The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
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The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
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The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
SAC Jim Ferguson - Teamwork, Technology, and Violent Crime: How ATF Keeps America Safer
The CopDoc Podcast - Episode 150
What does it take to lead one of America's premier federal law enforcement agencies? Jim Ferguson, Special Agent in Charge of ATF's Boston Field Division, takes listeners inside the world of federal firearms investigations, leadership challenges, and the evolution of crime-fighting technology in this compelling conversation.
Ferguson's unexpected journey began when an aptitude test suggested "federal agent" as his ideal career path after three unfulfilling years studying engineering. That pivotal moment led to a thirteen-year assignment in Chicago, where he cut his teeth investigating firearms trafficking patterns among the 10,000-15,000 crime guns recovered annually. Working alongside Chicago police officers, he developed a deep appreciation for the collaborative relationships between federal and local agencies that would later define his leadership approach.
Now overseeing ATF operations across all six New England states, Ferguson reveals the dual nature of ATF's mission - both investigating firearms crimes and ensuring regulatory compliance within the industry. He shares remarkable insights into how technology has transformed investigations, with ballistics analysis now delivered within 48 hours instead of the years it once took, providing crucial intelligence during the critical window after violent crimes.
Perhaps most compelling is Ferguson's leadership philosophy, shaped by both professional experience and personal challenges. Having received a compassionate transfer to care for his father during a terminal illness, he approaches personnel decisions with genuine empathy, recognizing that career moves impact entire families. This human-centered approach extends to his management style, where he emphasizes listening to agents in the field while providing clear direction and mentoring future leaders.
Join this fascinating conversation to understand the complexities of federal law enforcement, the importance of interagency partnerships, and the leadership lessons learned across a distinguished career dedicated to public safety. Whether you're interested in law enforcement, leadership development, or the technological evolution of crime-fighting, Ferguson's insights offer valuable perspective from inside one of America's most specialized federal agencies.
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If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc podcast.
Steve Morreale:Hey everybody. Steve Morreale here, coming to you from rainy but generally sunny South Carolina, and I'm headed back up to Boston, my hometown, to talk to Jim Ferguson, who is the special agent in charge of the Alcohol, tobacco, firearms and Explosives Agency. He is in charge of the Boston Field Division, which handles New England. He and I have worked together many years ago and now he's the hot shot, the big shot. I want to say hello there, jim. How are you? Very well, how about yourself Hanging in there? Thank you so much for making this happen and I think, for the many people who listen, don't always get a chance to talk to somebody who's working at the federal level and I'd like you to tell us how you got into policing Lauren.
Jim Ferguson :So ultimately for me it was a change in my college career that sort of brought some of this forward. I was thought to be an engineer. I went to an engineering school and after three years I realized I hated it. And so I went to an engineering school and after three years I realized I hated it. And so I went to my local guidance counselor and they offered me a test, to take an aptitude test, and it would provide you with a list of career choices that it thought were you were best suited for. And ultimately, you know, after the battery of tests, my list comes out and number one on the list was federal agent, and it was sort of an epiphany for me to make some changes. So I changed my career or my career path, got an internship with customs, which is actually, I think, when you and I first met back in the day and then really started to look at that path forward on the federal agent career path and what I needed to do to make that happen.
Jim Ferguson :Where'd you go to school?
Steve Morreale:UMass Lowell. Okay, so, Umass Lowell, did you finish your engineering degree? I did not, no, so you went somewhere else.
Jim Ferguson :I mean, you finished up doing something else, right, I did, I just changed my major and I stayed at UMass, switched campuses and ultimately changed over to criminal justice.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, so you went from the main campus over to the river campus or the south campus and did CJ. Well, that's great, that's great, and here you are. So let's talk a little bit about what that means. So you apply to become a federal agent. Takes time you finally get in. You went down to FLETC, I assume for training, right, yes? And then where were you stationed?
Jim Ferguson :So my first post of duty was Chicago. You know, never set foot in Chicago before, but you know, back at those times when you applied at your home office, it was really sort of an unwritten rule that you did not stay in that office. So I was fully expecting to leave but had never stepped foot in Chicago and then spent my next 13 years out there, which was great. That's a great town and certainly busy. Right, kept you busy. It's a great place to learn the job. Certainly that's a great town and certainly busy. Right, kept you busy.
Steve Morreale:It's a great place to learn the job, certainly plenty of things to do, and that's what happened. I went to Newark, where I had never been, and in New York all of the time, and if you can't learn how to do, how to apply your trade there, or Chicago, the major cities, I don't know where you can. So what kind of work were you doing out there and who did bring you in contact with in terms of, I think you and I talked about it a few minutes ago, and one thing about DEA and ATF is that we are very often working with state, local, county officials and we bring the federal view to it. But how did that work out for you? Was that a great training ground for you, a training opportunity to work with the locals?
