The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
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The CopDoc Podcast delves into police leadership and innovation. The focus is on aiming for excellence in the delivery of police services across the globe.
Dr. Steve Morreale is a retired law enforcement practitioner, a pracademic, turned academic, and scholar from Worcester State University. Steve is the Program Director for LIFTE, Command College - The Leadership Institute for Tomorrow's Executives at Liberty University.
Steve shares ideas and talks with thought leaders in policing, academia, community leaders, and other related government agencies. You'll find Interviews with thought leaders drive the discussion to improve police services and community relationships.
Happy to report that The CopDoc Podcast is listed as #4 in the 10 Best Worcester Podcasts!
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The CopDoc Podcast: Aiming for Excellence in Leadership
Jonathan Ziders - Assistant Chief: Rising Through the Ranks Changes Everything You Thought You Knew
The CopDoc Podcast - Season 8 - Episode 154
Leadership doesn't happen in a vacuum – especially in policing, where decisions impact both officers and communities. In this revealing conversation, Assistant Chief Jonathan Ziders takes us on his remarkable journey from reluctant recruit to departmental leader.
"I never wanted to be a cop," Ziders candidly shares at the start of our discussion. His original dream of becoming a firefighter gave way to a policing career that has seen him rise through every rank in the Lancaster, NY Police Department, culminating in his recent appointment as the agency's first-ever Assistant Chief. This unique trajectory provides the backdrop for exploring how leadership perspectives transform with increased responsibility.
Communication emerges as perhaps the most critical skill for police leaders. Ziders reflects on his evolution from an introverted officer to a leader responsible for setting departmental tone. "I had to learn how to speak and communicate differently because I started to realize that how I thought I should be wasn't going to work," he explains. His emphasis on explaining "the why" behind directives resonates as a leadership principle applicable far beyond policing.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Ziders discusses his data-driven approach to mental health response. After analyzing call data, he discovered mental health incidents were dramatically underreported in their systems – not intentionally, but due to classification practices. This revelation led to exploring co-responder models that pair officers with mental health clinicians, representing the forward-thinking approaches Ziters brings to his department.
Throughout our discussion, Ziders repeatedly returns to the service core of policing, explaining how he reinforces this value with new officers: "When we're looking at hiring, those are the types of people that we want - the service-oriented individuals." His philosophy of leadership being about character – "who you are, not what you do" – offers wisdom for leaders in any field.
Join us for this candid look at police leadership and discover why explaining purpose, fostering communication, and maintaining authenticity might be the most valuable tools in any leader's arsenal.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
Welcome to the CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale:Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you again from Boston and you're listening to another episode of the Cop Doc Podcast. Today we go to Lake Erie, near the Canadian border, in Buffalo, to Lancaster, new York, and and we have assistant chief Jonathan Ziders here. How are you, John?
Jonathan Ziders:I'm great, Steve, how are you? I'm super glad to be here.
Steve Morreale:I'm glad. Well you know I'm thinking is that you're hearing, that you're hearing the intro. It must be weird for you to one, it must be. So let me explain to the audience. So John is one of the first guys who reached out to me. I think at the time we were sergeant or lieutenant.
Jonathan Ziders:Lieutenant we have. A lieutenant is actually the first line supervisor here.
Steve Morreale:Oh, okay, so you were a lieutenant. You reached out to me and I actually got on a phone call and we started to talk and we've connected and one of the things you can certainly say that you were saying is you're getting some things out of The CopDoc Podcast and here you are sitting, I'm watching you, you're sitting, you're hearing the intro and I saw a little smirk. So tell me how that felt. For a moment, I tell you.
Jonathan Ziders:I'll tell you the truth. I t was wild. I don't know if I've listened to every single podcast, but easily probably 90% of them, and sometimes just because things got lost in the mix but be able to sit here, listen to the intro and understand that I'm face to face with you, so to speak, it is an honor and I really appreciate everything the podcast has done for me. I think at one point we had a conversation on the phone and I'm like hey, you, actually the podcast kind of talks me off the ledge sometimes. I mean that kind of in a good way, because sometimes you get in these environments and agencies can be very insular. You know, you get sucked into your own little world here, and what your podcast has offered CopDoc Podcast has offered me is that perspective from all over the world really I mean the individuals that you've had conversations with, from overseas and obviously within this country as well has just really opened my perspective to what else is out there, because you know Western New York it's almost like a little island.
Steve Morreale:Sometimes it is, it seems almost like a little island sometimes it is.
Jonathan Ziders:It seems like times sometimes stand still and again, ultimately, perspectives and just the insight that so many of your guests and you yourself offer is something that I hadn't been exposed to previously. Yourself offer is something that I hadn't been exposed to previously, and now for several years, I regularly chime in and make sure that I'm listening, so I appreciate that.
Steve Morreale:All right. So enough of that. Thank you very much, but I'm so glad to have somebody who was a listener. A couple of things. I'm going to take a little credit, and it's certainly vicarious credit, but for you to have moved up as you have during your career is amazing to me and that's one of the reasons I reached back out to you, and I know that you are now enrolled at my alma mater, Nova Southeastern University, down in Fort Lauderdale, for a PhD, and I'll be curious to know how that is changing your mindset and how you're looking to implement things, how you're changing the way. Maybe you were treated as you came up with some old-time leaders Not that they weren't good leaders, but they were different, and you know that I'm seeing your head shake. But let's get started A little late in this, but let's get started with you. Where you are Lancaster, you are an assistant chief how you got into policing I know you were in the park police, but let's go back in history before we get going.
