The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Visit our website: https://www.copdocpodcast.com
The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Encore Episode: Dr. Shon Barnes, Madison, WI Police
The CopDoc Podcast - Season 7 - Episode 143
This episode originally aired in October 2022 (ep. 89) Shon has been the COP in Madison, WI since 2021. He was inducted into the Center for Evidence-based Policing Hall of Fame!
Prepare to be inspired by the journey of Chief Sean Barnes as he shares his unique path from serving in the US Marine Corps to leading the Madison, Wisconsin Police Department. Chief Barnes opens up about the transformative power of evidence-based policing and the SARA model, he first encountered in Greensboro, North Carolina.
His commitment to lifelong learning led him to pursue a PhD in leadership studies, influenced by his wife and mentors like Dr. Theron Bowman. Through his experiences, Chief Barnes exemplifies how strong leadership can forge effective policing strategies and strengthen community relations in today's world.
Chief Barnes candidly reflects on his leadership challenges and triumphs in Madison, revealing the critical balance between engaging with the community and maintaining internal department cohesion. His early missteps taught him the importance of prioritizing trust and accountability within the force and with the public. Chief Barnes fosters an environment where authenticity and relatability thrive by connecting personally with officers and remaining vulnerable. Ride-alongs and personal stories have become pillars of his leadership approach, showcasing the value of building genuine connections with colleagues and community members.
Discover the innovative initiatives that Chief Barnes has spearheaded, focusing on mental health, cultural awareness, and the professionalization of policing. From establishing mental health officers to embracing models like CAHOOTS, the Madison Police Department is at the forefront of progressive policing strategies. Chief Barnes also discusses the impact of programs like LEADS and the 30 by 30 initiative, which aim to increase the representation of women in law enforcement. By examining racial disparities and reflecting on events like the George Floyd protests, Chief Barnes emphasizes the need for actionable outcomes from community dialogues, driving meaningful change in 21st-century policing.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies.
Steve Morreale:And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the CopDoc podcast. Well, hello everybody. This is Steve Morreale. I'm coming to you from Boston. This is another episode of the CopDoc podcast. We're having some technical difficulties so I apologize in advance. This is being conducted by cell phone. But I am gratified, and one of the reasons I'm pushing through is because Sean Barnes is a busy guy.
Steve Morreale:And talking to Chief Sean Barnes from the Madison, wisconsin Police Department Good morning, good morning, sir. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. You look all prettied up in your white shirt, your many stars and the Madison police patch behind you. I want to thank you for coming here. I've been looking forward to having a chat with you. As you know, one of the things that we talk about here is what's going on in policing today. What about leadership? Sometimes there is a vacuum in leadership. I know that you are a service member with the Marines. Thank you for your service. Also, you unusually have a PhD in leadership studies, which is amazing. You've been at three or four different agencies, so I'd like you to explain for the audience what your route was from the Marines into policing and the many jobs that brought you to Madison.
Shon Barnes:Yeah well, first of all, thank you for having me and giving me an opportunity to share my thoughts on policing. I got to tell you that I started out my professional career as a public school teacher, so my undergraduate degree is in history pre-law. So I was a US history teacher, world civilization teacher at a public high school in North Carolina before changing over and doing something a little bit safer and deciding to be a police officer.
Steve Morreale:A little safer, huh, go ahead.
Shon Barnes:I've always been someone that really valued service. Parents really taught us that value of being on this planet is what you can do for others. I have a younger brother. I'm the oldest of three. I have a younger brother who's a police officer now he's a full resource officer down in North Carolina and my sister is a daycare provider and so we've always had that in us, and so just being able to be a part of a police department where I started my career in Greensboro, north Carolina, really shaped who I am today.
Shon Barnes:Learning about problem-oriented policing from Herman Goldstein, one of the things that really drew me to Madison and in Greensboro. Problem-oriented policing was something that you had to do. It was totally infused into everything that we did at all levels. Whether you were a rookie officer or whether you were a captain. Everyone had to be involved in this thing that we call the Sarah model, and so I really learned at a very young age in policing to value evidence-based policing and to value what works best truly to decrease crime while at the same time increasing citizen satisfaction with police.
Steve Morreale:So you started back there in North Carolina and after a stint with the US Marine Corps and then it looks like you started to at what point in time did you say I want to learn more? I presume, in order for you to do that, you had to have the mindset of a lifelong learner, and may I say what a crazy bunch of fools we are to take the step towards a doctorate, but it's a hard road, especially when you're working. I know you've had that experience, as I did.
Steve Morreale:But what made you move in that direction, Sean.
Shon Barnes:You know, a combination of things, one, my wife being a PhD as well, two PhDs in cancer, biology and toxicology.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, that's sort of like ours, huh.
Shon Barnes:Not quite.
Steve Morreale:Yes, sir.
