Mike Abrashoff -Leadership Beyond Command: Transforming Teams Through Trust

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 8 - Episode 152

What happens when a Naval Captain witnesses his crew cheering as his predecessor leaves? For Mike Abershoff, it sparked a leadership revolution that transformed USS Benfold from one of the worst ships in the Pacific Fleet to the best in the entire US Navy – all in just 15 months.

"The days of top-down command and control, my way or the highway leadership style, are over," Abershoff explains in this riveting conversation. Drawing from his bestselling book "It's Your Ship" (which has sold over 1.5 million copies worldwide), he shares how replacing fear with respect created extraordinary results.

Abershoff's methods were unconventional but effective. He interviewed all 310 crew members individually, seeing his ship through their eyes. He published the budget openly, empowering sailors to make financial decisions. He replaced divisive "diversity training" with a unity program based on mutual respect. Most remarkably, he reduced disciplinary cases from 28 to 5 per year, discovering in the process that previous leadership had unconsciously targeted minority sailors.

The parallels to policing are striking and instructive. Both military and law enforcement organizations have traditionally valued hierarchy and directive leadership, yet both face increasingly complex challenges requiring adaptability and innovation. "Just because we grew up in a system where our chain of command were buttheads to us doesn't mean we need to continue it," Abershoff advises police leaders.

Throughout our conversation, Abershoff reveals himself as a leader still learning – willing to acknowledge self-doubt, emotional connections, and the importance of seeing leadership from different perspectives. His "monkey tree" analogy (what looks like smiling faces from the top looks very different from below) offers a powerful reminder about truly understanding those we lead.

Whether you're a veteran police leader, an aspiring supervisor, or simply interested in organizational transformation, Abershoff's insights will challenge conventional wisdom and inspire a more engaged, respectful approach to leadership. Listen now to discover how small, consistent improvements can revolutionize your team's performance and culture.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Captain Mike Abershoff
• 9:10 The Turning Point: Crew Cheers Predecessor's Exit
• 23:04 Breaking with Command and Control Leadership
• 37:09 Unity Over Diversity: Transforming Ship Culture
• 46:22 Budget Transparency and Mattress Revolution
• 53:42 Building Bench Depth: Training Backup Teams
• 1:01:06 The Monkey Tree: Leadership Perspective Shifts

Transcript

Intro 📍  📍  📍 Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. 📍 The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies, and now. 📍  📍 Please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

Steve Morreale Hey everybody. Steve Morreale here coming to you from Boston today, and we are beginning another episode of The CopDoc Podcast. 📍  📍  📍 We are going to Miami Beach. Where it's a bit warmer than I am up here. 📍 And we're talking to Mike Gaff, who is a former Navy Big Shot, wrote a couple of books. 📍 It's Your Ship is the main one, and we're so happy to have you join us. Mike, good morning.

Mike Abrashoff Good morning Steve. Happy to be here.

Steve Morreale Thanks very much. We started to talk before, before about me sort of reading a book, using your books 📍 and those books, opening up conversations with. 📍  📍 Police leaders and myself, having spent some time in the military, you spending an awful lot of time in the military, there's such similarities, and yet they're a bit different, and so we wanna talk about it.

📍 But what started to happen is I hadn't seen you in a while, and all of a sudden you popped up on social media. 📍 You just told me a story. Tell me, tell me that story, how you ended up on LinkedIn all of a sudden. 

Mike Abrashoff Well, I've never been on social media. It's not something that I've chosen to spend my time on.

I've never had a Facebook account. I'm not on Instagram, not on Snapchat. 📍  📍 Anything else except LinkedIn. My business partner, Stacy Cunningham, was working out at CrossFit and one of the people she. Works out with runs This little outfit, uh, manages your accounts on LinkedIn, and so she convinced me to try it.

Humbled at their response, the first post had 46,000 views. Yeah, I've decided that in this challenging time that we're in right now to start posting more of the lessons that I learned not only in the Navy, 📍 but over the course of my, uh, post naval career. 📍  📍 And if people get something out of it, that's great.

It's an honor that people wanna read and uh, and tune in to what I'm posting on LinkedIn. 

Steve Morreale Well, there's some people with some long memories. 📍 I am one of them. And when I saw you sort of pop up, I say, I'm gonna take a shot. Literally, I took a shot to send you a message the moment I saw your post 📍 and within minutes you said, sure, I'm happy.

📍  📍  📍 So thank you, thank you, thank you. So tell the audience about yourself. You know, your history, your time in the Navy, your writing the book. Obviously it's all about leadership and your own unconventional approach to leading young troops on your ship. 

Mike Abrashoff📍  📍  📍 I grew up in a house of 10 people, seven women and three men, and we had one bathroom in our home growing up.

📍 My father was a state civil servant. 📍 My mother was a school teacher when I got out of the Navy and bought my home here in Miami Beach. It has four bathrooms in it, 📍 and I visit every one every day just because I can. 📍  📍 Well, at our age we need to hit them a lot. Don't we go? Go ahead. Unfortunately, correct.

But it beats the alternative. Yes. So anyway, I go to the Naval Academy, was a mediocre football player. 📍 Bill Belichick's dad, Steve was my football coach at the Naval Academy. Wow. So that's my connection to Boston. In the uh, eight August, 2004 edition of Sports Illustrated, 📍 they were doing an article on Bill Belichick and they asked him what his favorite leadership book was that he ever read.

📍  📍  📍 And he said, it's your ship. Wow. And so, uh, I've taken credit for all your Super Bowl victories. 

Steve Morreale  You can do that. We'd like a few more.

Mike Abrashoff But that's not gonna happen for a while. 📍 Yeah. Not in time signal, unfortunately. No. No. So I, you know, rise through the ranks in the Navy 📍 and I grew up in an organization that was very top down, command and control.

📍 My way or the highway, and that's how I learned to lead. And the biggest event of my life happened the day I took command of USS Benfold, uh, a guided missile destroyer and had a crew of 310 at the end of the change of command ceremony, as my predecessor was leaving 📍 the ship for the final time, I. 📍  📍  📍 With his parents and his wife and his kids.

And as his departure was announced on the public address system, 📍 my new crew stood and cheered at the fact that he was leaving. 📍  📍  📍 And in my entire career, I had never heard or seen such a blatant sign of disrespect. And the first thought that went through my mind was, as I came up through the ranks, I wonder how many of my sailors secretly cheered whenever I got transferred.

