Erik Smith - Colonel, Kansas Highway Patrol - Be Hard on Problems, Soft on People

Season 8 - The CopDoc Podcast - Episode 157

Colonel Eric Smith's journey from Boeing sheet metal mechanic to leading the Kansas Highway Patrol reveals what transformative police leadership looks like in action. After a chance encounter with a sergeant led him to volunteer as a dispatcher, Smith found his calling in law enforcement, spending nine years with the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office before joining DEA for 21 years, eventually rising to high-ranking leadership positions.

When Smith took command of a divided Kansas Highway Patrol in 2023, he immediately embarked on statewide listening tours, but with a crucial difference from traditional "meet-and-greets" – he documented every concern, created accountability spreadsheets, and demanded solutions from command staff. His approach shocked some senior leaders comfortable with the status quo, but resonated deeply with officers hungry for meaningful change.

At the heart of Smith's philosophy is the belief that "you should be hard on problems and soft on people." This mindset transformed KHP's rigid disciplinary structure, creating an environment where officers aren't afraid to take necessary risks or admit mistakes. By recognizing that few errors are truly career-ending, Smith cultivates a culture of growth rather than fear.

The parallels between Smith's DEA experience and his current role are striking. Just as he understood that federal agents must respect that "it's their town, I'm just walking through it" when working with local agencies, Smith approaches relationships with county sheriffs from a position of humility. "The question that should come out of our mouth is 'What can I do to help?'" he explains, not "I'm taking over now."

Smith grounds KHP's purpose in three principles: service requires sacrifice, courtesy demands recognizing dignity in every person, and protection takes courage. By connecting these values to personal identity – "you are not playing FOR KHP, you ARE KHP" – he transforms abstract concepts into deeply meaningful guideposts for officers.

Want to build an organization where people feel valued and accomplish extraordinary things? Listen to this conversation between two former DEA colleagues who understand that effective leadership isn't about position or power – it's about creating environments where people know they matter. Subscribe now for more insights from law enforcement leaders transforming police culture from within.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Episode Introduction
• 1:25 Eric Smith's Law Enforcement Journey
• 6:55 DEA Experience and Local Partnerships
• 12:15 Transforming the Kansas Highway Patrol
• 19:40 Leadership Philosophy and Transparency
• 28:38 Building Relationships with Sheriffs
• 41:18 Service, Courtesy and Protection
• 50:38 Hope for Policing's Future

Transcript

Intro - Outro Announcement

00:03

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:32

Hey everybody, back with another episode. Steve Morreale here coming to you from Boston, and today we go to the Midwest and we are going to Kansas. And what a thrill to be able to talk to a colleague, a former DEA agent himself and executive, colonel Erik Smith, who is the superintendent of the Kansas Highway Patrol. How are you, Erik? Thank you very much for joining. 

Erik Smith Guest

00:54

Doing well this morning. Steve, thank you for having me. 

Steve Morreale Host

00:57

So good to have you, and I mean that and I want to get started to explain. You know I've had the ability to speak to a few in your position Matt Packard was one of them out in Colorado and we got to talk about the differences between the statewide jurisdiction that state agencies have. But you have a history, a storied history in law enforcement. Tell the listeners about how you started, how you got into policing in the first place. 

Erik Smith Guest

01:24

Well, if you want to go all the way back to the late 80s, just post high school years, I was interested in law enforcement. I always been attracted to law enforcement in the decades ago. You know, watching that growing up and watching chips and things like that, policing and law enforcement in general was a very attractive proposition. But I guess I never really saw myself going into that line of work. After high school I went into the trades and I went to a technical school for a little while and got a certification to work as a sheet metal mechanic and started working at Boeing, working on the 747 production line. 

02:06

About two weeks into my foray as a sheet metal mechanic the union went on strike and I realized you know why am I standing outside the picket line not getting paid for a bunch of whiny people? And I didn't like it. And I also had another part-time job that I picked up during that strike and it was at a. I was 18, 19 years old and it was at a gas station and a police sergeant would come through that gas station with regularity and he said you know, we have a dispatching program, it's called a reserve. It's a reserve dispatcher and you can fill in on shifts where we don't have enough availability and I quickly found out that reserve was a fancy term for unpaid labor. But I enjoyed it. I was hooked. 

02:53

I soon quit my high-paying union job at Boeing and became a city employee, working midnights dispatching, and I then moved on up to the Wichita and Sedgwick County 911 Center and did that for a couple more years and you know, somewhere between 21 and 22 years old I had my application in at the Kansas Highway Patrol, the Wichita Police Department and the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office and, as luck would have it, about two weeks after an academy started, a deputy quit, leaving another vacancy, and the sheriff was very progressive and very aggressive and he wanted to even though the academy had started two weeks ago. He wanted if somebody could start Monday morning he'd fill that spot and they called me on a Friday afternoon and I did two more shifts overnight at 911 and then started the academy Monday morning. So about nine years at the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office patrol. 

Steve Morreale Host

03:44

Deputy DEA task force officer patrol sergeant, that'll give you the bug, won't it? Yes? 

Erik Smith Guest

03:51

Boy, it did. So. I took an opportunity to promote one more time and go back out to patrol as a supervisor and then transitioned into an investigative role and, as you probably recall, the hiring process for DEA was very, very, very lengthy. But the minute I finished my college degree I dropped my application and about four years to the day later I reported to my first duty station in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Wow, so how many years with DEA. 21 years with DEA. Started in Minnesota, went back to Wichita on a voluntary transfer, promoted to a group supervisor in Kansas City, did my obligatory rotation through headquarters. 