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah, interesting with me. I never wanted to be a cop. I actually wanted to be a firefighter since I was a little kid and as I got older that continued to be the case. But eventually, through conversations with some friends and some different experiences, I was like, hey, you would be a great police officer. And there's a couple of different stories and I'll just speak to one briefly.
Jonathan Ziders:I was almost involved in an accident and I was able to avoid it, but the individual went head-on with a car behind me, so I pulled off to the side and the individuals ended up being okay. But this gentleman went up to the individual, caused the accident and basically started a confrontation with them and I was, you know. I got out, confronted both of them, had this individual go stand off to the side, wait for the police to show up, try to take care of what was going on with the individual inside the car, tried to take care of what was going on with the individual inside the car and after that call. This individual who had created the confrontation was like hey, have you ever thought about being a police officer?
Steve Morreale:This is a guy that was just pissed off a minute ago.
Jonathan Ziders:Yes, he was a retired cop. Oh no, kidding, he's like the way you handled that was pretty much perfect. You took control. I had some friends that knew me, that knew my demeanor and how I looked at things and how I handled myself and how I carried myself. The first police exam I took was a combination of state parks and the Erie County police exam out here. So same same exam basically, and each one hires from from that. So I got the call from state parks first, went through their process, which is is very in depth.
Steve Morreale:We'll say so. That took some time and time consuming.
Jonathan Ziders:So eventually I was actually hired by them and started the academy in 2005. Graduated in 2006. Interestingly, in the academy I ended up with the PT award. I'm a big fitness guy, I love staying in shape and to me it's just important for law enforcement and it was a goal of mine from before I even started. And I actually received a leadership award in the academy too and I'm saying this because I don't want to, I don't necessarily like talking about accolades, yeah, but it's. It's important because when I look back to where I am now, it still is unbelievable to me.
Jonathan Ziders:And it was just all of these things kind of pieced together throughout my career. And it kind of started there because that leadership award was something that was voted on by my peers. It had nothing to do with the instructors of the academy, it was by my peers and through that I actually had to write a speech, give the speech at graduation, and a bunch of buddies in the Academy mentioned that I could hold the tune. I would not say I'm a great singer, but I can hold the tune and I also ended up having to sing the national anthem at graduation. I'm not necessarily an outgoing individual slightly more introverted. So that was the Academy experiences. I ended up actually working in New York City for a year with New York State Parks, which was eye-opening. It gave me a perspective on how a different section of not only a state but just New York City is its own microcosm.
Jonathan Ziders:You can almost call it a macrocosm because it's so large and the perspectives and experiences of individuals that lived there was vastly different from what I had experienced my entire life.
Jonathan Ziders:There was no doubt that my first day on FTO that I was driving around in some of the city streets, day on FTO that I was driving around in some of the city streets, my eyes probably bugging out of my head, because it was just overwhelming Definitely different from where I came from. But after that, the day I was transferred back to Western New York, I was going to end up working in Niagara Falls. I ended up getting a phone call from Lancaster literally the day that I arrived home from getting transferred from New York City back to Niagara Falls and they had a spot open. So I came interviewed here a simpler process because I was already a certified police officer and I was actually on the list as well. So it was a simple process. Still had to go through an interview and all the rest of the process down at the county Lancaster brought me on board, and that was in 2007. So I've been with Lancaster since then. You've been probably see.
Steve Morreale:you were an officer, you were sergeant, lieutenant and you are now, in essence, the number two, correct?
Jonathan Ziders:So 2015, I made lieutenant that's first line here and then 2020, I became an admin lieutenant, and then 2023, captain and last month, assistant chief. And the assistant chief's position is brand new, it had never existed here before and we can get into kind of how that transpired and I think how my relationship with the chief opened in some of the conversations that he had with some other chiefs in the area, shined a light on the benefit of having a position. But it was was I think a lot of it was driven by my approach to two things and I'll get into into that, as we probably have.
Steve Morreale:So let me ask you some questions. So as you rise, as you go from sergeant to lieutenant to captain, how did you have to find yourself changing as your job and scope broadened?
Jonathan Ziders:So really it became for me. I was forced to come out of my shell. A big part of me has always been I've always respected other people. I've always held myself accountable in a lot of ways as I moved through the ranks and had to address people differently. I had to learn how to speak and communicate differently, because I started to realize that how I thought I should be wasn't going to work, realized that how I thought I should be wasn't going to work. I had some examples from some other supervisors that I didn't really care for, so I opted to change that communication. One example I'll tell you this much. So I became a lieutenant.
Jonathan Ziders:There was another lieutenant who was working and I decided that the simplest way for me to communicate was through email. As we all know, at this point it's probably one of the worst ways to communicate, especially if you just want to narrow things down and speak directly to either an individual or small group of people. I did this kind of as a blanket statement, and one lieutenant came at me you don't tell me what to do. This wasn't meant for me. You need to talk to them directly. And he lieutenant came at me you don't tell me what to do. This wasn't meant for me. You need to talk to them directly. And he kind of put me in my place. All right, you know what? I'm never going to do this again.