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, it was fantastic, I mean for me my first day on the job. I was assigned to a task force with the Chicago Police Department and we worked out of gang and narcotics section and there was a team of us that worked together looking at firearms trafficking patterns and back then they were taking in anywhere between 10,000 to 15,000 guns each year crime guns. So it really gave us a large swath of opportunity to look at the various illegal trafficking patterns that were going on. And then what really was of interest to me was where those guns were being used and how to actually get from the point of sale or the origin of that firearm and take it through the gang or the individual that was creating some of the violence on the street.
Steve Morreale:So you stayed there for 13 years. What caused you to leave? Was it time to move on? Time to come home? Time to get promoted? What was the impetus for?
Jim Ferguson :that, yeah, I think what happens to a lot of us in federal careers is we have aging parents and ultimately I had a father that contracted cancer and it was an opportunity for me to come home and spend his last few months with him and take him to his appointments. I promoted in Chicago probably a new supervisor only about a year before I transferred back here as a first line supervisor.
Steve Morreale:So in essence it was a compassionate transfer I presume that's what we used to call it and a horrible reason to come back, but to be, to be there in his last days. That's a memory that you'll cherish the rest of your life For sure. So here you are back home by happenstance, and what did you begin to see as the difference?
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, I mean, listen, as far as crime I mean, it all sort of culminates in the same way. The difference is the scale of things, and oftentimes you know who's who in the zoo is obviously very different, and so it's one of the things we're getting to know the local gangs and who the creators of violence are, and the trafficking patterns here in Massachusetts are clearly far different than they were in Chicago, but very similar in the sense that Chicago or Illinois had a lot of firearms laws, as does Massachusetts, and so the predominant influence for that is guns coming from outside the state.
Steve Morreale:Well, one of the things that strikes me is that when you get into these cases and you walk into a local police department obviously Boston, the big one here in New England and you start talking about who's your pain in the ass, what are you looking at? Who are you not able to get? What are you seeing? And then you bring in the might and the power of the federal government, federal funding and also using the US Attorney's Office to put a great deal of pressure. How does that help to build relationships with local police, to kind of help solve their problems that they have not been able to put their arms?
Jim Ferguson :around For local departments, they're constantly at a point where they've got far more work than they have resources to deal with it and, as far as their personnel having the ability to dig down into cases, sometimes they're just limited by resources and so having that supplement of the federal government to come in and really focus on what our expertise is In ATF's case it's firearms and so being able to utilize the resources that we bring to the table to focus solely on that problem, I think it really is a force multiplier that benefits both agencies.
Steve Morreale:Well, I think that's a partnership that's really very important, and my guess is that as you or your agents come in, you're coming in as a part, not as some agency that is superior, and we're in charge that. You know that jurisdictional vanity is really unnecessary. Fair statement.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, and, quite frankly, it's really not the one or the other, it's the combination. That is the magic right. We have the information from the state and locals, which is literally what's going on on the street, real time, and then you bring in the resources of the federal government to focus and devote resources to one sole problem, and running that to ground really provides that robust task force environment that really roots out the problem and deals with it in an effective way.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, you dig deeper, right, and you so talk about the office You're now in charge of the Boston office. Dea called it the New England Field Division. You are the Boston Field Division, but you have all of New England. How does that play out? By the way, we're talking to Jim Ferguson, the special agent in charge of ATF in Boston, and talk about the different components of ATF. I mean, certainly there are agents, but you have other elements. Help people understand that.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, so essentially what ATF is comprised, as is a compliance side, which is essentially what does the regulatory authority for both federal firearms licensees and fire federal explosives licensees, and so that entity they're working with the industry to ensure compliance in the industry. And then we have our law enforcement side, which deals in the law enforcement world.
Steve Morreale:And at one point in time. Well, first of all, there's been a change in the agency. You were with Treasury, you got brought to justice, you're with justice now and over time, you started to focus on fires, obviously, and explosives.
Jim Ferguson :Talk about that element fires, obviously, and explosives Talk about that element Our offices, because of our history and where we were born, from the explosives and arson. We're the only federal agency that actually has arson jurisdiction. And again, what ATF is focused on is violent crime. Those are really the big baskets. When you look at violent crime, look at firearms, explosives and arsons, those are really sort of the big buckets that we have federal authority on. That also impact the public in a significant way.