And the answer is I didn't know, which means I probably wasn't as self-aware as I needed to be. 📍 And then the second thought that went through my mind was. 📍 What do I have to do to keep that from happening to me two years from now when I leave this ship realizing that I'm not here to be liked, I'm here to keep my sailors safe, 📍 and in that moment it hit me the days of top down command and control my way or the highway leadership style.

📍  📍 It's over that anybody who continues to practice that leadership style isn't going to. Get the best performance outta your people and ultimately in your audience's line of work. Keep them safe. 📍 And what drove me every day wasn't my next promotion. I never wanted to have to write the parents of any of my sailors 📍 telling them that their sons or daughters weren't coming home because we didn't give it our best.

📍  📍  📍 So that started me on my journey to try to become a better leader in the surface community in the US Navy had a reputation that we like to eat are young. 📍 And when I saw my predecessor getting cheered off the ship, it hit me, why do we eat our young? 📍 Why are we proud of it? And why can't I do something to change it?

📍  📍  📍 And I realized there was something I could do to change it. And so it, that embarked me on my journey to try to become a better leader that connects with our people, 📍 that engages them and treats 'em with respect and dignity and gives them a voice. 📍  📍 And it says it's okay. If you see something that we could be doing better, I don't care what your rank is, I don't care how long you've been here, I don't care what your age is, you can come to work and tell us about it.

📍 And so in 15 months, the same crew that was performing near the bottom in the US Pacific fleet was awarded the Spokane Trophy, 📍 which was an award started in 1908 by President Theodore Roosevelt given annually to the best ship in the Pacific Fleet. 📍  📍  📍 And in years three and four, after that, USS Benfold won the award for best ship in the entire US Navy.

And it was just about improving 1% a day, focusing on the things that you can influence instead of obsessing over the things that you can't. 📍 

Steve Morreale That's why I'm here today. Yeah, so I love the idea. Problem identifiers. Mike Roberto writes about that as, but know what you don't know. 📍 Forget the problem solving.

Focus on problem identification. 📍  📍  📍 Make it easy for people to come forward to tell, because the troops, as you well know, 📍 the troops know what's going on, whether it's on your ship or it's on the road. 📍  📍 And we get into our ivory towers and think that we know everything. I think in a lot of ways, and I like what you're talking about, is command and control, but that problem identification is really important, but you've gotta open that up.

 📍 You began a marked change in the way your predecessor. Others who you worked for commanded. In some cases, I think it is ruled by fear. 📍 You're gonna listen to me because I've got the stars, the stripes, the eagles on my collar or, or on my, on my shirt, the stripes. 📍  📍 And in some cases it's passe. But Mike, I've got to tell you that it's still exists in policing.

It's beginning to kind of push itself out. But tell me how much resistance you might have gotten from your own bosses about your unconventional approach, listening to people who you make this. 📍 I mean, you tell me you did. You can't tell me you didn't get pushback at first. 📍 

Mike Abrashoff I got no pushback from my chain of command.

Steve Morreale No kidding. That is amazing. 

Mike Abrashoff📍 I'm going to get my first fitness report in command. Mm-hmm. And I'd only been in command for six weeks. 📍 I was the youngest. I was being rated against five other commanding officers. 📍  📍  📍 I'm the youngest. I have the at least amount of time in the job. I knew I was going to be ranked six to six, and I go get my fitness report.

📍 I'm ranked six of six, the worst evaluation of my career. I sign it. The admiral looks at me quizzically and says, 📍 are you satisfied with this? And I said, no, sir. 📍 When I come back next year, I'm gonna be one of six. Well, he blew a gasket. He started spitting on me 📍 as he spoke. He poked me in the chest. 📍  📍  📍 He said, let me tell you how you're gonna be one of six.

He said, take command of your ship. He said, I rank these other guys higher, but quite honestly, they dump all their problems on my doorstep and expect me to make the decisions that I'm paying them to make. 📍 He said, if you want to be ranked one of six, take command. And then he said, just keep me informed. 📍 So I'm walking back down the pier to my ship.

📍  📍  📍 I'm looking at my shoes, my career's over, I've got one of the dirtiest rustiest ships in the Navy 📍 with one of the most disrespectful workforces, and I get to the quarter deck and I said, screw it. 📍  📍  📍 Now, I said, another word. 

Steve Morreale I understand. I think I know that word. 

Mike Abrashoff It's a nautical term that we use in the Navy.

Steve Morreale Never heard it. 

Mike Abrashoff I said, screw it. I'm gonna take command. 📍 And from that day forward, I stopped asking for permission, but instead the admiral said, keep me informed before we did anything. 📍 I'd fire off an email unless otherwise directed. This is what we intend to do or what I intend to do. 📍  📍  📍 Never got any pushback.

So I put myself in the boots of my sailors and viewed me through their eyes, and I also put myself in the shoes of my chain of command and asked myself, well, what do they want for me? 📍 Well, one, they want the ship to be operated safely, but two, they don't want to be surprised. 📍 And if your chain of command is surprised by something you're doing, then you're not doing a good job of managing up.

📍  📍  📍 And so I would always put myself in their shoes, view what I was trying to do through their eyes, and then communicate in advance, and they never once shot me down. 📍 I do not have one bad thing to say about my chain of command. That's so great to hear 📍 and but I think when you walked out of there, you thought, I.

📍 I'm gonna prove that wrong. I'm gonna make something happen. I'm gonna work on me and the crew. Give them hope. 📍 That's a big thing. Give them hope that there's always room for improvement. 📍  📍  📍 Let's work towards that improvement. Is that a fair assessment? It is, but I'll be honest, I was full of. Self-doubt every day and second guessing myself, am I doing the right thing?

📍 Is discipline improving? If I, if we're in combat and I give the order to shoot, are the sailors gonna shoot? 📍 Or are they gonna raise their hand and say, Hey Captain, have you thought of this? 📍 So there are times when you have to be directive when you're in a leadership position, I understand. But if you're directive a hundred percent of the time, 📍 then you're not gonna have that discipline for people to dig deep when you truly need it.

