From Italy to US: Police Commander's Journey - Diego Zannella - Lake Forest Park, WA Police

The CopDoc Podcast- Season 8 - Episode 158 

Ever wonder what American policing looks like through the eyes of someone trained in European military special forces? Commander Diego Zanella offers that rare perspective, having journeyed from Italian paratrooper to American police commander. His story isn't just about cultural transitions—it reveals universal leadership truths that transcend borders.

Born and raised in Florence, Zanella moved to Seattle at age 31 with minimal English skills but a wealth of tactical experience. After 9/11, he felt compelled to serve his adopted country, joining law enforcement rather than returning to military service. Now commanding patrol operations at Lake Forest Park Police Department near Seattle, Zanella brings fresh eyes to American policing traditions.

What makes this conversation particularly fascinating is Zanella's ability to compare European and American approaches to police leadership. While many European officers undergo 3-5 years of academic training before assuming leadership roles, American officers often pursue higher education mid-career. This contrast raises thought-provoking questions about how we develop police leaders.

Zanella champions what he calls the "upside-down pyramid" of leadership—where commanders exist primarily to support sergeants, who support officers, who serve the community. "I am not the face of the department," he emphasizes. "My officers are." This servant-leadership philosophy has shaped his approach across multiple agencies.

Perhaps most inspiring is Zanella's commitment to continuous learning. He maintains an Italian-language podcast sharing American policing methods with Carabinieri and Polizia officers, mentors aspiring leaders, and encourages officers to keep leadership journals for reflection. His parting wisdom resonates regardless of your field: "No matter your experience or education, keep learning something new every day, so tomorrow you can be better than today."

Whether you're in law enforcement, interested in cross-cultural leadership perspectives, or simply appreciate stories of reinvention, this conversation offers valuable insights on building bridges between traditions while never stopping your leadership journey. Subscribe to hear more thought-provoking discussions with innovative police leaders from around the world.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Diego Zanella
• 6:34 From Italian Special Forces to American Police
• 14:20 A Commander's View on Department Culture
• 22:02 Supporting Officers: The Upside-Down Pyramid
• 32:02 Leading with Questions and Reflection
• 43:15 The "Why" in Modern Policing
• 57:37 Final Thoughts: Never Stop Learning

Transcript

Intro/Outro: 0:00

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale: 0:29

Well, hello everybody. Steve Morreale coming to you from Boston, and this is another episode starting on the Cop Doc Podcast, and today we go out to the West Coast, from the East Coast to the West Coast, and we're talking to Diego Zanella. He is a commander at the Lake Forest Park Police Department in Washington State. How are you, Diego?

Diego Zanella: 0:50

Really good. Thank you for having me, Steve. I'm very honored to be here.

Steve Morreale: 0:55

So I'll tell the story to the audience about how this all came to be. And unfortunately, I wasn't very attentive to what was going on my web page and you had sent an email to me or a message to me many, many months ago and I didn't get back to you. I never saw it. So I reached out, said hey, are you still there? What are you doing? Why don't we chat? And I picked up the phone and we talked. So tell us the story, how you came up with this accent, my friend.

Diego Zanella: 1:30

Yes, I'm Italian. I was born and raised in Florence, Italy, and when I was 31, I got married with a lovely American woman and I decided to move here. And I moved to Seattle and I'm still here and I'm still married. So I'm very lucky. And after a few years that I was in Seattle, I decided to join the law enforcement field, and so I went to the academy and I became a cop.

Steve Morreale: 2:00

But before that in Italy you were with Special Forces, so talk about that a little bit.

Diego Zanella: 2:07

I was lucky. I was a paratrooper initially, so I loved to jump from helicopters and airplanes and so that was my passion and I did all the training and I got selected for the Special Forces. I was a weapon instructor and I was lucky. I was a weapon instructor and I was lucky. I traveled a lot, a lot of different countries. I had a lot of experiences that were pretty interesting, and after that I just stopped with that career and opened my own business for 10 years. I met my wife.

Steve Morreale: 2:40

So it would seem to me that there was a lot of cross-par similarities to what you did with special forces, to what we do in policing here.

Diego Zanella: 2:49

Yeah, that's true, and that's the reason why I decided to become a police officer, because it seems a little bit of a cliche. But with September 11, when 9-11 occurred, I felt like I needed to give back to the community, to this country that basically embraced me, or vice versa, and so I said I have to do something. What can I do? And my wife was like, please don't go in the military, you already did that. It's not a good idea. I know you're going to go towards some special forces stuff. So I thought maybe I will become a fireman or become a policeman. I thought maybe I will become a fireman or become a policeman and because of my previous training in Italy, I thought that law enforcement will be the best choice, the best way. And she accepted that's perfect, I will try to become a cop. And so that's how I went to the academy.

Steve Morreale: 3:41

So you're a commander in a smaller agency up in the Pacific Northwest, but you've been at four or five different agencies and I want to talk a little bit about that. But what is unique to me when I was talking to you? First of all, as we said, I lived in Italy for two years. I worked with the Carabinieri when I was in the military police as an investigator, and so it was very natural to hear your accent and for me to expose your accent to the listeners, which I think is so unique. You said something funny to me and I said that's a fake accent and you remember what you told me about when you were in SR Road.

Diego Zanella: 4:16

So I use my strong accent because for a couple of years, I was a school resource officer and I loved it. It was great to interact with the youth and I had elementary, middle school, high school students, so it was fantastic. But every time that I wanted to break the ice with them or with the parents, I was always saying the same thing. You know, I'm actually from Texas, but I heard that the Italian accent is really cool with women, and so I'm trying to learn it and everybody laughs, and so it's a good way to start the conversation.

