Dr. Tanya Meisenholder's Path to Reforming Police Culture

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 7- Episode 147

Dr. Tanya Meisenholder's journey from Baton Rouge to New York City's bustling streets offers a profound perspective on policing. Her experiences, ranging from a crime analyst role and working with ATF, have fueled her passion for reforming law enforcement. In our latest episode, uncover how her transition to the NYPD and current involvement in NYU's Policing Project has reshaped her views on gender representation within the field, particularly through the ambitious 30 by 30 initiative.

The initiative aims to elevate the percentage of female recruits in policing to 30% by 2030, challenging ingrained misconceptions about quotas while advocating for supportive environments where women can excel. Dr. Meisenholder provides an honest look at the obstacles and aspirations tied to this goal, addressing pressing issues like sexism and harassment in law enforcement. Her insights reveal how fostering inclusive cultures and embracing representational bureaucracy can greatly benefit police departments, especially amid current staffing crises.

Shifting the narrative on leadership and diversity, our conversation also delves into progressive policies like job sharing and flexible work schedules that facilitate better integration of women into policing roles. We discuss the transformative impact of new leadership in police departments and the critical role mentorship plays in helping women rise to leadership positions. Join us as we explore how embracing diverse perspectives and innovative policies can pave the way for a more compassionate, community-centered approach to policing.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:02 Promoting Women in Policing
• 9:00 Advancing Women in Policing
• 17:57 Policing, Leadership, and Organizational Change
• 30:42 Diversity and Gender in Policing
• 39:02 Transforming Policing With Leadership and Equity

Transcript

Intro – Outro Announcement

00:02

Welcome to the CopDoc podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:34

Well, hello everybody. Steve Morreale, coming to you again from The CopDoc Podcast, I'm here in Boston, soon to be headed to South Carolina to get out of this cold, but we're both going to be talking from some cold climates. I have Tanya Meisenholder, who is in New York and works at NYU with the Policing Project, on the phone. Hello there. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

00:54

Good morning Steve. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:58

We finally connected. As we said in the beginning, just before we got on. How hard it is sometimes at IACP to connect with people, even that you know, because it's so big. So we finally connected today and what I want to do is so. Tanya is a PhD, she is Dr Meisenholder from SUNY Albany and now at NYU on the policing project, a specific focus on 30 by 30, by trying to bring more women recruits into policing for any number of reasons. So, Tanya, why don't you tell us about your trajectory? You started in Louisiana. How did you end up in New York and tell us the trail along the way? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

01:33

Sure Thanks. Steve Born, and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, went to LSU, as I mentioned, diehard LSU Tigers fan, so any of our college football folks out there that are listening. I got involved in criminal justice because I took a class on IO psychology and I was really fascinated by that and one of the things that's interesting to see right now is how that is being brought into the criminal justice and policing field. And then I went to Birmingham Alabama, pursued a master's. When I was there I started an internship with ATF, so spent some time there and did a lot of work with Dr John Sloan who worked very closely with the Birmingham Alabama Police Department. I then decided to pursue a PhD. I was fortunate to get a scholarship to go to SUNY Albany Otherwise I probably would not have gone that far away from the South and I started the PhD program in 2000. I started working with Dr Rob Worden, dear friend and mentor to me. 

Steve Morreale Host

02:35

I know, I know, Rob. Yeah, I gave him an award a while ago. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

02:39

How nice. And within a couple of months I realized quickly that perhaps academia was not the best path for me. He encouraged me to continue and find what might work well for me in the field. So I started working with him on two projects. One was the Arrestee Drug Abuse Monitoring Program. So we went into jails in Schenectady, Albany and Troy and we gave inmates candy bars to talk to us about their drug use. 

Steve Morreale Host

03:06

Doesn't take much. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

03:09

Doesn't take much. And you know that was an incredible project, which is ultimately what I did my dissertation on. And then I also worked closely with Rob as a crime analyst. He was doing work with those same agencies through DCJS and Upstate New York. So I got heavily invested in the crime analysis space and ultimately became the first crime analyst in Schenectady Police Department. 

Steve Morreale Host

03:34 Did you work with Mark Chairs? 

You interviewed Mark too. It's another small world. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

03:37

I did work with Mark Chaires. Mark was great, and Chief Gerasi at the time, whose son is a police chief now just incredible and really embraced what was in a very evolving field. At that time this is the early 2000s I still wasn't sure if academia was for me and it was partly because I really struggled with the idea of talking about policing without ever experiencing it myself. 