📍  📍  📍 And so every day I questioned myself. I would bring my second in command into my cabin. I'd bring the command master chief up. He's the senior enlisted guy. He represents the crew. 📍 I'd shut the door and I'd say, now what the heck do we do? You know, are, are we on the right track? 📍 And so it was just so.

Accidents happen when complacency sets in. 📍 And by being full of constantly questioning myself, I think it kept me from becoming complacent so that we were always trying to get to the next level of performance. 📍 And so it was a thrilling job. 📍  📍 I would've done it for free. I loved it so much. I was on my toes constantly challenging myself.

Whether we were doing the right thing or not. So that self-doubt that you talked about, I call it the imposter syndrome sometimes. 📍 Am I the right person? Can I do it? I don't belong. What makes me so different than anybody else? 📍 And I, I understand. And you had gone to the Naval Academy and been trained in all of those kinds of things.

📍  📍 If I could interject and I graduated in the top 80% of my class at the Naval Academy and I had a professor who actually told me I wasn't smart enough to be a naval officer. 📍 So in many ways I spent my whole career. Trying to disprove that professor that, yeah, I may not be number one in the class, 📍 but nobody is gonna out hustle me.

📍 Nobody is gonna outthink me and nobody's gonna outwork me. So in many ways that instructor gave me negative motivation. 

Steve Morreale Yes, I understand that. 📍 I understand that. So we're talking to Mike Abrashoff. And he is the author, former naval captain and author of It's Your Ship. 📍  📍  📍 So let's talk about that for a moment.

About the book. The book you publish. I don't even know, I, I have it, but I didn't look. When did you publish that book? 

Mike Abrashoff📍  📍  📍 The original came out in 2002. Great. And then I came out with an updated version in 2012. 2012. Okay. What was the motivation of that book? So we got featured in Fast Company Magazine 📍 and also the Harvard Business Review and the article in Fast Company became the number one reader response article in the history of Fast Company Magazine.

📍  📍 And, uh, they asked me to come keynote, one of their conferences, and I had never spoken in public before and I followed Tom Peters as a keynote speaker. Oh boy. 📍 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He got a polite golf clap after his presentation. 📍 I got three standing ovations and literary agents started a column. They said, you ought to write a book.

📍 And I remember thinking, get real. I'm in the Navy, but after six or seven agents called, I thought, what the heck? Why not? 📍 And so I called my mother. She was 80 years old at the time. 📍  📍 I said, mom, I'm getting out of the Navy. And she says, what are you gonna do? I said, I'm gonna write a book. And she said to me, you don't even read books.

📍 So what caused me to write it was, I guess I never anticipated. The response that it's gotten around the world. It's published in 10 different languages. 📍 The publisher thought I might sell 20,000 copies, and I've now sold over 📍  📍  📍 1.5 million, and I get emails from around the world and people in the business world, government, law enforcement, military, who have used that as a way to improve their own leadership skills so that they can get to the next higher level themselves.

Steve Morreale 📍 That's great. Ironically, you've got at least two or three purchases from me because I had it. When it first came out 📍 and where the hell it went? I don't know. 📍 Maybe I gave it to somebody and I just bought another one when I saw you kind of pop up again. 📍 And I use it an awful lot and I obviously suggested, so it was called, it's your Ship.

📍  📍 Those of you who are listening, and we're talking to Mike Geoff, and he's down in Miami Beach in semi-retirement I suppose. So what are you doing now? What’s keeping you busy. 

Mike Abrashoff📍 Well, I don't consider myself semi-retired. My mother taught junior high school until she was age 86 and she lived to 102, just passed away last July.

So. I don't, 📍 when you love what you do, I don't wanna retire. 📍  📍  📍 So I continue to give keynote speeches, give about 80 to 85 speeches a year, and I have a small consulting group with my partner, Stacy Cunningham. And so, uh, all these things, uh, keep me busy and it works out to, uh, working as hard as I wanna work.

Steve Morreale 📍 No, that's a nice situation. I'm in the same boat. I appreciate talking to you. 📍 Talking to you. One of the things you was talking about is discipline, and I'm starting to have the conversations with police agencies. 📍  📍 I'm involved with the Command College at Roger Williams University, also with Liberty University, that maybe we need to be more corrective rather than punitive.

Tell me what you think about that. 

Mike Abrashoff📍 So when I saw my predecessor getting cheered off the ship. I turned to my second in command and I said, 📍 I'd like to see the results of the anonymous equal opportunity survey that's required to be given prior to any change of command. 📍  📍 And he looked at me and said, we don't have the results.

And I said, but it's a requirement to administer the survey. He said, yes, sir, we administer the survey, but nowhere in the manual does it say we have to tabulate the results. 📍 We didn't want to know what the crew was thinking about us, so we didn't tabulate them. I said, tabulate the results and report back.

📍 Now, Benfold was the first ship from the keel up to accommodate both men and women in the Navy. 📍  📍 And when the results came back, showed that the woman felt like there was overwhelming sexual harassment on the ship. And the minorities felt like there was overwhelming racial prejudice on the ship, and the white males felt like there was overwhelming favoritism shown towards women and minorities.

📍 And so that was a trifecta I've never seen successfully duplicated anywhere. So one of my first acts in command, I canceled our diversity training program because you used to work in government 📍 and you know, we have to take these mandatory programs and what ended up happening, people would leave the course.

📍  📍 More upset than when they went in and they were, it felt like it was jamming it down our throats and, and I never liked it. And here I had statistic proof that it wasn't working. 📍  📍  📍 So I canceled our diversity program and put on our Unity program. And it's based, same concepts of our diversity program except 📍 different label.

Different label that doesn't make people feel guilty. 📍 And it's based on simple content concepts. Uh, it takes. Different skill sets, different levels of creativity, different genders, different races to make a great organization, 📍 and that you treat each other with respect and dignity, and you treat each other in a manner in which you yourself want to be treated by me.

📍  📍  📍 And I interviewed every sailor on the ship individually, all 310 of them, and in every interview I would ask. Is there racial prejudice on this ship? And is there sexual harassment on this ship? 📍 And in instances where sailors wanted to tell me about it, I got to the bottom of it. And non-compliance was painful on that ship.