Diego Zanella: 4:55

And for me, it was also good because some of the students who didn't want to talk to the police because, you know, there is this idea that we are against them it was kind of a challenge because they were listening to my little speech and after that they were like so are you really from Italy? What do you know about Italy? What do you know about geography? So it was a way to start a conversation and see that there is a person, an individual, behind the badge, behind the uniform, and so it was a good way to start a conversation with the young people. It really helped me tremendously to have this strong accent.

Steve Morreale: 5:33

I can't imagine how you might have been accepted in a police academy with that unique accent. It had to be one of the first times the Academy had ever heard somebody with an Italian accent 100% true.

Diego Zanella: 5:47

Everybody was saying never had somebody from Italy, never had somebody with a strong accent like yours. I can't really change it and it's honestly difficult to learn a new language when you're 31, because for kids it's really simple to switch between two, three languages, but for an adult it's not simple at all to learn a new language.

Steve Morreale: 6:08

Did you speak any English or learn English in Italy?

Diego Zanella: 6:11

No I didn't?

Steve Morreale: 6:12

Oh wow, and so you just started at 31?.

Diego Zanella: 6:15

Correct. I knew the basics. That doesn't really help too much to know how to say my cat is white, your dog is black when you have to do some professional interview, and so the basics are not enough to learn English.

Steve Morreale: 6:31

That's quite a story. So let's talk about your current role as a commander. Tell us about the organization, where it is and what you are responsible for there.

Diego Zanella: 6:49

Sure, Lake Forest Park Police Department is a small department. We have only 23 people between officers and support service personnel. We are in the Pacific Northwest, beautiful little town, only 13,000 people, but we are adjacent to Seattle. Little town, only 13,000 people, but we are adjacent to Seattle. So basically, all the problems you see in Seattle come up to Lake Forest Park. We're a good department for several reasons. First of all, for the chief. The reason why I'm saying that is because I changed several chiefs in my 20 years of career and you can see how having a progressive chief can make a difference. And I'm not talking about progressive like politically speaking.

Diego Zanella: 7:28

It's just progressive, because somebody wants to do the right thing, wants to think about the future. A chief wants to think about three steps ahead instead of one step ahead, and this trickles down to our commanders and sergeants and officers and so forth. We have a little bit of everything. We have one officer who works for the SWAT team, one is a negotiator, we have two detectives, we have a traffic unit, we have a K-9 unit, we have drones. So, for being a small department, we are really cutting edge.

Diego Zanella: 8:01

Definitely, we have a fantastic relationship with the community and, Steve, you know that better than me. If you don't have the support of the community, uh, your road is uphill, yes, for sure. And so it's fantastic when we go out and we talk to our community and they tell me I saw one of your officers interacting with two kids two days ago. He was fantastic. It makes you proud. Okay, I'm doing something good. So, basically, my job is to oversee patrol operations, and it's relatively new because for the last six years I was in charge of the administrative part. I was a lieutenant in charge of everything from records to evidence to training, so it was something new for me because I was coming from patrol. Previously, I was a commander for patrol operations for another department, so it was a great experience because you have to learn so many things. But it's great because now I have both sides of the department I know a little bit about the administrative part and I know a little bit about the operations part.

Steve Morreale: 9:11

So you have been in several police departments, but what strikes me is you have your own podcast, so I want you to talk about that. What it is? I presume it's in Italian, because it is aimed at helping Italian police understand the difference in the United States policing versus Italian policing and, of course, the Carabinieri being a military force, a police force. But what is it you're trying to do and what are the differences that you have seen between Italian policing, the Italian police mindset, and that in the United States?

Diego Zanella: 9:51

Yes, you're right 100%. It's a podcast in Italian. The name is Lo Scudo Blu. Lo Scudo Blu means the blue shield, and I really didn't think about creating a podcast in Italian.

Diego Zanella: 10:05

It was just a coincidence, because I knew a lot of carabinieri and poliziotti, so the policemen in Italy and we were exchanging information. They were asking a lot of questions like is it true that you can call a judge at two o'clock in the morning for a search warrant? It is true, because I was a detective for many years and I woke up a lot of judges and they were asking me the role of the prosecutor or the school resource officer or what team member does in the US. So this kind of questions. So we were exchanging information and one time a lieutenant for Carabinieri asked me why don't you do a podcast? It would be very interesting to see how law enforcement operates in the US. And I thought well, I listened to a lot of podcasts, but I've never thought about creating one and I'm not skilled in technology, I don't know how to talk, and he was like I think it would be just great. I know that you can. Just you know, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake, no big deal, but in the meantime, you can, you know, share the information. That will be very interesting.

Diego Zanella: 11:17

And so I thought, ok, let's try. And so I did the first episode and I had a ton of email from Carabinieri, Policia, civilians from Italy. They were like this is very interesting, and they had a bunch of questions. And so I was like, well, okay, I will do the second episode according to the questions that I just received. And so it went up and up and now I'm having fun with this podcast. But it's really cool because I'm also learning from my podcast, because clearly, the people in Italy they don't just ask questions, they also tell me. You know, in Italy we do this when we have a search warrant, and it's very interesting. I learned something. So it's something fun, but it's also something interesting and something where I can learn something new, and I love to learn.

Steve Morreale: 12:11

Yeah, it's one of my things A lifelong learner, it sounds like Absolutely, absolutely.