04:02

And I know there's lots of people that do that work, and I appreciate it. I understand that, but for me it was a tough one. Around the same time, I met my husband, who's from Long Island, and decided that he wanted to become a cop. After all, he had become a school teacher, and so he moved back to New York City and became a cop, and I followed shortly thereafter, joining the NYPD in 2007. The plan was never to stay in this area, but plans don't always work out like you expect them to, so kind of an interesting trajectory from Louisiana to Alabama, upstate New York To the big city. 

Steve Morreale Host

04:39

Oh my goodness, to the big city and now I've been here almost 20 years. 

04:44

So you worked your way up to a pretty prominent position in NYPD and I want you to talk about that. But now you're at NYU, New York University, and there is a thing called the Policing Project and it has many different tentacles and yours is 30 by 30. And I certainly understand, and I have been promoting 30 by 30 for a long, long time. I'll tell you, Tanya, if you don't know. One of the things that strikes me is I'm the father of three daughters and none of them went into policing. In my days, when I was in the military police, I was in a company in training. It was in Fort McClellan, Alabama. So there you were, in Alabama, and we were the first company to accept women in policing in 1975, which is so unusual, only five of them. 

05:26

When I came out of the military, I'm just telling you my experience. When I came out of the military, I went home with the hopes of being a police officer in my hometown it happened to be Massachusetts. That never happened. I remember being an auxiliary police officer and driving by and with great disappointment I was watching in 1978, a protest outside the police department and the protest was that the police department had a chief who was pretty well-heeled and not afraid to ask for money from the federal government, and the federal government had given him money for 20 female officers the very first female officers in Massachusetts that were not matron and what was going on? And I'm just telling you the story so you understand the background that I have here. 

It was one of those things where there were women and men out front with signs picketing saying no woman in my husband's cruiser, and then I go to DEA. We have some of the first women and the DEA has a pretty strong number of females in the job, but at that point in time we had five women in 40. Not one of them made it out, and whether it was sexism at the time, I don't know. There were any number of reasons. Somebody didn't shoot well, somebody didn't drive well, somebody stole something, somebody did something untoward. Whatever the reason was, I've sort of lived the addition of females in policing and I can't say enough about it, and so that, I hope, sets the table for what it is that you're attempting to do, both with the Department of Justice and many other people, Yvonne and Mo, and we'll talk about that. So sorry for the diatribe, but I just wanted to get it started. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

07:02

I will say that you mentioned IACP. I had the opportunity to talk about women recruits in policing briefly during the PERF Town Hall and I had a conversation with Chuck Ramsey after just an amazing leader in policing and he said to me he said, Tanya, I just did an interview and they were asking me what is the biggest change that I've seen in policing throughout the course of my career? And I told them women in policing, the introduction of women into the field of policing. So we're going to follow up on that conversation and talk more about his Commissioner Ramsey's experience. So 30 by 30's organizational home is the NYU Policing Project. 

07:38

As you mentioned, NYU Policing Project has several arms. It's led by Barry Friedman and there is a focus there on a number of areas, including technology, legislative change. They do some work with Chicago in terms of neighborhood policing and alternative response. 30 by 30 has been in NYU. They help us really deal with a lot of the bureaucratic and organizational issues. So they really serve that purpose for our organization and Mo McGough, one of our co-founders. She started officially started 30 by 30 with retired chief Yvonne Roman in 2021. And we've been with NYU since then. I would say one of the things that is misconstrued the most about this effort is that people get too caught up on that number. It is a great brand and we've been so fortunate with what has happened with 30 by 30 over the past couple of years. So let me just interrupt. 

Steve Morreale Host

08:40

So 30 by 30, the intended I like the name brand but is by 2030, to improve or enhance the ratio of women recruits in policing to 30%. We're almost there, so I don't know whether you'll meet it or not. It is certainly moving and has the momentum to push you forward. So I'm sorry to interrupt but continue. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

09:00

And I would be specific to police recruits because you know, when you focus on the workforce, it's a little bit more challenging as people are coming and going. It's based on the theory of representational bureaucracy, which indicates that it takes an underrepresented group to get to 30 percent before they can actually make a difference. So, yes, we're trying to increase the representation of female recruits 30% by 2030. I think what people get stuck on is that they think it's a quota or a mandate, and that's not what we're about at all. It's aspirational, it's a goal and it's really about what women bring to policing and the untapped applicant pool that's out there in the midst of a staffing crisis and for me, 30 by 30. At the end of the day, it's about improving the workforce for everyone, especially women. But unfortunately, some of that messaging about what we're trying to accomplish gets lost for some folks. 

Steve Morreale Host

10:00

Well, yeah, and I think when you go back to affirmative action and that and those arguments, I think that's what causes some of the brush and the brouhaha. We're talking Tanya Meisenholder at NYU, the policing project, and we're talking about 30 by 30, among other things. I also want to sort of broach the subject. So let me give you my experience, like once again. So I do a lot of training. I show up there Sometimes I show up. There's events that I show up all over the country, but most especially at Roger Williams and at Liberty University where I am running a command college. But what I find is and I actually said this in two different places a number of people who will show up, usually mid-level managers that are looking for executive development, and I'll walk in and there'll be a group of police sergeants, sometimes 30. 