Jonathan Ziders:So at that point on it had to become a lot more direct communication with individuals. But it was also generally a conversation. I'm not a yeller, I'm not a yeller, so I had to make sure that if I was having this conversation, that I held firm, I maintained respect, but that person knew that I was serious about what I was speaking about, and that was early on. Some of the bigger adjustments I had to make was really just the communication aspect of it. Moving forward. The relationships that brought me to where I'm at now, in this position, were developed through that process of communication, and I'm probably going to harp on the communication aspect of it because it's something that I still feel short on.
Steve Morreale:Yeah.
Jonathan Ziders:That I'm still developing, yeah.
Steve Morreale:So let me ask, let me ask as you continue. You know you're in the, you're in the shadows of Buffalo, you're on the, you're on the shores of Lake Erie, pretty close. Yeah, all right, so it's a small town village and you've got a small organization. So you said something a little bit ago and that is that you can be almost in a cocoon up there, and so how do you find outside ideas beyond the podcast? Do you belong now to chiefs association, iacp or any of that that has helped you expand your horizon, expand your world view? Uh, to help you, you know, take the small agency and make sure that you're doing things.
Jonathan Ziders:The agency is doing things that are sort of current and up to date so I'm a a member of the IACP also, the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing. Next year I actually want to get to their conference.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, I was there this year and it was worth it, so I think you'll enjoy it.
Jonathan Ziders:I do have an intention there. Yeah, I do read. Audiobooks are often my go-to just because they're convenient, but I do read several. I to tell you the truth, it's difficult for me to name very specific leadership books that I've enjoyed. One of the more recent ones was I trust and inspire by.
Steve Morreale:Oh, you got to read choosing to lead my friend, the one I just wrote.
Jonathan Ziders:That is on my list. Obviously, it would be a seamless. I could certainly throw that at you.
Intro/Outro :I haven't gotten there yet, but it's going to happen.
Jonathan Ziders:A lot of Simon Sinek's work I follow them on LinkedIn, the Curve and a lot of the information that they put out is just fantastic. Put out is just fantastic because the information is presented in such a way that, like you, don't get frequently and it's a shame that we don't, but we don't get it often in. On my end of things in policing right now, there are there's leadership courses people can get sent to and I feeling you know some of you know some of the work that you do as well is accessible out there, but you really have to go seek it out.
Steve Morreale:Well, wait a minute, didn't you tell me you're going somewhere pretty soon, to which national? Oh yes, that's kind of important, right. So that's another.
Jonathan Ziders:Yes, so that's another aspect of this. Right, we haven't had anybody go to the National Academy in over 30 years and I had a conversation with at the time we were both lieutenants. We were at a local FBI leader training that was being held here and the FBI will come in, and they kind of gave their narrative on what the FBI National Academy is and I'm like man, that'd be fantastic to go to. And this was 2018. And when the chief became the chief at a local chief's meeting, the FBI came in again and presented the same thing and again he brought it back and said hey, do you still want to do this? I'm going to ask the town board if we can send you. And that's exactly what he did. And now I will be heading there at the end of this month and I can't wait for what I'm presented with there that I can bring back here and hopefully share with everybody else and present it in such a way that we can continue to send people when at all.
Steve Morreale:You know, yeah, so. So you don't keep it for yourself, but you identify new leaders and send it. What you're going to find is you're going to see people from all over the world and you're going to have a brand new group of friends. I've spoken to many who both teach there and go there, and so the outreach, the mentoring that can be done by you and with you and for you is extremely valuable. It's an extremely good opportunity for you and I think so. I'm happy for you. I'll be very, very interested in your take on that experience. It's a little physical, it's a lot of mental. You'll be able to choose some courses. It's a great opportunity, but you have to walk away for 11 weeks, 10 weeks.
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah, yeah, 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, and trust me, you're going at a very warm time of the year having spent time in Quantico, so I'm happy for you.
Steve Morreale:So let's go back, john. By the way, I haven't said it once yet, but we're again talking to Jonathan Zeider. He's the assistant chief in Lancaster, new York, police Department, and so you've got this new job. You're now the assistant chief. You are the number two. The operations, whatever it is, you're responsible for for, and other people report to you. But as you stepped in to, let's say, the captain's position, where you had a few lieutenants that would report through you, what was your approach to taking that job on?
Steve Morreale:What was your approach with them? There might have been some jealousy that you got it and they didn't get it, but yet you still have to work in this organization, which you normally work with people for 20 to 30 years, right? So what tact did you take to sit people down, to get everybody sort of aligned and to share at least what your vision was, and, I hope, to ask for feedback from them on how you could do the job better? I'm putting words in your mouth, but tell me that conversation, those discussions.
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah, I think one of the benefits it's a pro and con of the smaller agency is we do know each other pretty well, so it's not like I'm walking into an agency or to an entirely different group of people that we have no backgrounds with. So, because we know each other, it affords us this ability to communicate a little bit differently, but it also creates roadblocks in some ways, because it's like is this person my friend right now or are they my boss? And things definitely do get lonelier as you start to rise up.
Steve Morreale:um, just because you look lonely to me there, john yeah go.