I was assigned to OPR and so I did some 14 and 15 time in OPR and then I had a rabbi who was the SAC of St. Louis and he brought me back as the ASAC in Kansas City, got my SES down in Houston and then after about a year in Houston, thinking probably Houston was going to be the end of the line for me, and shortly after Ann Milgram was appointed as the administrator there was an opening as the chief inspector. My background in inspections and in OPR, I think, probably helped seal the deal there and so I went to headquarters as the chief inspector. About a year and a half later I had this opportunity to come back. So when my first grandson was born my wife gave me about nine months to get back to the Midwest. 

Steve Morreale Host

05:17

Imagine the wife kind of calling the shots, isn't that? 

Erik Smith Guest

05:20

something there, boss, she followed me around for two decades and it was my turn to do the right thing. I appreciate that that's something there, boss. 

Steve Morreale Host

05:24

She followed me around for two decades and it was my turn to do the right thing. I appreciate that. That's great. So we're talking to Erik Smith and he is the superintendent of the Kansas Highway Patrol. 

05:32

Lots of experience, both as a deputy sheriff and an investigator and a DEA agent rising to be an SES in inspection. So when I got on the phone with you, when I saw what you had posted and one of the reasons I think I was drawn to you is because of your DEA, our relationship with DEA, but that you are very proud of the organization you're in and you're touting the great stuff that people do, because so many people crap all over policing, as you well know. But this is quite a transition for you. But you're a Kansas boy yourself and here you are at the top of a Kansas Highway Patrol. What did your experience as a county sheriff, working with both DEA, state police and local organizations? How did that help frame your perspective on your DEA work and the requirement to have task force agencies to help us, and how did it get you ready for this particular job, the backbone of law enforcement, and it doesn't matter whether it's at the city, county, state or federal level. 

Erik Smith Guest

06:52

Without local police and without them doing their job at a high level, with a service-oriented mindset and a sacrifice-oriented mindset, law enforcement in this country would not be successful. And so you know, when I transitioned from nine years as a deputy sheriff into DEA, I still approach the job as, just as an example, going to Minneapolis I had a group supervisor that reminded me, and it was very easy for me to buy into this mindset I'm a fed, but it's their town and I'm just walking through it. I'm not going to be here forever. I need to do what I can to make an impact now. But the guys and the gals from Minneapolis, pd or the Hennepin County Sheriff. They were here before I got here, they're going to be here after I got here and again it's their town. I'm just walking through it. 

Steve Morreale Host

07:41

So that to me is very interesting, Erik. And now we're talking DEA to DEA and it always struck me, and no matter where we are, yes, we have worldwide reach with DEA, but it's most important that you are in somebody's home state, hometown. They know their problems. We have the might of the federal government and money and authority and really part of our job is to go and work with them and say who's your biggest pain in the ass, who's coming in and out of the revolving door because of your system? How can we help you use the might of the government, work in tandem to put that person in federal custody to make sure he doesn't walk out the door? At nine o'clock this morning I see you shaking your head. I know you've had that experience over and over again, but talk about it. 

Erik Smith Guest

08:29

Well, you know, as administrations have come and gone over the years, everybody's got you know their pet project right, whether it's PTARs or whether it's Kingpins or whether it's you know, OCEDTF or HIDTA programs. But there's the administrations that have been the most successful. Realize that there's not a one-size-fits-all solution. And I could be in a big field division, I could be 100 miles down the road in a district office, in a small resident office or a two-man POD. There's not a one-size-fits-all to that and you can't-. 

Steve Morreale Host

09:05

You have to meet the local needs. 

Erik Smith Guest

09:07

Absolutely, and it's different in every office. And if you're not willing to be adaptable and if you can't bend a little bit and figure out, okay, here's the federal program that I can apply to this situation in this locality. If you're not adaptable like that, you're not going to be successful. 

Steve Morreale Host

Well, you know it's interesting. So you think about Kingpin, or you think about our heroin work. Or you know, now it's fentanyl and before it was meth or whatever it might be, and you say, hey, that's all we can focus on. Well, that's not the problem here. So you have to sell to your bosses. Look, this is what they're asking for. This is what the population is suffering here. We are suffering here. We need to come in and help. Again. I see you're shaking your head. I know we've been through this before. It's very rare that I get to talk about this right, but it helps people understand and it's interesting. We talked about it for a millisecond before we started about the differentiation between our experience with DEA and our relationship with state and local and other federal agencies. Talk about that and how that sort of evolved in your mind. 

Erik Smith Guest

10:09

Well, probably one of the biggest examples that stands out in my mind is our reliance on task force officers. At least in the three divisions that I worked in, which were all relatively Midwest the Chicago division, St. Louis division, Houston division 60% or more of our workforce were TFOs. 

Steve Morreale Host

10:32

It was the same in Newark, New York and it was the same in New England. Absolutely yes, 

Erik Smith Guest

10:36

Really, yeah. So again, just the absolute fundamental requirement to rely on local knowledge, local resources focusing on local problems. I think that's just informed in every stop that I've been the reliance on even in headquarters, where there aren't any TFOs. The reliance on the people who have been somewhere else, done something else, experienced something else and now bring a different perspective. 

Steve Morreale Host

11:06

So we've been talking for a long time about DEA, but you have morphed into the big wig at Kansas Highway Patrol and I know that there's some weather issues coming up. 

