you know this happens. I want to ask a question about the way we promote and the game that we play by waiting and waiting and waiting and somebody at the last minute drops out, says I'm retiring or I'm leaving for another agency, and there's the vacuum. And now you've got to wait for a little while to promote somebody and in the meantime, either you're without someone or you put somebody in acting, but there's no necessary training until much later after you start the job. I mean, in a perfect world, would you like to do something different by prepping people for the next step?
Lester Baker:Perfect world. I'd like to prep people before the next step, but you run into the issue of who do you prep.
Steve Morreale:That's on the list, yeah no, I know that you can't show favorites, I understand.
Lester Baker:Are you going to prep your favorites? Are you going to prep everybody? That's on the list.
Lester Baker:So that's where you run into those situations. It's absolutely would be much better. We used to not even have a program. I remember making Sergeant. It was literally here's your new badge, here's your stripes Tonight, go work the midnight shift. Now we're actually doing some in-house training and here's a prime example. So we had a history of you just made sergeant. You went on the road Back before I became chief, probably when I was a deputy chief, we started saying you know, you're going to actually ride along with a sergeant.
Lester Baker:You're going to start, you're going to do some work with the CO and see how bookings work and go through a checklist of things we want you to do. That was you would have thought that we stole somebody's dog. How dare you. You say I'm incompetent. No, we're. Basically, we want to set you up for success. What we're saying is we don't want you just to go out tonight and boom, you're sergeant. We think maybe you should sit down, work with a sergeant for a little bit, work with your shift commander, set expectations, give you some tools and then set you loose. We've taken it further, that now we do see classes that are available at the time, you do make your rank and try to send you to those as well. That's the history of policing right there, that when you basically said we're going to try to do something, give you some training, make this better for you, it was perceived as it was a knock against that person, which it clearly is not.
Steve Morreale:What are the issues that you're tackling at the department that are being thrown at you, mental health being one of them, and I know you've addressed that Well. Mental health being one of them, and I know you've addressed that Well. I want to talk about that. You talked about co-response and you know that I sometimes scratch my head because I don't think the jail diversion program title fully helps people understand what you're trying to do. Understand, instead of putting a person in jail and putting them to I mean, put them in handcuffs and putting them in jail. We're giving you a diversion program, so I understand that. But the co-response with a clinician is really important. I know you've been doing it for a long time.
Lester Baker:We partner with William and William James. They are technically partnered with William and James, so their benefits do come through there, but we clearly both hire that individual. Their office is inside the police department. Their office is actually right outside my office Technically, on paper. Are they with William James College? Yes, but they are truly part of the city and if I was to ever lose the grant funding through the Department of Mental Health, or if William James stated they didn't want to do this program, I 100% beg, steal or borrow, would find the money and hire them as city of Fremantle employees. That's how passionate I am about this. What's even better is the most junior patrol officer is just as passionate about this as I am. Let a clinician take a day off.
Steve Morreale:Nobody will care that their sector buddy took the night off, but when they need a clinician and there's not one there- it's almost like they feel exposed because they have come to lean and rely on them to step in some of those situations. I understand, and that's a pretty good situation to be in it was there 21 years ago.
Lester Baker:I just wanted to say, when we were bucketing, when we said we didn't need this, we know what we're doing and now it's run full circle. I actually hire clinicians on the weekends from other agencies to make sure I don't have a void on the weekends.
Steve Morreale:Wow, that's good, that's how much you use it for sure. So what are the issues of the day, the week, the month that you are wrestling with? The things that a police department has become a social service agency as much as it's a law enforcement agency and probably more of a social service agency than a law enforcement agency, would you say, because so little time is spent arresting people. It's dealing with all the other things. Talk about that from your perspective.
Lester Baker:Here's a prime example I have two open murders right now. I have a large fentanyl problem and that's probably I don't want to say the least of what we're doing. But, like you said, on the day-to-day, the social service, those are just nonstop. That's where the officers go from call to call. Where somebody wants us to solve a problem, that's for code enforcement. Somebody wants us to solve a problem, that's for the child not going to school. Can you do something about the trash, the lighting?