I can't legislate what you think or do when you're not on board, 📍 but when you're on board this ship, you're gonna treat each other with respect and dignity and that's it. 📍  📍 That's all it had to be. That's your standard and yep. And for your listeners, you know, around the world. The US has wrapped ourselves around the axle with DEI and I get it, but focus on what unites us instead of what divides us and realize that we're stronger together as a team if we work together, celebrating each other's differences in, in whatever.

📍 And so that was the basis of our Unity program. So I was always on the lookout. Is discipline improving under my leadership style or is it getting worse? 📍 And I never had a concrete example until my last week in command of the Ship and Fast Company came out to write their article about us. 📍  📍 And I'm sitting there in my cabin thinking, why would a business magazine want to write about a unit of the government?

So I started to come up with metrics that could state a business case. 📍 And one of them is a discipline. And in the Navy we have a disciplinary process whereby if you break a rule or regulation, 📍 you get placed on report. And you come before me for what's known as captain's mast. 📍  📍 And if I find you guilty at captain's mast, I can throw you out of the Navy.

I can reduce you in rank. I can take half your pay for two months, I can put you on extra duty for 45 days. 📍 And it hit me that I didn't think I had many disciplinary cases in my last year, and I never had a directive that say. Looked the other way. 📍 Nobody ever broke the rules. 📍 And so I compared my predecessor his last year in command, who was a disciplinarian to my last year in command.

📍 And in his last year in command, he had 28 disciplinary cases, of which he threw 23 sailors out of the Navy. 📍  📍 Of those 28 14 were young African American males. Even though they only made up 10% of the workforce, they were making up 50% of the cases, the offenses. And I look at my last 12 months, I had five cases on four sailors and one guy rolled the dice and went twice.

📍  📍  📍 And I look at the name, at the names and they were all young, white males. And it hit me. 📍 When was the last time an African American male got placed on report on this ship and you had to go back 17 months. 📍  📍 And it's the statistic I followed after I left and you had to go 10 months after I left the ship.

So the next African American male got placed on report. 📍 So for 27 months, a subset of the population that used to make up 50% of the disciplinary cases now made up none. 📍 And we went from 28 disciplinary cases down to five. 📍 So what it showed me, one was discipline improves when people are more engaged to their work.

📍 And what it also showed me was there was racial prejudice on that ship. 📍  📍  📍 And people may not have realized it, but the statistics bore out. That the African American males were making up a disproportionate share of the cases, and by focusing on unity and by asking is there racial prejudice on this ship?

📍 I'd like to think that we drove racial prejudice off the ship and everybody was allowed to perform at a higher level, and we ended racism on the ship. 📍 And so that's a long-winded answer to does discipline improve when. 📍  📍 People are engaged with their work and I've now have the statistics to say, yes it does.

Steve Morreale So a few things, and I used the word vulnerability. It actually came up in a training yesterday. 📍 Not for me, but by somebody else, that in order to be a leader, you have to be vulnerable. You have to admit that was a mistake. 📍 You have to admit that maybe that was the wrong approach. 📍 It doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water, or let's see what we can do to make things better.

📍 Did you find yourself as a high ranking naval official? 📍  📍  📍 Sometimes allowing yourself to be vulnerable? 

Mike Abrashoff I'm not a, uh, to me vulnerability, I don't like the term. I'd rather use self-awareness than being vulnerable. 📍 I'm okay with that. I'm not perfect and I never will be, and my sailors will never be perfect.

📍  📍 So something didn't work out. Instead of blaming people prior to getting command to the ship, I was a number two assistant to the Secretary of Defense, Dr. William Perry. And my last day working for him, prior to getting command of the ship, he brought me into his office and sat me down and said, Mike, no matter how hard you try, your ship is never going to be perfect.

📍 He said, you're gonna have disappointments every day. He said, whenever you're disappointed in an outcome, I want you to remember one thing. He said, assume your crew wanted to do a great job, 📍 and if you don't get the results you're looking for, don't blame them first, but instead look inward and ask yourself, did you clearly communicate the goals to them?

📍  📍  📍 Did you give them the training necessary to be successful? Did you give them the time and the resources to do a great job? But most importantly, did the process support them delivering the results you were looking for? 📍 So I guess instead of being vulnerable, I would always apply that standard to if something didn't work out, and I realized 90% of the time when I didn't get the results I was looking for, 📍 there was something that I could have done differently or better to have generated a better outcome.

📍  📍 I would always look inward when something didn't work out instead of assuming other people didn't want to do their job properly. Yeah, there's a big deal with reflection and introspection I think. 📍 You know, good leaders do that. They look at themselves to make sure, 📍 I mean, I've had to do it the other day.

It was just something I didn't communicate as well as I did. 📍 It didn't happen. Same thing. The outcome wasn't what I expected. I went back to that person and I said, I'm gonna assume responsibility. 📍 I didn't communicate this clearly. How can we get this done? 📍  📍  📍 How can we get you back on track and how can we set you on a course to be successful?

It worked. It absolutely worked. It was that easy. You know, ownership and getting input. 📍 What you were doing is really important. But I want to begin to apply this to your understanding of policing versus the Navy or the military in terms of top-down, 📍 looking to the troops for answers, looking to the troops to help understand is there a better way to do these?

Steve Morreale 📍  📍  📍 Things, how would you apply that in the police world, in your mind? 

Mike Abrashoff So as I told you, I interviewed every sailor individually, 📍 and it was just get to know you. 📍  📍  📍 What are your goals while you're in the Navy? What are your goals in life? Who's your favorite football team? 📍 And I had a photo taken of every sailor and I had an index card, and I would staple that photo to the index card, and after every interview I would write down what I learned.

📍  📍 And in the interviews I'd ask, what do you like most about this ship? What do you like least? What would you change if you were the captain? And rule number one is you can't change the captain. 📍 And rule number two is we can't change the rest of the navy. So focus on our own little piece of it. 📍 And rule number three was be responsible.

I don't have any extra money in the budget. 📍 So whether you're a, you don't have to be the chief of police to be a leader. One, 📍 you can be a leader in the community. Two, you can lead your peers. 📍  📍 But three, you know, focus on what you can influence and understand what your team is looking for, what your officers, why they signed up and what's going on in their lives so that you can have a little bit more empathy for 'em.

📍 When I found out what was going on in my sailors' lives, like we take them away from their families for long periods of time, I found out who the parents were on the ship, and I knew when parent teacher conferences were in San Diego 📍 and I made sure that on parent teacher conference day that the, the sailors were able to go.