11:16

You understand policing the root of policing but more importantly, you walk in, you get appointed, you're blessed, you're knighted as the boss and you are walking into an organization that you knew many years ago, but you don't always know what it is now. So here you are. One of the things that I tout is I think it's great for us as leaders to recognize that we're where we are and it's no longer about us, it's about the people around us, that it's about the people who are going to carry the ball and the torch from us, that we're about developing others. And again I saw a little smile on your face. But tell me how that? How do you walk into an organization where you don't know a lot of people? You're the boss, but you've got to kind of listen, figure out what's going on, make your decisions, but listen first and give feedback opportunities to your command staff and your troops. 

Erik Smith Guest

12:13

Well, listening you hit on it exactly is listening, and there's another layer to that, though. It's also important who you listen to. When you come into an organization and I came into an organization that had experienced a lot of strife there was a toxic relationship between the rank and file and the command staff, and some of it was deserved and some of it wasn't deserved. But listening is really what folks wanted the most. Listening is really what folks wanted the most. And if I came in and all I did was listen to the lieutenant colonel and the staff of majors, the executive bureau, commanders if I were to just listen to them, what I would have found was nothing to see here, folks, everything's fine, let's just keep doing what we're doing. Well, therein lies the problem. So you have to step out and listen to the lieutenants. You have to listen to the master troopers. You have to listen to the troopers. You have to listen to the civilian professional staff, because they have a different perspective. 

And again, it doesn't make them right. 

It just means there's a it helps to inform you 100%. So the first thing that I did really was just go on a statewide listening tour, and sometimes people really don't have a problem that they think you can fix or that they even want you to fix. They just want to be heard. On the flip side of that, if you can explain to them some of the why behind the decisions that are made, if you can give them a peek behind the curtain as to how the sausage is made, they'll suddenly realize, without you having to flaunt it in their face, ah, maybe their idea wasn't such a good idea, or maybe it's not as easy as I thought it was, or maybe I didn't see all the thousand other factors that you have to take into consideration when you make this decision. And so sometimes it's not the actual leadership, it's not the executive decisions, it's not to put the right foot in front of the left foot that really makes a difference to the ranking file. It's just simply being willing to be transparent and to engage them in conversation. 

Steve Morreale Host

14:16

Well, and that's interesting because I think we both were raised in different times where you've got the bars, somebody else has the stars and you're going to make the decision. 

14:32

Instead, what I found over and over again that for many, many years, people in those positions while I understand that, was the past, that that's not acceptable to today, because if we're going to understand the organization, we need to engage people, and that explanation of trying to explain why is really very important. But the people who are doing the job, they know what the impediments are, they know and even have some ideas on how to make it a little bit easier. But you have to be willing to listen and you have to be able to go back and talk to them to say I heard what you said, we've considered this. This is why it may not work, but we've modified it or whatever it is. And again, I see a smile on your, on your face. But this is a big job that you have and sometimes, turning that around, you mean you're going to listen to me and you're actually going to try to make some things happen. 

Erik Smith Guest

15:26

That's never happened before. Making things happen is the other half of the battle too, and so you know it's one thing to I just remember. So I started in July 7th 2023. And by the end of July I had troop meetings set up at our eight regional troops around the state, and so I would travel into these eight regions and everybody who lived regionally would show up at these troop meetings and someone would be bold and break the ice and they'd ask a salty question and I'd try to give them a sarcastic, smart remark just to generate some laughter and ease some tension. And then the floodgates would open and I would take notes. And so I think it struck people as odd that I would take notes. 

16:12

But you want to know where it really pissed off my command staff is when I came and I took those notes and I put them into a spreadsheet by troop and by issue, and then I sent that out to each of these Bureau commanders and said this is what we were told. I need you to provide an answer or I need you to come up with a solution. I need you to tell me why we're doing this, why we can't do this, or why it hasn't been fixed, and you know what the answer was? Well, because that's the way that we've always done it. Well, that's clearly not working, so let's figure something else out. That's the way that we've always done it. Well, that's clearly not working. So let's figure something else out. And I will tell you that if you go out once in July of 2023 to listen to folks and you take notes and then they don't start seeing, the water in the pond moving, they would not come back in July 2024 to have another conversation. 

17:03

I understand July 2024 to have another conversation. One of the things that that forced me to do is to find other jobs for some of these senior command staff, because the way things that had always been done is what they were comfortable with and they were not comfortable with change or they weren't on board with expanding their way of thinking. This is not my adage. I know everyone has heard this a thousand times, but it's find a way to yes. May not always be able to find a way to yes, but try to find a way to yes. 

Steve Morreale Host

17:33

The easy answer is always no, and the old book is that the answer to how is yes. In other words, how are we going to do that? How is that going to work? And you would say, well, here's what you do. You change your idea to say, yes, we're going to do it. Now figure out how to do it. Back into how, and that's exactly what you're saying. This is so enlightening to me. We're talking to Erik Smith and I appreciate it. 

17:55

So, part of what you had to do and you've already intimated that you've moved some people around. Look, if you don't want to play the game, if you don't get on board with change, then no problem, you're not going to lose your job, but we'll just push you out of the way. I need people who will help me move the organization forward. Fair statement, fair statement. And so you were working to change the culture, while they may not have realized that you were doing it. You understand what I'm saying, but I want to know this what did your time in inspections and OPR? How did that change or frame your mindset about accountability and expectations? And there's so many organizations out there, you know, that are not like DEA or the FBI or those that have active inspection, field inspections that they just go from year to year to year with nobody taking a look at how we do things. So has that changed your experience there? Has that changed to say we're going to keep looking at ourselves to constantly improve and here's how we're going to do it? 