Shon Barnes:Go ahead. He just really set an example for my entire family and I love being a student, I love being in the classroom and I worked on a master's degree at the University of Cincinnati and worked under Dr Robin Engel and a few other Cullen oh my goodness, the list goes on and on John Eck, and so, just, you know, just being around them, you know they kind of made research and evidence-based policing kind of cool to me and understanding, hey, you know the way I police, I'm on to something right and seeing that through research really really spoke to me. But I was at the University of Louisville in 2012, in the Southern Police Institute, yes, and we had a residency expert come in and that was Dr Theron Bowman, who at the time was the chief of police in Arlington, texas, who went on to become city manager, runs a consulting group now, and he told us he says, listen, you know, the feature of policing is a law degree or a PhD. And he says you know, I prefer the PhD because the PhD isn't about, it's not about having all the answers, it's about knowing the right questions to ask and then applying the scientific method in order to reach a conclusion. And when he said that a light bulb just kind of went off in me and I just started searching and doing a little praying and really asking you know, god, to show me the right program that would be a good fit for me.
Shon Barnes:You know, a lot of people go into PhD programs and don't finish because it's more about you know, the letters at the end rather than the process. I wanted a program that would be about the process and I found a program in leadership studies in Greensboro, where I was living at the time, and the program was really a good fit. It was tailored to me and I thought that what's really missing in policing, if you want to be a 21st century policing agency, is leadership, and I know you've read the president's task force on 21st century policing. But I think a big part of that that could have been explored a little bit more is leadership and how you can have the best laid plans or schemes to quote Burns, mice and men but if you don't have the leadership, planning, execution, it really is not going to matter. And so I wanted to learn how to be a better leader, because I felt like that was the trajectory of my career.
Steve Morreale:You know we're talking to Sean Barnes. He's the chief of police in Madison. He is Dr Sean Barnes. Also, we're going to be talking about a couple of things.
Steve Morreale:I do apologize because the the audio today is not the best. We're working through cell phones because of some technical issues on my my end, but I did not want to let this lie. But, sean, one of the things that I'm beginning to write a book on leadership, uh, one of the things that I'm beginning to write a book on leadership, and one of the reasons is I'm trying to stay away from being text and making it more useful to people in the field. One of the things that I started and I've heard it's not I don't own it and, by the way, I, like you, don't know everything. I'm constantly learning.
Steve Morreale:I'll learn from you today, but one of the quotes that I start in my draft is leadership. It's on you, but it's not about you, and I'd like to get your reaction to that, because I presume there is somebody in your life that saw value in you and brought you along, and so, to me, one of the things that leadership is about is identifying promising people and helping them develop and giving them opportunities to blossom, and I presume that's something that you do routinely. That's a guess on my part, but I don't think you could get where you are without bringing other people along with you. Tell me what you think about that.
Shon Barnes:No, I think that's a great quote, and there's a quote that I use a lot is that you know, good leaders have to be able to recognize talent in others, and so that just comes from my experience, where people pull me aside and had me involved in various projects and I was doing research as a lieutenant and things of that nature being able to show your talent, your skill set and then developing people. And you're right, leadership is certainly not about you and those leaders who may listen to this. My question for you is or what we sometimes used to call the leadership test who are you mentoring? Who are you cultivating? Your legacy should be those people that you brought up, and when you look at your resume, when you look at your CV, is it a list of things that you have done or is it a list of things that you have gotten done through the talents of others? And so I always think about that.
Shon Barnes:I was counseling a friend of mine recently who's trying to get promoted and he was telling me about all the things that he did as a captain and this is that. So that's great, but who are the people who can say you help them reach their goals and their objectives. I have a saying when I meet with my command staff and they always laugh. I'm like listen, I know I'm your agent. Right, I'm your agent. It's my job to make your dreams come true, but you got to help me as well. They always laugh about that. But that's really the role of leadership. If you do some reading Ken Blanchard is one of my favorites, if you read his books on servant leadership he talks about that. He talks about picking that traditional triangle and flipping it upside down and just stop sending decision making up and information down and just flip it and allow people to do the work, and so I'm a really big fan of his and that's something that really shaped my leadership philosophy.
Steve Morreale:I love the term you just said. I'm your agent. I'm sure you're not charging 10%, but that's a pretty neat point of view. I really enjoy that. So you have moved around and it's so unusual in many cases to see a police chief that has moved around and has seen different processes. And I was just writing yesterday that in many cases your leadership approach is an amalgamation of many different people that you have come upon and that could be coaches and teachers and it could be bosses, both good and bad. But it seems to me that you're a customization of a bunch of little things and learning along the way as you've moved through police departments.
Steve Morreale:We didn't talk about Chicago, and now here you are in Madison. I want to ask a question. Let's say Salisbury and Madison specifically. Here you are, the big honcho. Salisbury you're trying to figure out how to be a chief right here. You've already been a chief, but now you're trying to figure out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin. You've already been a chief, but now you're trying to figure out how to be a chief in Madison, wisconsin, somewhere you had never been Right. It's a capital city.
Steve Morreale:It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a university city. So please tell us what happened in your first little little bit when you got there Was most of it listening, was most of it trying to figure out and engaging your command staff and the rest of the people about where they've been. I know I've brought, I've walked in and say what are you most proud of? What have you done? What kind of obstacles are? Are there that I can help move out of the way to get you to be more productive? Tell us your approach, sean.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, so you know, when I came to Madison this is the second time I've come to Madison I came here when I was two years old, my mother, madison, to live with, with her big brother, my uncle, who was a student at UW Madison. She stayed for a little while and then, of course, went back to North Carolina when I was born and raised. So this is my second stint, but the first time I don't remember at two years old. But you know this, this answer, you know, maybe a little shocking to you, but I made a lot of mistakes when I first came here, and one of the mistakes that I made was trying to balance my time.