Jonathan Ziders:Go ahead, but the relationships tend to change and I prefer to have very simple conversations when we need to discuss something that has to be addressed and I'm not. But the simplest approach that I had to take was when I needed something done, to really tell them why something had to be done, and vice versa. I'm always open to people bringing things back to me or even to give me feedback in an area where they think I'm wrong. And frequently it happens when we start dealing with some union issues, and here it's a little bit different because the command staff isn't part of the union but our lieutenants and patrol officers are part of the same union, which creates its own set of issues. But back to how those conversations occur.
Jonathan Ziders:The why has always been important to me, and I think that's what we really try to harp on now is is because it was something that I experienced growing up and going through the ranks in this agency was that frequently it was just go and do this.
Jonathan Ziders:We really know why we were doing it and that's also to connect this to kind of the schooling aspect is understanding and learning on that end. How things start to connect helps me articulate. Sometimes you know why the connection is to why they need to go out there and do traffic control. It's not because we're writing tickets and we we want to create revenue. It's. It's shocking to me how many people think that's what we do. But it's not it's because we want to go out there. It's about public safety, it's about changing driving behaviors. But if we don't communicate that to the lieutenants and and then, by extension, the patrol officers, they think it's just us wanting them to justify their jobs. And that's a big example of how the communication between myself and the lieutenants and the patrol officers and most of the conversation now ends up being between the lieutenants.
Jonathan Ziders:We don't interact that much with the patrol officers, unfortunately. I want to change that, moving forward, because I think having that access helps the officers feel a bit more comfortable that we're not just sitting up here in our offices, because our offices are actually upstairs in some type of ivory tower where we're just, you know, handing down orders from up high.
Steve Morreale:I got you. So I want to ask a new officer comes in and you're trying to set the table. I'm sure the chief does too, but what's your advice, what's your reminder of what the job of policing is? Because what strikes me is when you come out of the academy, you know, you've had the experience, I've been in three or four different academies and it is really getting you ready for being tactical, being defensive. You know understanding the law, hands-on driving, handcuff, elements of the law and such, and yet the reality is in your town and virtually every town USA.
Steve Morreale:That's about 10% of the things we do putting hands on people and so much is serving people showing up for serious calls and stupid calls because we show up at those. How do you balance that with new people to kind of set the framework that this isn't all run and gun stuff, or am I wrong?
Jonathan Ziders:No, we try to do that. I specifically try to do that. But I think in our interview process it starts there and we're looking to hire individuals. They all come in, they want to serve, they want to serve their community. So it's very similar statement by each individual. You know candidate that comes in and it's and it's great. I think it starts there and we reiterate to them exactly what you stated, in that most of this job isn't doing the law enforcement related stuff. It really is about serving, and that's where we really try to cut our teeth when we are having these conversations with new officers and specific, specifically when they're giving us answers before they even get hired.
Jonathan Ziders:We actually had interviews last week and I know something specific I stated to several of them were like okay, understand those things that you just stated right now, that if you do get hired, don't forget those reasons why you want to do this job, because you're going to come in. We see people, they come in and they get jaded pretty quickly. They and they forget why they came in here and you know, maybe they forget what they did before they walked in the door and this job has served me very well. It's because I wanted it to. I wanted to make sure that I was going out there every time I had an interaction with the community, that it was a positive one, and that's what we actually try to reiterate to the new officers and even candidates at this point, because when we're looking at hiring, those are the types of people that we want. We want the service-oriented individuals, the tactics and stuff. They have to be there.
Steve Morreale:You can teach them and you've got to keep them current, like keeping up with fitness. But that's not the only part of the job, and I know you're making that clear right. There's so many other things. Go out and make friends, don't make enemies.
Jonathan Ziders:Correct and so much of the. We have a very supportive community and we want to be able to maintain that. So we want officers who are going to go out there and understand their position in the community and how they interact and how they represent this agency is going to matter. It's going to matter to them, it's going to matter to their career, but it's mostly going to matter to the individual who they're interacting with.
Steve Morreale:You know it's interesting. I'm, as soon as you said something, something triggered in my mind and I talked to somebody who runs police to peace is what it's called and I want to get her on and her whole shtick, I think.
Jonathan Ziders:I've seen that point made and and it's valuable because our words matter. You know, and I'm frequently speaking with officers and you read reports and things like that and you have to kind of have a conversation with them once in a while when they're stating things a certain way, that we know what they mean. But when somebody else goes and reads this, it's going to potentially mean something else and labels matter. So when we're talking about policing, you know the law enforcement aspect is there. But you know for us, for here, the people that are here in this community, they support us largely and I think it's because of some of the work, especially in the most recent years, that we've been doing out there where we want officers to be seen and we try to communicate that to the officers too.
Jonathan Ziders:Then the benefit of that because if something goes wrong, even if some we didn't do anything wrong, maybe that's everything that we did on our end was lawful, but it just the lawful but awful type of stuff where it does occur. But if you've, you've put those deposits in and you create that trust in the community that they're going to be the ones that are there to support you and, by extension, you know the politicians, then maybe don't have to necessarily breathe down our necks as much, because the community says no, no, look, look, we understand. This is what had to be done. There's nothing that was wrong here and we know who our police agency is. Even if you have a bad egg, somebody who kind of maybe they just screw up. If the trust is there and it's been built over the years, you can't substitute that and you can't just make it up in the short term. It's something that's developed over a long time.