Steve Morreale: 12:15

Which I think is great. And, of course, you reached out to me and I would like to explore that for a moment. To explore that for a moment. It certainly validates what I am doing, or what we're doing here with the podcast and having a really a worldwide reach which, as I've said before, 89 countries listening, and that's amazing to me. But you've listened and you even suggested to other people to listen. What is it that drew you to even email me? I suppose it was happening to you by the Italian police and now it was your turn to reach out to the guy behind the podcast here.

Diego Zanella: 12:54

Well, everything was triggered by what I do in my off time. So I'm a mentor. I mentor people who want to become, you know, sergeant or lieutenants or people who want to become officers, and when I started the podcast, some of the Carabinieri and Poliziotti people from Policia didn't understand what mentorship was, and so they asked me. So you think you can help me to reach the next level in my career in Italy. I think so, or at least I can tell you what to read, what to listen, what to look for, and let's talk about that. And so I had a bunch of books that I thought were very, very interesting. I could help you to go to the next level. I had several podcasts that were interesting, and yours was one of them. Interesting books like yours.

Diego Zanella: 13:45

If you think about choosing to lead, it's an extremely good book. If you think about how can I learn more things, so when I go to the next oral board, I can look good, I can look prepared, I can look professional, and it doesn't matter where you are. You can be in Detroit, but you can be in Florence, in Italy, because the concepts are the same Leadership is leadership. If you move to Germany, do you think the leadership skills will be completely erased now? Because?

Steve Morreale: 14:13

no, they will be the same, and so that was my Because people are people and that's what we're trying to lead is other people. Inspire and push them to the next level and make them realize I mean, I know I'm speaking your language, but isn't that true? It's universal.

Diego Zanella: 14:29

And so you know, when people are like, hey, you know, I go to the gym, I walk the dog, I was like, ok, you know what is a very good thing to do Listen to a good, well-done, professional podcast. And you know, you learn so many things because, for example, I know that your podcast has so many important, very famous people. You had Kathleen O'Toole, you have Bill Bratton. I mean, if you listen for an hour, bill Bratton talking about his career, it's fantastic, it's incredible oh, Mikebest Abrashoff and it's something that you can gain, some little things that can help you during your next oral board and you become better, and it's very natural to become better. When you want to listen to something important, read something important talking to your peers, talking to people in other communities too, because leadership is not just for law enforcement. You can learn from somebody who is in marketing or medicine or in science.

Steve Morreale: 15:30

So I do not expect these thoughts from an Italian, but this is amazing to hear.

Diego Zanella: 15:41

Actually, Steve, I talked to a lot of Carabinieri who can speak decent English. They can understand. They were listening to your podcast. Really, yeah, I give them a kind of homework, so I'm like, okay, listen to this podcast, the number is such and such. And next week let's talk about the guests.

Diego Zanella: 16:01

Why do you think Kathleen O'Toole went to another country from US and was a leader there, and what kind of problems she found when she went to Ireland or whatever she went to, it was Ireland, right? So the next week we talk about that and I think, what do you think were the challenges for her? What do you think? Do you think she succeeded? Do you know if she wrote a book about that? The conversation starts and we are talking about leaders who do amazing things, and so I'm trying to convince somebody that it will help you, no matter what. Also, if you are a corporal and you want to become a sergeant, don't say, oh, I'm not going to listen to Carmen Best. She was the Seattle PD chief, so it's not, I don't relate to her. Are you sure? Because you can learn something from Carmen Best. I'm 100% sure. And so what we do is we listen to that you know podcast and after that we talk about the podcast and it's my way to try to help people.

Steve Morreale: 17:06

I think that's amazing, because what you're saying and, of course, one of my favorite sayings is you know, in every book you can't read and digest everything, but there are always nuggets. Take those nuggets and collect nuggets from different places and you'll be surprised when you reflect what you've gained from that. I like that idea because leadership is different for everybody. There is no one cookie cutter way. There is no one cookie cutter way. It is about almost customizing the approach that you have, both from the bad leaders that you've experienced and the good leaders, and you take a good piece from that. You take a little avoidance piece from the jackass. That's exactly how we grow.

Diego Zanella: 17:49

You said something that is extremely true. You said the word reflect. You know introspection, it's important. So when I tell my guys I would read this book, for example, it's your Ship, it's a fantastic book, read your book, let's talk about that. But think about how can I get some information from this book in my reality? And I'll give you an example. And of course, you wrote that book, so you're very familiar with that book.

Diego Zanella: 18:18

But when you read your book, the last portion of each chapter has a bunch of questions, right? My point is that I don't know why you created that. We didn't know each other at that time, so I have no clue. But it's extremely important because it allows me to talk to my people and say let's go to the first question. Why do you think Steve Morreale said that and what do you think about your department regarding this particular topic? Why do you think this is an important question? Do you think it's important for you to improve? Do you think this is an important question? Do you think it's important for you to improve? And do you think maybe there will be some sort of question that will be related to that question when you do your oral board?

Diego Zanella: 19:04

And it was very interesting to see that some of the questions were very similar to the question that Carabinieri and Policia had during their process, their testing process. Once again, leadership is the same all over the world. It does not change from Italy to US or vice versa. And so having those questions, when you stop and you say, okay, I know that you read chapter two. I'm sure that you understood chapter two. You're an intelligent person. If you are a marshal for the Carabinieri, you are pretty intelligent.

Diego Zanella: 19:35

So let's talk about question number three. Why do you think Steve wrote that and how can you apply that to your command and the conversations that those little questions trigger? It's absolutely amazing, and I learned too, because they tell me something about their leadership, because these are people who go to school for two, three, four, five years before becoming lieutenant. Completely different. It's completely different. If you want to become you know what they call you have to go to school for three years. You know what they call you have to go to school for three years where they teach you all the legal aspect of you know being a Carabinieri in Italy, to how to deal with the population, with the community.