Lester Baker:Every other division within the city that has an issue all turn to the police department and we've come to the point where we know we're going to be turned to because we're always there, we're always willing to help, we're always open. So we've actually embraced that. But what has not happened with that is the funding or the personnel. We constantly were asked to do things outside of what would be our jobs and we as not only the Framingham Police Department, I think, as law enforcement has done everything. We have taken on these roles because we know people are going to turn to us, but then you don't give us the support, the personnel, the training to do these things, but we get them done.
Lester Baker:Basically, what I'm trying to say is. We're willing to do these things, but if you're going to ask more of us, you need to give me more bodies. We need more money and we'll continue doing what we do. We won't tell you that we can't do these things. We'll work with you. We'll get you to the places you may be. We might not have the solution at the police department, but we'll get you to the services that you need Right.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, what I wrote down is a couple of things that come to mind as you're talking and talking again to Lester Baker he's the chief of police in Framingham, Massachusetts that relationships become important and identifying.
Steve Morreale:But the real problem is that social services is not properly funded either, as you know, and if it was, then you'd have DYS or DFS available to you on the weekends and after four o'clock in the afternoon, and it's not. And so where do people turn? It's to the men and women in blue or green or brown or whatever the color uniform is. But I think, as a leader and you're sitting around the table because I want to ask you about your meetings, but as you're sitting around the table trying to figure out what's the issue of the day, what are the problems that we have to meet, what's the curveballs that have come with us establishing relationships with those organizations and agencies, Sunday morning we're able to call Sally or Joe from DFS or from DMR or DMH whatever that might be, or with inspection services or DPW. Tell me how important that is for the department not to ignore. It's critical.
Lester Baker:That's how important it is. So what we did is we there's a program in Chelsea, chelsea, massachusetts they refer to it as the HUB program, and we in Framingham do several models off that. And what a HUB program is is you take all your social services, your school department, everybody comes into a room for a meeting and when there is an issue, you point at that social service or that, whoever it may be. And here's what we're doing with this individual or this bit or this address, and everybody's working on the solution. As you know, usually if no one's communicating, you might have three people working on a problem and one's pushing and one's pulling. So these hub programs, you get everybody in a room and you're working on an issue and it's almost like, hey, well, I can't do this, well, I can do that, let me handle that portion. Or you handle this portion. It kind of puts people on a spot basically to say handle your business. It also gives you that face, that phone number, that name, that when you do need somebody. And it's an off hour. We're not trying to figure out. Well, who is it that we call for department of mental health for this issue? Who is it that we call for this social service, for that issue.
Lester Baker:No, you've built those relationships. You know the saying that if I'm meeting you for the first time in the middle of a crisis, we've already failed and we have several iterations of things like that, where some of them break off in a smaller group. But you definitely need those meetings and those groups to come together because they all tie into it and most of what we deal with in policing there usually is some type of mental health or some type of substance abuse component of it. So, having all those people in the same room, the thing is sometimes like I said, somebody's pushing and somebody's pulling and something that we had to work on very strongly in those groups. You go back to four years ago when all the civil unrest in George Floyd. Nobody wanted to be in the room with the police officers. They actually wanted the police officers not present. That didn't last very long because, like I said, the police officers were the only ones that were there 24-7. So then we slowly brought back into the fold you can't ignore us because we're not going away, right.
Lester Baker:We definitely weren't going to go away, but it was just.
Steve Morreale:So it sounds to me like the hub program is intended to be solution oriented. Bring a problem to the surface and come up with a plan.
Lester Baker:Have all the stakeholders, as they say, at one table and let's fix this problem together.