Steve Morreale:Without giving away the ranch. What's the size of your offices? You have offices in the six states. Some are smaller than others resident agencies. Try to help people understand how ATF is comprised. Not so much the assets are, but I know having worked at DEA and HHS. Some offices we had two, some offices we had 10, some offices we had 100. How does it work out in?
Jim Ferguson :your world. So, as far as our composition and all of this is online, so it's pretty well public. We've got five criminal offices here in Massachusetts, two criminal offices in Connecticut and then one criminal group for every other state in New England, comprised of Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. The footprint for our compliance size is much smaller than that. We only have three groups total and those three groups exist in two in Massachusetts and one in Connecticut, and those cover all of New England. And so, if you look at it from a perspective of number of employees to ensure compliance, you're looking at thousands of FFLs and FELs throughout the New England region and we've got roughly 25 compliance individuals that work with that?
Steve Morreale:Yeah, not very many. And in terms of agents, you've got different groups. Are there specialties?
Jim Ferguson :We do have specialties, the way we've combined our groups now. We no longer used to be back in the day we'd have a bomb and arson squad that only focused on bomb and arsons. But as things started to change in the environment for what we covered and really some of the blurred lines with explosives and firearms and the reason I bring that up is oftentimes our canines our explosive canines are there for the detection of explosives, but they're also capable of identifying the explosives that are used in firearms, and so they're used, and so those resources were no longer solely for the bomb and arson squad. So we've got a variety in New England of both certified explosive specialists, bomb techs, as well as certified firearms investigators.
Steve Morreale:That's crazy. So one of the things you know, the podcast focuses on innovation leadership. You certainly have had experience working for people who approach the job in a different way. I think there's generational differences in leaders, and you came in and you watched as a supervisor and that is an ASAC, I suppose, and now as the special agent in charge. How many are there in the country SACs? We have 25. So it's a very small number of 25. And let's talk about the Ferguson approach. I'm not talking about the city, by the way, yes, but the Ferguson approach to running meetings and to engaging others in the conversation around the table. What do you do now? That helps to draw people in and seek new ideas and seek to understand how do your meetings go.
Jim Ferguson :So I think one of the most important things you can do in a meeting is listen right. Ideally, whatever I do is not necessarily the value add that everyone sees for ATF. It's what my agents and industry operations investigators do. That work on the ground is really where ATF. It's what my agents and industry operations investigators do. That work on the ground is really where ATF gets its reputation, and so that's the backbone of what this agency is and our value add to not only our community as a whole, but certainly our law enforcement community.
Jim Ferguson :So it's very important for me to listen and understand where our problems are and where are, quite frankly, also not only our problems but also where our strengths and, quite frankly, are the benefits that we bring, so that I can do a better job at highlighting and bringing awareness to the good things that all the groups do and essentially you prevent one.
Jim Ferguson :You know that's something that you can't necessarily tabulate, but are really impactful when you look at the community and public safety as a whole. So I need to have my ear to the ground. So it's very important for me that I am a good listener, but I also need to have vision and direction for where I so that people have an understanding of what it is that I believe is success and, ultimately, where I think our resources are best suited. But again, part of that is a dialogue to come in and just simply give the hard line. This is what we're going to do. There's a time and place for that. But as far as in general, it's very important and I think more important to listen so you can truly understand what's impacting your agency.
Steve Morreale:I think, as leaders too, we have to pay attention no different than the agency did for you when you had an issue with your dad that they listened and they didn't have to. They say, well, fly back and forth when you have to, but we need you here, and I suppose that treatment of you by your predecessor bosses must play a role when you're talking to people who are facing some difficulty. Is that a fair statement?
Jim Ferguson :Without a doubt. I mean empathy is a tremendous tool and, ultimately, having an appreciation for what that means, having been gone for 13 years. When my dad got sick, I saw him twice a year and so my kids saw him twice a year, and so that was really important for me to spend the end of his life with him and to be able to have my kids to have that opportunity, and that's absolutely something that I want to pay forward. If I can help anyone to get to that situation, because it's part of the job. It's what we've all done. We get up, we leave, we start our post of duties elsewhere, but people need to recognize that families are the backbone of everything that we do. The job is just part of it.