Erik Smith Guest

18:58

So I borrowed a lot of lessons from the inspections division and brought them to the highway patrol. One of those was simply the way that you looked at personnel conduct, investigations or allegations of misconduct. Allegations of impropriety there seemed to be and I learned this in the inspections division is everybody brings their biases to an investigation. If you get an allegation at DEA that somebody got a DUI, those seem to be a dime a dozen and they we took them very seriously. There was a very strong penalty, you know 30 days on the bricks, but it was never fatal. I came to the highway patrol and if somebody even smelled alcohol in your breath, you'd probably get fired. 

19:47

Like it was, there was just a very rigid disciplinary structure here. 

Steve Morreale Host

19:52

No gray area. Black and white no gray area. And what? 

Erik Smith Guest

19:55

That what that did to people is. It made them gun shy. It made them afraid to make a mistake, and if you're afraid to make a mistake, you're afraid to work. And if you're afraid to work, you're not doing your job. You're not engaged in public service. You're engaged in public welfare. 

Steve Morreale Host

20:09

Job preservation yeah, with minimal involvement. I got you. 

Erik Smith Guest

20:16

So this idea that you know mistakes are a dime a dozen, you got to be willing to take risks. Very few things are fatal If you, if you tell the truth and if you own your mistakes. So I kind of adopted this mindset that I saw, I think, at a maybe an IACP conference or something. I remember taking a picture of a slide that was up in the front of the room and it said that what was the slide? How'd it go? Be soft on people and hard on problems. And so I took that mindset of let's not kill the person, let's not take away their livelihood, let's solve the problem. 

20:57

And sometimes the problem is I need you to understand that we're on the same team and we want the same things. And in order for us to achieve the same things you got to, you got to act a certain way, you got to live up to a certain standard and if you're willing to try, if you're willing to be coached and if you're willing to get on my team, there's a lot of things we can accomplish together. But you can't act like this, right? 

Steve Morreale Host

21:19

Well, so I what I like to say, and I don't know you know, weigh in on this. To me in the old days it was punitive, right, lots of things. Ah, you did this. I'm slapping you. You got out of the car without a hat. There's a day off, come on right. You know what I'm saying? We've all been there before. 

21:45

But to me, I think in today's environment we can't throw the baby out with the bath water. You have to set expectations and I want to talk about how you do that and make it very clear and hold people accountable, but corrective whenever possible versus punitive. So talk about that. 

Erik Smith Guest

21:55

Well, it's about behavior modification, and the lesson that I think that you can impart upon the rank and file to help them understand behavior modification is it's misconduct, allegations of misconduct, things that damage or tarnish the reputation. It affects the brand, it affects the agency, and we just had a graduation earlier this week and I talked about the brand. I talked about the TV series Yellowstone and how the ranch hands on the Yellowstone or the ranch hand on four sixes, they have that brand because that's who they belong to. 

22:33

And they work to preserve it. That's who they represent, and so here at KHP, we have a brand. We have the patch on our shoulder, we have the badge on our chest, but on the opposite we have our name tag, and so there are multiple brands that we're trying to defend here. It's our family at home, it's our parents who raised us, but it's also the agency, and the agency isn't somebody that we work for. The agency is us. We are the agency, and so if the agency has a bad reputation, it's because the people in it established that they did that. So behavior modification, corrective action, coaching people to live up to a certain standard in order to play on this team, to be one of us, um, but we the guest speaker at the graduation also brought this, this point up. It was Jerome Tang. He's the head coach of the Kansas state Wildcats big 12 men's basketball team and he was our guest speaker and he talked. 

Steve Morreale Host

23:34

Well, Steve, it's the little apple in Manhattan, Kansas, not the big apple. 

Erik Smith Guest

23:35

Okay, so coach Tang talked about a lesson he learned from Mike Krzyzewski, the coach at Duke. And when, when, when Coach Krzyzewski was coaching the USA men's basketball team, he told his players you are not playing for Team USA. They didn't understand that you are not playing for the United States of America. They didn't understand that you are Team USA, and four years from now there will be another Team USA, but right now it is you. You're not playing for them, you are them, and what you do, how you conduct yourself, how you play, how you execute, that becomes who Team USA is. And so, for our young troopers, again, it's not about pounding them on the head, running them out the door, taking 30 days of their pay. It's convincing them that they are KHP. And if they were proud to join the academy, if they were proud to graduate and put on that uniform and wear that badge, they've still got to be proud today, because that's who they are. 

Steve Morreale Host

24:33

So one of the things I run you may not know, but I run a command college at Liberty University and one of the things we started to do is to ask people to write their leadership philosophy. This blew their mind. What that meant was how do you treat others, how do you treat yourself, how do you ensure that you're a lifelong learner and how do you want your people to perceive you and such? And so it morphs. And the more they wrote, the more they recognized. You know, I've adopted this from this person. We've all had leaders, good leaders, and very often we work to emulate them. I'm never looking for you to be me right. If I'm developing you as a leader, I want you to customize it, but take a little piece of the good from that good from that good from that, and take someone from the bad leaders to avoid, avoid, avoid. And again, I see you smile. I have the benefit of seeing you. What came into mind when I was saying that? 

Erik Smith Guest

25:32

Well, Jim Shroba, the SAC of the St Louis division. Even after he retired he continued to be a mentor of mine and I remember as much as I hated to do it. Sometimes I would call and complain rather than pick his brain for ideas. Sometimes I would just vent and I would bitch and moan, and sometimes that was about bosses. And the one thing that he said which this was struck me when you said I'm not, you're not trying to be me, but we pick the good and we try to emulate the good. But one thing that he said when I was complaining about a bad boss. He said now you know what kind of SAC you don't want to be. And that makes me pause, even to this day, when I think about my conduct and how I'm perceived and how I carry myself in front of the troops. Is everything that you know is bad about a boss? Everything that you know causes you to call your mentor or to call your beat buddy or your shift partner and complain about the boss. They see that and so that's what. 