Steve Morreale: 20:24

It strikes me that we hold ourselves in America and I'm not looking to disparage American policing, because I certainly love it, but we hold ourselves to be superior to all other nations that do this and yet, when I travel, I think, my goodness, it's completely different. You know you're talking in many countries that you actually go to a college, a police college, before you're going to come, or while you're there, you have to have college education, right? Not so here, right, completely different. Or that in UK or in Ireland, as I came to understand that you go to an academy, you come out, you experience, and then you are writing a portfolio by which you are judged. So you're actually reflecting to say I did this, this is what I learned to understand, this is how I apply, because it's all about applied learning, right, Diego? And, by the way, I haven't said we're talking to Diego Zanella and he is a commander at Lake Forest Park, Washington Police Department, so continue.

Diego Zanella: 21:29

No, you're right 100%. And I was lucky that I was able to finish my bachelor's degree in this country and I went for my master's and I finished my master's and, honestly, when I finished my master's I felt really proud. You know an Italian who could barely speak English finishing a master's. I was talking to this Carabinieri Policia and they were everybody had a master's, everybody was an attorney. So I was okay, I'm not so cool, but the point is that they have to have three or five years of structured schooling, structured academia, before they can become lieutenant, before they become captains.

Diego Zanella: 22:15

Here, if you think about it, it's vice versa you can become a captain and, oh, maybe I should get my master's. It's not the opposite. So you know, sometimes it makes you think. So sometimes these people are asking me how can you not have an academy? That is three years or four years or five years, because we always think about Americans, very professional law enforcement officers, but you don't go basically to an academy. Yeah, you go to an academy for 500, 700, 900 hours and that's it. That's the average of the academy time in US. And I met people from Norway and I had this lieutenant from Norway. He said that before taking command of the station. He had six years of study, because nobody can be a commander if you don't have six years of study.

Steve Morreale: 23:07

Turkey is the same way. They send so many of their officers here to America to get a master's degree, and sometimes a PhD, before they're going to come back and get promoted to a much higher rank.

Diego Zanella: 23:17

I believe that and this officer, he was a captain actually for the Norwegian police. He said that for 12 months he went to another country to learn from other people, from other police agencies. So the level of knowledge he has about police in general it's huge. So I hope that something will change here because, yes, of course I found a lot of very professional officers and supervisors and administrators in the US, but I think we lack a little bit of the academic portion.

Steve Morreale: 23:52

Here it's done voluntarily in a lot of ways. It's extremely important as you move up, because you're exposed when you're in a master's program. You're exposed with people from different agencies, from different organizations, and sometimes, if you broaden your horizons, it's not in criminal justice but it's in public administration. You're dealing with public managers and future public managers from all kinds of organizations, and it just helps you grow, doesn't it?

Diego Zanella: 24:17

It does because my personal experience, I took some classes with the American Military University and there were people from all over the country. It was very interesting to me talking with a sergeant from Florida and a lieutenant from Alaska and a regular officer from Texas, because you exchange information. How do you do that in your state and you understand the difference among states and you learn something. It opens your view, it opens your horizon, your view opens your horizon. It was very interesting to see how different departments in different states and different countries too, operate.

Steve Morreale: 25:01

So, yes.

Steve Morreale: 25:03

I want to talk about the different agencies that you worked for and talk about where you started and how you evolved. You were on a campus and what the differences were as you went from one to another. Each one has its own personality. They call it culture. The Curve is one of those organizations that is trying to work with police leaders to say it's time to talk about the culture, what's accepted in your organization, what's expected of your organization, those kinds of things. But what did you observe as a player in? Was it different? Four or five different agencies?

Diego Zanella: 25:46

Yes, it was, and everything started with an internship. So I asked probably the largest county in my state if they needed somebody for an internship, because I was finishing my bachelor's. Actually, we need somebody who can work with our detectives doing crime analysis, so that would be perfect. So I started to work with very large organizations. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of deputies. So I did some ride along. So you start to talk to the deputies, you start to talk with supervisors, with administrators, and I was lucky to work with a bunch of very cool detectives. I want to become a detective, and so they explained well, first of all you have to become a police officer, go on patrol for a few years and you have to understand how it works before even apply as a detective. And so I said fine with me.

Diego Zanella: 26:42

So I applied for several departments. I was accepted in one department in the south end of Seattle, fantastic department. I had a very good time, learned a lot. But after a while I needed to move to a different geographic area for personal reasons. So I did that and basically from there I worked for medium, for large department, for small department, and I was also lucky to work for a campus police department.

Diego Zanella: 27:11

That was interesting because it's a different way to do policing. Of course, I learned a lot in working there and how sometimes can be actually more complicated because you work with a lot of young adults and so the issues are different from a regular community that you can find in a small city or a medium city size, and so dynamics are very different. I learned a lot actually about diversity, because the department there had a lot of people from different backgrounds, different religions, different. Everything was amazing because the diversity among officers was amazing, and also the negative aspect, because we talk a lot about diversity and of course, everybody believes in diversity, but I believe in unity more than diversity. So I believe that the key point is to be professional, to get along and to think about the mission, the vision and the values of your department, not just oh, we are different, so we are going to be fine. Well, it takes more than that. Just because we are not the same race, we are not the same religion, we don't have the same sexual preferences, that doesn't mean that we are going to create a fantastic department. Sexual preferences that doesn't mean that we're going to create a fantastic department. Me and you, Steve need to work together on patrol and detective or as administrators if we want to succeed, if we want to bring the organization to the next level. So I learned a lot about diversity and pros and cons about them. Very good department.

