Jim Burch -From DOJ Halls to NPI: Building Evidence-Based, Human-Centered Policing

The CopDoc Podcast - Season 9 - Episode 162

Policing changes fastest when leaders listen first and translate ideas into real work. That’s the throughline in our conversation with Jim Burch, president of the National Policing Institute, who shares a candid view of how a small team amplifies big impact: distilling research into actionable guidance, helping agencies adapt—not copy—what works elsewhere, and building partnerships that move from concept to implementation. Jim draws on decades across DOJ and ATF, and he’s blunt about what unlocks progress: focused mission, field-driven priorities, and a healthy respect for regional differences that shape what “evidence-based” looks like on the ground.

We dig into NPI’s multi-city hot spots training experiment that cut crime by more than 20 percent without driving arrests up, and how implementation science turns studies into day-to-day practice. Jim opens up about cross-sector learning—borrowing just-in-time training from airlines and safety culture from fire and EMS—and why policing earns “profession” status when cities budget for standards, education, and officer wellness, not just cars and calls. He also tackles mission creep, the limits of co-response in under-resourced regions, and the practical ways agencies can pool capacity without losing local trust.

AI is the tension point many leaders feel. Jim explains why NPI moved from tight restrictions to governed adoption—policies, transparency, and training—after seeing real productivity gains in analysis, drafting, and data work. Forget the narrow use-case fights; the near-term upside is smarter internal workflows that free experts to make better decisions faster. Paired with clear research summaries and careful adaptation, AI becomes a legitimate force multiplier for public service.

If you care about evidence-based policing, officer wellness, and practical innovation that respects community nuance, this conversation offers both realism and hope. Subscribe, share with a colleague who wrestles with these issues, and leave a review telling us where your agency most needs help—implementation, AI literacy, or wellness—so we can explore it next.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Intros, and Jim’s Roots
• 2:45 DOJ Years and Lessons in Partnership
• 6:05 Leading NPI: Listen Before You Lead
• 10:20 Mission, Focus, and Regional Nuance
• 14:30 Translating Research for Practitioners
• 18:30 Adaptation, Not Copy-Paste Implementation
• 22:05 Learning From Other Sectors
• 26:10 Field Engagement and Real Pain Points
• 29:20 Landmark Hot Spots Training Results
• 31:45 Fellows, LEADS, and Reality Checks
• 35:10 Policing as Profession vs Vocation
• 38:20 Post-2020 Reform, Funding, and Staffing
• 42:00 Convening Power and Mission Creep
• 45:05 Co-Response Limits and Regional Models
• 48:00 Leading With Questions Inside Agencies
• 50:35 Bringing Conference Insights Back
• 53:00 Funding Cuts and Service Orientation
• 55:15 AI Adoption: Policy to Practice
• 59:20 Teaching Leaders to Use AI Wisely
• 1:03:00 Wellness, Safety Culture, and CIT

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing, communities, academia, and other government agencies. And now, please join Dr. Steve Morreale Host and Industry Thought Leaders as they share their insights and experience on The Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale Host

Hey everybody, coming in from Boston, Steve Morreale Host, and we've got another episode of The CopDoc Podcast starting right now. We're headed down to Florida to Jim Birch, who is the big shot over at the National Police National Policing Institute and previously at the Department of Justice. Hello there. 

Jim Burch Guest

Hey Steve, how are you? 

Steve Morreale Host

Doing well. Thank you very much. We got to talk for a few minutes before we started, but I just wanted to ask if you can start by telling us what your background is. How the heck did you end up at NPI? I know you were at DOJ and ATF, but tell us your trajectory. What drew you to policing in the first place?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, well, you know, it's a familiar story, Steve. it's in the DNA, right? And so I grew up in a police family. You know, my father was in law enforcement in Maryland for 20 years. That was really all I knew was seeing him go to work every day in a uniform. And it was the typical kind of setup. He went to work in his cruiser, and my mom was a member of the FOP Auxiliary and you know, participated with the other with the other women who were a part of that effort. And so that was that was my that was my world, growing up in that. he had a take-home car, so our family car was a police car. So everywhere we went, he was handling calls off duty. Of course, they would respond off duty as many do. it kind of got me into it. Although I will tell you, it's interesting because I this isn't at all where I thought I would be. when I came out of high school, I remember saying to my father, college isn't for me. I'm not gonna go to college and I'm not gonna work in policing. I'm gonna learn a trade or something like that. But why I was thinking that, I have no idea. But he said to me, that's not what you're gonna do. he said, you're gonna take some classes in criminal justice because I know it will be of interest to you. So he set me up with a friend of his who's retired law enforcement, was teaching a class on criminal investigations. And lo and behold, he was absolutely right as he always was. and I ended up going into University of Maryland and graduating with a bachelor's degree in criminal justice and criminology. From there, went to work in the private sector, working for a DOJ contractor. I worked for a while in the state court system, spent some time in local agencies doing different, you know, volunteer type work or part-time type work. and then from there, went over to the Department of Justice as a federal employee in 1994. I'll never forget it. I applied for a job. 12 months went by. I forgot that I had applied for a job. Then I got a phone call one day from the personnel office saying, you know, congratulations, you've been selected. And I said, for what? For the job you applied for over a year ago. I said, I haven't even interviewed. They said, that's okay. We will select you anyway. It's not based on qualifications, apparently. that started my 20-year path throughout DOJ. 