Steve Morreale Host

26:35

I don't want to be. It's avoiding those things that were done to you that you vow. And, by the way, we're talking to Erik Smith, the superintendent of the Kansas Highway Patrol, in his office in Topeka. If I asked you in a few words what your leadership philosophy consists of not the entire philosophy what would that be? 

Erik Smith Guest

26:57

Well, it consists of a couple of cheesy little axioms, I guess, and so it's not really crafted into a philosophy, but again, it starts with being hard on the problem and soft on the person. That's first and foremost. The second thing is why put off until tomorrow what you can do today? And what that is a reminder to me is there's always something to be done and you've got to keep your foot on the gas. The end to that yang is I'm relying on other people to execute my vision, and sometimes they get tired and sometimes you have to give them a break. So what I don't want to do is to push, push, push, push, push until I burned them out and pushed them out the door. So why put off until tomorrow? What you can do today is really just a reminder to if there's still something to do, let's get it done. Let's not sit around on break and chit chat for an hour, two hours at a time. Let's not come in late, let's not go home early. 

27:59

There are people depending on us to get things done. There are people depending on us to get things done. And then, probably the third one that I've really had to work on since I've been here and I've got some good staff around me that help remind me of this. Try not to bring such a rigid executive approach to your everyday interaction with folks. I've got a young executive assistant who, every time there's a birth announcement or every time there's a death announcement, she addresses an envelope to that person and puts a blank card on my desk and it forces me to stop and think that you know what people have lives outside of this agency and there are things that happen in their lives, good and bad that impact their lives and I should just take some time to acknowledge that. And so to send out a card or to show up at a retirement lunch or to acknowledge that somebody had a baby or that they lost their mom. That goes a long way and oftentimes I don't hear back from those people, but when I do, it's very, it's very meaningful. 

Steve Morreale Host

29:05

Well, and I think if you hear when people are realizing that you know about it through your executive assistant, I mean that's extremely meaningful to get it just a handwritten card Congratulations. I've heard Good luck, you know. It brings to my mind a couple of things. Talking about the elephant in the room, we have a tendency sometimes to walk into a meeting and something's going on and you can't talk about it. It's that kind of stuff and I think in my mind, a decent leader has humanity in mind, is vulnerable to a degree, in other words, honest enough that they don't know everything. Right, I can't know everything. They're humble and they have candor in their discussions, right, and it seems to be the elephant in the room. 

29:46

There may be something that, ok, there was a shooting the other day. You may have heard what's going on. We're investigating it. Here's what we know so far. I can't tell you everything, rather than just ignoring it. You know, even at DEA it's the same sort of thing. The leader has to be not be afraid to talk about the things that are going on. 

Erik Smith Guest

30:12

What's your sense of that? That starts at the top, and we had to instill a culture of transparency in the executive boardroom. I wanted to remind each of the majors who have a seat at that table that they have been afforded an opportunity by being at that table. 

30:29

Don't squander it, speak up, don't be scared, be bold, be courageous and use your voice, but it's not just them. Giving information one direction to me, I've got to do the same thing. Giving information one direction to me, I've got to do the same thing. So we've established a culture of transparency where sometimes our staff meetings drag on and on and on because we talk about everything, the minutiae across all six, all seven of our bureaus. We've got six sworn bureaus and one civilian bureau. 

30:58

We all talk about everything and everybody knows everything about everybody's business in that executive boardroom. 

Steve Morreale Host

31:07

No, silos. 

Erik Smith Guest

31:08

No silos, because to be transparent creates trust and to have conversations about the minutiae shows the vulnerability that you spoke about, and so I think that that helps us again with that global perspective on and keeping in mind that there are people behind each of these badge numbers. 

Steve Morreale Host

31:32

This is such a valuable conversation for those who are listening and you may not know, I'm very proud. There's people I don't know why, but there's people listening to this in 89 countries. I find it fascinating. I'm going to be reaching out to the chief constable and police Scotland very, very soon and I'll be talking to them so you get a perspective that's sort of global for sure. A couple of things that come to mind. It seems to me that what you're saying is I value your input and, by the same token, how do you push that that? I'm asking you for input. My expectation is you get input from your troops and bring it back to the table, because it's putting into practice what you're doing in the command staff meetings. 

Erik Smith Guest

32:14

Yeah, it's important to push that lesson downstream, because they can't just bring me their perspective, they have to bring me the perspectives of their captains and their lieutenants as well, and that takes effort and it requires accountability. 

Steve Morreale Host

32:29

And relationships, open relationships it does. 

Erik Smith Guest

32:32

And so what I've told my majors? You know we work here on the third floor of the state patrol general headquarters and all of their offices are on my floor with me. But, man, if I see them more than two or three days a week, then they're probably doing something wrong. They need to get on the road and they need to go visit their captains. They need to hear from their captains what's going on. They have a task list that they have to execute within their area of responsibility, so not everything can be done from the puzzle palace I was just going to say puzzle palace or the ivory tower. 

Steve Morreale Host

33:07

We've been there. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I actually just interviewed the author of Leading With Questions, mike Marquardt, just a couple of days ago, and that'll be up pretty soon. Do you find that you worked for people who sat around the table and just posed some thought-provoking questions what about this and what about that, and what are we doing well and what can we do better? And what do we learn from what happened in Minneapolis? What can we avoid in the future? Do you find that when you challenge people's intellect and curiosity, that that helps to new ideas? Yeah, I do. 

