Chief John Fisher - The Art of Police Leadership: Coaching Through Crisis and Change

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 8 - Episode 153

What happens when a basketball coach becomes a police chief? Chief John Fisher of the Bedford, Massachusetts, Police Department brings a refreshingly human perspective to law enforcement leadership, replacing command-and-control with connection and coaching.

Fisher's journey from U.S. Coast Guard service through the ranks of Nashua, NH Police Department to his current role reveals a leadership style fundamentally shaped by his parallel career coaching high school basketball for over 30 seasons. "Coaching happens in split seconds," he explains, "but you still have to fall back on a coaching mentality. Same way we do in law enforcement."

At the heart of Fisher's approach is what he calls "the coaching sandwich" – opening with value recognition, suggesting improvement, and closing with encouragement. This technique acknowledges the reality that most police interactions involve people experiencing "their worst possible moment," requiring officers skilled in human connection more than tactical proficiency. When taking command of new departments, Fisher began by listening rather than dictating, meeting individually with officers to understand their perspectives before implementing change.

Fisher challenges traditional notions of police authority, recognizing that today's departments include officers spanning from their 20s to 60s, each generation requiring different leadership approaches. His philosophy emphasizes critical thinking through questions rather than commands, preparing teams for crisis through "what if" scenarios, and building community connections that transcend enforcement.

Whether you're in law enforcement, leadership, or simply interested in organizational culture, Fisher's insights offer valuable lessons on mentoring the next generation, navigating institutional change, and maintaining optimism while facing challenging realities. Ready to rethink what effective leadership looks like? Listen now and discover why Fisher believes "I am more optimistic now than I ever have been in my career."

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Chief John Fisher
• 7:20 Career Trajectory and Community Policing
• 13:46 Leadership Style and Coaching Mentality
• 21:32 Leading Different Generations in Policing
• 27:15 Building Culture Through Questions
• 33:40 Preparing for Crisis Before It Happens
• 40:22 Making Friends for the Department
• 47:13 Lifelong Learning and Professional Growth

Transcript

 Intro-Outro Announcement

00:03

Welcome to the CopDoc podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on the Cop Talk podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:32

Hey everybody, it's Steve Morreale here again on The CopDoc Podcast Today. I'm coming from Boston and I'm going about 25 miles away, just outside of Boston, to Bedford, Massachusetts. We're going to be talking to Chief John Fisher, a person, a friend, that I have known since the 90s. I'll tell you about that. He is now the chief of the Bedford, Massachusetts. We're going to be talking to Chief John Fisher, a person, a friend, that I have known since the 90s. I'll tell you about that. He is now the chief of the Bedford Police. He used to be with the Nashua Police Department. He came down, crossed over the border and came to Massachusetts, became the chief in Carlisle, right outside of Concord, and now in Bedford. So I want to say first, hello there. We finally got together, John. 

 John Fisher Guest

01:02

Thanks for having me, Steve, it's great to see you 

Steve Morreale Host

01:04

Same here and I'm so, so happy. What I want to tell people who listen you know worldwide that Bedford is just adjacent to both Lexington and Concord, which I would say is the cradle of the American Revolution. There's an awful lot of history there, as you well know. John and I met a long time ago and I'll tell you a story that I've never told on this show and that when I was with the Drug Enforcement Administration, one of my bosses in Washington called me to a conference and it was the National Crime Prevention Center, and I met with the six presidents of the crime prevention officers for New England and the idea was, hey, community policing is starting, should we start something? And the boss brought me back, brought me to the Department of Justice and said we're going to end up getting you some money and we're going to create a regional training center on community policing.

I met John. John came up representing his police department and we've been colleagues ever since. He's trained behind me at different trainings and a solid guy. So, john, why don't you tell us about your trajectory? When did you start policing? And, by the way, a basketball coach here that we're talking to, and I think that's so unique. So go ahead, john, tell people about yourself. 

John Fisher Guest

02:07

Oh, thanks a million. So you know I was really fortunate I was able to get a Coast Guard scholarship to college. So when I was an undergraduate in college I was in the United States Coast Guard, did two and a half years afterward to fulfill my commitment to the Coast Guard and then was fortunate enough to get picked up by the National Police Department in 1989. Worked there for 22 years Really fortunate to rise through the ranks, obviously, got to work with you and community policing. When I was there, probably six or seven years, our profession grasped what I think was an incredibly important concept but a better way of doing business. So when you know I've talked about milestones, that was a real milestone in both my career and in the way I thought about policing. Obviously I worked in detectives, probably remember I was a street sergeant. I had a couple of other sergeant roles. I was a lieutenant, I got promoted to lieutenant and then eventually captain. 

02:58

When I was a captain at the police department and I had an excellent working relationship with the staff there, I did have the opportunity to come down to Massachusetts and serve as the police chief in Carlisle. Embrace that opportunity. I think you and I spoke before I took the job. I called you when they offered me the job as an authority in law enforcement and you knew much more about policing in the Commonwealth than I do. But policing in the Commonwealth is not that much different than policing in New Hampshire and then through after Carlisle. 

03:26

Actually, toward the end of my time in Carlisle, adjacent community Bedford needed a police chief and I came over here and in the middle there I've done a host of other things. Obviously I coached high school basketball for 30 plus consecutive seasons and stepped away from that two years ago. I miss it every day but my two assistants are both head coaches, one at the high school I coached at, the other at the high school next door. So you know the next generation in coaching is jumping in there, kind of the way our profession goes. And then, as you know, I've had a really good fortune to be able to teach at Roger Williams. I taught criminal justice at Riviera University. I served regionally as the head of the SWAT team for the suburbs of Boston, the 62 cities and towns outside of Boston. When I was in Carlisle I was a 90-10 job. 10% of my time was spent in the region, 90% in Carlisle. So I've had some really nifty opportunities. I'm thankful Our profession's at a good spot and I still like coming to work every day. 