📍  📍 And so it's just knowing what's important to them. I would also try to make them look like they're heroes to their family so that when they bring their family on board, the ship, every one of them would bring 'em up to my cabin. 📍  📍  📍 I would meet parents, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters. And it was building them up and giving them pride in their, in their unit.

📍 And so it was just that getting to know your people. 📍  📍  📍 And when you know your people, you tend to respect them more. You understand the journey that. They're on 📍 and you want them to be safe, so you want to create a better work environment for them. 📍  📍 I guess my relation to police work is just because we grew up in a system where our chain of command were butt heads to, to us, doesn't mean we need to continue it.

📍 That's what I did when I saw my predecessor getting cheered off the ship. Hey, just because I had to put up with this stuff 📍 doesn't mean I can't fix it. 📍 If you're that young corporal or sergeant, you can learn from good leaders. You can learn from bad leaders, 📍 but develop your own leadership style in a way that's you're comfortable with.

📍  📍 And don't try to be somebody you're not, because if you're not authentic, people will see right through you and realize you're a fraud. And so be the person that you are and you wanna see your, your officers be safe. 📍 You wanna see them take pride and, and so I have a tremendous amount of respect for law enforcement in this country.

📍 And they're out at night. Patrolling not the great neighborhoods, but the the less great neighborhoods, and we owe them our thanks. 📍  📍  📍 And so instead of tearing them down, what I would try to do is build them up. And that's what William Perry, the Secretary of Defense, taught me, was the value of giving people validation as opposed to tearing them down all the time.

📍 So that's something that everybody can learn, I think, in law enforcement, and that's how you deliver better services to your communities. 📍 That's how you make 'em safer, and that's how you make your. 📍 Your officer's safer. 

Steve Morreale So since you've been out, you've been doing things, you've been doing keynotes, you've been traveling, whether it's businesses or public organizations, wherever or other military installations 📍 or band, colleges, whatever it might be, you learned, in other words, you practiced what you preached and you were successful at it.

📍  📍  📍 But what are the continual learning opportunities you find when you're talking to people who are trying to implement what you did, trying to learn from what you did? 📍 How has your own mindset. 📍  📍 expanded beyond time in the Navy. 

Mike Abrashoff So clearly the interviews of the sailors were fundamental to, for me, learning who they are as people and developing a tremendous amount of respect for 'em.

📍 But that also is developing rapport that you're li, you're a listener. 'cause I understand that. Intense listening, active listening. 📍 Did anybody ever do that to you? Never. Okay. Well that's interesting. 📍 So in other words, my supposition is. That you said, I never want to be that person, that bad leader. I want to be different.

When I was a young junior officer, officer, 📍 the deck at sea, I had a captain that would yell at us until veins popped out of his neck and forehead. 📍  📍  📍 I've had them and it's like, how can you be enjoying this job if that's what you have to do? And I would listen there. I'd sit there and take it. 📍 He was. If I did something wrong, you know, nobody feels worse about it than me.

📍 You can't yell at me and make me feel any worse. You can embarrass me, but you can't make me feel worse than I already do. 📍  📍 And so I realized that the yelling and screaming would never have an impact on me. And so I said, I'm never gonna do that to my sailors. So when you know your people and respect them, you develop a camaraderie.

📍 And you develop a cohesiveness in the group, and it's about having each other's back. And that's critical in the police profession as it is in the military, 📍 that you have a cohesive unit that has each other's back, and that's how you create a better organization. 📍  📍  📍 So going back to the things you have learned about the questions people ask you, I know as a speaker sometimes you never get to go on break because.

They want a piece of you they want talk with. 📍 And as you're, as you're collecting all of the feedback, all of the questions, what's similar and what's changed in the world from your time band? 📍 So I do six events a year for a high-end, uh, German car manufacturer. 📍  📍  📍 Okay. Um, and I've gotten feedback from their general managers that the interviews didn't work for them and it's how you do the interviews.

They would during. Doing them as interrogations 📍 and the interviews are not an interrogation, they're conversation. 📍  📍 So I would walk sailors around the cabin in my ship and show them my naval photos and explain the significance of each one and, and how it got me to where I am. 📍 And, and it gave me the opportunity to tell them the big picture of how we're.

Supposed to defend our fellow citizens, 📍 and this is us down at sea level. So the interviews weren't interrogations, they were just conversations. 📍  📍 And so when people feel like they're part of a conversation and that you're actually listening to what they're saying, then they open up to you. And so when I was a young lieutenant, I was an Admiral's Aid in the Philippines in one of our.

📍 Top line cruisers ran aground off the coast of South Korea and left their sonar doman at the bottom of the ocean, 📍 did $10 million worth of damage, and the ship was out of action for six months. 📍  📍  📍 I'd never done an accident investigation before, and the admiral put me on the team so I get some experience, and I interviewed sailors on the ship, 📍 and I found 22 sailors who knew that the ship was standing into danger and about to run a ground.

📍  📍 They feared telling their captain that they were standing in the danger. And from that experience, I learned I do not want people to fear telling me the truth because bad things can happen when people fear you. 📍 And so what I tried to do through these interviews was to gain respect. And let them know that they have a voice.

If they see something, 📍 I want them to feel free to say something because I don't want to have an accident because somebody was afraid to tell us the truth. 📍  📍 And so that's what I tried to accomplish through the interviews, was to replace fear with respect in the organization and the reasonableness, I suppose, willing to listen.

And if you didn't come to me, you can talk to other officers, right. 📍 Wanna know what you have to say. You are on the ground. Right. Or you could talk to my command master chief. Exactly. My command master chief was a. He, he's a wonderful resource in getting people to open up to him 📍 and, and he knew which sailors were running with the wrong crowd out in town and he could provide guidance and like a big brother coaching and counseling.

📍  📍 Yes, exactly. Yeah. He knew. He knew who was apt to get into trouble and. He would focus on them. 

Steve Morreale So Mike Abrashoff is on the line with us and we're talking about his book and leadership and his experiences even to this point in time. 📍 You know, the question I would have is, so you walk onto this ship, you don't bring your All Star team, you have what you have, right?