Steve Morreale:All right. So there's two things. As we begin thinking about winding down, give a few more minutes. I want to talk about meetings and I want to talk about your role with POST. Take me into one of your command staff meetings and think back, lester, as you were first a chief, and how you ran meetings when you first got into that position, and how you run meetings a little differently now. Tell me about that.
Lester Baker:So when I first became chief the meeting, they were just all over the place. You know, you started telling stories. They went off, they were off the agenda, the times got fluctuated. That still sometimes is an issue, just because things happen, mm hmm. But now it's got to be focused. And actually it's funny that you mentioned this, because I'm even taking it a step further. I have three deputy chiefs who sit in my command staff. I am now going to meet with them one on one, only going to be maybe 15, 30 minutes, because there's some things that we may be able to clear up in much smaller means. So when we do come together as a group, we're still even more.
Steve Morreale:It's more bigger picture because you've dealt with some of the individual issues still even more.
Lester Baker:It's more bigger picture because you've dealt with some of the individual issues Exactly. So that was a lesson learned that we're bringing too much to this one meeting when I could probably meet with you individually. We still need to keep the communication, so we're all on the same page, but that was a tweak that we made. I wasn't the chief at the time, but I heard stories of a chief of well before me that the budget was his budget and that was that. I am firmly that if I do not show up to work tomorrow, if I hit the number or I fall, you know if I'm not here tomorrow on this earth.
Lester Baker:I failed as a chief if this place doesn't skip a beat. So I want my command staff involved with the budget. They need to know about the major crimes that are happening. They need to know where all the keys and combinations and everything is Well, that's like your secretary.
Steve Morreale:I say this all the time. If your secretary goes down. You can't function. You don't even know how to order paper and paper clips and where the keys are kept right.
Lester Baker:So that's my goal. I want to make sure that, god forbid, I'm not here period, or I can't be here for three months. This place keeps going. I owe it to everybody to make sure that happens. So I think it's more so the things I've heard. I don't want to just live in a silo because I'm the chief and I hold everything I need to share so that we're all on the same page and that somebody from my command staff can step in there. They have the tools, they have the knowledge and we just keep things moving forward.
Steve Morreale:I guess a big question too is, as you're sitting in the meetings and you do have an agenda, but the agenda, that's tactical, that's your operational stuff. Got to do this, got a parade coming, who's ready for that? What's this? Then you're asking about crime. Where are we at with that crime and solving? Do we have anybody in mind? But ultimately, at what point in time do you begin the forward thinking? What do we have to do? What's missing? What's new? What should we be trying or considering and getting feedback from your crew?
Lester Baker:That's bigger than a meeting. That is all the time. That's when I've had conversations with some of my admin lieutenants. When I come to you and ask you for something or say, hey, we need to do this, don't tell me that, well, we've never done it that way, we've done it this way. Hey, chief, that sounds impossible. That's going to be hard, but let me see how we can do it, because leasing is not the same.
Lester Baker:We have to constantly be thinking about how we can do better, and that can't be safe for a staff meeting. Yes, can we bring it forward in a staff meeting? Absolutely, but every day we have to be forward thinking and thinking about, before something gets dumped on our lap, how can we make this better. So I actually, in that letter that I talked about earlier, that I put out, I kind of use that open door theory of if you have something that you think could make this place better for everybody and I preface everybody bring it forward. We don't have to wait for a letter, we don't have to wait for a meeting. I want to encourage that if there's something out there that's technology, operationally, whatever, if it's something that's going to benefit the city, this agency, agency and all our men and women. Let's take a look at it.
Steve Morreale:Do you think again in your evolution as a leader that you take the time to lead through questions, by posing questions, to making people think about something and ponder something the who, what, where, when, why and how approach to leading?
Lester Baker:Do you do that? I did not do that in the beginning. I have learned to do that, and here's a prime example. For anyone that's been in this profession They'll understand what I'm saying. I have people that come into my office and they tell me how much somebody sucks, and they tell me how bad they're doing and what they're not doing. And then my next question simply is well, what did you do about this and what are you doing to correct this? What have you done to change this? What have you done to better that person? And usually that is met with zero response.