Steve Morreale Host

04:24

So there are a few things that you've already said that I think are so important, and some of the things I want to focus on are culture. You know the police culture as you go from agency to agency to agency. Nashua was a good-sized police department. I was police officer in New Hampshire, on the opposite side, but Nashua, I think, was the second largest police agency in New Hampshire, and then you came to a smaller agency and then a little bit bigger agency, but most agencies, you know, are in the 25 range in America. 

04:52

But what you just said about coaching is that very often and I just saw this on LinkedIn the other day and it was, if you want to know how a person leads, check the family tree, and what that meant was, if you think about the NFL or Major League Baseball or even basketball, what is the offspring of the head coach? In other words, just what you said. It must have been what you did and the belief you had in your assistants that pushed them to a higher level, in essence, to replace you. And the same holds true in policing. In my mind, it's no longer about you and me as a boss. It's about the people that are there and how we develop them and how we identify potential leadership possibilities and give people opportunities. I'm seeing you shake your head. I know you have a very I won't say unique, but a very down-to-earth reasonableness in your leadership style. 

John Fisher Guest

05:38

Tell us about that and how it came to be so I appreciate you mentioning that, because I believe mentoring, succession planning, is incredibly important and I can tell it through a couple of maybe funny stories. When I was leaving Nashua as a captain, I went in to tell the chief of police that I accepted the opportunity in Carlisle and he literally picked up his chair and started to throw it at me and he said this chair was supposed to be yours. Like you are leaving and you're just a few years away from having this seat. And you know we laughed about it afterward at an event that they had for me when I was leaving Nashua, but at the time he was serious because he was a mentor to me in my career, like people like you are. So I think that it's incredibly important to do that. 

06:25

And the second and it sounds incredibly self-serving, but the guy that took over for me at Bishop Gerton High School. I actually probably wasn't really ready to get out of high school coaching. I promised him when he took my assistance, gabe five years before that that if his goal was to become a head high school coach in Division I in New Hampshire and Massachusetts and frankly he was ready so it was time for me to get out of the way. But I've had four of my assistants go on to head coaching successful high school head coaching jobs. They're all still having a blast with it. I feel like that's where both our profession in law enforcement and coaching should be. 

Steve Morreale Host

07:02

So you develop skills, teaching young people to focus on how to improve. I'm talking about your basketball side and I'll bet a lot of that leaks into your police leadership. Is that a fair assessment? 

John Fisher Guest

07:13

That's a completely fair assessment because it's the way I talk. It's the way I talk to our supervisors here I use. Coaching is a lot like any type of learning environment. Coaching happens in split seconds, right, but you still have to fall back on a coaching mentality. Same way we do in law enforcement. When you have a minute, you know the coaching sandwich, right. So the coaching sandwich is you open with a compliment, you talk to the person about their value. So in law enforcement, it's the value to the organization. In coaching, it's the value of the player to the team. And then if you're going to wedge in a change, you're great. But I would always have to use. 

07:47

But, however, I would prefer that it happened this way. So if, if it's a law enforcement application, I prefer it happen this way. If in coaching, the same way, but you've got to close with the pep, right, this is a great profession. I prefer you do it this way. Could you please try to do it that way next time? So law enforcement, coaching, the same way. 

08:06

You're in a huddle. You need to come off the screen a little bit harder. The other players are working to get you the ball. We're going to get you the ball, then you're going to get that three-point shot. The crowd's going to go crazy. We're all on the same page. Ready Break. You know that's the way it goes, my career and I prefer to be spoken to that way, like the way you've always spoken to me when you're looking for something a little different. Back when we were doing curriculums and you led the group and we were redoing the lesson plans down at Roger Williams, it was all right, this is what we're going to do. I would prefer if you do this and that's going to be great at the other end. I think everybody likes to be spoken to that way. 

Steve Morreale Host

08:49

And it's sincerely helped me in both law enforcement and coaching. That's so special to me. There are two things that I've been espousing in trainings that I've been doing, and that is let's start focusing on corrective rather than punitive wherever possible. All people make mistakes, whether it's faculty, it's police officers. They make mistakes, some of them you know it's head and heart mistakes. But giving them hope. I believe in that. You give people hope. 

09:07

This didn't look good on camera, right? Somebody looking at it later on is not going to look favorably on the police department and you represent this police department, but I know you can do better. So it's that same sort of mentality that you're correcting. Rather than I'm giving you two days off for you stupid. I'm not saying that is in time and place for that, but I also think that the command and control that has been used for many years, that we experienced that command and control. I'm the chief, I got the bars, I got the stars. You're going to do what I say is passe at this point in time and we're leading with different generations. 

09:39

And, john, I know that you've experienced this in my mind and I think talking with you helps to pull that out, and that is I show I don't even think I have it here, but I show it a document that shows a ladder and the ladder has rungs and each ladder is a 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 number on it and what that means is we have 20 somethings, 30 somethings, 40 somethings, 50 somethings and in some cases, 60 somethings working for the same organization. Right, we all have different views of the work that we're supposed to do and instantly creates conflict the 20-somethings working for a 30-something or 40-something sergeant, but the 40-somethings working for a 50 or 60, I'm seeing you smile, you understand. So it's going to cause conflict, but we have to believe in the people that you're drawing to your agency. Tell me what that conjures in your mind. 

John Fisher Guest

10:23

What it conjures in my mind is that each generation has their strengths. So you and I, we're kind of the tail end of the duties and responsibilities. The reason that I got into law enforcement was in the military, was toward the tail end, and my mentors, my grandparents, my parents were. You're good at it. This is important, you know. Serving our country is important. Being a police officer is important. 