Diego Zanella: 28:51

And after that current department at Lake Forest Park the new chief was kind of a restructuring a little bit the department and I think he had a very brilliant idea. He said I want two lieutenants, and one from the inside the organization and one from the outside so we can bring some new ideas, new experience and have a good mix, because I want to be the best department I can. And that's what happened. So I accepted position and I'm having a blast. It's a it's a great department. Lots of challenges, of course, like every department, but we are succeeding and we are doing a good job with the community. So I can't complain.

Steve Morreale: 29:35

And has his own podcast that tries to help Italian police understand American police and, in so doing, finding out how Italian police is running now, 20 or 30 years after you leave the country, and I think agencies have evolved and we continue to evolve, and we talked about technology and how important that is.

Steve Morreale: 30:10

I'm curious to know a couple of things. So here you are, a commander in patrol and you're sitting with sergeants and lieutenants who have patrol responsibilities, and to me, what's so important is setting the expectations and verbally letting people know what the expectations are. Here's the expectations I have of you. Sometimes leaders who are not afraid for feedback will say and I want to know what your expectations are of me. Here's the expectations of the community, as I understand it on a much more global scale. Here's the expectations of our elected officials. Here's the expectations of the chief and the commanders. How do you convey that to people as you're sitting down with either a new lieutenant, a new sergeant or even patrol to kind of align the group to achieve that mission, vision and goals that you spoke about?

Diego Zanella: 31:12

That's a good question, Steve. I have this image that the chief and I share quite often, and the image is an upside-down pyramid where the chief is at bottom and on top is two commanders and on top of that the sergeants and on top of that, the officers. Why I really like this image? Because it's the key of organizational success. Because the idea is that the chief is the one who supports everybody, supporting me and the other commander, and I have to support my sergeant so my sergeant can support the officer who are there. I am not there. I'm not the face of the department. My officers are the face of the department. The interactions that they have with the community is what makes the difference.

Diego Zanella: 32:05

So my job is to give everything to my sergeant in a way that they can support their squads and they can go out there and do a good job. And so I have expectation. I say I want you to do this and I am very clear on every single point I want to see. But I'm always clear that my job is to support the sergeant I'm talking to right now, because I'm saying, okay, this is what I want from you and this is what I'm giving you in order to do a good job, and if there is something that doesn't work, I need to know right away, because sometimes it's not very difficult to solve an issue before it becomes a problem. Let's not wait for the problem. And when you have an issue, because you are already a supervisor, I expect you to bring me two, three, four possible solutions.

Diego Zanella: 33:03

The thing that I don't like is a sergeant coming to me and say I don't know how to do this. What do you want me to do? Well, of course, I can tell you how to do it. What I want to see but that's not what I want to see from you I want to see coming to me and say this is the issue. I have three possible solutions. I need to talk to you. What do you think is the best solution? What do you think is the more proficient solution?

Steve Morreale: 33:27

It becomes a dialogue and you help guide them through it. Because I want to interrupt you for a minute, because I think you're saying some amazing things and, as we're sitting and talking to Diego Zanella, I'm thinking when I first got on the phone with you before this and said I want you on the podcast, and he said why me? And I now know why you, and that's why I had the opportunity to talk to you first, sort of to vet you, if you will, as to whether or not you were understandable. You clearly are, but you've got that approach to policing that is so important. But as you're sitting here on the podcast that you have listened to so many times, what was your thought as you heard?

Diego Zanella: 34:20

the intro music for the first time that you've listened to for so long, but all of a sudden you're the interviewee. Yeah, it's pretty captivating. Actually, I like that very much. But you know, Steve, having podcasts professional podcasts bring our level of professionalism to the next level, and I think you agree. I know that you are a very busy man because you teach. I'm sure you listen to podcasts too I do and I'm sure that you gain something from other podcasts to bring your podcast to the next level. Am I right?

Steve Morreale: 34:51

No, you're absolutely right, but I do. I get to meet so many different people and spread such good word and such good ideas to other people who are like-minded, like you and I that want to get to the next level. I want to be better. So I appreciate that and I hope that's why many people listen. But thank you for that, I appreciate it.

Diego Zanella: 35:12

So I like the fact that it's a discussion. We talk about a topic. Sometimes we are on the same page, sometimes you are not on the same page with your guests. It doesn't matter, it is a discussion. You cannot have a discussion with a book. I love to read a book, but if I have a question or I disagree about something, well, I can't do very much. Maybe if there is a conversation like we are having right now, we can have that discussion. We can improve because we are talking about topics that nowadays are pretty important. If you think how much scrutiny by the community we have to have these conversations. We have to get better. It's our job as leaders in this field.

Steve Morreale: 35:57

So it sounds to me a lot of what you do and you may or may not have had the opportunity to listen to Mike Marquardt, who wrote Leading with Questions, along with Bob Tiede, but it sounds to me that you have developed a capacity to ask questions to make people think, to let them go back and reflect, to not necessarily answer the question on the spot, to think about it, and when you're asking somebody to read a book or you're asking somebody to listen to a podcast and come back, that's exactly what you're doing, which I find quite fascinating and it's very valuable, because you're beginning to challenge their intellect, their curiosity, their creativity. Potentially, you know, do you lead with questions, whether you do it on purpose or not.