Steve Morreale:At first. Until you keep doing it, I'm sure Right, right, yeah, right.
Lester Baker:Absolutely. So yes, that is definitely something I would like to get better at, because it's easy to say that you want people to go out and make decisions and do this and do that. Sometimes you got to feed that machine.
Steve Morreale:Well, that's an interesting perspective, because one of the things I think when you begin to ask questions whether it's a sergeant asking an officer I think we make a mistake by answering the questions Sarge, this is what happened, what should I do? And then you boomerang it back to them and say, well, what were your options? What did you do? What could you do better? That begins to develop judgment in people when we boomerang it back at them and ask them well, how would you handle it? How would you solve it? I can solve. Here's the way I feel and, having been a boss for a long time, I can answer your questions. I guess that's what I get paid to do. But if I do that, why do I need you?
Lester Baker:If I'm answering your questions, I mean, tell me how you react to that that's so well said and that's definitely something that I know professionally that I need to work on, because my first thought is exactly what you said. You give me the scenario and, especially if I have very confident and have the insight to it, my first response is to answer it and basically say, well, why didn't you do that, where I should be taking exactly what you said? Well, what were your options? Why did you do what you did? I'm a firm believer now, the agency that I grew up in there was a joke that we had to make phone calls to make decisions. You basically had to call. Well, now they text you.
Steve Morreale:Now they text.
Lester Baker:I pride myself with giving my commanders, shift commanders, unit commanders, decision-making abilities, and I truly do. It's funny to me when sometimes I just simply ask, why did you do what you did? They become offensive to that. I'm not saying you can't make that decision, but you will be able to articulate why you did.
Steve Morreale:I'm giving you that authority, but you better be able to articulate why you did what you did. Yeah, I like that. I like the idea of developing bench depth and I think that's what you were talking about when you were talking about sharing the budget and not holding everything to yourself and explaining your decisions, sometimes explaining why. You know you talk to the mayor. They said you can't do it this way. We may have to do it that way. Let's do it a little bit at a time, incremental change, and see what happens.
Steve Morreale:But you have taken on a new role that is more statewide and I do not want to cause any stir with you because of your position as a post commissioner, but I'm sure you're sitting around a table now representing the police and I know that the police and other police chiefs, your colleagues, are leaning on you to represent. You walked into this. You replaced Mike Wynn, is that correct? That is correct, right, and I've talked to Mike Wynn about this. How have you adapted? How have you become the voice and, in some way, the conscience of policing in Massachusetts so that when they're making decisions, that they're done with an informed agenda rather than the way they used to do things, I think, without input?
Lester Baker:Yeah, First off, it's an honor to basically I received the support from the mass chiefs, the mass major city chiefs, to step into this role, with their blessing, but obviously it was ultimately the governor's decision to appoint me and I was appointed by the governor to sit on the post commission. I am a post commissioner, so I am involved in votes of discipline, votes on policy, but I also do represent and have a voice for those chief agencies and it's truly something that's needed. And I'll go back to what we just talked about. When the Post Commission was formed. It was formed and legislation was made, and the number one thing that they said is we're not going to involve the police.
Steve Morreale:Here we are. Imagine that thinking. I mean, how bizarre that thinker is.
Lester Baker:That's like we're going to have the medical kick and scream about it and keep whining about it, or are you going to help, be part of the solution, and I'm very fortunate that my peers have put their faith in me to be that voice. That's part of my role is, and this is something that I always put out there. In 2013, the mass chiefs of police said to the Commonwealth we should have a post commission. It did not go over and you fast forward to the events of the civil unrest.
Steve Morreale:And it was almost Michael Brown right.
Lester Baker:Everybody acted like the chiefs didn't want that. Well, the chiefs wanted that well before this happened. We're not opposed to it. But, like you said, would you make medical decisions without medical experts?