10:45

Really, if you swing through all the, you know and I know you spend more time than I do talking about generational leadership but the young people that are coming in right now are still enthusiastic. They want to learn, but they're wired a little bit differently and if we fail to recognize that in law enforcement, if we fail to recognize and you just alluded to it is the carrot and the stick. However, you want to use that analogy they're not going to respond to being in the doghouse the way you and I did. When I point to my chairs, somebody's coming in, I say you're not in the true chair, and they don't even remember what that's like. Well, because when you and I came on the job, if you were in the doghouse, you sat in the chair and then the boss would basically just bark at you for whatever you did wrong. 

11:27

Chew your ass out and then get out right. Number one. That was never great, so we've gotten better in leadership. The second thing is holy cats, that wouldn't fly these days. You'd have a disgruntled employee, they'd feel insulted and, frankly, we can be better. This generation and I've got seven officers that have less than two years experience on currently working with the police department. When I'm talking to the sergeants and when I'm talking to them, I really, really, really fall back on the coaching thing. I might throw out two things. I was listening to you on the radio. I go to the roll call. I saw you. 

11:58

This is fantastic. This generation, I think, needs to be acknowledged, and for the right reasons, Like, I think. When you and I got on the job, I wanted to be invisible. The chief told me at the time like if I don't hear your name at a staff meeting for three years, I'll know you're good. 

Steve Morreale Host

12:12

In other words, you're not getting into trouble, go out and do your job. 

John Fisher Guest

12:16

You know I want to see a laundry list of tickets come in Like everything was kind of numbers driven ad oriented. 

12:22

Yeah, I like listen to the radio and someone speaking clearly and they go to a home with a person who's having an emotional issue and a lot of our crisis we deal with here in Bedford. And mental health we have just down the road. We have the largest VA hospital in New England. We have Hanscom Air Force Base. We have several facilities in town that are home to people who are mentally ill or suffering from different things. 

12:46

And when I hear someone do an exceptional job, like that's a moment to talk to them about what it is and that they're doing a fantastic job. And I see them. I see you, I hear you. You're doing great. You know, sometimes I remind them the only talk I have. So when you and I got on the job, when I got on the job, the talk I had was that talk from the chief. Then it was the pep talk of don't ever let anybody get the better of you. You know, stay in shape. 

13:10

Alcohol gets all cops in trouble. Don't drink alcohol. Like it was kind of a speech, it was a different type of thing. When I talk to folks and I talk to every single new employee I just say this is a job where you're going to be unbelievably appreciated, but a lot of times people are going to forget to say thank you. I'm going to say thank you to you now. 

13:26

But here's our hierarchy. At the Bedford Police Department, we think about what's best for our citizens and our guests in Bedford. The second thing we think about is what's better for all of the people we work with, the women and men we work with here at the Bedford Police Department. Then the third thing we worry about here is it's either good for the community, good for our guests, it's good for everybody else. 

13:50

The idea that I'm least excited about is an idea that only helps you. Does that make sense? And you know, of course they all admit that then. But in our job, steve, you remember this there's a lot of bummer days, a lot of days when things don't go well, but there's some amazing highs too. 

14:05

I know you and I are both a fan of the book of questions. Right, would you lead a life that has amazing highs and amazing lows, or would you rather lead a life that has zero risk? You'll never be down the dumps, but you'll also never experience the amazing highs and our profession offers both Got to be able to embrace that. I'm speaking in a lot of my coaching cues, but that stuff, it's so important to me. And then go back to my books that are on my shelf here. That I refer to are a lot of the same books and a lot of the same thought processes that have helped me in my career. Obviously, that bookshelf is much bigger now than when I started, but I've added to it and I still think that there's validity to a lot of these things. 

Steve Morreale Host

14:45

By the way, we're talking to John Fisher. He's now the chief in Bedford, massachusetts, and I find it fascinating that we're talking about this, because the key to this in a lot of ways, I'm often saying you know, I'm involved in command, college and places and sergeants and managers, and I'm saying look, stop and consider what you are. I guess you have to be a supervisor first, but find opportunities to lead. Lead your people to a different place. Lead your people to think differently. Lead your people to do the job better. Lead your people so that they're not afraid to come forward with potential ideas Because you're not on the street. 

15:18

They are every day and if you refuse to listen to what they have to say, I think you're being a subpar leader. Actually, you're being a manager. That's my own opinion, but coaching and mentoring become two extremely important elements of the leadership process in my mind, and leadership is a process. But what I want to ask you is this let's go back to Carlisle for a minute. You had been a captain and I want to go back to what that chief had said about this. Chair was for you. Here's a question that popped into my mind instantly Did you know that? 

John Fisher Guest

15:48

I felt like I did. You're an agency that size, so 200 cops, nationally accredited agency. As a leader, you have to be careful, because you want to mentor but not show favoritism. You want to encourage but you don't want to be the person that say he had spent so much time with me that everybody gets the impression. 

Steve Morreale Host

16:08

Well, the other captains get ignored. You're absolutely right. 

John Fisher Guest

16:15

There's seven other captains and well, it's John's job anyway, and I don't know that he meant like that I was going to be before one of them, or whatever it was but he had his eye on you. 

16:20

I'd worked for him in a variety of bureaus. So when I was doing crash reconstruction I worked for him. When I was in detectives I worked for him and, really importantly, when he was a lieutenant on the street, I was a sergeant on the street. So our split-second decision-making. I looked to him a lot. So he's a former Marine but a high level of education also. So not that Marine Corps is always black and white, but he really had a command presence right. I admired him. Afterwards, of course, I took it as as a compliment. When it happened I was a little bit shocked. I'm like, oh nuts, I didn't want to complain. You know I did. 

16:55

The reason I took it was family reasons. You know, when I called you, I explained that to you, right? So Carlisle is an exclusive community. All right, they wanted somebody. It's so hard to say this without sounding like a speak your mind. Speak your mind. Somebody with an academic, with academic credentials right, because that was an ivy league select board, right? They liked that I graduated number one at UNH in my class during my master's degree. They liked my thesis they liked, they liked that type of stuff honestly,Steve. 