And I'll tell you, Steve, I think I had probably one of the best jobs in the Department of Justice, and that was working together with state and local law enforcement around the country on issues from  gang issues, youth gang issues, juvenile crime corrections issues, technology issues, law enforcement sniper 

 incident in DC and helping agencies, you know, deal with the resource challenges of that. I mean, they got to see a lot of really interesting things and learn a lot about the profession as a result of those experiences. Ultimately, being asked to run the Bureau of Justice Assistance for a couple of years as an acting director. it was interesting that that that gig, they told me it would only be a couple of days. So they said, don't move your office, don't order business cards. This will be over before you can even get that done. Two and a half years later, I was still doing it. but enjoyed it. and then after that became deputy assistant attorney general, overseeing all of OJP's grant programs and offices. 

And in my last year at DOJ, I was asked to go over to ATF and work for Director Todd Jones there to be acting assistant director overseeing everything from congressional and public affairs to some of their records type issues and intergovernmental relations, which is how ATF you know relates to state and local law enforcement and other organizations and associations around the country. So it's really just a great run for me. But it was time for after 20 years of being in the federal system, it was time for me to do something different. And my friend Jim Bueermann over at the Police Foundation met with him. And you can't say no to Jim.

Steve Morreale Host 

I didn't say no when he said, You want to be a fellow for future police? Yes, I'll do it. Jim. I know. 

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, just an amazing guy, and infectious, you know. he said, Look, I need, you know, I want you to come over and consider this role. And I said, I'm all in. I'm ready to ready to do something different. And it's amazing. It's been over 10 years since I made that leap, and of course, now serving as the president of the of the organization after Jim. Just been a great run.

Steve Morreale Host

So let's talk. while you were there, there was a name change, and so now you are the president of the National Policing Institute, used to be the Foundation. And look, at this time funding is up in the air. But you have to keep the engine running. And I want you to talk about some of the discussions. Let me go back to this. So you've got Beerman, you come in, you've been at five or six different places, if not more. But more importantly, I want to know you walking into a new organization, taking over as the President, sitting around the table, trying to make use of the that talent, the intellect, the curiosity, the intelligence of the group, and pointing them in the right direction. What does a guy who comes from DOJ, now to the now NPI, talk about? How do you set the table as a leader?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, that's a that's a great question, Steve. And this is something that I think about a lot and I try to sort of convince everybody this is one of the most important things you can do. And that is instead of coming in talking, I come in listening. You know, and I think one of the things I recognize coming into the police foundation now called the National Policing Institute, is that it's an organization that has been blessed over the years to have people in its halls that are some of the brightest minds of policing, some of the most well-known names in policing, you know, even political scientists, right? 

James Q. Wilson, for example, Patrick Murphy, Hubert Williams, so many others who've been a part of this organization. But the staff, Steve, the staff are some of the brightest people that I've met and had the opportunity to work with. And so for me, it was a little bit easy because all I had to do was really listen to their insights and the and the ideas that they had and combine that with what I had been hearing from the field, right, from the profession of policing around the country during my time at DOJ, and just kind of put those two things together. And thankfully it's worked out extraordinarily well. We've  just been blessed with some great people at NPI.

Steve Morreale Host 

So if you were to tell people, people listen, I'm shocked by this, but all over the world, 96 different countries, and we don't have a National Police College, but the mission in your mind of NPI, the National Policing Institute, I think what you just said, my presumption is you're also listening to the field. So tell me how you craft the mission, how you reframe the mission at times, how you reform the mission at times.