10:45

And the first thing I'll say is where are the women guys? And I actually said this I'm ashamed to tell you, but maybe I'm not I said this to the group hey, guys, where are the women? And the first response that I got was well, they've got to be qualified. Well, at that moment, you know what I'm thinking. I've worked with many a woman has been a peer, not just a staff member, but somebody who was at my same rank and grade and I've had very few problems, and so I think it's really important. But again, one of the things that I'm troubled by you're saying recruiting. I understand, and you just said something that was amazing, and that is an untapped recruiting pool. But what about the promotion? You know that's a whole different ballgame. But let's go back to what you're doing and how you're looking to achieve that goal. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

11:30

Yeah, thanks for that, Stephen. One thing to be clear is we're not advocating for lowering standards either. So your point about qualified applicants is one that we talk about all the time. We're not looking to have increase the number of women in policing if they're not a good fit or they're not qualified for that job. So we want to be clear about that. 

11:50

And if you think about policing, we have about 18,000 agencies thereabouts. There's 40% of those agencies with no women at all. So many of those agencies are small, they're in rural areas. I don't expect for there to be a large influx of women into some of those places are small, they're in rural areas. I don't expect for there to be a large influx of women into some of those places. And the other thing is we don't want women just to come into policing for the sake of it. They need to be going to agencies that are going to be supportive, that they have opportunities to promote, that they have opportunities to attend training some of what you just mentioned and that are healthy environments for them. So bringing women in just for the sake of bringing them in is not what we're about. And, frankly, there's some police departments out there that aren't healthy enough for us to advocate for women to be part of. 

Steve Morreale Host

12:35

You know, as I'm listening to you, Tanya, it strikes me that while we in the industry talk about racism and bias, there certainly still exists sexism in some places. There's no question about that. I hear it from my daughters and so I understand what you're saying. It has to be the right fit. They have to be receptive to people. It's not about let's come in and I'm going to talk about your boobs or your butt or what, and I'm sorry to be inappropriate, but there has to what you were saying. It has to be what you were saying. It has to be a healthy environment and accepting environment. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

13:06

Yeah, and sexual harassment is very common in police departments. You know we've done I mean it's common in a lot of fields but police department is certainly one where we've talked to a lot of women. We've done a number of surveys, we've looked at the academic research and the number of women who report that sexual harassment is common in police department is very high In some police departments. You know you're talking about 80, 90%. I think what's important to acknowledge is kind of how people define sexual harassment, what that looks like, how it changes for women of color and what the agency is doing in response to it. One of my favorite quotes is you know, an organization is defined by the worst behavior it tolerates. If you think about what that means in the field of policing and look, we both know we see it continuously articles that talk about sexual harassment in policing and what is the impact of that on trying to get women to join the field? 

Steve Morreale Host

14:07

You know, interesting, I just wrote down. My daughter is in leadership in healthcare and one of the things that she was doing some work on and she threw it my way before she pushed it out was tolerance equals acceptance by tolerating it itself, and numbers don't lie. So I'm thinking to myself you know, as yourself, as a PhD, myself with a doctorate we are always looking for questions to answer and studies to get involved in, and it seems to me that there's room I know there's work out there already, quantitative and qualitative, about how people are treated in the field, and that helps to inform us as to what we need to do to sort of change that so that there is equal. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

14:48

You know, we talk a lot about culture change, and what does that mean for people? 

Steve Morreale Host

14:53

Did you just say talk? Did you just sound like you were from New York? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

14:56

No, I did not, but you know, if you think about that and what does it take for that to change in an organization, it's really challenging. One of the things that I have focused on throughout my career has been what I would refer to as kind of the internal quality of life. What are the things that are impacting the employees in the organization? How are they treated? Are they able to speak up? What sort of informal punishment do some people take part in in agencies and that starts really early for some people in the recruitment process in the academy and how do you change that as you move throughout your life cycle? 

Steve Morreale Host

15:43

When you just talked about that and the internal quality of life procedural justice, maybe not the best. 

No, no, no, no but we're also talking about procedural justice and how we are pushing people in the industry to say when you're out looking, you need to act with procedural justice. And I would say it's just as important and you know that that procedural justice be internal also, that we're treating people with respect. If you're going to piss people off, yell and scream at people, why would we be surprised when they do exactly the same thing when they're out on a call? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

16:11

Exactly. I think the term is organizational justice, but something during my time at NYPD. There are some folks that believe management is management by yelling. That will certainly get certain things done and accomplished, but at what cost for those that are in the agency. 