17:23

they weren't super excited about the fact that I was a swat team person. When I was in Nashville I had extensive detective experience that spent a lot of time in uniform. They liked the fact that I could write, didn't mind speaking, that I was teaching at a college, but anyway I did it for financial reasons. The bottom line is my kids, my guys, were heading to high school and soon to college, and this job paid a lot of freaking money. 

Steve Morreale Host

17:47

Well, not only that, when you left New Hampshire, you're going to get a pension, so you've got that. 

John Fisher Guest

17:50

I got a pension. 

Steve Morreale Host

17:51

I understand, I'm in the same boat. I want to know. I want to stop you for a moment, I want to keep going as you walk into Carlisle, because what I'm curious about and I would, I hope the listeners would be curious about that so you walk in, you're a captain, you're not a chief. You're coming to a smaller department Knowing no one had to know there was something. Why did they hire an outsider and not somebody inside, and what's he going to do? So you have to deal with that dynamic and I'd be curious to know how did you begin to assimilate and understand the culture of this place before you put your mark on it, before you pushed it in a direction? What kind of listening did you do? How did you sit and talk with your command staff to get them on the right page? Did you feel like an imposter at first? I shouldn't be 100 percent. 

18:36

OK, thank you, I mean that's honest. 

John Fisher Guest

18:38

And I absolutely did, absolutely did, Steve. I felt like I was coming into someone else's house and you know I think that it's really really important to handle that correctly. 

Steve Morreale Host

18:53

Can you liken it to going? 

John Fisher Guest

18:53

from one team to another. Well, I like that. So I switched and you probably remember this right. I switched from a high school that was two towns away. I was the head coach. I had unfortunately just lost in the state championship. The year before I coached a player that ended up covering Camelo Anthony in the Sweet 16. I had a team and then I went to the high school where my kids were going to go it was right around the corner from my house and they saw me. That entire team, that entire school saw me as the guy who would just wax them three years in a row. It just that was the way it was right. But it was mostly because of the players, not because of me. 

19:23

But anyway, going to Carlisle was a little bit like that, but starting at the top, respecting seniority, respecting like that, but starting at the top, respecting seniority, respecting people that were there. So I started with a senior person. I started with a lieutenant, sat him down, said what I'm really interested in is number one learning something about you personally. I saw you at my swearing in but I don't know anything about you Like what's important to you, what's important to you personally, you family person, and get that and go all right. What do you see is something we should do with this agency? Because there's going to be a little bit of a honeymoon period here, right, and I want to take advantage of that for our agency. 

19:58

What do you see? One thing we can do, then I close it out with all right, how would you do it? Because you've pointed that out, that means you probably also have a solution. How would you do that? And I had that conversation top to bottom and with everybody, so I think that helped. And then, honestly, Steve, it's understanding the pace of an organization and what's going on, being socially aware, using your social IQ, not just your intellect, like I know how to investigate cases, so you'll do every case this way. No, it's understanding. When can we do some of this stuff? How can I implement changes that nobody brought up? I'm going to do all their stuff first. That's reasonable, plus, a ton of that stuff made sense. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:41

And probably easily achievable. And there's a win in your column. 

John Fisher Guest

20:44

Totally a win. So probably, Steve, if I had to think back at the first thing I changed, which was well, I did change one thing out of the gate I got rid of white shirts because I wanted to look like one of the members. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:56

I got out of the-. Oh, you mean that the bosses had white shirts? Bosses had white shirts. It was a differentiation. I get you. Yeah, two people had white shirts. You don't really look good in white anyway. 

John Fisher Guest

21:03

Oh for the love of people. I'm a bald. He wears eyeglasses Like the last thing I need is a white shirt to blind him have a pocket protector. Right, no, but seriousness, we did that stuff. I bet you it was six months before we started talking about things that I thought were important. Like all right, so we fell off the wagon here on the accreditation and we don't have our state accreditation right now, and they were like, oh, I'm like, well, let's get that ramped up. 

Steve Morreale Host

21:32

And that was nothing anybody brought up, but anyway, you get the idea. The idea is you weed some of your ideas with them. 

John Fisher Guest

21:37

Yes, plus, I hope that they viewed me as oh, he took this honeymoon for a ride. We got a little bit more dough. We got a couple of new cars out of the deal. Their cruiser fleet was horrendous because there were a lot of folks there that were very, very concerned about cars and V8s and things like that. There's more than one way to approach those things. We switched to cars that had 864 technology. Police officers got better cars. It was simple things, but it was more the way we did them. Well, it was investing. 

22:07

We took that honeymoon for a ride and they're all like hey, we did this together. Yes, we have new leadership, but we did this. You know, we're able to advance the ball a little bit and it wasn't big stuff, Steve, they were good. They are good. I was over there yesterday having a cup of coffee with the chief after a meeting we had here. We had something to talk about work-wise, but I still it was good. Cops there do good work and beautiful community. 

Steve Morreale Host

22:28

What you started to talk about is you're bringing people in, you're asking them questions, you're getting to know them and really, in essence, you're leading with questions and so presumably leading by example. Has that begun to rub off and I don't mean it on purposefully, but has it rubbed off on your command staff, in other words, trying to coach them, that this might be a better way of interacting, allowing your people to be problem identifiers? Bring it to us, don't make it be a surprise. If you know there's something that needs to be addressed, bring it to us. Right, we're not going to yell at you. You don't have to yell at people, except in extreme circumstances. And, by the way, I understand too. When we're talking with John Fisher from the Bedford Massachusetts Police Department, it seems to me that, again, I'm not underestimating that there are people who wear stripes, bars and stars, that have positions of authority that at times, in certain circumstances, will have to make tactical decisions, will have to be decisive, but it doesn't have to be on a daily basis. 