Shon Barnes:You know, 2020, 2021 was a difficult year for law enforcement. It was unprecedented, as you know. Yes, we've caused for defund the police with, in our city, 180 days of straight protests, and I saw one of the major issues as bridging the gap between the community and the police officers, and in order to do that, I needed to stop the protests, and so I spent a tremendous amount of time meeting with protesters in the back of coffee shops, in the back of people's homes. I reached out to everyone and I took a lot of criticism for policing in general, only to be able to have a conversation and say will you give us an opportunity? Give us an opportunity. And they did that. And when the verdict was read, there were people who were ready to protest, no matter what the verdict was, and I was able, with some community members, to prevent that. But on the other end, it meant that I didn't spend as much time internally with the officers as I should have. And my predecessor was very well-liked, he came from within and he had kind of, like you know, almost kind of a father figure approach to leadership, and that's something that I would never be able to recreate.
Shon Barnes:But the officers were expecting me to spend a little bit more time getting to know them than I actually did, and so, because I saw the biggest issue as preventing additional protests, but they saw the biggest issue as wanting to get to know me, wanting to know that they're supported by me, and so I probably spent, you know, 60% of my time with the community, you know, and then another 20% with elected officials who were trying to defund us, and then I probably spent 20% of my time internally, and I should not have done that.
Shon Barnes:I should have balanced my time a little bit more, and so I've had to since things have calmed down kind of reinvent myself with the officers. But that's one thing that I learned from my experience as a teacher. I had someone say if you have a bad day, erase everything on the board and go home. When you come home, guess what? That board is blank and you can put whatever you want on it. And so I look at that. I look at things that I've been successful at, things that I have not been so successful at, as another opportunity to get it right the next day.
Steve Morreale:Well, that's quite an admission and I appreciate you being so candid because, as you as you work, it's part of it's not your fault. That was a horrible time that we went through and it's it's not. It's not completely behind us yet, but I think you know what I was hearing you say that external relationships and external communication and building trust was so important at that, at that juncture, and so talk about relationships, trust and accountability inside and outside.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, absolutely so, I'll talk about um inside. Yeah, absolutely so, I'll talk about inside. So, inside, at this time in policing, police officers want to know that they are supported, but what they have problems doing is defining what that looks like. Well, I want you to go to battle for me, I want you to fight for me. I said, okay, well, if there's nothing to fight for, then you don't see me out there fighting. That doesn't mean that you're not supported, right? And so one of the things that I try to do is ride along. It's a constant theme of what I do. I did a ride along. I actually went out and patrolled an entire weekend and I had the media came out and they rode with me for one hour, but then I had the entire weekend to myself and some officers saw that, but some only saw the news clip. So it's like, well, he's just doing this for publicity. That was one hour of 48 hours of a weekend that.
Shon Barnes:I spent. They didn't see the foot patrols on State Street that Saturday night. They didn't see the call that I took at the AC hotel or a hotel where there was a disturbance, and you know they didn't see all of that, and so it's really difficult sometimes when you're playing from behind on establishing relationships.
Shon Barnes:But when it comes to the external, I look at it like this we have to be vulnerable, we have to be able to admit where we've made mistakes but then show how we're working to improve those mistakes, and we can't pretend that we're perfect. I certainly don't do that, and people see through that and it begins with just being a human being. You know, I always lead with my personality. I do a lot of public speaking around town and almost every week I'm speaking to one or two groups and I always kind of lead with who I am. You know, I talk about the experience with my father. I talk about my mother coming here, I talk about my children. I talk about who I am, because before I'm Chief Barnes I am Sean. Right, that's who I am. I'm a person that was raised, you know, by two loving parents, two hardworking parents, tow truck driver you won't find a harder working person than a mechanic that owns their own business, and my mother was a nurse, you know, one of the most noble professions that there are, and so you know I try to lead with that.
Shon Barnes:Then I did get into hey, what can we do to build the relationships you know? I really think that it's time that police leaders in America acknowledge some of the issues that people are experiencing. We have to acknowledge mass incarcerations. In 1974, when I was born, there were about 600,000 people in prisons in the US. Now there are 2.3 million people, and it doesn't just affect that person, it affects at least five other people who love them in some way. On drugs, these tough on crime things, and not embracing restorative justice, not embracing evidence-based policing, not embracing the fact that it's easier and cheaper, by the way, to prevent crime than it is to respond to it has really hurt us in policing. And so having a PhD has given me the opportunity to learn more about culture, about people, about planning and being able to bring those things to my leadership style as a chief of police, and all that is important.