Steve Morreale:Yeah, or would you deal with aeronautics without a pilot being on the board?
Lester Baker:I mean, it makes no sense, right? So with the day-to-day things going on, it's just going forward. Now we have a voice, so maybe things that I think were rushed will also go back to what you said. You know what's great, dr Morreale. Everything that you said in the conversation we had earlier applies to everything.
Lester Baker:Now there are some things in post that we feel were rushed, that we're not saying that we don't want. We just simply feel we might be able to do it better. Is somebody going to be bold enough, like I said myself, I'm bold enough to say you know what, men and women, I made a mistake on that policy. I think we need to change it. Is somebody going to be bold enough to say, hey, this has been five years, that's not working. We're not saying we're going to get rid of it, but what we are saying is that maybe we could do this better or maybe we can tweak that. I hope that. I'm hoping that the goal is not to just have this to say we have it. I hope the goal is to do this and make sure that it's the best post commission around the country.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, I mean when you look at posts, and certainly California is quite the model, I mean they've been around for a long, long, long, long time. It's a huge organization and mass is trying to do it their own way. That's okay. In my mind it's an evolution and intended to be for the ultimately, for the betterment. I mean there's a couple of things that rolled out, as you know that you were, you were part of from the chief side, when they ever asked you to submit all of the disciplinary records and those were made public without being vetted. Oh my God, was that a cluster, as you well know and I'm sure.
Lester Baker:Again, lesson learned would you say that will never happen again? I presume I hope that would never happen again, Exactly so it's like anything else and I'm not sitting here to bash POSHA. I think we have a very great working relationship with the chiefs in the POSHA commission. I want to see it get even better and grow from there. So I think there's this big misconception that the police don't want this and they don't want to be involved, and that couldn't be anything further from the truth. We say a thousand times nobody hates bad cops more than good cops.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, so we're talking to Lester Baker as we wind down. I want to ask this question when you look, we live in our little cocoon, we're at Framingham. You show up at the station, you're in your office, you're taking care of business in Framingham and that's your main function. But when you go to a PERF or when you go to IACP or when you get involved in POST, how does that help you basically open your eyes and take the blinders off, to look at the big world and bring some of that to the local organization? It is absolutely huge.
Lester Baker:I'll go back to my immature days as a patrol officer when you saw the chiefs going off to these conferences and everybody has something to say. Right, yes, are you going on a trip? Are you going out of state? Yes, you are, but you are bringing back so much knowledge that might not have been in your region. You meet somebody at an event and you speak to them and you've now come back with something that they've done so well and now you're going to institute it in your agency. These connections, this outreach it's unbelievable. Like I said, I went to a. There was a perf round table. It was simply for one day and it's been published. It was a 10 year.
Lester Baker:Look back on body cameras. Yes, I learned so much from that. I was in there from talking to people that have been doing this forever, learning about their mistakes, their successes. You can't put a price on this. It only drives the profession forward. Where you go wrong is, like you said, not only are they in a silo in their office, they think their community is a silo. Communities don't look the same that they did 20 years ago. So if you're not willing to get outside your silo and see that the world's changing that, this profession's changing that, technology's changing that. Everything we do is evolving and it's not even evolving like it used to. Policing would change five years, 10 years, would you agree? Policing is changing, sometimes monthly, very true. So if you're not willing to get into that and make sure that you're ahead of the curve, you're going to fall behind and it's going to be very hard to catch up.
Steve Morreale:You know, I just talked about this in a class a few minutes ago and that is to understand. I mean, I went to ACP. I didn't even see you. It was so many people there I didn't even get to see you. It was in Boston. But there was so much stuff that I learned. And being on the education and training committee is helpful, because trying to say what are we doing to create better leaders in policing and who's doing what and how can we share that Really neat stuff. But you may have drones, but this idea of drones as first responders is an amazing, amazing idea. Technology can basically, from your CAD system, can, raise something from a roof and bring a drone there and bring that video feed. I'm sure that's in the future, but it's expensive. But again, you don't have enough people. That's another eye in the sky, right?