John Fisher Guest

23:27

Full contact environment. Steve, that part's never going to change, but you and I both know that that is such a slim part of our jobs that's right now. Do you have to be good at that abso darn lutely, and there has to be a piece of you. Any successful police officer that leads in crisis has to be able to take charge in those environments. That's the environment where I know I keep going back to some one-liners that have helped me. That's where a good decision made with brevity will always be better than the perfect decision made too late. So we've got to empower those leaders, even our young officers that are in critical situations, that when you come in and you're going to talk to them about potentially a better way to handle something, what I'm going to lead with is you made a good decision when pressed. You didn't make the perfect decision too late. Like, I'm sure there's some perfect decision that someone would look at 20 years from now and tell both of us Now let's talk about maybe the better way to do this. 

Steve Morreale Host

24:24

I love it that what you're suggesting. I do it with students and I've certainly done it with people that have worked for me, and that is let's make this a teachable moment. Yeah, work for me, and that is let's make this a teachable moment. Here's what happened and again, teachable moments don't have to be based on something that happened in your agency. There are things that happened somewhere else that you should be bringing forth to your people to say look what happened five towns away. Look what happened two states away. What can we do? How would we have handled it? How can we handle it better than maybe they did Not? Monday morning quarterbacking, but how do we get ourselves mentally prepared to deal with a situation like that? Is that something you work on with your agencies? 

John Fisher Guest

25:01

I can probably describe my mornings to you, Steve, and then that helps frame how I look at it right. So, regardless of views on my way to work in the morning, I listen to the news. I listen to the news on various stations when I get to work if I've not done it before, because I work out most mornings if I've not done it before I immediately take a look at the Boston Globe, because that's a statewide newspaper here in the Commonwealth and they tend to really cover the news, local news, regional news in the Boston area, which is very applicable to us. I see what's going on Now, whether it had to do with law enforcement or whether it had to do with something socially and we could talk about that another day. Seeing problems before they could happen and how they would impact law enforcement, I think helps us. Seeing the news, seeing the bigger picture, checking out things that are going on and then looking at our logs from the Bedford Police Department and understanding what occurred in the last shift gives me a framework for the day. And then when I'm talking to staff that are on, you know whether it's a weekly staff meeting or whether it's just me going down to the lieutenants or the sergeant's office and hey, did you see this? And thinking about how could that impact us and what could we do better. If that happened here tomorrow, what would you do? 

26:18

I mean during these times, Steve? I mean we even had some protests here last month, the month before. You know, during these contentious times, entering a situation without a plan is the worst way. Probably much more now is our job in law enforcement, as community caretaking. I think that when people are in crisis, when they're wanting to utilize their First Amendment rights and understanding our boundaries and how to do this and how to talk to people, there are so many lessons that you can walk through in your mind by just listening to the news, reading the newspaper, deciding how you're going to program your brain to lead and speak. But in our profession, Steve, if you haven't practiced it, haven't gone through it. Darn, the worst time is the first time it happens to you. A homicide happens in your town, a fatal car crash? 

Steve Morreale Host

27:08

A suicide with an officer. 

John Fisher Guest

27:10

I mean you want to sing someone peacefully protesting and then one of the extremist groups shows up and starts antagonizing people, because that's happened to me too, on this watch, of course. How do you deal with those folks? How do you? How do you calm them? How do you stop a giant physical dodgeball game from happening in the middle of your main street? You know if you haven't gone through it. 

Steve Morreale Host

27:32

Well, you're talking about what ifs, and I think, intentionally you're leading with questions, right, yeah, and I believe in that tremendously. And so, and I think what you're doing is developing and this is not a word, I use it always in academia, I rarely use it in policing but what you're doing by asking them what would we do, how might we handle it? Think about, let's talk about it the later, but later, and I don't listen. I very much like the idea that sometimes I will walk into somebody and say hey, I heard this, I'd be curious to talk about your perspective on that. But just think about that and be prepared. You know when we talk. In other words, I give them time to think about it rather than making them defensive, and you understand that whenever possible, especially if they're not like an ISTJ, if they need some processing moments. 

John Fisher Guest

28:17

Amen. 

Steve Morreale Host

28:18

That's exactly right. That exactly I use the term. Do you think to talk or talk to think? I'm a talk to think. I'm just starting my mouth going and I'll figure it out at the other end. Other people want time to think so that they don't sound stupid and they have time to craft. I stupid and they have time to craft. I see this in class after class after class and when I say not ready, I'll be back, invariably when I come back, they don't want to be embarrassed the second time and they've had time to think about it. I'll say jot something down, but you understand what I'm suggesting. But what I didn't say is you're asking them to be critical thinkers, which is so important. 

John Fisher Guest

28:50

Yeah, because most times I don't want to provide, I like to go last. So when you lead with questions, right, you go last. So whether you're doing like what you're talking about, you know my joke that I used when I was at Roger Williams with you for seven and a half years. My first job actually was a high school trigonometry teacher. Right, I filled in for a teacher, but I went out on maternity leave. 

Steve Morreale Host

29:11

Trigonometry John, you're smarter than me. 

John Fisher Guest

29:18

I know, but I use that as a joke, right? I only did it for a few months, right, and I was a senior in college and they needed some, and it paid 65 bucks a day, which was a ton of money back then. My classes were in the evenings, so, anyway. So I tell them listen, you're looking for class interactions because I'm an extrovert, right, I'm looking for class interactions, but you pose something that takes a little bit the process. And my line back to them was listen, I taught high school trigonometry. I can stand here all day in perfect silence and I'm comfortable because I know what I think the answer might be. But I want you to take some time to think about the answer might be Pull one of those three by five cards out, jot something down. I'm going to go on to something else over here, but I'm going to come back to this in a few minutes and I'd like you to throw something out, so I pick on myself. 

Intro-Outro Announcement

29:56

There's plenty of ammunition right. 