Shon Barnes:If you're going to establish trust. You establish trust by voluntarily giving information about what's really going on. You don't establish trust by not giving information, and so we're trying to create a police department here in Madison that is transparent to our community. We're trying to create a police department that is responsive to the needs of our community, and I always go back to Bobby Kennedy. Every community gets their criminal it deserves, but they get the law enforcement that they insist on. And so when people talk to me about why are we doing things a certain way, you should have an answer to that question, and that answer should be rooted in some type of evidence-based policing strategy. Terrific.
Steve Morreale:Good to hear and using data and all of that stuff, and we'll get into that in a minute. But you know, one of the things I'm hearing and I'm quite curious because I want to stay on the leadership track for a moment I'd like you to share, if you would. And, by the way, we're talking to Sean Barnes. Dr Sean Barnes, who's the chief of police in Madison, wisconsin, originally from North Carolina, and I do apologize, as you're listening, that the audio is not as good as we would normally have because we're operating on a cell phone because of technical difficulties they have.
Steve Morreale:But, sean, back to you, your command staff meetings. Talk about how you set those up in the beginning to almost set expectations. My sense is you don't know it all, I don't know it all and that you're only as good as your people. And if you, if you ask questions I like Mark Watt's work, leading through questions, leading with questions and I'm curious to know what a staff meeting is like now at Madison as opposed to when you first started and how you began to steer it with your command staff started and how you began to steer it with your command staff.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, and so you know, to leaders listening, you got to understand that every meeting.
Shon Barnes:There's three meetings, right. There's the meeting before the meeting, where you set your agenda and people talk about where they are, they align themselves. There's the actual meeting and then, most importantly, there's a meeting after the meeting, when people get together and go. What is this guy talking about? I don't know if I want to do this, but you have to know that. So what we do is you know, if there's a hot button topic, if there's a restructuring that we have going on, or we're looking at promotions or whatever. You know, I try to spend time with key personnel personnel. We have a Monday meeting where it's just me and senior command staff, assistant chiefs and the director and we talk about a few things. And then, you know, during the management team meeting, the command staff meeting, before that, you know, I will let captains know where I stand on a few issues to see where they are. You know, the main thing is don't surprise me If you know I'm supporting a particular direction. You know, don't surprise me with. You know, hey, chief, I don't, I don't understand this. You have an opportunity to do that before we get in a public setting and then we give everybody and everyone an opportunity to talk about it. Number one you have to make sure that you're following policy. That's the first thing. Number two if there's a union contract, you need to make sure that you don't violate the union contract or that you understand that you will have to have an MOU in order to get this thing done. And then, number three, giving them an opportunity to have input. And then, most importantly, how will this decision affect the people who who are on the streets? How will this affect your non-commissioned staff? How will this affect your officers who are on the streets? How will this affect your non-commissioned staff? How will this affect your officers who are on the beat? And then that is what should guide your decision-making.
Shon Barnes:Oftentimes, leaders make decisions that don't affect them but certainly affect the people on the ground, without considering that, and I try not to do that. I remember what that was like. When decisions come down. It's like, okay, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, and then you look and it doesn't affect them. That's an easy decision to make, but it should be a hard decision to make because you're considering them.
Shon Barnes:And then the meeting after the meeting, let's talk about that when you get out of that meeting. You have to know, for those that are listening, that they're going to talk, they're going to go have coffee, they're going to see each other in the hallway, there's going to be a text, there will be a meeting after the meeting. What you want is to have a representative in that that can say hey, I understand how you feel. Let's at least give it a shot. Let's at least give it a try. Let's at least give it a try. We know the old joke. You've heard it a thousand times. Two things cops don't like the way things are and change. So that tends to be the case in every police department I've ever been on. But what helps out tremendously is giving them some voice in your decision making voice in your decision making.
Steve Morreale:Well, so I think, when you're speaking about that, that sometimes and often in our repertoire of trying to figure out how to make a decision is to understand what intended consequences might come from a change in policy. But one of the things that strikes me as a professor and teaching strategic planning or policy and such is, you know, I think, my guess again, sean, you would not survive if you did not believe that policies are not etched in stone, that as new information comes up, that we have to be able to be nimble and recognize. Oops, there is a clause missing about that. I think about body worn cams and how that might have come. Do you have it in Madison BWCs?
Shon Barnes:I am trying to get a body-worn pilot. It's been eight years in the making.
Steve Morreale:I have city council agreeing to allow me to do a pilot, but I still have a little ways to go, I understand, but in terms of policymaking and policy revision, is that a part of your approach? Bring forward any problems we have with a new policy so we can tweak it to make sure that it doesn't have unintended consequences that would hamper the ability of the police department and police officers to to follow those policies policies.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, so, first of all, for anyone who's listening, every policy should have an expiration date. That forces leaders to review those policies and make sure that they are current, up to date and that it's not being inequitable to anyone who may be violating that policy. That's the first thing. Additionally, I would add that policies are a guide and, just like the Bible, there's not a day that goes by that you don't violate something that's in it, and you have to know that as a leader. You know, is this a mistake of the mind or is this? A lot of special events here? A lot of.
Shon Barnes:We have Ironman here this week, we had CrossFit Games and you know we have these briefings. We set out what the policy is for, everything from traffic being shut down you name it word when they're leaving briefing. I say critical thinking is more important than policy. I want to establish an organization that understands that. Yes, we have a policy, but you are allowed, under my leadership, to bring your brain to work. You are allowed to make critical decisions when you need to and if you do that.