Steve Morreale:I think what you're saying is it really becomes important. You, as an assistant chief, your, your colleague, the chief, has that responsibility to for outreach to the, to the community. And some people will say, right, that's your job, that's not my job. My job is to enforce the law and be out there to make calls, to take calls, and I would. I would refute that. I would say no, no, your job is just like my job and that's to have community outreach and possible explain why.
Steve Morreale:Why do we blade our targets? Why do you have your hand near your gun? Sometimes Arrest never will look good on camera because the other person rarely wants you to take them and so it's going to get a little messy for a minute, right, but it's messy until you put the handcuffs on. When that's done, it's done. Let's get you up and out, and I mean I was preaching the choir. We're talking to John Ziters and he is the assistant chief in Lancaster Police. I know that you, John, are an adjunct professor, and talk about that and tell me why you're gravitating to want to teach and how that sort of modifies your approach to leading.
Jonathan Ziders:Okay, Pursuing teaching really came about after grad school and I had a conversation with the individual who was running the program at the time and it also opened the doors on the teaching side of things. But what I really wanted to do is have the opportunity in front of students and Hilbert College, where I received my graduate degree from, is a heavy criminal justice program and I've been able to do that pretty effectively and that's one of my favorite things to do is to go into the classroom and provide some real world examples to the students on scenarios that have occurred in my line of work, or even just to provide some insight on something that may have happened in another part of the country.
Steve Morreale:You're looking at it from your lens and your practical lens.
Jonathan Ziders:You know and to provide some context for them. Sometimes because you read, this stuff is put out in the news and the news does what the news can as far as putting information out well, so I think.
Steve Morreale:I'm thinking that sometimes you have to dissect, you have to slice what happened and and, and you don't know that somebody came up behind a police officer and put their boot between their legs and that's not on camera. You turn around so you don't know that part. You know. You don't know that they tried to bite them. They don't know that they tried to spit on them or they, whatever they refused and the camera wasn't on at that moment. Whatever it is, I I understand that's that's helpful.
Steve Morreale:But again, being a teacher learning how to teach, um, not just walking in and talking about or talking about war stories, because so many people do that, but you take a little bit of theory and then you inject that you said context. So you are quickly becoming a pracademic, I might add, and especially as you're working in your doctorate. But I think that's very helpful for people to understand, for them to say well, let's look at this from a whole bunch of different sides. You know how does the community react and how do the police react and what were the alternatives. And so what I'm about to say here is you've heard me talking off a lot about leading with questions and in a lot of ways that's what you're doing in the classroom. Have you thought about that? Have you thought about that? Do you lead with questions in work? Do you have people come in and say what happened, what could we have done differently? Have you thought about this? Is that in your repertoire?
Jonathan Ziders:It is not to the extent I want it to be. I still have to be very intentional about it. There are times where I have to be very self-aware. When somebody's sitting in front of me that I take a step back and stop talking. When somebody's sitting in front of me that I take a step back and stop talking. You know and I've become a lot more aware of that over the years that this person is in front of me for a reason. They're trying to tell me something. I need to allow them. I need to listen, stop and just listen, and after that I can ask whatever questions. I need to develop some more context, but just allow them the time, the space to speak without me interjecting it, and I'll take that as a hereditary component of my personality. Love my mother, but those are the that's. When we have dialogue, it's like you know, the talking over one another type of stuff.
Steve Morreale:You know, it's funny because, having sat on many, many interviews and then spend time in a classroom and help people in a capstone to say, get ready for an interview, my favorite saying is answer the question and put a period on it, right. So let's continue a little bit, because what I was saying is you know, put a period on it, right. So let's continue a little bit, because what I was saying is you know, put a period on it. It's the same thing and that's an interesting point that you bring. You know, active listening becomes so important in this job, especially as you rise, so that people walking into your office have the feeling that they are being heard and they have the ability to come in here and talk with you.
Steve Morreale:And setting to me, setting up an organization and policing is very bad at this, and it has been in the past that we're not looking for you at the line level to tell us what to do, and that's pure bullshit, I have to say, because they know what's going on. They're there every day and if we're willing to ask what's going on, what do you think is different? What do you think is missing, what might we do to improve, or what are the problems out there that we should be paying attention to what's your take on it, and by sitting and asking people that and making them feel that they can come in if they identify a problem, rather than say after the fact, I knew that was going to happen, you know well, if you knew what was going to happen, why didn't you bring it to our attention? I'm seeing you shake your head with a little smirk. So what are you thinking?
Jonathan Ziders:No, that's exactly right, and we have a good set of, especially lieutenants and even some officers who are willing to come up and actually start those conversations. I'll be the first one to admit right now that the time I've spent in these positions has separated me enough from the road that I don't necessarily know what's going on there day in and day out and what they need from us. You know we need to give them the tools to do what they need to do and frequently, sometimes it falls on that and sometimes it's it's personnel stuff days off. You know we need more people, this and that. Some of that we can control in the short term, some we can. We can look at long term, but creating a space for them to walk in and say, hey, this is going on, we, we need this piece of equipment to help us do our job a little bit better, this is going on with this individual.