Erik Smith Guest

33:43

I like to have conversations like that. My struggle that I need to constantly remind myself of is once you ask the question, shut your mouth. 

Steve Morreale Host

33:50

If you'll excuse me for a second. You know both of us have been trained All right. When you're on the stand, answer the question and put a period on it, don't ramble. So it's the same thing. Now listen. 

Erik Smith Guest

34:01

So go ahead, talk about that. Yeah, yeah. So you know, character flaw I try not to finish people's sentences, but I'm so inclined to finish people's sentences because I want them to reach the same conclusion that I've reached. And so a constant struggle for me to sit back, keep my mouth shut, sit on my hands. You've pointed it out several times during the show already. You can see the reaction on my face. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:25

Yeah, you don't play poker very well there. 

Erik Smith Guest

34:27

I don't, and so the opposite is true. If I'm not smiling or smirking at something, my staff likes to say oh, I made the Colonel bristle, so apparently it's written all over my face, so I've got to watch that. I've got to stop that, because you know what that stifles people's willingness to speak their mind if they think that I'm going to bristle. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:48

So we're talking to the bristling colonel. 

Erik Smith Guest

34:50

Yeah, I'm the king of bristle. 

Steve Morreale Host

34:53

So, again interesting, it seems to me that there was a book that I've read before and Mike Roberto wrote it, and he is not a cop, he's actually a business professor. It's called why Great Leaders Don't Take Yes for an Answer. Managing for Conflict and Consensus by saying I'm not looking for yes, men, I'm looking for your ideas. If you think I'm going down the wrong road or there's some other perspective, I'd love to hear it. You can be respectful as you deliver that, but tell me how that has potentially, you know, sort of leaked into your interactions with your troops to say I'm here to listen. 

Erik Smith Guest

35:33

That's been a constant struggle over the last couple of years, because one of the things that I did was demonstrate that I would go listen and in listening to them we would articulate what problems are and then we'd start coming up with solutions. There's a downside to that too, especially in a paramilitary organization where there is a chain of command, and I've often had a little bit of conflict with my staff when it seems to them or I create the perception that I'm going to go listen to the rank and file, I'm going to hear all of their complaints and all of their gripes and all of their beefs, and then I'm going to come back with this list and a spreadsheet and say now go fix this, as opposed to I'm hearing things that they should already know if they had a relationship, if they were willing to go listen. So, on one hand, I'm quite sensitive to the fact that I'm breaking the chain of command. 

Intro - Outro Announcement

36:27

I understand, but at the same time. 

Erik Smith Guest

36:30

I need to demonstrate and I need to articulate to upper and middle level management. You could do the same thing and if you did the same thing, there would be very few problems to be brought to my attention. 

Steve Morreale Host

36:43

And I wouldn't have to come. I wouldn't have to go around because I would trust that you're bringing it to me that there's no blockage, there's no obstacle between the troops and this not just me as the leader, but you know the front office so we can deal with them and prioritize the many issues. It's interesting you say that so many years ago and I told you Jim McDonald I'll be talking to him tomorrow now the chief of LAPD. I remember him saying he was the number two at LAPD big department and you know it, and he said that when there was an officer in OIS, when there was an officer involved shooting, no matter what, I went to the scene and he said I used to show up at the scene. 

37:23

Perhaps they became a bit too often in the city of Los Angeles and I would be there and I would ask whoever the top dog was, a lieutenant or a sergeant, where's your captain, where's the major? And I'd say well, you know we got on the phone with why don't you call him and tell him I'm here, right, in other words? And through him repeatedly showing up, he was demonstrating modeling behavior that you expected them to do and it stopped happening. So you know, you've been there for a couple of years. Clearly some changes have happened. Are you pleased? Are they pleased? Do the people who are in your command staff understand the mission, the vision, the road that you're taking to improve the organization? And, by the way, when I say you, you as a group. 

Erik Smith Guest

38:17

I think in general terms they do, and I think that all of the accomplishments, the list of achievements that we've been able to notch on our belt or to put up on the whiteboard, really demonstrates that people do understand the vision. To put up on the white board really demonstrates that people do understand the vision, but full transparency. There are times where I have failed to articulate the vision, and that's painfully true when I hear stories like, for example, one of the things that we negotiated with the union in the last contract was the ability to test and evaluate 10-hour shifts as opposed to eight-hour shifts, and so we allowed one troop, the most heavily staffed troop in the state to do a pilot program of the 10-hour shifts and it worked swimmingly well for a variety of reasons, and so, as we started to make that available to other troops throughout the state, I overheard a question and an answer. 

39:13

So one of the captains who was resistant to doing this in his troop said why are we doing this? Why do we have to do this? And the answer was because the colonel wants us to. That showed me that I failed in articulating the vision. Nothing is ever done because the colonel wants it. It needs to be done because we've determined as a team that this is the best thing to do. This is what's right for the agency. 

Intro - Outro Announcement

39:38

So anytime and I've heard that a couple of times. Why are we doing that? 

Erik Smith Guest

39:41

Well, because that's what the colonel said I've done. I failed, then I've done a bad job at articulating the vision. 

Steve Morreale Host

39:47

If they think we're doing something because the colonel wants it, Well, and so you're owning not your mistake but you're failing to properly communicate and make sure, before people leave, that they understand. We're going to do this and this is the reason why and I need your buy-in right, which is pretty interesting. 

Erik Smith Guest

40:02

And look, if I allowed that to continue and if I repeated that cycle, we're going to be right back where we were two years ago when I got here, where nobody understood why decisions were being made, because nobody talked about it, right, great. 