Steve Morreale:Need to recognize that families are the backbone of everything that we do. The job's just part of it. Yeah, I like to hear that. I'm thinking for a moment. One mass hole talking to another. If most people won't understand, that's what we're called sometimes, Not an asshole, but a mass hole? Yes, yes, and I mean that in the nicest sense, but nonetheless, when you were in Chicago, were you dragged into that crazy frenzied city focusing on their professional teams, or did you remain a Bostonian? Oh, no, no, I always remained a Bostonian.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, and I. Any chance that I got, I promoted all the sports teams here, and you know, especially with Chicago because they have that rivalry we do. 1986 Super Bowl, which you know to date myself a little bit, was one of the first team meetings that we had at one of the task force officers sergeant's house. And we're in there and he says, hey, push play on the VCR. That's how long ago it was. And sure enough in his VCR was the 1986 Super Bowl.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, let's, let's start this conversation right.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, I'm well aware how this game ended.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, we don't have to revisit it. I like it. I like it. Chicago is a great city. Let's talk about you and your own development. Do you feel that the organization got you ready for the next step? You know you want to become a group supervisor. You go to some training, you become an ASAC. Maybe you go to some training, become a SAC and you're now in a very small group of people 25 in the entire country. How did you find your way to find your leadership style and approach?
Jim Ferguson :Honest, I would have to say that I just fell into it. You know, again, I never got into this job to do this job. I came into ATF to be an agent, to do, you know, investigations, not to be a boss. And so, quite frankly, if you were to ask the 25 years ago version of myself, I would have told you you were out of your mind. If you would tell me that I was, I'd be here, because this is not what my career aspirations were. I was very, very happy being an agent very much like the casework, probably the best time in my professional career.
Jim Ferguson :But the opportunities came down the pike. First one was to promote to get back home. Being promoted in Chicago gave me a better shot at being able to transfer back to Boston. And then there's a very defined career path in the government right. So there's agent first line supervisor, ASAC, and then choice of headquarters, time where you wanted to do that. And then, once you're halfway down that road, it's better to continue down that road so that you can that more beneficial for you in retirement.
Steve Morreale:Let's talk about developing others. How important is mentoring, coaching and developing others? I think it's the most important.
Jim Ferguson :I mean, if I'm doing a good job, the people that are sitting at the ASACs or the group supervisors, those should be the people that take my place. How?
Steve Morreale:do you identify people like that? What are you watching? Is there something that you, as a leader, see in others, where you begin to coach them and develop them and kind of push them along, provide some opportunities for them to be tested and opportunities for training and such?
Jim Ferguson :Again, one of the most important things I think about being a leader is knowing your organization, and so one of the things that I have done on a routine basis is, when you see those people, that number one have the talent to do it and an interest, is to provide the opportunities that really round them out and allow them to understand the agency as a whole and getting a chance to see how the different directorates interact, getting to see and immerse themselves in headquarters details that will give them that line of sight to see the agency and, quite frankly, our mission in a different way and how some of the mundane things that the division or headquarters asks them to do they get to see. On the other side of that, why, where does that information go and why is it important and who is it important to? And so that to me, is definitely part of the grooming process is getting them to understand more about the agency so they're better suited to make decisions down the road so you touched on something.
Steve Morreale:I think that's important and there's so many times, I suppose, that you've been told we want to put you here, or we want to put you here, want to put you here, and you go kicking and screaming because you're very comfortable where you are and in some cases it's about helping you become comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's sort of. It's almost that. To me it's the test, it's the litmus test of whether or not people can function beyond the old Peter Prince or beyond where they are comfortable. Yeah, so talk about that a little bit. I see a little smirk on your face. You know what I'm talking about.
Jim Ferguson :I think that that fits perfectly for my career. I got back to Boston and here I was, back home and thought that this was where I was going to stay, and a little less than two years after my dad passed I got put on the voluntold list, which was a list to go to headquarters for you know, essentially permanent reassignments for physicians and so talked to some people I knew that were serving time in headquarters and said is this real? Am I going to get drafted to go? And they said yeah, they're pulling from that list. And so at that point in time I realized that that was a true possibility for me, and so I looked at what I wanted to do and where I thought my skill set was best suited. So I took a position in our firearms operations division, which probably, as far as my professional career and getting out of my comfort zone and really transitioning the way I think about things, was probably one of the most beneficial to me.
Steve Morreale:So when you have those conversations with people in a lot of ways, I just spent some time at a command college, we just finished up down at Liberty University and we talk about these things, about somebody who stays in patrol I'm talking about local or somebody goes to canine or somebody goes into narcotics task force or such that ultimately it's not permanent, that we need to make room for other people to get that same experience, that experience. But when that happens and the boss calls you in, sometimes it's punitive, but most of the time it's because I want to round you out. I want you to know more about the organization is exactly what you said. What kinds of conversations do you have to try to make people understand exactly what you said, the why?
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, I think one of the most important aspects of that is truly understanding that there are families behind these people and, though although it may be beneficial from their career, approaching it with the individuals in ensuring that their family will have what it needs to thrive. I think is an important part of that conversation, because all too often we spend more time at work sometimes than we spend with our families, which creates some divides. And ultimately, if you go into a conversation, understanding that that's what people are thinking is how is this going to impact my family? Coming at it from that perspective, like hey, I know that you've got a son or daughter that are going to be going into high school. This is a good time for them to get in, and here's why. And having those conversations where you are at least recognizing that this impacts somebody beyond the individual getting transferred.