Jonathan Ziders:We've had some stuff occur within the last year or so where some people were, some officers were struggling with some things. There were some officers were struggling with some things and it was brought to our attention and we would never have known, even if we were down there walking around and you know, having Kind of the simple conversations in passing with people, that the doors are open for them to come in and explain. Hey, I have these concerns, whether it's about another officer or again some equipment, or even some of the laws that are coming, that have been coming to pass. You know in New York State that how do we actually address this? How should we approach this situation? We have a local First Amendment auditor that over the last couple of years has gained some officers attention and they needed to know, number one, that we have their back. But, hey, if this happens, how do you think we should actually handle this?
Jonathan Ziders:and now, now we all kind of know where that sits, but the door is still open that when they see something, and that is, you have to create a, a you said a zone or a comfort and a recognition that you are willing to listen right, and that's an important element of leading, I think I think it goes in another example that I'll give here with the current chief and myself and this was still captain at the time but we were dealing with some disciplinary things and policy violations and we were looking at handling it in a certain way and one of the lieutenants came in to my office and said hey, I, just just so you know like you're looking at doing this and this guy is a super well-respected individual and both the chief and I were new, newer in our positions Like, look, if you try to, if you're going to do this, it's not, it's going to look like you're dropping the hammer just to make a point in the level of discipline and the violation doesn't really reach what you you're looking at doing.
Jonathan Ziders:We had a discussion on why that might be. I offered my position, he offered his position and at the end of the day I understood where they're coming from and had a conversation with the chief and this is now the chief willing to listen to what I have to say. Conversation with the chief and this is now the chief willing to listen to what I have to say, and ultimately we actually ended up finding some middle ground between where we wanted to go with it and what our intentions were and why we were taking this, making this action, and where the lieutenant who came up to speak to us was coming from and how it was going to positively or negatively affect the entire force. You know everybody that else was down there and how it was going to positively or negatively affect the entire force.
Steve Morreale:Everybody that else was down there and how it might be perceived. Well, it sounds to me like if he was suggesting if you take punitive action, serious punitive action, it is going to backfire in many ways because other people are going to say unfair and they're going to kind of rail against you, and so I'm always pushing the idea of whenever possible. You know, there are some egregious violations, I understand, and they deserve some serious sanctions, but so many of the things that people do can be handled correctively, not punitively, right, and that's a difference. In other words, we're all human, we all make mistakes. You know you said a swear at one point in time, all right, human, we all make mistakes. You know you said a swear at one point in time, all right, and escalating. And I think what you just demonstrated, even the chief, was the willingness to listen to someone and the comfort of somebody coming forward and say before you do this, have you thought about this?
Jonathan Ziders:progressive discipline.
Steve Morreale:Thank you, I was struggling for that, but you're right and that's exactly it.
Jonathan Ziders:And the thing is I know, from my perspective, I don't. I don't want my ego to get in the way. I want to get it right and if that means that I have to swallow some pride, I'm going to do that because, ultimately, I know myself and the chief we want to get it right At the end of the day. To us, that, ultimately, is what matters, and a lot of our discipline that we I won't call it discipline, because when individuals do something wrong, it is more about what is there to learn from this, and it's not even just about learning from having them learn, because there's something that, when it occurs, maybe there's a culture issue that we need to pay a little bit more attention to and make some adjustments in how we are looking at things, and maybe we need to make some adjustments to policy.
Steve Morreale:I think that's good, and a couple of things that I wrote down is how important reflection is as a leader to sit back and say how did I do? Could I have handled it differently? How can I grow from this? How can I make some? How did I do? Could I have handled it differently? How can I grow from this? How can I make some? How can I correct some of the mistakes? And then sometimes you're going to have to go back and kind of eat crow and be humble and say you know, lieutenant John, steve, I'm sorry, you know I I overstepped and I was a little bit irritated that day. I let my emotions get the best of me and I hope you'll forgive me and I've certainly had to do that. But I think what we're talking about and dancing around is a little bit is is whenever possible. Why?
Steve Morreale:aren't we using this as teachable moments? Right, these aren't felonies when somebody doesn't wear a hat or whatever the you know, whatever the complaint is, or somebody leave something out of a report unless it was done purposefully, whatever that might be. I think that's important. What do you see yourself as you continue in this position? What are you learning along the way? Who do you lean on, potentially outside of the organization? As a mentor to run something by, and I don't need a name, but do you have some?
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
Jonathan Ziders:There's a couple other local officers, one specific captain who I know is willing to always pick up the phone and listen to what I have to say or some feedback, and they're very knowledgeable and we have a similar mindset on some things.
Jonathan Ziders:They're very knowledgeable and we have a similar mindset on some things, but also enough of a difference for them to provide some honest critique and feedback on, maybe, where I'm coming from, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I have believe it or not? It's a strange thing for me to say this, but I have a good relationship with my ex-wife as well and you know, we spent a lot of time together and she knows me pretty well, but she's also still. She's not afraid to put me in my place and obviously we're not married anymore, but the relationship we were able to maintain a friendship, raise our daughter together, and it was because I still respected her as a person and she was able to respect me as a person, and that's how I tend to approach all of my relationships. You know, I don't have a lot of enemies. For that reason, and even if I don't like somebody, I'm respectful, I have a conversation with them.
Steve Morreale:And are you running meetings regularly?