Steve Morreale Host

16:27

So let's go back for a moment about your time in a great organization, the NYPD at very different levels. It seems to me that can I assume you walked into the NYPD with a PhD as a civilian, working at sort of a maybe not an entry, but a mid-level operational position and worked your way up. Talk about that. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

16:49

Sure, so I, when I joined, I joined as an intelligence research specialist, so a crime analyst that was in the intelligence bureau, and I had not finished my PhD yet. It took me a bit of time because I got married and had a child and did all sorts of other things. 

Steve Morreale Host

17:05

Imagine life getting in the way, huh. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

17:07

And NYPD has a great program with their intel analyst. They had not yet really embraced crime analyst. That is something that came much later, during what I refer to as Bratton 2.0. But I had the fortune of starting with some people that are there now that are incredible. Rebecca Wiener, who heads the Intelligence and Counterterrorism Division, and our new commissioner of the NYPD, Jessica Tisch, started as an IRS as well, so I did that for a few years and I worked very closely with our field intelligence officers on drug and gang investigations. So that was an incredible experience for me in terms of learning how they think about investigations and how they approach it and then being able to support them in so many ways. 

17:57

I then had the opportunity this was around the time that Commissioner Kelly was leaving the NYPD and Commissioner Bratton was coming in, so there was a bit of overlap there to work on two large-scale organizational change efforts. One was NYPD 2020, and one was referred to as re-engineering. So for a few years, I was able to learn a tremendous amount about the organization across a range of areas, from union contracts to human resources to training all that. I had spent that time in the police commissioner's office and really thought about how do we make change in an organization, and then what can implementation look like? During that time we created a number of new units too. One was a project management office. So, really thinking about how to do that, we created the force investigation division. That was something that Commissioner Bratton took from LA and brought to NYPD, and then the office of professional development as well. I then had the opportunity to become the chief of staff to first deputy commissioner Ben Tucker incredible man who I learned so much from and that's probably my first foray into politics as well and having a better understanding of his portfolio included a number of bureaus, but the one that I spent a lot of time with was our federal monitor, and you know, as NYPD was under, or still is in, a monitorship. And then I had the opportunity to work closely with some of the researchers that were on the monitors team and really think about how NYPD was using folks and research internally and externally. For many years there wasn't a lot of open doors for people to come in and do research in the department. That changed. So did some work with Anthony Braga on our body-worn cameras, had the opportunity to work with my mentor, rob Warden, colleague Robin Engel on our fair and impartial policing and then all of the things that fell into the portfolio of the first step. So that was training, risk management personnel and our discipline system. So I got to spend a lot of time understanding police discipline from the NYPD's management perspective. I would say that you know it's not lost on me that NYPD is an outlier in many ways, and one of the things that's been so great for me at this point is getting to work with so many other agencies through 30 by 30 and seeing that from a different lens In 2018, I get lost. 

20:26

In the years I became the deputy commissioner of equity and inclusion, I oversaw our EEO division, so I mentioned sexual harassment a few minutes ago, but really thinking about how that process works in the NYPD, we also focused a lot on employee life cycle issues. 

20:42

So, from recruitment to hiring, entry-level training, promotions what were the opportunities, what were the obstacles? Were the processes fair and transparent? That's when I was introduced to 30 by 30 and Mo and Yvonne NYPD was one of the first agencies to join that effort, which won't be lost on you that there's a contagion effect in policing and how important it was to have NYPD as an early adopter. I also worked very closely with our LGBTQ employees, and that was around the time of George Floyd, so we did a number of focus groups and work with our employees after the protest in that space, and then I spent a little bit of time in our training bureau before I left the NYPD about a year ago and so really was able to think about recruit training, what that looks like, how it affects our employees and what that means for field training, and then also investing a lot in our civilian workforce. That's something that I care deeply about as our professional staff as well, having been one for most of my career. 

Steve Morreale Host

21:46

Yeah, that's quite a story, because it seems to me I wrote a few things down that as you move up and move around, you realize in many cases that while you're not political, you are, you have to adapt to the political landscape. 

There are socio-political risks that go on and part of what you're talking about is identifying issues that can create some liability and cause some risk and then to try to figure out how do we address that, to try to nip that in the bud, to help people understand this is not tolerable behavior. These are the things we have to do. This is not profession, it's those kinds of things. And so you went in my mind from a micro view being an intelligence to a macro view and in some cases you're coming back to a micro view again, right, if you think about that, because you're focusing on 30 by 30. 