Diego Zanella: 36:47

Yes. So questions are very important because make you to reflect. So I tell all my guys, every single person who I mentored in the past, I told the person OK, first thing, I want you to buy a little diary, a little booklet where you write thoughts, where you write things that you just gained from your book or your podcast or your conversation or your training. So some people you know I have also old timers, right so they're like nope, I'm not going to write down what I feel in this moment and I'm like no, this is not about your feelings. Quite honestly, I don't care about your feelings because I'm here to help you to become a better leader, right? So don't write that. What I care is, if you were listening to a podcast when you were walking your dog and you listened to a concept that you were like, oh my gosh, this is super interesting, come back home, write it down and that's a concept that will stay with you and after three months, read about that and pose this question why did I write that on my diary? Why did I think that was important at that time? And it will develop a discussion with yourself. You know, being a leader, you have to have some sort of introspection, because you have to think about yourself and how you relate to the field. So that little phrase, that little word, that little concept, maybe it will become a very important concept during your next oral board or next test, and you don't know yet. So write it down and think about that and question yourself why did I write that? Why is this a very important concept in my field? Did it change in the last year? Did it change in the last five years?

Diego Zanella: 38:49

You know, think about AI, for example. It was unthinkable to use AI 10 years ago, right? Yes, it was not even something we didn't know that we could. And now we must think about AI, but we cannot pretend that it's not there. So if there is a concept about AI that you just talk to your instructor during a training session, write it down when you go home, because it might be very important two years from now when you are a captain, when you are a lieutenant, when you are the deputy chief for that department, and now you make decisions because a bunch of new officers are like, hey, Captain, can we use AI to write our reports? You can't just say no. You have to think about why you're saying no or why you're saying yes, absolutely. So there are pros and cons, like everything else in our life, but it's very important to think about new concepts, new ideas, and I think writing down things that you had in concepts that you developed during your training can be very helpful as a leader.

Steve Morreale: 39:59

I find that I do that. I can't drive in a car or lay in my bed without having a pad next to me, because when a thought comes to me, I want to purge it, get it on a piece of paper. I'll look at it in the morning or I'll look at it afterwards. And what does that mean? You hear something on the radio and you say, well, I need to check that out, or what a great idea. Or, my goodness, I just heard this police chief who did a tremendous job in explaining what the agency did to respond to a crisis. Maybe that's somebody I want to talk to. I want to check them. Our brains are so overwhelmed, overloaded with so much information. If you don't write it down, I don't have the recall. I want to ask a couple of questions of you. What's the best decision as a leader you have made that others thought was crazy at first?

Diego Zanella: 40:51

That's a very interesting question.

Steve Morreale: 40:54

Some new idea that you said we're going to try it and everybody thought it was crazy and then it worked out.

Diego Zanella: 41:01

So I went to work for a department and it was a brand new department for me and I decided to change the way we did our morning briefing, because I saw that people didn't pay attention. The exchange of information between the night shift and day shift there was just a monotone kind of. You know, that's what happened. I'm going to bed, I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't care about this department anymore because I need to sleep. You know, that's what happened. I'm going to bed, I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't care about this department anymore because I need to sleep, you know.

Diego Zanella: 41:35

And I thought do we really convey the right message right now, or can we change a little bit? And so I thought why don't we add something? Let's add a little bit about training or about a new legislative you know piece that is important. Or let's add a little bit about training or about a new legislative piece that is important, or let's add a phrase or something interesting or something funny, just to make it a little bit more interesting. And it kind of became a completely different briefing and I'm not saying that they were looking for something different, but it was evident that everybody was tired of the old way to do the briefing Too routine.

Steve Morreale: 42:16

Too routine, exactly, not engaging at all, right.

Diego Zanella: 42:19

Exactly and it didn't bring anything on our plate because the night shift didn't bring anything, the administrators didn't bring anything and the chief, the officer who were starting the day, didn't really care too much. So I was like, either way, we completely erase this process because it doesn't bring anything interesting, or we have to change it. And of course, at first everybody was like of course, this is the new guy, he has fantastic ideas. And after a while they were like well, actually we like the new way we do briefing. It's pretty interesting and we didn't think that we will enjoy briefing anymore and it was a good way. And sometimes, once again, doing briefing in that way triggered conversation about laws or about policies that we didn't have before, because we didn't have that conversation, that specific conversation, and so I thought it was a very good idea and I think they're still doing that.

Steve Morreale: 43:18

Well, that's okay, but at first resisted or not sure this is going to work, or we'll try it, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Diego Zanella: 43:25

Yeah, you know, cops are skeptical.

Steve Morreale: 43:28

No, no, no. What cops do you work with?

Diego Zanella: 43:32

yes, yes so at first was like, really do we really need to have a phrase or topic or a legislative piece? But after you know a few weeks they were like well, actually I heard that if this law passes, we can't do pursuits anymore. Okay, let's talk about that how we are going to obey the law and still be proficient. And so now I just triggered a conversation about something that is going to be important in a few months if that legislative piece gets approved.

Steve Morreale: 44:05

Well, it sounds to me like you, as a leader, is somebody who doesn't claim to know it all because certainly I don't, I'm still learning and gathers almost new ideas, and helps you almost reignite when you are engaging with others to get their opinion, their point of view, their views on an upcoming change, or what can we do better? What's not working, guys, that kind of stuff, true.

Diego Zanella: 44:38

True, 100%. I'll give you a personal example. One of our sergeants became commander and he's a fantastic guy and he took the role that I had for almost six years. And sometimes he comes and he says hey, Diego, I have this idea and why don't we change in this way? And he is very humble and he doesn't want to offend me. So it's like hey, you know, I know that you did this for the last six years, but I think there is a better way to do it. It's a more efficient way. So I have only two possibilities Say, oh no, this is a dumb idea, because I did that for six years and it really worked. Or I can say after reflecting, after thinking this is brilliant, why didn't I think that in the last six years? Let's do it, let's implement it that way, Because that's you know, it brings new things.