Jonathan Ziders:So we don't run them enough. We've had those conversations. We probably need to do them quarterly, ideally maybe more, but the size of our agency and coordinating that gets a little complicated. So right now we do them twice a year. We probably need to do them four times a year, quarterly, to really be able to have more direct lines of communication, because that's where the rubber meets the road as far as I'm concerned. We can. Email serves its purpose, but it's not great, especially when you really need to have the conversations, because we're going to have a supervisor meeting next week and sometimes these supervisor meetings we have scheduled for two hours and they run for four, and it's because there's been such a gap in time and everybody wants to have their voice and their moment and to discuss what's been on their mind, and so we don't run them enough, is my response.
Steve Morreale:Do you see on your list of things to do with the chief things to make improvements? I don't. I'm shy away from the work the word reform because of the way it's been thrown at us, but, but, but is, is there room for improvement? Are there things you're working on? Are there things you're seeing outside? You were talking about co-response a bit and the importance of that. I presume that that conversation we had before I started taping about co-response the value, the experience of co-response. Obviously the cost, but does that imply that there are more emotionally disturbed or mental health related cases that you're going on and your officers are not clinicians?
Jonathan Ziders:Correct, kind of tie all this in together. Some of the things we're looking to improve related to the co-response aspect is as I've gone through the schooling, the data component has become more prominent for me. So one of the things I ended up doing was looking at our in New York state. It's mental health law 941. I wanted to look at those number of calls. How many were labeled mental per se and then how many of those were like how many more of those calls were hidden in the CAD data Right? And sure enough, I started digging and I didn't even go beyond welfare check, I just started looking at welfare check and the number was three times the number that were actually so it's underreporting, but not necessarily on purpose.
Jonathan Ziders:No not at all.
Steve Morreale:But yourself as an agency that might scare the hell out of you if you get the real numbers to say you know. In these circumstances, we'd like you to code it like this so that we can better understand what kinds of calls are driven in this direction Is that fair?
Jonathan Ziders:Absolutely Right. So that's a good example of the types of things that we are looking at improving. Let me backtrack here. So the co-responder aspect of it really came to fruition because we started looking at those numbers and pulling that out and knowing there are some other local agencies that have co-responders and the types of numbers that they have, and our numbers really weren't that far off to where we could actually justify having a clinician on board with us you know, I've seen.
Steve Morreale:I've seen some agencies. You're a smaller agency, but I've seen all the agencies that regionalize that. That you know they. They cobble together a little money from you and from another department. Some agencies you're a smaller agency, but I've seen all the agencies that regionalize that. That you know they cobble together a little money from you and from another department, another department, and you get one or two and they're basically shared.
Steve Morreale:Right, it's a five-day week. I'm going to be two days with you, one day with you and two days with you, and if you need me, I'm nearby and we'll transport them over. So I so, whether or not that's something you've already heard about, it's something that's being used here in New England all of the time now and it's relevant news. But it's certainly needed. And what has started to happen in other organizations and officers that I've spoken to is that if you've got the right clinician, it's like having the right doctor, but if you've got the right clinician, you know that clinician can come in and when the respect uh comes in for that clinician and the way they handle calls, the officer sometimes retracts and is there to provide some safety.
Steve Morreale:But there's a there's a byproduct of learning the way that clinician approaches that situation and sometimes, when they're not there the the clinician isn't there it modifies the behavior of the officer I was going to say the agent but the officer and that's a pretty significant byproduct. So I know you're for it, I know you're looking at it, I guarantee you'll be talking about it down at the National Academy and that may be one of your projects too. That could be of some value. We need to wind down, but I want to ask you a few more questions In the instant.
Steve Morreale:What are the modifications that you have had to make moving into this position so that you're not and because I know that we call it the Peter Principle, or I don't, but it's called the Peter Principle when you become an assistant chief you become a captain, but you're much more comfortable as lieutenant and you don't always rise to that position. You don't let the person rise to their position as a new assistant in a position you've never had at the department. How have you approached this new job, this new responsibility, sort of your job classification and description. I still am. What are you smirking at me for?
Jonathan Ziders:No, I mean I'm still making that adjustment. So we actually transitioned one of my previous captain's position into this. So the transition is somewhat natural, but it's still. There's a discomfort. That is there.
Steve Morreale:Knowing number one. You're the test baby.
Jonathan Ziders:Yes, and the direct number two yeah, and knowing that the responsibility is there, now I actually I have two captains underneath me, which is, you know, the chief was traditionally just had the captains underneath him, so now I have another couple individuals that I don't like to say. Answer.
Steve Morreale:They report to you.
Jonathan Ziders:They report to you, correct, that's probably the best way of putting it. And again, so there's some discomfort there. I'm still trying to get my legs underneath me a little bit as far as that goes, but I think the best way that I'm approaching this right now is making sure that, now that I'm in between the chief and the two captains that I, now that I'm in between the chief and the two captains that I maintain I am going to be the bridge between you know what they're doing, what's going on with the chief, and how that communication between the four of us there's four of us right now actually plays out how it flows Right. Correct Cause, because there's some stuff that ultimately and I think this is the important part of my position the chief doesn't have to deal with, he shouldn't have to deal with. He's got other stuff.
Steve Morreale:Yeah, he could be out with more outward looking, correct, okay?