Jim Burch Guest

For us, it was really a matter of focus and making sure that we're putting, you know, we're a small organization, right? Right now, less than 50 people in our organization. so for us it's all about focus, making sure that all of the effort that you're putting into the work that you're doing is going into the right place. so you're right about the listening to the field. And if we're not listening to the field, then we're failing as an organization. You know, one of the one of the most interesting lessons that Jim Bueermann taught me when I first came in, and it's really kind of embarrassing to admit that I didn't really understand this at the when I was at the in the federal system. What I've learned was that there's a tremendous difference between the between policing in the East Coast and policing in the in the West Coast, and in other words, and in between, yes, for sure. Yes, in between. And I didn't really understand the depth of that difference and the complexity and nuances of that difference. And Jim really helped me understand that. And he said, you know, for a long time, this organization had the reputation of being an East Coast centric organization, and I hadn't seen that. 

And so, I think that's an example of where we had to really sort of listen and observe what you're seeing and hearing in the field. And that's a challenge for us because as you mentioned, our mission is really about bringing in ideas, innovations, and evidence-based policing principles into agencies, which kind of sets us up in a way for coming in to sort of, if you will, I hate this term, but it's almost it almost feels like it sort of positions us to come in preaching. But we can't do that, right? That's not at all what we're intended to do and be. We're meant to be a partner to law enforcement leaders as they think about the question of there's gotta be a better way, right? Or as Pat Murphy once said, we're here to challenge the status quo in policing. And we don't challenge the status quo in policing because we disrespect the policing or we disrespect the profession or those who work in it. For goodness sakes, it's completely the opposite. We do this job because we love the profession so much and we understand how vital it is for our democracy and that that's what protects the rule of law. And so it's a challenge to do what we do and to do it well and right, but it does begin with listening and paying attention to what the field is doing and why they're doing it.

Steve Morreale Host 

So, how do you do that? How do you look this the PERFs [JB1] out there? there are other organizations, IACP, there are chief associations in different areas. to try to find your place. There has been a tremendous rise in evidence-based policing in America, but still has not taken hold, I would say. much more in Europe and when I talk to people in New Zealand, they're grasping it. We're not quite there just yet. And yet some of what you do is doing research. Let's identify an issue, let's identify a vacuum, let's see what we can do, let's see what best practices are out there, what are other people doing inside and outside the country, I presume. And let's share that back. But now a professor[JB2]  myself, we have this way of writing in academia or in scholarship that really gets very dense. And most police, and I know see the journal article[JB3] , most police don't understand it, don't want to go read through 18 pages. So that idea of translational research becomes really important. And I know that you and the NPI does a good job of that. Talk about that. Talk about the conversations you have with these scholars that come in and they, I got this stuff, Jim, I got it, great. How can we sell it? isn't that true? You have to ask those questions.

Jim Burch Guest

Oh my gosh. truer words have never been spoken, Steve. It's fascinating. I'll hear, and we love the researchers, we respect the researchers. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be able to do what we do. But you know, they get excited about the n (sample size), right? The sample size. They get excited about you know when something worked out methodologically. but when practitioners look at the articles, they want to know what's in the abstract, what are the findings, right?

Steve Morreale Host 

What’s in it for me?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, just tell me what I need to know, right? not how it was done or how it wasn't done, what you know, what the methodological challenges were. That's important for someone else, but for practitioners, they want to know what the bottom line is. And so I think what's really interesting about this, Steve, is that we've been thinking a lot about this in the last year. We've spent a lot of time talking to folks over at the UK College of Policing, which I think has just done an amazing job.

Steve Morreale Host

I'm hoping to talk to Andy Marsh, actually. Yeah.

Jim Burch Guest

And Andy and his team are phenomenal, especially their What Works repository. But what I like about what they do, and I don't know if you've if you happen to see this, but one of the things in their website that I found was so interesting to me was they were explaining what a logic model was, right, for policing executives and police leaders. And what I loved about it was it was essentially a picture.

Steve Morreale Host 

Yeah, an infographic. 

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, it was essentially an infographic, right? If you have this problem and you take these steps to address it, here's what we think is going to happen as a result. And so what we how that's affected us is it's really caused us to re-examine what we call our theory of change in our organization. So for a long time, we thought we do the research, we share the research, people implement the research.

Steve Morreale Host

We're done.