Mike Abrashoff Right. You get what you get, 📍 including your junior officers and your command master chief. 📍  📍  📍 How did you begin to drive to have the conversation about what your expectations were of them? In other words, if they're going to kind of countermand you 📍 or operate in a top down mentality, then it's gonna work against you.

📍  📍  📍 So how did you set the table for that? Well, one, I had to set the example that I never countermanded my chain of command. And if a directive came down, I owned it to the crew and the officers. 📍 It's as if it was coming for me, because I've worked for officers in the past who said, well, I don't agree with this, 📍 but this is what they're making us do.

📍 No, you gotta be loyal up the chain of command. If a directive came down. It's as if it was coming for me. 📍 Now, if I didn't agree with it, I would tell the crew, here's the requirement. 📍  📍 If you guys have an idea how we can do this better to pass it back up the chain of command. And so I think it was imperative for my officers and chiefs not to say that to their people that I don't agree with the captain, but this is what we have to do.

📍 I got the idea to interview the sailors in the middle of the night, and I started that morning 📍 and I was new to the ship and it took a month. 📍 For the command master chief to trust me enough to come tell me that the officers and chiefs weren't with me, that they didn't want me talking to their people directly, 📍 and I go back to William Perry instead of blaming them for being resistant to change, I ask myself, what did I do wrong and I never got them together.

📍  📍  📍 To tell 'em what it was I was trying to do. So when I realized that I'm the one who made the mistake, I got the officers and chiefs together and I said, look, folks, here's the requirement. 📍 Here are the questions. Why don't you interview your people before they ever came up to see me? 📍 I'm not here to undermine you.

I'm here to give you a contented workforce. 📍 Here are the questions. What do you like most about this ship? What do you like least? 📍 What would you change if you were the captain and they were now empowered to listen to their people and make changes? 📍  📍 And what happened? Things started happening right the first time, and the chiefs didn't have to go back and redo everything or chase people around to get the job done.

And so the chiefs found it was in their own best interest. 📍 They adopt this leadership style because things started happening seamlessly on the ship. 

Steve Morreale Mike, how often did you take the time to explain why? When you could now understanding command and control in tax situations, serious situations, as you said at the beginning, 📍 that's not the approach you should take for everything command and control has, its.

📍  📍  📍 Time in service, time in rank has its time in its place. But how important was it for you to explain why we things, why we do it this way, 📍 but if we're wrong, let us know. Mike Abrashoff 📍  📍 We can consider changing the approach. What do you think about that? So it wasn't until after I left the ship that I find out that one of the nicknames the crew had for me was Mega Mike, because they said there wasn't a microphone I couldn't walk past without talking into it.

📍 So communications is key. I bet you 50 or 60% of my day was spent either listening to sailors or communicating back to them where we're going, why it's in the Navy's best interest, 📍 why it's in our best interest, but most importantly why it's in their own best interest that they get on board. 📍  📍 So it was one big.

Getting people aligned with where we needed to go, and here's where my master chief came in. He had his little band of informants around the ship where if my message was getting diluted or changed on the way down the chain of command, people trusted him and would tell him. 📍 And then he'd come tell me and say, this isn't the message that they got.

So my master chief was my sounding board 📍 and my liaison to the crew that if something wasn't communicated properly, he'd give me feedback on that. 📍  📍  📍 How did you celebrate the wins? Well, that's a great question. Nobody ever asked me, 📍 so to be honest, I celebrated the wins. By upping the standards so that we got even better next time.

📍  📍 So I, I, I lifted an idea from the Army. It's called the after action review, of course. And after everything we did on the ship, we would critique it and talk about what it was we were trying to do, what the conditions were at the time, what worked, what didn't work, what would we do differently next time if we see this again.

📍 And on Ben Fold, I added three criteria. You check your ego at the door. There's no, no reprisals against anybody. And just be respectful. 📍 Anybody could challenge me in an after action review, and if they were right, I would change right on the spot. 📍  📍 And so it was about when we would have a victory, it was okay.

We would have an after action review and ask ourselves why we had this victory, what we did to get there, and what can we do next time to do even better? 📍 So it was never resting on our laurels. It was constant improvement. And so we would do after action reviews, not only on the victories, 📍 but also on the things that didn't work out.

📍 So it was just constant learning and that's how we get to the next higher level of performance. 📍 So what often troubles me about organizations that are almost resistant to change, sometimes there's a new policy and the policy comes out and the mindset of the big boss is we already spent a lot of time on that.

 Steve Morreale 📍  📍 We're not changing the policy and yet factors change. And I think you need to be nimble and it's time to tweak. So it sounds like you did an awful lot of tweaking in some ways to get the intended outcome. 📍 And it seems to me that it was continual learning, continual improvement that you were pushing on the Benfold.

Mike Abrashoff So look, the Navy has been around 249 years. 📍 We have standard operating procedures that I can't violate. 📍 We've got a rule book that's, you know, this thick. Yes, I've got to adhere to the standards that the Navy sets for me, 📍 but that doesn't mean we can't. Improve on those standards. 📍  📍  📍 And so what we tried to do was constantly improve on the standards.

And you asked me about sharing of information. In the past, 📍 the budget on the ship was kept a secret between the captain and the supply officer, and the crew never knew what was in the budget. 📍  📍 So as a result, each division gets their share of the budget and then they, they feel like they have to spend it, whether they need it.

The material at the time were not, and it would lead, some divisions would have excess, some division would have shortages, and it was a terrible way to budget for an organization. 📍 And so I published the budget every day, every morning. The sailors knew exactly how much money was in the budget, 📍 and I said to 'em, spend money on this ship as if it's coming out of your own pocket.

📍  📍 If you wouldn't spend your own money on this, then don't ask the taxpayers to spend theirs. And so what happened was we had money left over at the end of the quarter that I could then apply. 📍 So the projects that I wanted that were important to me, and one of the things I did with that money that we saved 📍 a ship is a small city and I, I run a restaurant.

📍 I serve 930 meals a day, but I also have to house these sailors officers always had a four inch mattress. Enlisted, had like a two inch mattress 📍 and I got in one day and it's like, how can people sleep with this mattress? 📍  📍 So by publishing the budget, we were able to save money and I bought. Four inch mattresses for every sailor on the ship.