Lester Baker:Not a helicopter. I actually have three drones and at first I was probably just like the naysayers. I said all these guys want a toy.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, they do, they do. They're just gamers, right.
Lester Baker:Well, that toy has found missing persons. That toy has been used by the cities to find out why there was a dam that was backing up or something to do with some water issue. They used the police to find out what the problem was. We partnered with the fire department. We put the drone up over a structure and they can immediately find out where the hotspot is.
Steve Morreale:Because there's a flare will do it.
Lester Baker:Yes, right, so now. So now, well, this toy really is a great tool. Yeah, one of the things that I took away from the icp is I'm now looking at doing a live time watch center my goal is real time, real time, real time crime center yeah, so now you can call 9-1-1 and the ai is going to put what's being said on the officer's screen in the cruiser. Yeah, if you can get everybody's ring camera well, not everybody, because not everyone's going to be willing to give them to you- but, everybody that's willing to give you their ring camera, their business camera, bank cameras, school cameras, traffic cameras.
Lester Baker:If a 911 call comes in from Maine and South, everybody that's registered to that camera is now going to, before the dispatcher even puts the call out. The officers are going to see what's happening. They're going to see what's being said. It's going to happen in live time. If you ever meet me in 1996, we were going to do that I would say you were crazy. You watched the Jetsons.
Steve Morreale:Isn't that true, I know?
Lester Baker:And if I'm not now willing to think about that today and make sure I do that before I retire, I'm setting this agency up for failure, because it is my job to make sure we're on the path for that technology, even though it will come. It might not get here fully until after I'm gone, but I need to set us up for success.
Steve Morreale:I know that's great, and again we're talking to Lester Baker, the chief in Framingham. As you have grown up in the industry of policing and it has changed dramatically since the time you and I pushed a patrol car Do you see hope? Do you see value in policing in the community? Do you tell new people that while there's noise out there you have to rise above the fray? Talk about that. What do you believe policing will?
Lester Baker:become. So this is a great question and I'm going to get rather personal with it, so forgive me. During the unrest of George Floyd, I hung my head, I dropped my shoulders and I walked around like the world was ending. Now, yes, was that horrible time? It absolutely was, and I fell right into the same mentality that everyone else was falling in. I questioned what we do, I questioned me even being here, and I call myself.
Lester Baker:I think it was very cowardly how I carried myself during certain phases of that time, and that will never, ever, ever, happen again. Of course you need us. Of course the police are needed. The police are one of the biggest things in our communities. And was that a horrible time? Absolutely, but I should have kept my chin up, my chest out, my shoulders back and made sure that I was leading my men have to rise above it. So, basically, what I'm saying is that women in that fashion. Bad things are going to happen, but you we're always going to be here. We'll always be here for those that need us, and we got to make sure that's the way we carry it, whether it's good times or bad times, and one of the worst things you could ever let your men and women see, is that you're down in the dumps about this profession. Yes, sometimes things get tough and it's time to toughen up and rise above it, and I'll make sure that I never, ever, make that mistake again.
Steve Morreale:Thank you s o much for taking the time and for sitting in your car while you've got a meeting that you are supposed to be attending. I appreciate that, Lester.
Lester Baker:Great, I could actually do this all day. This is like therapy.
Steve Morreale:No, I appreciate that very, very much. So that's another episode of the CopDoc podcast in the books. We've been talking with Lester Baker from Framingham, massachusetts. I appreciate that. I want to tell you that the podcast continues to grow. We're now being heard in 85 countries and I just got word that 3,000 cities in those countries are listening. So if you have any ideas about who I should talk to, I'm always looking for thought leaders, innovative police chiefs and other police personnel to talk to. Thanks very much. Have a good day, stay safe.
Intro/Outro :Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.