Steve Morreale Host

40:14

So we'll begin to wind down because I know you're headed out to a meeting. I'm so grateful for you to take the time out of your busy schedule, but I wanted to ask a couple of things. So here you are, at the top, there's only 50 of you in the country, maybe 51 pretty soon, I'm kidding. So you belong to IACP. I'm sure you belong to other organizations. I'd be curious to know what those are. I'd be curious to know what you read to keep up to date and how that interaction with IACP or a state police you know SACOP or whatever it might be helps to frame. Here's my guess you go somewhere and you're sitting there and you're listening to Colorado or you're listening to California colleague or whomever it is, and you say we should bring this down. I'm sure you come back and you've got 100 ideas and they're saying, oh shit, the colonel's gone and he's going to have some good ideas. But how does that help you stay current and move the ball forward for the future? 

Erik Smith Guest

41:17

One of the difficult things that I encountered in coming here was a resistance to change and a tendency to have this austerity mindset, and that's probably common in state governments around the country, where you live with what you've got and you do what you can given the resources that you've got. But one of the things that's encouraged me about going to IACP or dialing into the AMVA calls Colonel Packard set up a thing with state patrols in the Northwest. It was called Eight States and they've invited us and we're now the Nine States organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

41:52

You're like the G9, the G8. Right. 

Erik Smith Guest

41:56

One of the things that is valuable and beneficial about engaging in those types of scenarios is to constantly understand what the industry standard is, and I don't care what you say pre-George Floyd or post-George Floyd. Most Americans notwithstanding the people who have the loudest voice and who have the biggest soapbox and have a news camera stuck in their face, irrespective of them, most Americans want in fact, they demand the best quality of law enforcement and public safety services. So, by engaging with your peers in IACP or in AMVA or in nine states, understanding what contemporary industry standards are and why, if I'm able to bring that back to the legislature, and if I'm able to convince our appropriators what the industry standard is and why they're happy to fund law enforcement because they expect it. 

Steve Morreale Host

42:58

Well, it's all about justification, right it is, but you got to ask. 

Erik Smith Guest

43:02

You can't just say oh, you know, this is a slim budget year, so we're probably just going to. No, you got to ask yeah Well, and I think you have to support it. 

Steve Morreale Host

43:10

We're probably just going to know. You got to ask yeah, well, and I think you have to support it. The whole idea of evidence-based policing I mean this is this is taking hold, using data to a different degree. I think that becomes important and so I'm very glad to hear that. That that helps you keep current and so, as busy as you are, are you getting feeds to help you understand? From particular, have you, have you paid attention to what's going on with the curve? Yes, to me, you belong there because you have taken steps towards, you know, working on a cultural shift of your organization that has statewide implications. So important, how important is the relationship that you and your people have with your county and local counterparts? 

Erik Smith Guest

43:55

Man. I'll tell you I didn't realize this. This is a brand new lesson to me. It's not something that I learned before, but the sheriffs are powerful. They're a powerful voice. They're a powerful unified group of dedicated professionals and if they think for a minute that you're cutting corners, or that you're selling them short, or that you know you're going to work your eight hours and then everything else is on them, they will cut you loose and they won't. They don't need you. Again, it goes back to this DEA mindset. It's their world. I'm just walking through it. This is their county. I'm not elected. They got elected and they're responsible to their constituents and if they can rely on me, they're going to use me. If they can't, they're Kansas Peace Officers Association. But then there are a variety of district meetings and monthly or quarterly county chiefs and sheriff's meetings. 

44:58

If you don't show up and act as if you're interested in what's happening, with them and that you're a true partner, then you're not and they know it and they'll let you know it. 

45:08

So those relationships that you spoke of to your original question if you can't, but then once you show up, you got to put up too, right? 

45:17

So one of the things I'm really proud of here is a year and a half ago the executive director of the Kansas Sheriffs Association recognized that there was a gap in our line of duty, death and funeral assistance planning and he asked me and I wonder sometimes if it was a test, but he asked me would you be willing as a state agency to sponsor a program or an organizational structure that would ensure that there's a volunteer in every aspect of a line of duty, death and for funeral assistance, whether that be your site coordinators or your traffic control or your honor guards or everything that, even the post-family care that comes into applying benefits. So obviously I recognized the gap and I was happy to do that. But again, the point to that story was, if you're going to show up, then you got to put up and show that you're willing to have skin in the game, you're willing to grind and to work and to make something happen to the benefit of their organization. 

Steve Morreale Host

46:15

Can I ask a question that might make you bristle again? I don't think it will. I don't think it will. How do you countermand the perspective or perception that a state police agency is superior to all others because of their state, In other words, how do you drive that that? We're partners. We may have stike with jurisdiction, but we're partners, you know is that was that an issue when you walked in, or is that something that doesn't exist with KH? 

Erik Smith Guest

46:45

You know, I don't. I don't necessarily think that there was a superiority complex. There may have been more of a all talk and no walk complex. 

46:56

And what I mean by that is I don't think they call you the big hat police, right, the troopers with the big campaign hats. When the big hats show up, the idea isn't that they're now in charge or that they're now taking over. The question that should come out of our mouth is what can I do to help? What can I do? What can I offer? If you need something, I got you. If you don't need anything, I'll get out of your hair. So I don't think that there was a culture or an environment like that when I got here, but to the extent there was a shortfall or a shortcoming in the relationship anywhere at all, it's making sure you're there with all of the resources that the state brings to bear. Show up and help. 

Steve Morreale Host

47:40

So I'll begin to wind down a little bit to just ask you this in terms of and I know how important setting expectations. Well, I just want to say it always strikes me that you can't hold people accountable if you don't articulate the expectations clearly, right, how can you expect somebody to do it when you don't? Because I've heard over and over again well, they were trained, they know what they're doing. You have to tell them what you expect. Tell me your perspective on that. 