John Fisher Guest

29:57

I've been married for almost 30 years. I know all my faults right. If you don't, she'll tell you Right, right, and Judy is very good and very humble about it. Yeah, I think too, I'm sure, I'm sure, but anyway, she's an elementary school teacher, so she's used to with wise acres like me. I think what you're talking about is exactly that is not trying to have somebody regurgitate something out so that you come up with whatever comes off the seat of their pants. But they have some time to process. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:21

And the other thing I want to try to draw out is you said it, you intimated him a few minutes ago and that police have power, we have authority. The training is constant. You never know what you're walking into. Unfortunately, we have become the social workers for our communities, because I truly believe that as a society, we have pushed that way down. You don't have people from the state available to you 24-7. We're the only ones. But the fact of the matter is that arresting people using that authority is a minimal part of our job, right? 

Intro-Outro Announcement

30:53

Unless you're on a felony squad. 

Steve Morreale Host

30:54

It may be 10% of the week or less. Fair statement. 

John Fisher Guest

30:57

Oh, totally fair, we can't arrest our way out of most things that are occurring. I mean, do you have to be prepared to able to understand arrest without a warrant? We just have to recite it. You probably remember this. You went to the New Hampshire police academy. You had to be able to recite word for word arrest without a warrant. Start to finish, recite the statute out loud you can arrest. I can go through it. I can still go through to this day, right, but that's such a small part of our job. 

Steve Morreale Host

31:22

That's the point but I want to bring this up. Look, you know what happens and it just happened because my neighbor's niece has just joined your department a while back and so you come out of the academy full of piss and vinegar and out they come, and they come to you and you know, in a lot of ways, what they are training them to do is to be ready defensive tactics, guns, driving, handcuffing, all of that kind of stuff. And then you have to come in and say okay, kid, I know that's a part of the job, but that's not all there is. Let's focus. 

31:50

Exactly what you say here's the. You're smiling, I'm sure, because if you don't have that question to calm it down, sailor, right, then you're going to end up with some problems. And when we first come on the job, I mean I got a siren, I hit the button, cars get out of the way, they stop for me. I mean it's a, it's an amazing opportunity, but you think that's not all, it is kid. So tell me that conversation you have with new officers and setting expectations that I think are so important. 

John Fisher Guest

32:13

So I can give you that and I can also talk about an example that for somebody who didn't work out and I won't say what agency or what amount of time and why that happened right, and that is. 

32:24

I go back to that hierarchy right, but one of the things that we get the opportunity to talk about is that the academy doesn't necessarily spend enough time on, is that we are seeing people on their worst possible day in all likelihood right, whether they're part of an environment that occurred, they're a victim, they're a suspect, or if they were just stopped on a traffic stop because they were speeding or their car wasn't inspected or they forgot to get it registered, or whoever was in charge of getting the car registered didn't get it registered, but that just created the worst possible day, because now they have somebody standing in front of them. 

32:58

And working with someone at their worst possible moment is a skill set that it takes time to do. But, you know, be conscious of it. You know, I know that's a big deal these days, those t-shirts that say, like everybody's going through something right. There's a way to remind people that unfortunately, in the digital age, we don't spend enough time understanding empathy, sympathy, who really is a threat to you. You know what I mean. Or when do you really have to take charge? Interrupt someone, tell them they're wrong, that stuff, that it takes a while, but those are such important learning moments and let me tell you a story about someone that I had in my office that left without being a police officer, right? 

33:37

So being an FTO, look like a million bucks in uniform and could shoot and could recite back laws. But they're FTOs and they went through four of them. Every person said that they had no ability to work with people at their worst possible moments. So these are people that weren't going to get arrested. They're in crisis and they just if I use some of the words they used I'm going to give. I'll probably end up giving that away and I don't want to do that, but that was a skill set that they did not possess and that can be developed. It can be coached up a little bit, but if you're three months into four different people working with you and every single one of them says that they have questions about your ability to be compassionate and to work with people at their worst possible moment, I can tell you that the places that I've worked that will not work. There might be some I don't know military base somewhere where everything has to be black and white and you're going to yell at people and point a gun all day. 

34:36

Well, I've never worked at one of those agencies. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:38

I don't want to work there. Frankly, I mean, even at DEA that was not the case. 

John Fisher Guest

34:42

I understand yeah you dealt with some of the most egregious felons in the world. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:47

And our guns were always out. But I understand, but only when we needed them, and that's in all honesty that's where people fall down. 

John Fisher Guest

34:53

I think when people look at our profession they're worried about oh boy, I don't know if they can be a police officer, because I'm not sure They've never shot a gun before. No one gives a flying banana when you get to the police academy or when you get to an agency. That's an eye-hand coordination thing. We can teach them, we'll work on it, yeah. But the mindset about when you're working with someone at their worst possible moment, that's a bigger deal. I honestly could care less if someone has any experience with firearms, if no one in their family was ever a police officer, no one in their family was ever in the military. We're so far away from that Thankfully, Steve, that we've recognized that that skill set we can teach. Right, I can teach you to look sharp. 

35:28

If taking care of yourself is not part of your profession, that's a separate conversation but, I've spent a lot of time talking to folks about taking care of yourselves physically, emotionally, in diet, in rest. That's another huge challenge in our profession right now. I think that many people that come on the job that probably fell down when you and I were there are people who never got that down, like they never recognize the importance of rest. They never recognize the importance of having friends outside the profession. That's a big one, you know. You don't have to be a locker room hero. Give a flying banana about that. What I want to somebody come in and tell me something that's important to them outside of this profession. You know, I know a pick and extreme. If you spend all your free time ironing uniform, polishing your badge and rubbing your gun, you're not going to be successful in this job. You're either going to have a short career or you're going to do something so bad. 

Steve Morreale Host

36:21

First of all, what I didn't say is your Coast Guard experience is so important and thank you for your service. And I will tell you, there's a little bit of envy because I had put in but they weren't taking on a lot of people. 