Shon Barnes:I think you're going to be okay, Because, again, we can't write a policy for absolutely everything, but some of the major things that we do, we just revise our policy around protests. I think it's very, very progressive. I think it gives officers a lot of autonomy not to intervene and to use other mechanisms to prevent people who may be thinking about disrupting protests and demonstrations. And so you know, we're just trying to improve. That's one of our core values continuous improvement. I think we do that probably better than any organizations I've ever been a part of.
Steve Morreale:So, as you have evolved as a chief and been a number of different police departments, it seems to me one of the things we brushed on a few moments ago was the important of mentoring others and coaching others. And so you have new people who you've decided to promote never mind hire, but promote. And how important are conversations with you, setting expectations, helping to frame their thoughts, how important, as a leader, listening becomes and coaching becomes, and adopting a more 21st century perspective in the way we interact with others. What's part of your repertoire?
Shon Barnes:Part of my repertoire is meeting with people and giving people an opportunity to talk. So I have skip level meetings with every rank. I have skip level meetings with just me and captains, just me and lieutenants, me and sergeants. I have two bi-annually meetings with the detective rank, which is a rank. Here we have what's called chat with the chiefs, where we have them sometimes in the day, at night, where officers can come on a Zoom call with us and just chat about things that they're thinking about.
Shon Barnes:We did recruitment, retention and morale meetings in every district. We just finished meetings in every district to talk about our five-year strategic plan, specifically the SWOT analysis that came about from that, things that we identified as key for us and how we're working on them right now as immediate needs before the plan is even implemented, and so we try to do that. And then we try to also get information through our command staff. Now we'll admit we have some work to do with that. We're doing a commander's retreat in December to talk specifically about resilient leadership, leadership training, specifically about communication.
Shon Barnes:You know how do we speak with one voice and make sure that every district we have six districts hear the same message. So if I pull an officer from the street in every district and put them in my office. We sit on the couch and talk Excuse me, will they tell me the same message? And so there's some work we have to do on that. I don't think every police department I've ever been in has struggled with that. You know, every police department struggles with communication from the chief message all the way down to the line officer and for some reason it gets filtered out somewhere, and so we can't accept that anymore. We have to ensure that that is important, that we understand that communication feedback.
Steve Morreale:So tell us a little bit about the Madison Police Department in terms of the size, the size of the city, the things that keep you busy the size, the size of the city, the things that keep you busy.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, so Madison is probably one of the greatest cities in America. We have about 250,000 people, with the university about 271,000 people. We are the capital city. We have two great lakes here, monona and Madonna. We are consistently ranked by Livability Magazine as the best place in America to live. We're also ranked as the fittest city in America hosting the CrossFit Games. And this week we have the Ironman. I will not be competing in Ironman, we'll be cheering people on.
Shon Barnes:I was afraid, doc. I was like when I moved here I said I hope we don't drop the band number two. So I started working Understood. But it's a good city. It's a very giving city. A lot of philanthropy is here. I feel like Madison is a place that if you moved here and you had nothing by the end of the day you'd have somewhere to stay, you'd have food, you'd have clothing and you wouldn't feel guilty about it. And also it's a very educated city more law degrees and PhDs per capita than any other city. And of course, the university has something to do with that. I have a very educated staff. I have patrol officers with law degrees. I have patrol officers with law degrees, patrol officers with master's degrees, and so we just tend to attract and collect people in Madison who are not afraid to ask questions, who are inquisitive, who are smart and who value education, which is one of the things that really really drew me here.
Steve Morreale:How many in your department? Yeah?
Shon Barnes:We have about 500 commissioned officers and about another 200 non-commissioned employees. I didn't speak a lot about that, but I just want to make mention that you know, through my leadership style, I do not ignore our non-commissioned staff. I have meetings skip level meetings with them as well. I go and see what's important to them, I go in their cubicles, we talk. They know who I am, I'm visible to them and I would just encourage every leader to do that and don't do it only when it's contract negotiation time. You need to do it all the time, because they keep everything running and they're processing paperwork and they're reading cases and they experience trauma through that and oftentimes no one ever stops by to check on them. I make sure that I do that at all six district substations and then here where the majority of our staff is in records.
Shon Barnes:I went by earlier when the weather changed to being warm here and was talking to a processing clerk. He was saying how the windows? He appreciates them, but it gets extremely hot and they don't have the ability to control the air condition. You know it seems like something small, but that's important to him. He has to sit there. He can't go anywhere else with the sun beaming down on his neck, and so we worked to get better and he really, really appreciated that A small gesture. But you know, for leaders and police organizations, do not forget your non-sworn, non-commissioned staff, and you need to make them as well, because oftentimes your strategy could mean increased work for them and they should have a voice in that, if that's truly the case.