Diego Zanella: 45:34

So it's faster than before, it's better than before, it's more proficient than before. So, absolutely so you know, if there is something that can be done better, yeah, keep your ego out of the door. You know we are talking about how can we bring the organization, our, our organization, to the next level. And if it's not me who has that idea, but it's Steve Morreale, perfect, good job, Steve, let's do it. But also, if it's an officer Not just because you have bars or stars on your uniform it can be an officer coming and saying Commander, I have an idea, why don't we do this? I really thought about that.

Diego Zanella: 46:16

I would say, okay, bring me a proposal, Bring me something that is not just a vague idea. I want you to become a leader in this department, and leaders don't just bring vague ideas and hope for the best. You have to bring also specifics and pros and cons. And so, basically, now you are having a good idea brought to your table in a way that enhances also the skills of the officer to become the sergeant. It's a win-win situation, right? I had an officer saying I think Bola Rapp will be a great tool to have.

Steve Morreale: 46:55

I love that. I got smacked by that a couple of times.

Intro/Outro: 46:58

I was it hurts when it hits you. Oh I know exactly.

Steve Morreale: 47:01

You know exactly what I'm talking about, right?

Diego Zanella: 47:04

So, unfortunately, every single police department in the US has to deal with mentally ill people. Right, it's the reality. Yes, okay, it changed the percentage. For some departments it's 20% of the calls, for other departments 35% of the calls, but we have a lot of calls involving mentally ill people. The bullet app can be a very good tool because you don't use force, you stop the person and you provide services. You bring the person to the hospital, whatever facility you have in your city, right? So this officer came and he said I have this idea. I saw this new. It was a few years ago. I saw this new tool.

Diego Zanella: 47:43

What do you think I could have said I don't think we have the money. Thank you for the proposal. And not even talking to my chief or I can say why don't you give me more information about this baller app? Because I don't know very much. I saw a couple of videos on YouTube. It looks like a cool tool to have in our belt, but I'm not sure. I don't know how it works. I don't know how much it costs. I don't know if there is a national cost. I don't know anything. But don't give me just a vague idea. I think the baller up is great. I need something more specific, something more concrete, so I can make an evaluation and bring it to the chief as a proposal, and that's what he did.

Steve Morreale: 48:24

You've said it a couple of times talking to Diego Zanella out in Washington State, that as a leader in many different organizations, with my own experience at first it was, I think my natural reaction was to say no, that's not going to work. But as I've evolved, I really work hard to avoid saying no.

Steve Morreale: 48:47

Tell me more. I need to know more. And that's exactly what you're saying. Because the quickest way to shut ideas off or to people off is to no different than walking into your mother or your father. Ma, you want to go, I need $3. No, that's the answer. Right, you go to mom, I need $3. Yes. Well, now you're pitting one against the other.

Steve Morreale: 49:07

If you know what I'm saying, We've all done that. But to avoid saying no and to explore it, and exactly what you're saying is give me more detail, work up a little, and with AI, it's so easy for somebody to do that now to say BOLARAP, can you give me some information beyond the marketing material? Where has it worked effectively? What agencies has it? Call that agency and say tell me what your experience has been. The marketing material where has it worked effectively? What agencies has it? Call that agency and say tell me what your experience has been? And that begins to help justify and that's really what we have to do is justify why we need a new tool, why we need to go to another expense, right, Diego?

Diego Zanella: 49:44

Absolutely. And you said why we have to do this or why is a good idea. The why is super important nowadays? Because the new generation, the last couple of generations that came in our field, want to know the why. 20, 25, 30 years ago we didn't ask for the why to our sergeant. If I went to work in the morning and my sergeant 20 years ago, 25 years ago, said, hey, you need to do this, I didn't ask why, sergeant, do you want me to do that?

Steve Morreale: 50:14

You just salute. That's how we were trained Right.

Diego Zanella: 50:16

And maybe when I was going to the place I was thinking this seems a pretty dumb idea, but the sergeant tasked me with that, so I'll do it. The last couple of generations we hired don't say that, don't think that way. They are like commander. Why do you want me to do that? What is the purpose of this specific task? And honestly, Steve, I don't think it's a bad idea to ask why we're doing something. I think it's actually a good idea.

Steve Morreale: 50:41

Well, as somebody who's done SWAT work, the time and place is not unless I'm going to get somebody hurt, the decision I'm making in a tactical situation. That may not be the best time to say why, but you need to train your people and it sounds like you do to say if I can answer the why, I'll answer it. If I don't know it, I'll go and find out why, but I would appreciate you doing it. You know, sometimes I have to be directive. I need listen. You need to go two exits down to shut things off because this tanker may explode and you know cops want to. But I want to be close to when it explodes. I want to be there, I want to see it, I want to be a part of it. And you're thinking bigger. No, let's preserve public safety and shut the street down two blocks away to avoid that. Don't challenge me with my why, then. Am I right? Do you understand? As I'm making the distinction?

Diego Zanella: 51:36

I totally understand and I totally agree, because there are times where we cannot question our. You know the people above us, and your example about the SWAT operation is absolutely perfect, because I cannot tell my SWAT team leader hey, why do you want me on a corner? Is there any reason why I can't go?

Steve Morreale: 51:57

I want to be closer to the action. I know Exactly I want to kick the door.

Diego Zanella: 52:01

Why do you put me on perimeter? No, no, no, no, no. That's not the time to question why you want me on perimeter instead of kicking the door, you know? Oh, I don't like the shield, it's too heavy. I really don't like the shield, I don't want to.