And I think that's interesting and I'll tell you, as I hear you talk about IRS, the intelligence research specialist, my time at DEA, I didn't know what the hell. I had come from a police department and before that, military police and didn't have any of that. And DEA did, as you well know, and as the FBI and ATF and certainly your agency does. So you know, having New York as an early adopter, not that they don't still have problems. You know we're watching some things in the news that don't look nice right now, but it looks like the commissioner is saying here's the new line on the sand. We're going to get professional. We're not going to accept some of the behavior that has kind of percolated here or there. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

23:09

Yeah, two points. You know your point about the IRS. My first team was a strike force team with DEA agents, so that was an incredible experience for me, learning from them, and they were also adapting to having civilians on their teams as well the dreaded civilians Let me speak to that. 

Steve Morreale Host

23:26

The civilianization of police departments is extremely important. It's so resistant in mid to small agencies because they think police the unions want. We want to be PIO, we want to be the intelligence person we want it's that's so unnecessary and, in my mind, so misplaced when there are so many specialists that could come in as civilians. So misplaced when there are so many specialists that could come in as civilians as professional staffs and augment these agencies. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

23:50

As civilianization is such a complicated topic and I'm really excited. Right now I'm working with the University of Virginia on a civilian leadership course that's going to take place in April, so it's the first that I'm aware of that's going to bring together. I'm working with Ben Yep, so really excited about that event, and I had a recent police chief article about civilians in leadership. 

Steve Morreale Host

24:12

I read it. I read it. I didn't think it was that good, but I did read it. I'm teasing, I'm teasing.

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

24:15

Oh thanks, 

But I do think, you know, I did a little cutout with Tawana Moody, who was one of the first civilian leaders of an organization in Jersey, and I think what is happening right now in the NYPD putting aside some of the more complicated stuff is that people are really questioning whether Commissioner Tisch can lead that organization effectively. As someone who's never had sworn experience and, you know, knowing her a little bit and having the opportunity to work with her, I think she's going to do a lot of incredible things. To turn to deal with some really challenging issues that are happening in the NYPD. You know I think about policing in many ways and some, some, some folks don't agree with me and that's, that's just fine, but it's a, it's a business. 

Steve Morreale Host

25:11

I was just, you know. Excuse me for interrupting. I want to put my two cents in here because I know, when I do executive development, I even ask people who are sergeants, lieutenants, captains, what about the budget? They have no clue whatsoever because the chief keeps that to themselves. But the reality is that it is a business and I think that somebody with a business sense like Jessica Tisch could be very, very valuable. So time will tell, but I think I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're right, it is a business, so continue with that thought. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

25:41

It is. It's a business with a brand, with competitive edge, with all of these different things that people don't necessarily think about, and so I think that gets lost on a lot of folks. So when you think about the leadership at any agency in my mind, Jessica Tisch, it's for her. It's running a business and she's going. She's got a lot to deal with right now. 

If you're paying attention to the news, you know there's a number of things that are coming out that probably are not exactly what she wanted to walk into, but I have a lot of faith that she will do a lot of good things in the NYPD and I think it's important to acknowledge that sometimes you need someone from the outside to come in to be able to turn that around, Because when you're in a police department for a long time and I'm sure you recognize this you become in many ways institutionalized, so it can be hard to make change if you grew up in that institution. 

Steve Morreale Host

26:37

It's very hard to operate when you've got friends and colleagues, and I must say that that strikes me too as I travel. So many are one-trick ponies, and I don't mean that they don't love their communities, and I'm not just talking about New York. It could be Schenectady, be Albany, it could be Boston, Massachusetts only looking at it from one land, and that causes problems and not having somebody come in. The reason you'll resist me because I don't want somebody who doesn't understand this agency didn't grow up in the agency. Policing is policing, I'm sorry to say, but it sounds to me like Commissioner Tisch is watching what's happening and saying I got to nip this in the bud. We're not going to tolerate this. I'm resetting the standard. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

27:17

I think that's right. She's the person to do that because she has no qualms about. As long as the one thing I'll say I read an article from Commissioner Bratton and as long as the mayor allows her to do what she needs to do, then I think she will be very effective. So far from what we can tell, it appears like that's happening, but she has no problem identifying an issue and making change, and she does it swiftly and with a lot of certainty. So I think the story of the NYPD and what they're going through right now is to be continued, but I think she's the right person at the right time to change some of what needs to change in that organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

27:58

So I have the pleasure of talking to Dr Tanya Meisenholder, who is at NYU the Policing Project and oversees Gender Equity Project, known as 30 by 30. And Department of Justice right is one of the sponsors, but you've got many other sponsors, people who have signed on. Talk about that. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

28:17

Sure. So we officially launched in March of 2021, and now we have about 400 agencies who have committed to doing the work, with 30 by 30. And, as I indicated earlier, it's not just about increasing the representation. It's really about understanding the experiences of people in your agency and women more broadly in policing, about what you're doing to recruit personnel, what your policies look like around any number of items, but certainly those that are unique to women in policing. So if you think of maternity policies, et cetera, and are your processes fair? Are people being held back in certain places? And then your strategy. 