Steve Morreale:Well, I mean, one of the things you're showing is care and empathy and that's a pretty important element of leadership. So I appreciate you saying we're talking to Sean Barnes and he is sitting in Madison, wisconsin, today, the chief of police. He is Dr Sean Barnes also, so I appreciate what you've been saying. So many things have been going on in policing and there are so many moving parts and I understand that and how you as a chief and your colleagues keep up with it is mind-boggling sometimes to me. But mental health is a major issue. Many of the calls are now mental health related. I'd be curious to know how Madison is handling that. Do you have a co-response? Do you have a group of people who can help from the outside, in other words, clinician and, as important, the well-being of police? You talked about trauma and those kinds of things. Tell us what's going on out there.
Shon Barnes:Sure, the newest thing that we have in our city is that we have a group called CARES, which is loosely based on the CAHOOTS model from Oregon and whatnot. But even before that, almost eight years ago, our department established mental health officers, and so the Bureau of Justice Assistance has designated our police department here in Madison as a learning site for other police departments that want to do co-responder models of mental health. And so we have a mental health officer in every district and we have three clinicians who work with us as well, and when those calls come out, those mental health officers will take some of those calls. But, more importantly, they do a lot of follow-up, kind of like a detective would trying to investigate a case to make sure that the person we dealt with has the services that he or she needs in order to improve their mental wellness. And so last week we had a police department here, a major metropolitan police department, come to visit to learn how to adapt our model of mental health officers.
Shon Barnes:Now it's important to note that as we deal with that, we also have to deal with the mental health of our staff, and so last year we established mental wellness days or checkup days, and so every staff member commission and non-commission will get a day to spend an hour with a clinician unless you have your own and then they get the day off, and so we call it our mental wellness days, our mental wellness checkup, and it's just an investment that our city is making into our police. As you know, the 21st Century Report on Policing speaks specifically in Pillar 6 about officer safety and wellness, and under the Obama administration I had an opportunity to work on that particular pillar and go to DC and share my thoughts on officer safety and wellness. And really it begins with understanding how the job affects us and understanding that it's not normal or natural to see, and hear and smell and touch some of the things that we do on the job, and then, if we're healthy, we can better serve our community. And I think we have one of the best things going when it comes to the way we treat our officers and understanding that this job does take a toll on you, and we want you to be healthy.
Steve Morreale:I'm glad to hear that, sean Sean Barnes in Wisconsin, madison, wisconsin. I want to talk about a couple of things before we wind down and at the end I'd like to talk about your experience with the LEADS program for NIJ. But racial and cultural issues I don't want to broad brush that. I want to dig into that. How are you addressing that in a major city, in a capital city?
Shon Barnes:Well, I think the first thing to realize is that racial disparities are real. My dissertation was in racial disparities, which is a measurement right. It doesn't show how people were treated, but it begins with understanding how to measure it and acknowledging that. And Wisconsin is probably one of the worst states in America for racial disparity, and that includes Madison. But we have to begin in policing to acknowledge that what people are feeling is real and understanding that police have not always stood on the side of justice as we define it today, and understanding that and part of my understanding was in 2020, I took an opportunity with two other police leaders Obed Magni, who was in Sacramento at the time, who I think you know, and Tariq McGraw all these scholars.
Shon Barnes:We went to Selma, alabama. We spent the day at Brown AME Church and we learned about Bloody Sunday, and then we walked 54 miles from Selma to Montgomery and that experience really was life-changing. It helped me to understand what people were going through, the number of people who stopped to check on us white, Black, spanish truckers, police officers. It really showed me that America is not a divided country. I want to say that again America is not a divided country. When you see someone walking down the road and you don't know what's going on and you stop to check on their well-being. That's who America really is. We are, I feel, a caring and understanding country, and, despite what the news media may want to show us, I have walked the wall two and a half days and there was no rhyme or reason to the people who stopped to give us water or make us sandwiches in the middle of a pandemic, and so I've seen the real America, and so I try to bring that experience to my leadership style and I try to ignore all the voices out there that say divide, divide, divide, and I try to look at how we can bring people together.
Shon Barnes:I have tough conversations with employees. I have tough conversations with the community, and I'm respected for that. When people say, man, I can't believe the cops did that, I say, well, what happened? If you dig deep, you'll see that there's probably a middle ground there as to why that interaction happened, and I'm not afraid to do that. I grew up in a community that had some issues. I grew up community housing, a housing project, whatever you want to call it and I saw my parents struggle while my father was establishing his business, while my mother was finishing school and we struck and the things that I saw in my community no one should see. I saw my first homicide at 12 years of age, and so I have an experience to share with people and that helps me to bridge the gap. We have a lot of work to do with the community and both, I think, with the police, and it begins with not only having the conversation when you leave that conversation what is it that you're going to do?
Shon Barnes:I have this saying when I leave community meetings that everyone will leave with homework. What I mean by that is we're not just going to come and you're going to say do something about traffic, do something about kids.
Steve Morreale:We're going to say what are we going to do together? And I think that's how we began to start bridging some of the gaps. When Floyd was killed, when George Floyd was killed at the hands of a police officer, there are so many things that police could have done for their community to say, look, we don't agree with that. I'm not putting words in anybody's mouth. We don't agree with this. This is what we do differently. I can't guarantee it won't happen here, but here are the steps that we take to try to avoid that from happening in Madison or in Salisbury or wherever it is from happening in Madison or in Salisbury or wherever it is.