Jonathan Ziders:and my place is to fill that gap. He needs to know the things that that are important and that he needs to know about. But a lot of stuff it can stop with me and I can manage it from my perspective, whether it be directly through lieutenants or if it comes through the captains. And again, our doors are always open here because we are a smaller agency, so officers kind of know that they can pop in, sit down, have a conversation with us if need be. So that's probably the most important adjustment that I've made just in the short term here, because it's really only kind of been a month right now is to make sure that I'm just I'm feeling my role as the assistant chief, as the know, the chief and the captain. So when you leave for 10 weeks.
Steve Morreale:Will there be an acting in your, in your position?
Jonathan Ziders:Believe it or not.
Steve Morreale:No, I think they're just largely You're reverting back to the way it was.
Jonathan Ziders:We're just going to yes, we're just going to revert back. Especially, it's kind of an easy thing because it hasn't just hasn't been in place for too long. I got, they knew it was, they knew it was coming, and the the patrol captain right now she has a good handle on things. She's doing a fantastic job. The detective captain he's been in his position for quite a while so he knows what's going on on his end. So I'm still, gonna believe it or not, my laptop is coming with me and there's a couple small things that I'm probably still going to manage when I'm down there, because I'll have the ability to, but it won't be much to be you know one or two hours, yeah, but I'm afraid you're going to be in the boardroom a lot down there.
Steve Morreale:My friend, you know what the boardroom is right.
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah.
Steve Morreale:Those are the cheap beers with all the FBI.
Jonathan Ziders:And I have heard.
Steve Morreale:Well, that's good. So, listen, I wish you good luck. We've been talking to John Zyders and he's the assistant chief in Lancaster, on his way to the national academy in the next month. He is new with the assistant chief, I really appreciate it Working towards your dissertation, which is a big deal, and if I can help you, you know I certainly will.
Steve Morreale:But I want to thank you for sharing, and I want to thank you for being so both, I'd say, humble, but so forthright about the trepidation you have as you come into a new job. You want to fulfill it right and you want to listen better. So I mean, it's just great stuff to be able to talk to. You know, I think this, john, and I guess I you'll have the last word, but as you rise to leadership positions, in my estimation the position that you have now attained is yours and through your hard work. But to me, our job as leaders is to not worry about ourselves anymore but to develop others so that the organization is sustained and so that, as they step up, that they can put their little spin on improving the agency. What do you, what do you think of that?
Jonathan Ziders:I think you're spot on and it's it's a thing that really has to be focused on. What do you're doing? That you're only really, even though you're doing it in a way because you want to improve and be better, you're still thinking about yourself and hopefully, when you're thinking about yourself, you know you're developing that so you can contribute and help and develop others in the agency and make sure that they have their needs met. But again, it takes intention and I think the intention comes from the self-awareness and being humble and remembering where we ultimately come from, understanding that there are officers out there that might want to develop into the type of person maybe not that you are, but pursue the position that you're sitting in Right and put their spin on it, not necessarily being a carbon copy of you, correct?
Jonathan Ziders:Correct, which is kind of what I did when I pursued this position. The previous captain had been here for a long time and I wanted to walk in and I had my own kind of plan of how I was going to address it, and I don't do things just like he did and I think he was a great guy. But there was a transition and I think it's been welcomed and I hope to make sure that the example that I set opens the doors for others to see what they can obtain in their careers, cause I certainly did not see that when I entered law enforcement. So, you know, leadership to me is really always been about character, and now you can have bad character, I suppose, and still be.
Jonathan Ziders:You know, leadership to me has really always been about character. And now you can have bad character, I suppose, and still be a leader. There's all kinds of examples of that throughout history. But when I say this, I don't know if I go to provide the best context for it, but it's about character. But it's because it's about who you are and not so much about what you do. And when I mean that.
Steve Morreale:I'll tell you what I think you're meaning is you know you have to be authentic. It can't be fake. It can't be fake. You know, you are you. You're still developing. Right, I'm still developing. I'll say I've been teaching leadership for probably 35 years. I constantly make mistakes and fine tune and retune and revise and learn from others and learn from reading, and sometimes it's learning through trial and error that didn't work and I think if we have that mindset, it allows us again to be candid with people, to have humility and realize what our shortcomings are, and to be in with people to have humility and realize you know what our shortcomings are and to be in a constant state of learning. Your statement I think so.
Jonathan Ziders:Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't really add more to it, that's great.
Steve Morreale:so thank you so much. I I do mean that I wish you the best of luck, uh, both in this position and in your opportunity to be again one of the first to go to the National Academy for your organization, and I know you're going to make friends and contacts that will be lifelong, and I wish you the best of luck.
Jonathan Ziders:Look, I appreciate you, I appreciate the podcast and you know this was an amazing opportunity. I certainly could not imagine sitting here even several years ago, but again, you do amazing work. I can't wait to hear more.
Steve Morreale:That's great. Thank you so much. We've been talking, I've been talking to Assistant Chief Jonathan Zyders up at the Lancaster New York Police Department and I thank you. Thanks for listening. That's another episode on the books and I want to thank you for listening. I continue to say and I'm amazed that I'm hearing from people from all over the world 89 countries are listening, which just blows my mind. More importantly, keep learning, stay safe, keep your people safe.
Intro/Outro :Hav e a good day. Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.