36:30

I ended up in the Army get the flying banana out of here is something new to me. Good job, Good job. What I'm wondering is is some of the things that you're asking people who come on and your lieutenants and sergeants to make sure that your people make a friend for the department here and there, Because to me that's a missing piece. 

John Fisher Guest

36:55

Oh, holy cats. I'm looking out the front window and our banner that's out in the front is our open house. That's happening next Saturday. There's events like that but when I go to roll call sometimes and you know some of the more seasoned cops will pick on me. We'll exchange a couple of jokes, but you know I'll ask about people they know in the community and what's going on so the young officers can see all right it's not, it's really not. 

Steve Morreale Host

37:18

We're not against them, it's not an us versus them thing. 

John Fisher Guest

37:21

I know that you and I know the peel line as much as anything and I don't want to regurgitate that to them, but there's a new way of saying it. Like it's so darn important you never know when you're going to make a new friend. 

37:33

You know it's a funny thing. That's occurred because we've had cruiser cameras here in bed for a long, long time, so our folks are used to being on camera, really being reminded for lack of a better word that you always have got to put your best foot forward. I think that a unintended consequence of the body-worn camera and cruiser cameras is that our officers realize, all right, this person is not really, they're just having their worst possible moment. They were flying, they were driving way too fast, but they were having their worst possible moment and there was a story to go to it, because you know, back in the battle list when you and I were there, the fanny reaming would start when you got to the B pillar, all the way up to the window down, and what the hell were you, you know you might use a swear word Like you know. 

38:17

frankly, if you can make it through a career without swearing right now, I think that's good. I have all my one-liners that I use in the instead of swearings, because I came up through a different area where I'm sure I used inappropriate language at some time or another. 

38:31

But in any event, I think, that there are lots of friends to be made. 

38:34

I mean, we've got this town goes from, you know, 16,000 people to sleeping here to 50,000 people during the day, because this is a I describe it to people who don't know it's a breathe in town. Carlisle was breathe out 8,000 to 10,000 people, most of whom were working in Boston suburbs, highest concentration of college professors in the Commonwealth, highest concentration of attorneys, many medical doctors it's just the texture that the town had and it was a breathe out. So, like you get 10 o'clock in the morning in Carlisle on a Tuesday, you'd be lucky to run into a couple of people when in Bedford it goes from low to all of a sudden we've got traffic everywhere and people all over the world here going to different things, whether it's the VA hospital, the military base, all of our medical research facilities that you and I were talking about before we got on the podcast, our newest one right. So our folks have a unique opportunity to make lots of friends because you got 50,000 people you can go make friends with. 

39:30

It's not like Carlisle. We need to find one person to at least talk to. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:34

Yeah, to stop the boredom. Okay, so we're going to have to wind down in a little bit, but we're talking to John Fisher and he's the police chief in Bedford, Massachusetts, and comes to the job, in my estimation, with a completely different mindset. You are involved with the MASH chiefs, Middlesex County chiefs. 

John Fisher Guest

39:51

Middlesex chiefs. We met here yesterday. Every single Middlesex chiefs was here yesterday. I host the monthly meetings you do, that's great, I'd love to come to one. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:58

What I wanted to say is also the IACP. How does your involvement in those organizations help you think bigger and less myopic about Bedford and the job of policing? 

John Fisher Guest

40:11

That's a great question. So I told the story yesterday because they were talking about mentorship in the meetings. We have a lot of new chiefs right In the 35 towns of Middlesex cities and towns and Jimmy Hicks, who I was a great friend of mine, absolute superstar in our profession right Previously Bedford, right Previously Bedford. So he's trying to introduce the topic and people kind of looking at him perplexed thing and I put my hand up and I said we actually had a guest speaker that day. 

40:34

Richie McLaughlin works for the Middlesex DA now, but I talk about when I was new and came in, how he embraced me talking about because when you get to the top, when you end up being a police chief, you've got less friends. You know that I mean I don't have any friends. How do you go in a law enforcement organization the fewer friends you have in law enforcement? Right, but you've got to have people that you can talk to, that speak the same language, because our profession is like a Venn diagram. 

41:02

Like I might, from Burlington and Lexington and Billerica and Concord and Carlisle, you know, are my towns Like, yes, a lot of my problems and a lot of my people are over here, but there's also that darker shade of gray that we have in a Venn diagram, where our worlds do intersect and we do need to be able to share, and it's extremely important in a professional environment law enforcement, which is a profession to be able to share openly and learn from each other. So if that's what you're referring to the regional piece and the United States or Alaska and listen to the way that they do things and why they do them of course, not just what they do, how they do it, but most importantly, why they do it you go, oh my goodness, that's an idea. Every time I come back from my ACP I'm like how have I been doing this wrong my entire career, right, right right. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:58

So what you just said and I'm all over the map here. You are a lifelong learner and we realize. Even sometimes my wife will say, well, go in somewhere where you don't know anyone, and I'll say, yes, I am, but by the time I leave I'll know a lot, because I'm not afraid to say hi, where are you from? And we'll start talking and the next thing you know, we're looking for ways to connect where you're from, what do you do those kinds of things? And I think that two things. I say an awful lot, and I know this is you leaders are readers, right, you read a lot and you're willing to come to the conclusion and you hope other people feel the same way that you don't know what you don't know. And if you keep your mind open, other people have already done things you haven't even thought of. Yeah, that's great, that's a great point. 

John Fisher Guest

42:42

Honestly have already done things you haven't even thought about. Yeah, that's great. That's a great point. Honestly, Steve, the older I've gotten, the more I realize I don't know. I always have a book on my bedside table and you probably remember this is a serious book and a fun book, right? I got a gift last week. I was a guest speaker at a driver's ed school. The instructor, who I know very well and she knows that I read voraciously. I don't know anything that's going on in professional sports and I don't really watch sitcoms, but I am a reader. She gave me the book the Enzo Ferrari book and the life of Enzo Ferrari knew that I was already banging through it last weekend. It helps anybody who's trying to get better at anything. You know, police chief, law enforcement. When I was a patrol officer I read a ton of books, and not because I was worried about the promotional exam, but it's out of curiosity for people. That's what keeps me happy. 