Steve Morreale:Why is there a reluctance in your mind for some especially smaller chiefs to stand on the sidelines rather than getting out there in front?
Shon Barnes:of it Because police chiefs are afraid that maybe it was justified and, to be honest with you, it doesn't take much to justify legally some of the things that we've seen in the community. I got to tell you that when George Floyd happened I will tell you, I initially didn't see the video. It just happened during one of those times where I'm working on budget because we had a fiscal budget at the time. You know, I think it happened in March. You know you have to get stuff. I was just busy and I wasn't watching the news and I had a sergeant SWAT team guy Some people may refer.
Shon Barnes:He's like my tackleberry right and I'm dating myself. But he comes in and this is a guy who is all about kicking in doors and putting handcuffs on people and he's like, hey, major, did you see this? And I'm like I don't know what you're talking about. He showed it. He was shocked and when he was shocked I was like I better pay attention to this and it shocked my conscience. I think it shocked the conscience of a lot of people when it happened and I knew that I had to say something. So I went to my chief and we started talking about how do we message this, and so we settled on social media something in written form, because it's something about reading rather than hearing.
Steve Morreale:You know, I think it has a longer lasting effect. Sometimes, sean right.
Shon Barnes:Yeah, I think so, I think so, I think so, and that's what we settled on. And then, when the protest happened in Salisbury, we not only assisted with traffic without having to be told to do so, and we allowed people to talk and they asked us to kneel with them. That's not going to hurt anyone. We did that, but we also gave our officers an opportunity. Did that, but we also gave our officers an opportunity. And so after each protest, the day after each protest, I should say, we were able to get some really nice gifts of food. And so we brought in the officers before we started the next day and everyone got an opportunity to decompress and to talk.
Shon Barnes:And I'm going to tell you, I saw officers crying because they were upset at people not understanding how important this was. The officers knew we were in a different time period. It felt different than just your usual everyday hey, someone got shot by the police. It felt different, and so we gave everyone an opportunity to decompress. But the George Floyd thing it forever changed policing and I think, unfortunately, in order to do that, someone had to lose their life. Thank you for that.
Steve Morreale:So, as we wind down, there is a question that I want to ask about your experience with the LEADS program, and it is a program that you can better describe than I. That started several years ago when you were, in essence, one of the fellows, a practitioner researcher. Talk about that and that experience that you had and how it influenced you, sure.
Shon Barnes:The National Institute of Justice established a program. They are the research arm of the Department of Justice and the program is called LEADS Law Enforcement Advancing Through Data and Science, and they take mid-level employees who have a passion for using research to solve problems in order to reduce crime and or improve community satisfaction with police services, and I was a part of the 2016 class, I think.
Shon Barnes:I don't know, I don't remember, but honestly it changed my life because it's like you sit in a room with people who are all like-minded and we all have the same experiences. I want to share some of those experiences. One we believe that policing can be changed for the better. Two, we believe that policing can be changed for the better by using evident research and data and by understanding the scientific method. And then, number three, we were all people who our police department at one point considered an outcast. We were those people who would volunteer for special projects, ask questions about products before we implemented them.
Shon Barnes:And we were the people who got on everybody's nerves and commanded, and so we basically developed a community amongst ourselves to share ideas and thought. And you know, some of the best trainings in my professional career being able to sit in a room with Cynthia Lum, being able to sit in a room with Lori Robinson I absolutely love Lori Robinson. I absolutely love Lori Robinson. She is like an amazing person. She co-chaired the 21st Century Task Force on Policing and when I see her, I kind of feel like it's like a second mom to me, because she's so intelligent, you know, and it just gives us an opportunity to advance in our career. Maureen McGough, who was a senior policy advisor Maureen is just amazing.
Shon Barnes:And before it slips out of my mind, the 30 by 30 initiative. I want to talk about that. And so the 30 by 30 initiative is a national initiative that's gotten a lot of support. Now they're at a conference now in DC, but the initiative states that we want to have 30 percent of policing as women by the year 2030, 30 percent, and so across the country, it's about 12 percent of people in the country who are police are female. In Madison, 28 percent of our police force are women and our campaign is called. We Are the 28th and we're working to support them. We're working to make sure that they feel supported and that they understand that they have a great role to play, and we're very, very proud of that. I will tell you that we will be the first department to reach 30%.
Steve Morreale:Well, because you're so close, right, you're almost at the finish line.
Shon Barnes:Hey, it doesn't matter, we're going to be number one. You're right, we're close, but I think we're close to the finish line and when we get there, we want to be able to sustain it, not just get there and say, hey, we're at 30 percent and then five years later we're back to 12 percent. No, we want to sustain that and we want to be able to see that diversity in our leadership rank, in our detective rank and in the rank of officers who are significantly contributing to what we're doing. So that's one of the things that's come out of leads, as well as lifelong friendships with people and just staying current on research so I can better help my police department.