Steve Morreale:You're beginning to talk about wellness and work-life balance, which is something that is not easy for federal agents or even police officers to deal with.
Steve Morreale:I remember this, Jim and I was doing a training and there happened to be a province officer, a sergeant, and we were talking about wellness and what this does to our lives and families, because we become devoted to this and sometimes myopic and just getting the case done and chasing that SOB that he said in the class.
Steve Morreale:You know, Steve, what I'm hearing you say and what I've just realized is this that I spend so much time on the job, give so much time to the job, that when I get home, the best I give my family is crumbs. And that was pretty damning and it was kind of a punch in the face because I think I've been guilty of it, Maybe you've been guilty of it in the past, and how do we overcome that? So just having that conversation and you, Jim, having that perspective that family is important, is important. How important and essential is it for ATF? We're talking to Jim Ferguson from the Boston Office of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms about wellness and resilience and understanding our people your people, our colleagues, see stuff they can never unsee. How do you deal with it as an agency?
Jim Ferguson :Thankfully, the agency has a pretty good peer support program, which I'm also a part of. You know it's a good resource, but I don't think there's anybody that's more as the SAC here. I have the opportunity to interact with everyone, but I don't necessarily spend the time with individuals that I know when they're off and they may act slightly different when they speak to me anyway, and so it really is incumbent upon the team to keep the team together and make sure everybody stays health. For me, I really want to stress that we need to look out for each other because we know what norms are. If you spend every day the type of time that we spend together, the type of time that we need to look out for each other because we know what norms are.
Jim Ferguson :If you spend every day the type of time that we spend together, the type of time that we spend in cars together, you know, regardless of what the tasks are, you know we spend an ordinate amount of time very, very close with each other and you get to know somebody. You get to know somebody's tells if they're having a hard time or if they're focused on the wrong thing or, worse yet, they're withdrawing, and so it's really for me. I try to stress the team like we've got to take care of each other and anything that I can do to support that, whether that be bringing in the peer support team or providing the counseling numbers that we've got available. If somebody has a problem. You know those are the first steps, but it really is. The workload really becomes under the teams that you work with because they're going to see it first.
Steve Morreale:I'm thinking about your leadership style. If you think back to the way you began, you know we get thrown into these positions and one day you're an agent, the next day you're a group supervisor and you're not going to get training necessarily right away and you're now responsible not only for yourself, but for other people. Someone's driving the expectations right. This is what we need. We need this. Where's your case? Where's your arrests? Where's the search warrant? Whatever, whatever it might be, and over time, I think we make our mistakes. We're fallible. The big question I have for you do you lead today the same way as you did 15 or 20 years ago?
Jim Ferguson :No.
Steve Morreale:Tell me what has changed and how you grow and how you modify and what causes these things to change your approach.
Jim Ferguson :You know, I think to your point there comes a time where you are a line agent and then the next day you're a supervisor and you didn't receive any additional training and you now have to be the boss.
Jim Ferguson :And you have to be the boss without having any sort of formalized experience, but bearing all the brunt of all the success or failures of your group.
Jim Ferguson :And I always say that as a special agent, you have your problems.
Jim Ferguson :As a group supervisor, you have everyone's problems in the group, and that is part of it is having that understanding that just because I would deal with something one way doesn't mean that the agent that I'm dealing with would want to do it the same way.
Jim Ferguson :And so I look back on that and I think, because of the way that that transition happens, there's insecurity. There has to be right. I mean you come into this and now, all of a sudden, the very next day, you're the boss and you have to make the call and you have to be that bridge between the division and the working agents. And so I think that with maturity and experience, you have the ability to not only recognize problems before they happen, but you also have a greater comfort in dealing with those problems because you've been there before and, even if you had the worst supervisor in the world, you learn something from them, even if it was, uh, not to do that. So experience is one of those things that you just can't replace, because it gives people the confidence to handle things that ordinarily they may feel pressure one way or the other.
Steve Morreale:So somebody gets promoted in your division by the way, talking to Jim Ferguson, he is the special agent in charge of ATF in Boston, the Boston field division Somebody gets promoted, obviously. You've had a hand in that and is a process for that. And they're new, let's say it's a new group supervisor. Do you get a chance to talk with them or do you leave that to the ASAC?