Steve Morreale Wow. So that they could have as a reward for great work. 📍 Exactly right. Exactly right. I'm talking myself into this answer as as we talk, but what it showed the crew was 📍 that they live up to their end of the bargain. 📍 I'm gonna do things to improve their quality of life. And just a simple thing as a. Four inch mattress made all the difference in the world.

📍 Well, it sounds to me that you were trying to create a number of people who were stewards of the Navy and stewards of the taxpayer's money, and by sharing that or not hiding the ball, so many police departments do exactly that. 📍  📍  📍 I'm the chief, only the chief and lieutenant know what the budget is and we're gonna hide the ball.

I find that absolutely inappropriate, especially given what happens when somebody goes down. 📍  📍  📍 And I think in my case, I'm wondering whether or not what you were trying to accomplish. Also was to create what I call bench depth, 📍 so that if somebody went down, they weren't the only person that knew that particular job. 📍  📍  📍 So the cross training fair. 

Mike Abrashoff So that's a great point. We have like six or seven positions on the ship, which are critical to the functioning of the ship. Mm-hmm. 📍 Whereas if I would lose. That one person, I probably couldn't get the ship underway and carry out our mission. And when I took command, we were one deep in those critical positions 📍 and it's tyranny to the people at the top to only be one deep and relying on one person.

📍  📍 So I trained a, a second string, and the first stringers. Weren't happy at the beginning 'cause they thought they were giving up power and prestige. But by training a second team, it gave me enormous flexibility in the watch rotation, schooling, vacations, training, the whole nine yards. 📍 And I thought, this is great.

I'm gonna train a third team. So I trained a third team, 📍 and by this time, these six or seven positions, you have to be a senior person. 📍 You have to have a certain amount of time and grade time and grade and time and rank. Yep, yep, yep. And I ask. Why is that? 📍 And I don't care if you're 19 years old, if you're motivated to get qualified and you wanna do it, I'm gonna qualify.

📍  📍 I don't care what your time and grade is. And so I opened it up to the entire crew. If you wanna strive to be trained and qualified in one of these positions, I'll let you do it. 📍 And so I had 21 year olds qualifying in these. Positions, and I had a fourth team. I had four people for each critical position on the ship.

📍 Now, Benfold won the award for best ship in the Navy, years three and four after I left. 📍  📍 And people ask me, well, how did that happen? When you're a young, uh, sailor, you're typically on the ship for five or six years. Officers rotate every 18 months to to 30 months. 📍 And so the officers are constantly changing in and out.

But there's that core of enlisted people who are the stability 📍 and as they. Got qualified at age 21 and then spent another five years there and matured, they got even better. 📍  📍 And that's how the ship got even better after I left, is because of that investment of having a backup to a backup to a backup to the first team.

Steve Morreale Well, think of it as a football team, somebody gonna. 📍 Fall. You need a second stringer and a and a third string. 'cause that happened, quarterbacks, all that. So I understand. That's a great concept. So one of the things I saw you write, and we're talking to Mike Aber down in Miami Beach, 📍 and was that you said, look for those who seek responsibility and give it to them, sounds like that's exactly what you were doing.

Mike Abrashoff 📍  📍  📍 Exactly. Right. And to get certified to go on a deployment. To the Middle East, you have to be certified in 24 critical missionaries, 📍 and if you don't qualify, you get a lot of attention that's unwanted by the ship. 📍  📍  📍 People descend upon you to help you get qualified. This qualification period takes six months.

And at week one, the Navy ascends their assessors onboard the ship to assess your baseline so that they can then tailor the program for the remaining six months. 📍 And the remaining six months sucks. You're at sea, you're away from your family, 📍 you're at general quarters, you're doing miserable training.

It's just a lousy time in the life of the ship. 📍 And I had this great idea to ask to take the final graduation problem at week one. And the assessors laughed at me. 📍 50% of the ships were flunking at after six months. 📍  📍  📍 And here's this arrogant person asking to get certified in all 24 areas. Well, I had enough officers and chiefs for 23 of the 24 areas and 24th area was the I  📍 Visit, boarding, search and seizure of visiting merchant vessels if they were carrying contraband and then capturing them. And I didn't have a person, a senior person to be responsible for this mission area, 📍 but there was a 22-year-old, his name was Jason Garner. 📍  📍  📍 Who was a gunner's maid on this ship and he volunteered to lead the program.

And my number one department head said to me, what if he fails? And I said, well, what if he succeeds? 📍 Then we get certified at week one. And so the officers reluctantly gave up control of this program to a 22-year-old. 📍 Guess what? He got the highest score of the 24 of the 24 mission areas. 📍 And so if somebody wants that responsibility and they want to put in the time, have at it.

Steve Morreale I want to begin to wind down, 📍 a couple of questions that pique my interest as you're having the conversations, and I presume the conversations continue about your time on the ship crew. 📍  📍  📍 

Can you tell me something that a junior. Sailor or officer taught you about yourself when they ask maybe some pointed questions or were looking for some clarification 📍 where like you understand like, wow, I never thought of that, that ever happened.

Mike Abrashoff 📍  📍  📍 Oh, all the time. But the one that made the biggest impact on me was I was talking to a sailor and he says, captain, this ship is like a tree full of monkeys. 📍 He said, you're the monkey at the top of the tree on every branch. There's different levels of monkeys, 📍 and we're the monkeys in the bottom branch.

He said, whenever you look down from the top of the tree, all you ever see are smiling faces coming back at you. 📍  📍 When we look up from the bottom branch, we have an entirely different view of the organization. When he said that to me, I put myself in his boots and I looked up and I, you're right. 📍 All I see is assholes. Assholes. So then it hit me. I've got a multicultural workforce. I've got a multi-generational workforce, 📍 and each group speaks a different language. You don't speak to a 70-year-old the same way you speak to a 25-year-old. 📍  📍  📍 It requires different communication skills. And what this sailor taught me was that I need.

To communicate to each group in their language about where we're going and why it's in their own best interest. 📍 Just like your officers need to communicate to the citizens who have different backgrounds in their language, 📍 and that's how you connect with 'em, and that's how you gain their trust. 📍  📍  📍 And so what I made a special effort to do was.

To tailor the way I communicate so that I could reach each group on the ship in their language. 

Steve Morreale And I think that also, you hear, we hear all the time when I'm dealing with police officials or corrections officials, 📍 the generational differences and their views on work that are much different. 📍  📍 And I, I actually have a ladder, I call it the ladder of life.