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, exactly. That's a that's a fallacy beyond words, right? Yeah. So what we're thinking about today is where we're definitely continuing to be involved in developing the research. We've got some really interesting studies underway today, right now. We've just had a few years go by where we've completed a number of significant studies, some of them covered by Time magazine, for example. So, really, really impactful studies. That's important. The sharing of the information and the translation is also important, but there's more to it than that. And so what we've been focusing on internally is helping agencies not just hear what has worked somewhere else, but helping them think through how to adapt those practices to their own agencies and communities. So I think we've made a mistake. This is my personal view, but I think we've made a mistake to give people the impression, give practitioners the impression that if we tell you about an evidence-based practice, you're confined in implementing that practice exactly in that one way, right?

Steve Morreale Host

Because what I think what you're saying is there is never just one right way.

Jim Burch Guest

No, right.

Steve Morreale Host

Adapt it, customize it.

Jim Burch Guest

Exactly. And that adaptation piece is something that I think a lot of us are just not doing enough of. And so we've really kind of recommitted ourselves to helping with adaptation, but then it doesn't stop there. There also has to be an implementation aspect of this. And so we can't just, you know, this is the fallacy of technical assistance, I think, is that we've been coming into these agencies on invitation and saying, we're here to help you implement, let's say, I'm gonna say gunshot detection technologies. Well, here's the way Indianapolis did it, here's the way Los Angeles did it, Denver did it. You've got to do it exactly like one of these three, and we're gonna give you the cookbook for how those three did it. That's not the answer. The answer is here's what's important about implementation based on the lessons learned from all of these different places.

Steve Morreale Host

Here's the common themes, right?

Jim Burch Guest

Common themes, exactly. Not in the weeds, but themes. Now let us help you implement something here based on those lessons learned, right? What went right and what went wrong in other places, and how do we plan for that? So that implementation assistance, which is, in the academic world we call it implementation science. But in that, but it what we're talking about is how do we help agencies adopt, right? We're gonna do this, and then how do we help them adapt and implement?

Steve Morreale Host

You know, it's where we're headed. It strikes me too, you know, having spent so much time in higher education and some of the things that we think about, I'm engaged at Roger Williams and at Liberty with executive development and such. And I'm always saying to people, I want you to open your mind. I don't want you to think like me, but I do want you to think. I want you to consider, let's talk about leadership and leadership theories. That that boggles so many people's minds. And the reality is that just know what these theories are and then pick and choose the best and customize it for you, for you what works for you. And it's the same, it's the same thing. If and by the way, let's stop looking, this is my own two cents, but let's stop looking at police. What's the word I want to say? And why don't we look at things that are being used in other industries and then work to adapt? Which is so important. I remember as a kid in 1972, when I was in college, I'm reading Ionone, right? Supervision of police. He's still writing it. It's on its 27th edition, and he's dead. So is there something different out there? Can we learn from other organizations? Can we learn from what medicine is doing? What can we learn what insurance companies are, what banking is doing, are there things that are do they're doing? So I see your head shaking, but I'm curious about that. You know, let's take the blinders off and look outside our little world.

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, this is actually one of the things I talked to Jim Beerman about when I was contemplating leaving the Federal Service and coming over to NPI. I felt like this was something we need to do more of. it's not just private sector to policing. I think it's also other public sectors, right?

Steve Morreale Host

That's true too, yes.

Jim Burch Guest

We don't do enough to bring in and adapt the lessons from public health into policing, for example. We don't do enough to think about things like the private sector, I think they're solving some really tough problems. They solve their problems for profit motives typically. but those problem-solving methods can bring different ways of thinking, I think, can be useful. So you know Phil Keith, of course.

Steve Morreale Host

I do a long time ago, yeah.

Jim Burch Guest

Ran the COPS office for a long time. Phil Keith told me that when he was coming up, he had an opportunity through the LEAA program to go and spend some time over at GE [General Electric], learning about how GE makes corporate decisions, right? And what their processes are for decision making. And I and if I remember correctly, Phil told me that was one of the most influential learnings that he experienced in his career. And so, how do we replicate that idea? And so one of the things we're thinking about, Steve, is how do we find companies that have solved problems? Let's take, for example, the training problem and policing., people unfortunately, many people think, well, if you have new content, you just pull all the officers into a room and you give them the training for five days. Well, they don't think about who's covering patrol functions, who's handling investigations while that's happening, and what it costs and how much time it takes to train an agency of any size. But private companies have those same challenges, right? Take, for example, airlines or cruise ship industries. They don't have a lot of downtime, right? They're constant turning, but they're constantly looking for ways to train. 