Jim Ferguson :No, I try to do. I do it with, actually, even the new agents that we get. I think it's really important to provide some really basic information that, as you know, when you get into this job, your first couple of weeks of orientation you're trying to figure out what your thrift savings plan is, what your insurance plan is, and then, if you relocated here, how do you even get to the office, right? So there's a lot of that stuff that what do you do first? You know, over the years you see a lot of different sort of recommendations for what people need to do when they're new, and so I have a sheet. It's literally a sheet, and if you want to be successful, these are some of the things that you should do. It's literally a sheet, and if you want to be successful, these are some of the things that you should do.
Jim Ferguson :Participate in a trial, especially if it's not yours, because there's no better way to view a case than watching it being picked apart on the stand and understanding what we're doing in the field and why we're doing it the way we're doing it, because it matters when you're on court and you're having to take the stand and represent your case fact. So I really think that that dialogue is important, not only for new supervisors but for anybody coming into a position, so that you give them at least a roadmap for success and if they didn't know what to do, maybe it gives them one or two tips that helps them along the way.
Steve Morreale:So you've got a check sheet. So now, if somebody comes in and be a supervisor or even your ASAC Again, I'm aiming towards trying to understand how you set expectations.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah. So expectations, you know, and it depends if it's an ASAC, that's a different set of expectations for then first line supervisors. And so, looking and working with supervisors and having held that position, I recognize what that position is. Right, You're the gatekeeper between the agents and the work that they do and the division and the information sort of connectivity that they need to have and making sure that they understand that management is a lot of communication and making sure that you're not only communicating up but communicating down and setting expectations for their people. Being transparent Nobody wants the rules to change and so if you have changes, make sure that they understand what those changes are, how they're going to impact them and how you're going to get through it together.
Steve Morreale:So I'm curious to know when you're sitting around the table with your command staff? We've already talked about you being willing to listen, but do you set an agenda? Do you look for things that have been done differently so that you can learn from each other? Do you look at mistakes that happen? Try to learn from those, to use those as teachable moments?
Jim Ferguson :As I said, I think communication is vital, and not only communication to me, but also an understanding of what's going on in the division. I pulled staff meetings on a regular basis that everybody comes in there, everybody talks about what the priorities for the weeks are, what we see as potential issues coming down the pike, everything from operational to funding, and this way we're telegraphing that information out there so that everybody in the command staff knows what that is and can filter that information as they see fit to the teams that it impacts.
Steve Morreale:Your agents sometimes are placed on detail. How do you handle that? Because everything else comes to a halt If there's a case and there's a case agent, they're doing something else Washington or wherever how do you?
Jim Ferguson :handle that. When you're talking about the types of investigations that we're doing, they just can't take a break. So if we've got any type of extended leave for one reason or another you mentioned details, which certainly happens those are typically anywhere between 90 and 120 days at a whack. You were looking at the downside to that. If you were to leave cases open for 90 or 120 days and let's say you were looking at an illegal gun trafficker, how many guns got on the street in 90 or 120 days? It's just not feasible for us to simply just walk away from cases. So there has to be a transition. Those cases that are ongoing and active and that we have known criminal violations happening that are impacting public safety, those take the priority and those will get reassigned as needed. And if the case agent leaves, comes back and case is still ongoing, it's their case again. But we don't have the luxury of just sitting there waiting for him or her to come back.
Steve Morreale:That's a delicate balance that you have to play because headquarters is leaning on you for some people, because everybody's going to share the pain right about going to this detail or another detail while keeping the case chugging along, which is important. I mean, I understand, in drug cases sometimes we would have a CR and we wouldn't be able to have any buy money. On one day we're going to buy $30,000 worth of drugs and the next day you say you can't. It's kind of a signal, don't you think? I know you face that too, so speak to that, because I don't think most people understand that.
Jim Ferguson :Yeah, I mean, finances can always be challenging and ultimately, for guns, we're not typically looking to spend $10,000, $20,000 on any one gift buy, but on average we spend anywhere between $30,000 to $50,000 a month on agent cashier and that's something that is critical for us. If we're going to continue to identify criminal activity, we have to be able to have the money available to pay informants to utilize for undercover operations. That's vital for sure.
Steve Morreale:So you tap somebody on the shoulder and you say to them I think it might be time for you to consider a new position, in other words to put in for a position. The rotation in a headquarters is never easy, but again it helps to round you out. But as you're having that conversation with somebody, what kinds of guidance do you give them? What kinds of coaching do you give them about considering stepping into the next spot?