Erik Smith Guest

48:10

It's a really easy question that you can ask yourself. Whether you're driving to work and the expectation is how you conduct yourself in public, whether you're on a traffic stop, how you conduct yourself in public. It doesn't matter what your relationship is with your family. But I talked about this early on in the podcast Remember the name tag as much as you remember the patch and the badge. Remember the name tag. What would my mom or dad think when I was right here? 

Intro - Outro Announcement

48:42

What would my dad? 

Erik Smith Guest

48:43

expect of me? What would my high school football coach expect of me? In this situation? The answer is always what else can I do? Is there anything else that I can do? It's about service. Service requires a sacrifice. 

48:56

I tell all our young recruits this that our motto at Kansas Highway Patrol is service, courtesy and protection. Well, service isn't just a word to put up on the wall. There's something behind that. Service requires a sacrifice, and what that means is it's not all about you anymore. It can't be what benefits me the most, what's the easiest on me. It's what can I do for somebody else? 

49:20

Courtesy. Courtesy isn't just being polite and smiling when you hand somebody the $386 citation for 101 and a 75. Courtesy requires treating people with dignity. It's recognizing the humanity in everyone, whether you're changing their tire on the side of the road or whether you just rustled them into handcuffs in the ditch beside that car. Courtesy requires recognizing the dignity in every human being. And finally, our motto service courtesy. The last word is protection. Protection goes right back around to service. It's going to require a sacrifice. Protection requires courage. You've got to be willing to step up and give it your all, even if that costs you everything. So I think you look at the motto on the wall and I try to tell the new recruits and the new graduates look at the motto on the wall service, courtesy and protection. It's a lot more than those three words. There's a lot more that comes from you for that. So it's a long-winded way to answer your question about expectations. 

Steve Morreale Host

50:18

You're saying those are the expectations. Internalize that, exactly, internalize that. Well, I'll leave you with this. One of the things I know that you realize is that policing is an extremely, a very small ratio of the time that is spent on the road is for locking people up or putting hands on people. 95% is service. And how do you drive that to make them realize that not everything is enforcement? We're peace officers, we're guardians, whatever the terms you choose. How do you drive that so that you're not thinking everything is chips, as we go back to what we said and we're going to chase people. But how do you do that? 

Erik Smith Guest

51:03

You got to emphasize community outreach programs. And community outreach programs, isn't you know? Old timers will bristle at that. They think I'll hug a thug, you know. But that's not what it is Coffee with a cop, right, right? So do we send our helicopter to land at a community event and, have you know, national night out or barbecue in the park? Absolutely we do, because we have to demonstrate that we're human beings and we live in this same community as you do. But even more importantly than that, we want to make sure that our troopers are the best equipped to deal with the worst situations. So we do emphasize high quality in our firearms and in our optics and in our secondary weapons platforms and in our patrol cars. 

51:48

We allow you to TVI to do a tactical vehicle intervention. We've got grapplers on the front of some of our cars. We've got a very strong pursuit policy that doesn't say don't chase. But we also have to remember, to your point of service, my guys also have to be equipped with a one and a half ton floor jack so that they can help somebody change a tire. They also have to be equipped with high one and a half ton floor jack so that they can help somebody change a tire. They also have to be equipped with high efficiency, battery operated impact wrenches so they can help change a tire. Depending on what type of vehicle platform you drive, you may have a gas can in your car so that you can help. So again to your point it's not all about enforcement. We're ready if the situation calls for it, but that's not why we're out there. We're out there to protect and to serve the public. 

Steve Morreale Host

52:34

Terrific. We've been talking to Erik Smith. It has been a very, very, very enjoyable time with you. How do you see, just in the end? How do you see? Do you have hope for the future? Do you see agencies becoming more responsive to the needs of community, more open to feedback? 

Erik Smith Guest

52:56

Well, yes, I do. I mean the good leaders that are up and coming and the good leaders that are in their seats now have a responsibility to develop the future, to plan for succession, and so, to the extent leaders understand the need to be responsive to the communities that they serve, I think that's a lesson that will continue to grow over time as we develop our future leaders. I think the community has done a very good job of demonstrating and vocalizing what they expect. I think we are probably beyond the us versus them mentality. It's not us versus them, it's all of us together, and like I said earlier on the podcast, I think the pendulum has swung to a point to where people understand what it looks like when you have bad policing. 

53:43

but people also understand that because of bad policing, you have to advocate for change. You can't defund them, you can't shut them off. You can't kick them out of schools. You can't kick them out of your communities. You need them. What does that look like? That's up to us to listen to and respond accordingly. 

Steve Morreale Host

53:57

Thank you so much for being here, Erik. I appreciate it. 

Erik Smith Guest

54:02

Thanks for having me. It was a fantastic invitation. It was a surprise, but it's good to hear from an old DEA colleague and an old cop. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk to you. 

Steve Morreale Host

54:11

You've said some wonderful things and it's great to see leaders like you, and that's really what we're trying to bring forward. So that's it. Another episode of the Cop Talk podcast is in the can. I want to thank you for listening. I want to remind you that a new book that I wrote, Choosing to Lead, is out there. If you're interested, it's available on Amazon, and I continue to tell you that if you have an idea, if you have feedback, please reach out. For me, most importantly, what I'd like you to do is remind yourselves that your job is to help and your job is to keep your people safe. So keep up the good work. Thanks for listening. We'll see you on the next episode. 

Intro - Outro Announcement

54:47

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.