And so I happen to see this. I was on a on a cruise in the last year, and I watched these employees encounter some broken equipment, and one of them tried to fix it and they didn't fix it right so a manager came over and the manager says, (they're expecting the manager to solve the problem, right? You come in and you're gonna fix it.) The manager says, no, I'm not gonna fix it. I'm gonna pull everybody in and I'm gonna explain to you what you've done right and what you've done wrong and how you're gonna go about solving this problem on your own. That's like just in time training, It's happening right there on the ground using it as teachable moment. It's a teachable moment, and that's an example of something that that I think we need to learn from and think about how can we replicate that in policing.

Steve Morreale Host

Well, you know, and we're talking to Jim Burch Guest, and I haven't said that in a bit. He's the president over at the National Policing Institute. But I remember many years ago when I was with DEA, I was able to go to similar, I want to say I think it was Cigna. It was an insurance training for supervision and management, and I went on the bootstrap program. And everybody was looking at me funny, because I have a gun on, I've got a badge, I'm like, what the hell are you doing here? I was the only cop in 200 people. But they were as curious about me as I was about them and what they were trying to do. And again, I think it began to set my mind to say is what can we learn, what can we adapt, right? 

What what's going on here? Because people are people, right? Whether they carry a gun or not, people are people, and I think that's really important. So that bootstrap program doesn't exist anymore, but ICP it helped me. You know, when we we're talking about so many of the issues, safety and wellness, community trust and legitimacy, I'm looking at things from your website, violence and force reduction and de-escalation, all of those kinds of things. And it seems to me, how with limited resources, just like a police agency, how do you make a decision on what's going to get attention? How do you begin to prioritize and constantly reprioritize? But I asked a question earlier, and I didn't ask it fully. And that is how do you engage the field? How do you do you conduct surveys? What are the issues? You know, do you look for vacuums? Do you give them a menu of things that you're aware of and what becomes important to them? How do you do that, Jim?

Jim Burch Guest 

I wish we had a better way. Unfortunately, it's you know, surveys often feel to us like the easiest way to do this. It's kind of how we think is as an organization that includes you know scientists. But that's not the most ideal way to get the kind of feedback that that we want. And so, you know, we're trying to do as many convenings as we can where we bring together law enforcement leaders and practitioners and let them talk while we listen and we facilitate the conversation a little bit. But we want to hear what they have to say about things like technology and what works well for them and what doesn't work well for them. the other thing is, being present at some of the meetings that occur for partner organizations. next week I'll be at Major Cities Chiefs Association, for example. incredibly valuable conversation to sit, be able to sit and listen to. And we're privileged to be able to be there. but they do a round table, where they talk about the issues that each of those agencies, over 70 agencies, are experiencing. What's their pain points? To me, that's one of the most valuable things to hear because there are often things that come up in those lists that we have no idea are occurring every day or that are true problems.

Steve Morreale Host

It keeps your finger on the pulse.

Jim Burch Guest 

Keeps your finger on the pulse. absorbing, that's really kind of what we spend a ton of time doing in our organization, is having your ears open and absorbing as much content as we possibly can from a variety of sources, right? So it's social media, online sources, talking to agencies, getting out and visiting with agencies directly. these are the things that I think we try to do all the time. We also have our fellows program, as you as you know, because you've been a part of it. so we convene our fellows quarterly where we listen to what their input is. We just did this the other day with them. we shared an idea with them and said, give us your feedback on this. Does this seem viable or not? and so I think that's the kind of thing we have to do a lot more of. Because if we're not listening like that, then we're just kind of spinning our wheels, right? We're on a treadmill spending the grant dollars producing something that may or may not meet the needs of the field. So we're only going to be as successful as we are in terms of how well we listen.

Steve Morreale Host

So let's talk about your outputs. In other words, the documents that you share and the learning that you have come to find and again sharing with the organization. There's some many, many things. What are you most proud of that you're putting out there to help police read about things and understand and put their mark on it for their agencies?