Intro-Outro Announcement

43:22

I tell people I worry about all the time. 

John Fisher Guest

43:23

But they're going to IACP. Are you going to sneak away and go to golf? Are you one of those people? I'm like no, no. I'm one of those dorks. It's going to go to all the darn classes Coffee. I see my friend Steve. I see Dave Lambert. You know I see all kinds of people I always peg you for, like what's the latest thing? Because you get to talk to so many more cool people than I do. Being a lifelong learner, you'll be much happier as a law enforcement executive. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:47

You know, and one of the things, and I don't know, if you do this I wouldn't be surprised if you do, but you almost just start a book club and I don't mean it that way with your crew or you grab an article out of Law Enforcement Bulletin or Police Chief Magazine and you hand it to your lieutenant or even your sergeant Read this, Take a look at it. What do you think we could do from that? What will you learn from that? Let's talk about it, that kind of stuff. Are you doing things like that to push out what you've learned? 

John Fisher Guest

44:09

We have an app that helps us with our accreditation. That we post articles yeah great, those things that are happening we post court decisions, that's wider distribution. They can be mandatory or optional to read, but it shows that our profession is getting better, that we as individuals can get better. That's great. 

Steve Morreale Host

44:26

So, as we wind down, a couple of things. If you had the chance to talk with anybody dead or alive, it could be an author, it could be a politician, it could be a leader, it could be a coach. Who might you be interested in picking their brain? 

John Fisher Guest

44:38

There's a laundry list there. You're catching me off guard here, but I'll tell you who it would be. It was probably right off the top of my head Nicole and Powell. Wow, why? Because of what I envisioned he went through in his life and during some of the critical things that happened to him he had a worldwide knowledge. He was incredibly poised. You know, I got to read some of the stuff he said. 

44:59

We pick people in our lives, in our professions, pick your brain. There's a few people that you always pick their brain. I haven't rang your phone a lot but when I have, I've always called you with an important question, right, because I understand your stature in our profession. But I think that he would be an interesting person to hear from and I have 20 questions in my head that, honestly, have nothing to do with law enforcement. You have you have to do with leadership and life and life and relationships and there were a couple of things. 

45:27

There were some things that happened to him in his career that honestly, he made the right decision and others he took grief from making the right decision, if that makes sense, and that is incredibly difficult in life not to bend with someone who was above you, or as much as I like people to fall in line and I'm obviously from a paramilitary family and a paramilitary environment in my life I admire the crap out of people that go you are 100 wrong and I'm gonna stick to my guns and I might take one for the team here. So be it. You know what I mean, like people that have the courage to do that, and I felt like and I'm not going to talk to certain things that happened to international relations, but I think there were some times that he did it, so I want to ask him what was that like and why'd you do it? And because I want to have that kind of intestinal fortitude if I'm ever faced with something like that. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:13

Does that make sense? It does. And the last question is this John, john Fisher, when you make a mistake, how do you deal with that? Do you apologize? Do you explain yourself? Are you willing to take responsibility for that mistake and learn from it? 

John Fisher Guest

46:26

Oh, I think we have to right and that shows human side and it depends on what kind of a thing it is and what the right thing is in the restorative process. Is the right thing in this restorative process to apologize to somebody, Say I? 

46:41

forgot to come on this today and embarrassed you, holy cats, you know I would owe you a massive apology and frankly, I should provide you a reason that that happened, whether I'm just that spacey or whatever my reason was, but life gets in the way. I understand. You've been here too, like no. I got called Burlington chief. They had a student accidentally die at school and I needed to go over there and be with him while they're doing grief counseling. 

Intro-Outro Announcement

47:06

Like there's certain things. 

John Fisher Guest

47:07

I explained to you and understand I'm still start with an apology, and it depends like you know, when I've been wrong in my I'll start high right Family is most important when I have not done something right. I think my kids have learned this that if Judy was right in a situation or if they were right, acknowledging that they were right is wildly important right at the beginning, and then maybe the apology, and then maybe the why, and then circling back around to remind them that that relationship is important and that makes sense. 

Steve Morreale Host

47:35

Well, do you have high hopes for policing? 

John Fisher Guest

47:37

I have amazing high hopes. I think our profession is like that book of questions. Right, we've had some amazing highs, some amazing lows. Hopefully we will learn from the lows to get them back up there, because that really that doesn't go well in our profession to have those lows right. There's too much collateral damage with something as important as community trust. I think you and I know what we're talking about here and different lows that have occurred during our lifetime, in the 70s until now, which is the only thing I've got to put context to right. But I think we're in a good spot. I think it's still a good profession for people that are willing to work nights, weekends and holidays. I still think we're moving in the right direction. I am more optimistic now than I ever have been in my career. That's good. 

Steve Morreale Host

48:20

Well, in my mind, a thought leader. We've been talking to John Fisher from the Bedford Mass Police Department and a solid guy, a good friend, for a long, long time. I appreciate you coming on, taking the time to bare your soul, to tell us your approach to things and to give us hope, which I think is important. John, thank you, thank you. Thank you for being here, thanks for having me, sir, and I look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care. 

So that's another episode of The CopDoc Podcast in the books. I want to remind you that people are listening and it boggles my mind from 89 different countries and 3000 cities and towns. So I appreciate that very much and I encourage you to reach out. Reach out to me at one of two places copdoc.podcast@gmail.com. Or you can get at me directly stephen.morreale@gmail.com.  Stephen with a p-h, m-o-r-r-e-a-l-e at gmail. Please send me what you're thinking, what you're getting out of it and, more importantly, some people you think I might be talking to. I appreciate it. Stay safe, keep up the good work. 

Intro-Outro Announcement

49:16

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.