Diego Zanella: 52:12

No, if I tell you that you are the shield guy, you are the shield guy period, but for other reasons, like especially patrol, when I have a task or when I have, for example, if I have a few complaints about a traffic issue in my city, I like to explain to the officers why we have to do extra patrol there, extra traffic enforcement there, because they will do it in a different way.

Diego Zanella: 52:39

They understand that I just didn't send them for because today is Tuesday, I wanted to do something different. No, there is a reason why because we receive a bunch of complaints and it's from this street to this street. There were three traffic accidents during the last, you know, three days. So now there is a why and the person, the officer who goes there. I'm sure that they will do a better job instead for me to say because I told you to do that, it doesn't work anymore in that way, so we have to do that. It doesn't work anymore in that way. So we have to think that the why is important nowadays. So not always, like you said, but for the most part we have to give the why.

Steve Morreale: 53:20

So we're running to the end of time for the podcast.

Diego Zanella: 53:26

I think it was super interesting for me. I want to thank you, Steve, for having me, because at the thank you, Steve, for having me because at the beginning of this podcast you said that I was kind of puzzled about why you wanted to have me, because it's true when you are just a commander for a small department. Am I really being interviewed by a person who interviewed Bill Bratton? I felt really strange in being but I have to explain.

Steve Morreale: 53:52

Remember that most departments in North America are very small departments, you know, 25 to 50 or 25 and under, and I think people have to understand that even those departments have talent and have forward thinkers, and that's the reason that I asked you to come on and have forward thinkers, and that's the reason that I asked you to come on. What I want to know is what question do you wish more police chiefs would ask their commanders or command staff? But they never do.

Diego Zanella: 54:24

How do you think I would improve? Because I work with some chiefs who had what they call the God's syndrome. They felt a little bit like God and so it's like I have a lot of experience. I am the one who has three or four stars in my uniform, so I decide what is the best thing to do, and when I talk to the people I mentor, I always make an example that makes sense to me. So one time this is a real story. One time I was coming back from a training with my chief not my current chief, it was several years ago.

Diego Zanella: 55:00

So we had a very good conversation coming back from training and the training was about basically asking our people for suggestion, because when we make a decision as administrators, we affect a lot of people. So you want to ask the people who will be affected by our decisions what they think right. So we are coming back and my chief is like, wow, we need to change our patrol vehicles and I really like this kind. And he says a specific brand and I'm like, uh, okay, maybe we can ask, we can do a little committee and see what patrol supervisor detectives think about a few different brands and different models. And my chief at that time is like I really like this model, this brand, I have it as a personal vehicle and we're going to buy that as a fleet.

Diego Zanella: 55:55

I'm like we are just coming back from a training where they told us ask the people who will be affected by the decision, so. But there was the gut syndrome and the heart was in the right spot. He said I like this car, it's a very comfortable car. I think our officer will be happy with this car and I was like that's not the point.

Steve Morreale: 56:16

The point is that they have to decide, so don't think that yeah, they're the ones driving on it 24-7, driving in it 24-7, yes, that's exactly right.

Diego Zanella: 56:25

Chiefs, don't drive 24-7, right Officers do so. Drive 24-7, right Officers do so. Ask them to try different models and to see which one is the most appropriate for patrol work. And so also, if the height wasn't a spot, the decision was not right, because there was a little bit of the God's syndrome, and so we need our chiefs to understand that sometimes they can make mistakes, like everybody else, and let's ask you know other people to help and let's collaborate.

Steve Morreale: 56:57

Well, that's great. We've been talking to Diego Zanella, and he is a commander in charge of patrol at Lake Forest Park, Washington Police Department, an Italian-American who has his own podcast as I said, a listener to the podcast and obviously, a reader of Choosing to Lead and I have to tell you it's been a pleasure to chat with you and to meet with you. We're going to stay connected, Diego, but you have the last word. What do you say to people who are listening In your mind.

Steve Morreale: 57:30

It's important either to continue listening or to continue growing. What are your thoughts?

Diego Zanella: 57:37

Learn. We need to learn all the time. It doesn't matter how much experience you have, it doesn't matter how your level of education is. Just because you have 25 years of experience in this field and you are a deputy chief or a chief and you have a master's degree or you are finishing your PhD, it doesn't matter. Go to the next training, read the next book, listen to the next podcast, do something, so tomorrow you can be better than today, professionally and also as a human being, of course, but we are talking about law enforcement. So keep learning, no matter the way that you're deciding to learn the next thing. It could be a good book, it could be a conversation, it could be a podcast, but keep learning if you want to improve the level of professionalism, the level of professionalism.

Steve Morreale: 58:33

Yeah, one of my favorite things is to say is that, for people who are leaders or emerging and inspiring leaders, find a mentor and be a mentor, because you will grow from that experience and clearly you are an amazing mentor.

Diego Zanella: 58:43

Thank you very much. I appreciate you saying that and I appreciate being a guest in this podcast, because I didn't expect to be called so thank you so much.

Steve Morreale: 58:52

Well, thanks for reaching out and thank you all for listening again. This is another episode of The CopDoc podcast that is now in the can. Here we are in Boston and we've been on the West Coast talking to Diego Zanella. I appreciate your time, your energy, thanks. Continue to reach out to me. Let me know who I should be talking, let me know that you're listening, let me know what questions I should be asking. I would appreciate it. Keep yourself safe, keep your community safe and, more importantly, keep your people safe. Thanks very much for listening. See you on the next step.

Intro/Outro: 59:29

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.