Jim Ferguson :I think part of the challenge is and I'm sure this is the same way in DEA, with ATF when you come on the job, headquarters is almost like the land of the abyss, right? Nobody wants to go there and ultimately, if you have been tapped on the shoulder to go, that could be a bad thing. It could be a good thing. It's kind of dispelling the rumors, quite frankly. That will allow us to get people to understand how the cases come together, why we do things in the field. That feeds the beast at headquarters and then really giving people the understanding of hey look, your authority right now pertains to what happens here in the New England Field Division. However, in headquarters you're touching things nationwide or international sometimes, and so having them understand the opportunity that's there for them to broaden their horizons, to get that experience, allows them to swallow the pill, sometimes a little bit easier.
Steve Morreale:Well, I think when you go to headquarters too, it does open your eyes. You might go kicking and shoving, but it opens your eyes to a much broader view. What are you most proud of with ATF and what it's accomplished, and even what's being accomplished in the Boston as far as the Boston Field Division, it's the people.
Jim Ferguson :Again, as I said earlier, it's the people that do the work on the ground. That really is the benefit of what ATF is, and I'm really proud of the people here in the Boston Field Division that do such tremendous work that really benefit the public here. And, quite frankly, the other thing that I'm most proud of is the relationships, and those go hand in hand. You alluded to it earlier. We are ATF's unofficial slope and is no better partner, and so we've got some phenomenal relationships with our state and local partners that really I couldn't be any more proud of, with our state and local partners that really I couldn't be any more proud of. I mean, whether we need something or they need something, it's reciprocal and the agencies are there to support one another.
Steve Morreale:Can you talk about something that happened recently? I'm talking about a case that most people I think to myself, having been an agent myself, and I know you too, that it's not easy. I'm not suggesting that clearly. We see what's going on with local law enforcement. There were several killings last week, which is just horrible to see Most of them with guns, one with a knife. But this is dangerous work. It's sexy work at times and it's boring work at times. Surveillance sucks right and working undercover is exhilarating, but it can be boring and it can be also dangerous. Now, now talk about that aspect of the job and the way you see it through your eyes as a boss.
Jim Ferguson :You know, as far as some of the things that I think ATF brings to the table, our ballistics program has come literally galaxies from where it was. Nibin is a program that links ballistics together so that you understand related crime scenes and you can identify that what gun was responsible for what crimes. And you know that was a process that if you were to ask this question 10 years ago, that information would take a year and a half, two years to get back. And, as you well know, they've got TV shows now called the First 48. The reason is the first 48 hours of a homicide or a shooting are vital, so to get information years later the value of that information is significantly tarnished, maybe less valuable because other means aren't there, whether it be phone records, geolocation information, things like this.
Jim Ferguson :And so now our program, as long as it gets to the system, the results will be provided within 24 to 48 hours, which is truly vital to not only the line detectives that are working those cases but even our agents when they're looking.
Jim Ferguson :We buy a gun that will office somebody and we determine we're in the middle of a firearms trafficking investigation. And now we run that gun and determine that it was used in a shooting two days before. Again, that changes the scope of the investigation for us and it really puts a bigger target on that individual, because it's not just the possession or sale of a gun now. Now we know that it's linked to violent gun crime. So I'm really happy about where we are now in the NIBIN world and the ballistics and even our tracing program. Again, when I started this job, we would literally fill out a form, fax it in and the results were mailed to us. That's how we got those results, and so technology changing has provided vital criminal intelligence to us in a much quicker way. That is more relevant and necessary for filing crime investigations.
Steve Morreale:Well, speaking of technology, talking to Jim as we wind down from ATF in Boston, technology is certainly changing quite rapidly. How is it impeding some investigations, the old encryption stuff and the things that we're all trying to kind of chase behind as we realize what's going signal and all of those kinds of things.
Jim Ferguson :As you well know, law enforcement can't address a problem until we know there's a problem, and so some of the great technology that our kids use become hurdles in investigations. Years ago Title III investigations if somebody was on a phone, they conducted their business on the phone. You went up on the phones and you got it. It's a different era now, and now it's a much different. You need different equipment to be able to monitor things. Some things become encrypted and more difficult to monitor real time, and so all of that puts law enforcement behind the eight ball when it comes to really getting into the heart of organizations, which is their communication.
Steve Morreale:Well, you know, I went to a DEA event, an Afton event, a couple of months ago and I was listening to agents that are far younger than you and I, and you're listening to these guys and they're talking about technology and what they're trying to do and how they're approaching it. I'm not sure that we could do the job today, because we're not digital natives like these young bucks are.
Jim Ferguson :No, I mean again, when you and I came on, wiring up and informant was an entirely different process than it is now. And this generation, I mean, they're born with phones in their hands. I mean, I remember my first phone when I got it, when I got on this job, we were assigned pagers, so it was different times, but you know, there's good and bad in it all. I think one of the things that's great is their ability to look at technology. One of the things that I find and maybe this is anecdotal for me, but you know, the art of a communication or interviewing is changing because people deal so much on their phones and interact without necessarily actually using their voice and sometimes AI is.