So we work closely with a number of agencies to think through what some of these issues are and how to address them. 

The other thing that we are focused on is state-level legislation. So thinking about how we can influence some of these issues at the state level and perhaps it's not legislation, it could be through the post, could be through an individual agency, but what are the issues that really need to be focus area at this time? As you mentioned, we're fortunate to have a number of agencies who work with us, and then we also have several partners in the field. So some of the organizations in policing the PERFs, the NPI you know all of those folks and we work closely with other women-centered organizations WIFL, women in Federal Law Enforcement, NAWLE, Kim and their executive board and so we're focused on a couple of areas education and advocacy about why it's important to have women in policing, the research that supports that, very much focused on ensuring that we have an evidence base. I think that when you think about the future of policing, that's really a direction, that an area that needs more attention. I should say, and you know, what can we do to make the policing workplace better for everyone. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:24

So how does Tanya and 30 by 30 and NYU begin to almost set the agenda or point people in the direction to say, hey, here's a question we need answered. Hey, here's a little research that has to happen? So please note that before I take you down, I'm a good one for compound questions. 

My apologies, I know I am guilty of that, but I heard you say earlier about policies and certainly one of the things that while I was in Ireland, a Fulbright at University of Limerick and the Garda College - is Garda themselves now have policies where they allow job sharing, that it's not unusual for a woman who is childbearing, that has parental responsibilities, sometimes breastfeeding responsibilities, whatever that might be to say, look, we shouldn't just throw the baby out that's a very bad term. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know why can't we use this trained person to come back and do job sharing? What do you mean? A part-time police officer? It's those kinds of things that have to break the mold, you know, break the stodgy old time view of police policy and the way we accept rather than handled, accept women into the work. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

31:33

I'm glad you raise that. It brings up an area that's aligned to that. If you think about what happened around the attempted assassination of former President Trump, soon to be the next president, again, there was a lot of rhetoric around women in policing that came out and there was a number of folks that said women don't belong in policing. They don't belong in policing because it's too dangerous, because that's not women's place. I couldn't disagree more with that idea, because I think they have a very valuable role. 

They do and that was really hard for us to watch. And you know, in our work and supporting women in policing, we put out a letter kind of talking about the issues around that and what we saw. That was so harmful and so untrue with what some people were saying. You know, I've worked with so many women cops and I know through our agencies and they are really incredible. But it would be disingenuous for me not to talk about some of the issues that they have faced in policing, whether it's when joining the police force or during their time there. And I will say that not everyone's experience is the same. I've talked to some females who have had incredible careers and haven't had the same experiences of others, but we've talked to a number of others who share in their experiences that are less than optimal. So the idea that women don't belong in policing it's really unbelievable in some ways that we're having this conversation now in 2024, the very end of it. 

Steve Morreale Host

33:10

And there's so many studies that say that women pose less risk to an agency because they are calmer, they are more nimble, they are more conversational, they can deescalate. I mean, it goes on and on and on, and sometimes that's the person. I want my hip to give me a different perspective so that it's not the macho going in there I'm going to kick somebody's ass. But let's talk this through, let's calm this down, and so there's such value. You know, I wrote down many, many minutes ago when you talked about IO psych, industrial, organizational psych, and how that had a role, and it seems to me that this is a part. What you're talking about is a direct application of what we're talking. How do we assimilate, how do we better utilize, how do we better understand gender differences? And okay, there's going to be conflict, but how do we overcome that conflict and how do we allow women in policing to be complimentary? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

34:02

You know I do some work with Jen Renier from RTI and she's in the IO psych field and you know there is definitely a move to embrace more of that. You know, I think gender differences is a good way to frame it. If you think about what women, how they're different in terms of policing you noted some of it de-escalation, use of force, fewer complaints they may have better outcomes for crime victims and when you think about where policing is going, what do we envision that the future of policing is going to look like? Is it going to continue to be a space where there's a lot of running and gunning and all of these different things, or is it going to be more compassionate, empathetic, really protecting the people that we serve? And there's a lot of people who certainly don't envision it in the latter and that's not what they want, and I think that's why they push back on the idea of women in policing. 

34:53

You know there was a study that was done by Dr Robin Engel in Colorado Springs, so it needs some replication perhaps and further evaluation. But one of the things that they found was that in this particular study, during use of force incidents, women got injured more. Not a big surprise, isn't the one that we really were hoping to see, because then in some ways that validates what people think that women don't belong in policing. But my point is, when they dug further, holding all these other things constant, it went to yes, they used less force, they were injured more, but what it came down to was the type of less lethal weapon that they were using. So women in this study were more inclined to use a taser. 