Steve Morreale:So we're talking to Sean Barnes again. He's at Madison, wisconsin, as the chief, dr Barnes, and you know it's interesting. We could talk for an awful lot longer, but you're busy and I'm busy, and so we've got to cut this off in a few moments. But one of the things that strikes me is that, first of all, you have a passion for learning, a passion for passing that on. What troubles me as a pracademic which you would be in that realm is that we call ourselves a profession and yet in many places, all you need is a high school or GED. And so how do we move forward to professionalize and increase the entry level without stepping on people who had been disenfranchised? What's your thought about that, sean?
Shon Barnes:You know, my thought is I don't know that the two are mutually exclusive. I was in the Marine Corps and I was in with people who had high school diplomas, who were amazing leaders and would have made amazing police officers. I think we can create a way to translate your life experience and your continuing education outside of a degree into policing, and I think there are other things that make a particular occupation or profession Number one what is the governing body that says you're doing things the right way? If I'm a dentist, maybe it's the American Dental Association. If I'm a doctor, maybe it's the American Medical Association. What is the equivalent of that for police there?
Intro Outro:isn't one.
Shon Barnes:And so there's no real organization or institution that says you apply the right treatment at the right dosage to solve this problem. That's where it has to begin. If we don't establish that and establish that quickly, either through the federal government or through PERF or through IACP or some other group that we all respect, we can't really call ourselves a profession If we don't commit ourselves to continuing education, and not just in training. Can you pull a gun? Do you know how to use base? No, are you looking at the most current research every year about how to do your job? That's what makes you a profession.
Shon Barnes:And then, most importantly, where's the accountability when police officers can pull their weapon, shoot an unarmed person, resign from their job in lieu of termination and go to another department and start working, we can't call ourselves a professional Because I can't leave a hospital after a malpractice lawsuit after a malpractice lawsuit and go to another hospital in Boston and expect to pick up a scout. The profession won't allow it. So we still have some work to do if we truly want to call ourselves a profession. I believe we are, but we can't call ourselves that until we put into place the things that are necessary to be a profession.
Steve Morreale:So I wrote three things down. There are things that kind of skirt around that you have posts. In some states, police officers stand in training. We have accreditation both at the state and CALEA, in terms of accountability. But what also strikes me is that there is no although they're talking about it, there is no group of people that comes in and does an inspection of the department. How are we doing, what's going on, what are the numbers, those kinds of things. And we have no national police university that could create some national standards. We want local control right. So each state does it differently, Each state trains differently. So we could go on with that for a long, long time. But let me give you the last word Again. We're talking with Sean Barnes as we wind down. He is the chief of police in Madison, wisconsin. He is Dr Sean Barnes, with a specialty in leadership studies about getting into policing. Given what's going on and what the temperament of many people is about policing, should they come in or shouldn't they?
Shon Barnes:They should definitely apply. It has to start there. You have to fill out an application. What I tell people is, if you think you might want to do this job, fill out the application and forget about it when they call you. Now you can make a decision about if you want to move forward, but if you don't put in the application and then six months from now you realize, hey, I think I can do this, you need to make your bed. Why is your? You're going to say who is this person telling me how to operate in my home? But if I'm a part of your, then maybe I have some say in you making your bed. That's just an analogy to say change comes from within. And if you think things could be better and you want to contribute to that, then join.
Shon Barnes:Come to the police department, see what we do, do a ride along, talk to an officer, and what you will find out is that 90% of this job is still relationship and communication, and I think it will always be that. It's one of the most rewarding jobs you will ever have. It's one of the toughest jobs that you will ever have. It will challenge you every day. There's no monotony here. Every day, every call will be something different, and I think that there are a lot of talented people out there women, minorities, people of color who should be police officers. But they have to learn to take that first step, to get over your own fear of what your friends are going to say, what your family is going to say.
Shon Barnes:When you're making good money, that good health insurance and working for a job and you see the respect that you get when you do it right, there's nothing more rewarding than that, and so we are having a big push for recruiting now. We have a program called the MORE Program Multicultural Officers Recruitment Effort and so, if you're interested, go to our website, fill out an application we're trying to have. I am trying to have the first minority majority police academy. First time. I want to have more minorities in our police academy, a multicultural candidate than majority, and I think we can do that. But people have to give us a chance. You can always leave if you don't want. Don't have a contract. We're not your house, but I think if you take that first step, you're going to find that this is a rewarding profession, still a good profession. There's still people here who want to do things the right way and you should come and be a part of that.
Steve Morreale:You're a great salesman, sean Barnes, the chief of police in Madison, wisconsin. I don't know who are going to show up in Madison for you, but, listen, you have been a pleasure to talk with and I would say that one of the things we try very hard to do is to grab hold of some thought leaders, and I would say you're right there at the top, so thank you so much for being here.
Shon Barnes:Thank you, sir, and thank you for having me on. It was a pleasure to meet you and listen to your podcast. And for all my law enforcement leaders and friends, please, you know, listen to the CopDoc podcast. And for me, you know, being a good leader is about surrounding yourself with good thoughts, good thought leaders. And thank you again, doctor, and I can't wait to hear it. Thanks very much.
Steve Morreale:So that's another episode in the can. This is Steve Morreale from Boston. Sean Barnes has been talking to us in Madison, Wisconsin. We'll be back for another episode. Thanks for listening.
Intro Outro:Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Western State University. Please tune into the Cop Doc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.