Steve Morreale:I mean, think about what AI is going to do to some people and AI voices and voice matching, and it's going to make it be much more difficult. We're winding down as we get to the end. Jim, what kind of hope do you have for agents coming on? Are you having recruiting issues? Is there still an interest in the feds? Are we seeing the same sort of problems in the federal agencies that we're seeing at the local level?
Jim Ferguson :Yes, Hiring and retention are tremendously difficult right now, going back 20 plus years. If the agency gave a test, ultimately the test would fill up in hours or a day, and now we're leaving that vacancy open for two weeks and not even filling the people necessarily. To really get a strong applicant pool, they say it's around 10%, so if a thousand people apply, really we only get a hundred people that make it through, and then they have to take the job, so they have to want to go where the agency has needs, and so all of those things have been tremendously difficult. And then the overall, unfortunately, the negative perception of law enforcement has certainly impacted that, even at the federal level.
Steve Morreale:I'm disappointed to hear that, but I'm certainly not surprised. So, as you come to the end, what message would you give to people who might be on the fence about potentially considering a job in the feds? Given that you are probably going to have to move, that you are going to be put in some situations that are uncomfortable sometimes, in the hopes of getting home at some point in your career, what advice would you give? Is it a noble profession still, especially at ATF?
Jim Ferguson :It is. And again, I've had and I'm eligible for retirement at this point and have the luxury of being able to look back, and at the time that I was coming on, I didn't necessarily differentiate between one agency or another. Right, our job series as 1811s are the same in DEA as it is ATF as it is an FBI. So when I was applying for jobs, I applied for all of those jobs and went through all of those processes and, as you said, it is a lengthy process. I think it took me just under three years from the time that I applied until the time that I came on. It's a long wait for a job. Huh, it's a long wait for a job, and what I would tell you is it is certainly worthwhile. On the other end and I could not be any more happy that now, knowing all the agencies, like I did, I think I fit in the right place. I think ATF was a tremendous fit for me. I think that the work that we do is in line with my instance, so it was a great fit.
Jim Ferguson :But you have to persevere and you have to really want it and you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone, as you previously meant, because, ultimately and this is the advice that I got from at the time a customs agent who was at the end of his career. He said if you really want to do this, stay in the federal government, because there's a benefit for that for you, because your leave and your retirement will compound, but, more importantly, you won't have to leave. You start your career at Boston Police Department or some other police department. By the time the feds call you may have several years of seniority with that department and you may not want to leave. And so that was great advice for me, because it allowed me to get into the federal government and kind of cut my teeth and, quite frankly, give me opportunities to apply for other jobs that otherwise I wouldn't be able to apply for.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, look at you, jim Ferguson, the Special Agent in Charge. Who'd have thunk that? Not me. I'd say that right now. Well, you're one lucky guy and they're, I think, lucky to have you. Hopefully you're paying forward to try to do the same thing that somebody told you how to take this job, how to approach this job and how to benefit from it, both for the government, the country and for you and your family, no, without a doubt. Well, thank you, jim. I very much appreciate it. We've been talking to Jim Ferguson. He is now the special agent in charge of the Boston Field Division for the Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco, firearms and Explosives, although ATF is the name that's used the most. I appreciate your time, jim. One last word If you had a choice to talk to anybody in the business that you've not been able to talk to to gather some advice, who would you want to chat? Steve Morreale, ah, you're doing that already, buddy.
Jim Ferguson :Okay, you got one. No, I don't. That's a great question. You know, ultimately, the people that I admire the most are the people you know. When you think of law enforcement, you know there's one name that always surfaced to the top Bill Bratton is one of those guys who's just an incredible visionary and has proven success, you know, in a multitude of different agencies and multitude of sizes, and so I'd love to get the opportunity to meet with people like that. But you know, I'm fortunate enough in my position that I get to meet and work with a lot of great people. I mean, michael Cox is the commissioner here in Boston, and he's not only an outstanding leader but an outstanding individual, and so it really is a privilege to be able to get to work.
Steve Morreale:That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time. I wish you the best in your career and wherever it brings you later, and my best to your family. So, jim, thank you very much for being here. Thanks very much, steve. Appreciate it, no problem. Well, that's it. Another episode is in the books. We're learning that people are listening to this podcast from 86 countries and more than 3,000 cities and towns, which just boggles my mind. So, keep listening. Thanks for your feedback, and if you have somebody I should be talking to reach out to me. Thanks very much. Have a good day.
Intro-Outro:Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.