 And what it simply means is you have 20 something, 30 something, 40 something, 50 something, and 60 something as an organization. 📍 Each one looks at work different. Each one wants them to conform to my way of thinking. It just doesn't work anymore. 📍 Doesn't see you shaking in your head. It doesn't. 📍 So I understand that lesson very, very well. I appreciate you telling us that. 

Mike Abrashoff If I could interject Steve, please. Last week I spoke at an LNG plant in Louisiana. To supervisors and above, 📍 and you mentioned corrections O officers. 📍  📍 That's what brought this up to me. A young man came up to me afterwards and said, I really liked your book. It made an impact on my life.

I read it two years ago when I was in prison, and in 25 years nobody's ever said that to me. 📍 And here, this kid is a frontline supervisor at an LNG plant and he says my book helped him. 📍 And so if you ask me what drives me, it's reaching a young man like that. 📍  📍  📍 Yeah. That's where the satisfaction comes from and that's why I continue to do what I do.

Steve Morreale 📍 Another book in you? 

Mike Abrashoff  You know, I've said everything I've needed to say. Yeah. 📍  📍  📍 Now it's just, yeah. 

Steve Morreale But what about the stories, Mike? I mean, you sit and you talk with people. You are doing exactly the same thing. You can't tell me any different that when you're with audiences that you're picking, you're asking, you're questioning, you're trying to understand them, and how they did it.

📍 Applied to you and what can I learn from you? I can't believe that's not in your character. 📍 And so are there stories out there that would help you to reinforce because you have such a voice? 📍  📍  📍 

Mike Abrashoff Well, thank you for saying that. And I've been fortunate over the last 25 years, I give about 80 to a hundred speeches a year.

📍 I've spoken to every industry in this great country, government, private sector, nonprofit. 📍  📍  📍 I have a unique. Perspective. And I was talking to a four star general just two weeks ago, and he's thinking about retiring. He wants to write a book, and he was picking my brain and I said to him, I'm speaking to an HVAC company next week.

📍 And he said, well, what does HVAC mean? And it's all heating, ventilation, air conditioning. 📍 And so I realized over the years, I pick up a lingo that I didn't plan to. 📍  📍  📍 It's very broad. It's very broad. So if I were to write another. Book, it would be about what I learned from that broad spectrum 📍 of the economy.

Steve Morreale I think that's important. 📍  📍 Last question, Mike, and thank you so much for being here with us. If you had the chance to go back in time, talk to somebody who did not get to talk to may have passed, would that person be and what would you   📍 talk about? 

Mike Abrashoff I guess it would be to have that conversation with my father, because I don't know about you, but I never told my family what I was doing in the Navy 📍 and I was in the Persian Gulf, the Arabian Gulf.

📍  📍  📍 Now the president just signed the directive. I heard that. Yeah. The Arabian Gulf. So I was in the Arabian Gulf a hundred miles south of. Kuwait, the morning Saddam Hussein invaded. 📍 And, um, that first three or four months until all the other forces came were the most dangerous 📍 and we're dumb shits just doing our job every day, trying to keep from getting blown out of the water.

📍 But I never realized the impact that it had on the families back home who didn't get the word and didn't know what was happening to us. 📍 And it wasn't until my father read it, your ship, he said, I had no idea. 📍  📍 That this is what you were doing. And so I wish I could have gone back and probably had better conversations with my father about what I was doing, and I, he probably could have given me some of his wisdom.

📍 So it was an asset that I probably didn't utilize properly. 

Steve Morreale Michael, I just saw a bit of emotion. Got it. Because of your dad and because of those things. 📍 And I've had similar feelings in my mind because I did not have a great relationship, my father. 📍  📍 And I know that's the case I apologize for, for bringing you down that road, but I am very, very honored.

That you would be willing to share that. No, I'm not trying to diminish that. 📍  📍  📍 To diminish that, but the emotion just leaked out of you. And that's just life, you know, and, and that's an interesting piece and I'm leave it. There 📍 are things that we saw, things that we've done in our lives, police or military, that we keep in a little box.

📍  📍  📍 That was one of them right there. And that and unusual times those little. Those little emotions leak back from 15, 20, 50 years. Isn't that true? Exactly. Isn't that true? 

Mike Abrashoff📍 Yep, a hundred percent. What's your closing advice to young people who are in policing looking to try to figure out, 📍 do I just stay an officer or do I move.

📍  📍  📍 Do I take on the responsibility of being responsible, not just for me, but for others? 📍 What do you say to them? I can't tell 'em what to do. They have to figure out what's best for them. 📍  📍  📍 So I'll digress. I've got a sister who has a PhD in nursing and she was a fantastic teacher and she wanted to be chair of the nursing department.

She was miserable and she called me every, she called my dad. 📍 Every night crying. And then she would call me crying about how miserable she was being chair of the department. I've been there. 📍 I've been there. Then I asked her, why do you want to be chair? 📍 And she says, it pays $10,000 more a year. I said, Donna, that's no reason to be chair of the department.

📍 Give it up. Go back to teaching. Do what you're happiest at. 📍  📍 So I can't tell anybody to wanna lead. It's what you think you would be happy at and whether you do a good job at it. If you're doing it for the money, you're probably not doing it for the right reason. 📍  📍  📍

Steve Morreale Well, we've had the pleasure and the honor of talking to Mike Aof, who was the author of It's Your Ship 📍 and Is Still on the Speaking Circuit.

Steve Morreale You can reach out to him on LinkedIn. 📍Mike, so much thank you for what you did, what you've done, and what you've shared. I appreciate so much. 📍 I've used it. You tell some great stories, but they're real and that's the most important. 📍  📍 Mike Abrashoff And to your audience, I have the tremendous amount of respect for you. I know you're doing a tough job, but the silent majority are there to support you.

That's great. 📍 That's a great way to end. This is Steve Morreale. You've been listening to The CopDoc Podcast. Another episode is in the can. 📍 I want to thank you for reaching out. 📍 There's so many of you that are reaching out and telling me some very, very interesting things and honest things about what they're gaining from listening to the guests here 📍 talking about leadership.

 Outro📍  📍 So take care. Stay safe. See you at the next episode. Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.