So this, to me, speaks to if you aren't focused on gender differences and thinking about the policy and the training implications of those, there could be any number of things that we're missing when we talk about that. You know, and there's so much focus on officer safety and wellness and there should be. But how do women cope differently in policing? We know that there's some indications that they might have more stress, but we also know that research indicates that they might be more inclined to look for, take advantage of available resources. So when you think about this huge area in policing, it's important to think about gender in all of these terms. 

Steve Morreale Host

36:15

Also, I think and I had just talked to Jim McCabe about this podcast, and that is that has been dragged into more mental health calls or social service needs. What it does point to at least get blamed for all because they're the 24-7 showing up and why didn't you do something? The reality is that we as a society have not allowed or demanded the social service agencies to make themselves available at times of need, so police end up stepping in, which is crazy, I think. So social services becomes really important. So, Tanya Meisenholder, tell me this you do a lot of traveling, you do a lot of selling, you do a lot of many years and in order for policing to continue, to improve and transform, then you have to think about the diversity of your workforce. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

37:16

Diversity, equity, inclusion you know dirty words for some folks, but when you have people in an organization that have a different way of thinking, then they will make the organization better. And why wouldn't you want an organization where people feel valued and heard and like they can contribute in that organization? A healthy organization is one where your folks are going to show up, they're going to do better and that means they're going to treat your communities better. 

Steve Morreale Host

37:47

Well. So what you're suggesting, too, is that allow different perspectives, because it will help your station grow. But I'll also say so you're sitting in front of a bunch of people Now. This is not meant to be derogatory, but I want you to defend yourself. You're not a cop, Tanya, what the hell do you know about policing? I know the answer, but how do you defend that? How do you counter that? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

38:11

Yeah, but how do you defend that? How do you counter that? Yeah, I've been asked that before, sometimes in a less pleasant way than you just asked me. But I have spent my career since I started my master's program back in 1996, focused on police. I'm married to a cop, I work with cops, I love policing and I spent over 20 years as professional staff. But I think it's the passion, the care that makes it different. So, yeah, I never carried a weapon, but it's not like I wasn't. 

Steve Morreale Host

38:37

I've been around a long time, I know I can see that. But no, no, no, you understand. You just explained it. I know I was playing devil's advocate. I don't feel that way at all. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

38:46

But you know, sometimes I've been asked is it more difficult for you throughout your career, having been a woman or a civilian? And I said frankly, it depends on the day. If you were going to force me into an answer, I would say a civilian. 

Steve Morreale Host

38:59

That's quite the interesting contrast. I like that. So, as you walk on down the road and you keep plugging away and you keep sort of being the flag waver for 30 by 30, which in essence is more women in police roles, where do you stand with hope for the future? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

39:18

I think there's a growing number of people and I think we're seeing some police agencies with some new leadership that really make me think about what's possible in transforming. 

So Jessica Tish in NYPD, Tarrick McGuire in Virginia, Shon Barnes just going to Seattle so this kind of new leadership that is exciting in many ways to think about what that means for improving the workplace and what it ultimately means for all of the folks that are out there that are depending on the police to help them work through their challenges. 

So I am hopeful. I am also hopeful that more people will understand the value of what women bring to policing and will continue to have those conversations and talk about what barriers exist. And then, as you mentioned, some really difficult things like part-time work, flexible options. If we don't make some changes in that space, then we're going to continue to have the same sort of recruitment issues that we have now, because the generation that's entering policing today does not want the same things and they are not going to accept the same type of organizational structure. So if we want to change policing some of those things that folks really push hard against it's not possible the way we've always done it. Whatever the case may be, people are going to have to think really hard about how to be creative in that space. 

Steve Morreale Host

40:45

Yeah, as a professor in CJ and seeing mostly seniors and graduate students, there's less interest in serving. In fact I would say I've been at this. So I mean I've got 50 years, 30 years, 20 years in higher education and I can tell you when I first started I'd say 50% of the students tops in a CJ program that might be 20%. And even among that 20% they're not sure they want it the way it exists. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

41:09

Yeah, and how many. I've talked to a number of people over the past couple of past year or so who've said a lot of the folks in CJ programs now are women. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:17

Oh my goodness, we're at 50 to 60%, which unto itself should tell you something. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

41:22

It should, and I think you really have to think carefully about that, but you know. Back to your question for a minute. What do I want people to know, too, is I want them to understand what we're truly about and what we're trying to accomplish, and we have some work to do about that. We talk about recruitment and retention and the challenges with that. If you have an environment that is a place where people want to work, then you're going to have less of a retention problem. If you have where people want to work, then you're going to have less of a retention problem. If you have less of a retention problem, then you don't need to recruit as much. I mean, it's cyclical in many ways. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:56

And the last thing is while you may be focusing on recruiting, what I think is important are when people come into the business. And, by the way, this isn't just police. What I mean to say municipal or state police agencies, that also includes federal agencies. And when I left DEA to go to HHS, the workforce with the inspector general's office was maybe 50 or 60% investigator women, criminal investigators females. I just wonder how those who come in can come in with a mindset that I can not only be a police officer, I can climb the ladder and help to provide leadership in this organization. You know how do we move that needle forward? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

42:34

Yeah, I think we have to think about some of the issues that hold people back from advancing in their organization, whether it's the opportunities, whether they're self-selecting out. We talk about the percent of women in law enforcement, but if you look at the percent of women in leadership positions in law enforcement, 3% police leaders are women. So how do you get people to really think about what it means to be a leader and what are the different reasons that people move up in an organization? We need to do more work in that space. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:05

And whatever voice I lend to this whole conversation, I'll say to people as you move up, find a mentor and be a mentor, and one of the suggestions I would offer to those who are listening is don't just look for somebody like yourself to mentor. Find someone who is different than you. Find somebody maybe a different gender than you and help bring them along. And some of the people I've interviewed I think of Kristen Zeman, among others, and Kathy O'Toole and Karin Best. I think of a number of people that I've gotten to interview who have said my mentor was a guy. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

43:37

I would echo that. You know, the vast majority of the mentors that I have had in my career were men and unsurprising given the field that I'm in, and I think mentorship is really important and I'm thankful for the folks that do it well. It's a complicated topic at times in terms of what someone needs and what someone wants in that relationship, assuming that you're talking about the one-on-one. I've also seen some incredible work being done. I mean in mentorship with Nolly and some other police departments who were really embracing that as well. 

Steve Morreale Host

44:09

And what came to mind as we wind down was policing is complicated, policing is difficult, policing is dangerous and very often you see people who would rather go towards danger than to deal with issues like we're talking about right now. Leave me in the field. I'm not worried about industrial organizational psychology or gender differences, right? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

44:31

Yeah, and I'm glad you acknowledged that. Certainly, policing is a difficult job, right, but it should be no more difficult for a woman than it is for anyone else. There are a number of folks out there who have a very specific way of how they think about policing in the field and, as I mentioned, you know, I'm thankful that we have some other thought leaders that are coming on board and hopefully that will change over the course of time, I mean every day. 

Steve Morreale Host

44:54

I look on LinkedIn and there's somebody who says I joined, I joined, so you're having an impact, the three of you and I know it's not just you, Mo and Yvonne, there are so many others who are behind you and I appreciate it. We're talking to Dr Tanya Meisenholder and she's at New York University in the Policing Project. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

45:14

Tanya how do people get in touch with you? So if you go to the 30 by 30 website, there's an email address there. You can certainly email that and you're more than likely to get a response from me. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Send me a message there. I'm always happy to connect. It's important for me to listen and learn from other folks and I'm really thankful that you had me on today. It's such a great conversation and I look forward to talking to more folks that are really thoughtful about the change we need in policing. 

Steve Morreale Host

45:40

One more question that comes up what's the impact that you think? I think we are behind the times when compared to some other countries. So where is it that 30 by 30 is looking to understand how other countries have evolved? 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

45:53

Yeah, great question. And there are a number of other countries that have much higher percentages of women in policing. I think you really have to think about the context in which those locations operate. And you know one big thing, you know this some of these countries cops don't carry firearms. Policing is different. So you have to consider all of that. But I think a lot of it speaks to the organizational culture in United States policing and what allows women to excel in other countries that we don't have here. So we do spend a lot of time thinking about that and talking about what that means. And some people will say to us we think it should be 50% and we're like look, we're just trying to. 

We're just trying to make it a better place, but we can learn a lot from other countries in terms of what gender equity looks like in their organizations, and we'll continue to do that. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:47

What a great conversation with another thought leader. I appreciate talking to you, Tanya. Thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. 

Tanya Meisenholder Guest

46:54

Thank you for having me. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:55

My pleasure. Well, there you go, everybody. There's another episode of the CopDoc podcast in the can. I want to thank you all for listening. We're approaching more than 80 countries, 3,000 cities, which is just amazing, and I rely on you to point me to people you think be beneficial to talk to, those who are progressive, are moving the needle forward, are trying to change the culture and provide great service because of the importance of policing in America and abroad. Thanks very much. Enjoy the day, stay safe very much. Enjoy the day. Stay safe.

Intro – Outro Announcement

47:31

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester  State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.