Jim Burch Guest

I think it's hard for hard for me to sort of put my finger on one thing. I mentioned earlier that we've been involved in some truly kind of landmark research. I can't let go of that history easily, right? we just recently tested advanced training for law enforcement officers working in hot spots, and that experiment, and which occurred in three different cities, that experiment found the same outcome in each one of those cities, and that is that just by providing this training and ensuring that officers are able to use the training in their day-to-day work with people in the community, we were able to see reduced crime without increasing arrests. So this wasn't a situation where we just had massive enforcement, right? We were able to solve problems, work together in the community, be a deterrence factor. We didn't harm the reputation of policing in the communities, right? The trust was maintained between community and police. But I think that was the study that I mentioned was picked up by Time magazine, right? So Time magazine talked about how significant this was, right? That we were able to see that kind of a reduction. I think it was over 20% reduction in each one of those cities or in total. that's the kind of thing that I think is really just mind-blowing when you think about an experiment has these kinds of findings. So, how do we now get those results out to the profession and help other agencies implement that? Right. But that's an example of one I think I'm most proud of.

Steve Morreale Host

So let's talk a little bit about the fellows program and how you see that. Much like I don't know, you probably had already left, but the LEADS program at NIJ, which may or may not survive, but it in my mind I wish it was around when I was a young buck coming up, because I see some amazing things coming from that. I presume that you're hitching your wagon to some of those who have gone through the LEADS program because they're practitioners and scholars working together, which is important. so kind compare that LEADS with the Fellows and how you find the benefit of bringing the fellows in and throwing a couple of ideas from at them and also soliciting ideas from them. How does that help sort of figure out what the focus will be?

Jim Burch Guest

Well, it's a reality check for us. we have a lot of people in our organization that have worked in policing and in law enforcement or in the criminal justice system. I'm really almost everybody that works there has some connection to the profession. So in some ways, I think you would think that we should be thinking along the same lines already. but it's just amazing to me. Even just in the in the recent conversation that we had with our fellows, we were talking about analyzing a body worn camera video, for example. We were talking about how you handle the volume of videos that need to be that need to be analyzed in order for you to really understand what's happening in in those sort of day-to-day engagements. But what the feedback from the group was is that you know, this is a great topic to be taking on, and it's an important place for us to think about how to innovate and use technology to our advantage. But we can't overlook one of the sort of fundamental challenges, and that is that there are a lot of agreements in place between agencies and labor organizations that really kind of can stipulate what body camera footage gets reviewed and for what purpose and when that can happen and how it can happen. And that's something that I think we generally had awareness of, but we're not aware of how acute some of those restrictions can be. I shouldn't say restrictions, but agreements, right? 

These are agreements that are in place between agencies and labor groups. so that's you know, that that helped us. It kind of stopped us from going down one road. Exactly. we were really headed full speed down one path. And hearing this from them really caused us to rethink the problem itself and the solution to the problem. so you know, that's I think a great example. Now, I will tell you that there's a tremendous amount of crossover between the LEADS Scholars program and our Fellows program. There's probably 20 to 30 percent overlap between those two programs.

Steve Morreale Host

Well, I and I can see why. I can see that they will gravitate, you know, those who are in that in that space are going to seek opportunities to continue the work once they're off of the lead scholar as an as a new class comes in, and you can take advantage of that, I would think, because I think that's extremely valuable. I know when I when I talk to one of the things I'm focusing on is the 40 under 40 with IACP. So I'm starting to look at people and interview people who are in that domain with the hopes of writing a book called Future Voices in Policing. But it strikes me that there is such talent out there. And I want to say that I want to ask this, not to say this, I want to ask this that with you being around policing as long as you have and myself, very often I think other people, even on campus, see policing as a vocation, as a blue-collar job, not as a profession. And I've asked many people who I've interviewed, high-ranking officials, to say, what do you think makes it a profession? And what do we have to do to kind of ramp up the that mindset that we are a profession? What's your take on that?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, that's a great question. It's one we've debated a lot internally. You know, and I think this the vocational thing is a concern. I think that there are there are some who probably have the belief that it is a vocation. Probably in some places it's treated like a vocation. But the reality is, Steve, as you as you just alluded to a moment ago, there's some incredibly bright minds and great thinker, thinking and innovation taking place in policing today. And it really has become the profession that that it that it can and needs to be. I mean, you talk about the lead scholars, for example. You know, some of these folks are people with PhDs who've been 20 years in policing, they're applying their expertise in terms of academic expertise.

Steve Morreale Host

I call them pracademics, yes.

Jim Burch Guest

Unbelievable results that they're having. And so, you know, I really do think we need to keep pushing in this direction of a profession. The world has become more complex. And as the world has become and our communities have become more complex socially, politically, geographically, otherwise, those who work in our communities also have to advance with it. When I think about NPI and the things that we have to recognize as an organization that serves this profession, it's that this is a profession. Even though we don't have a uniform set of standards that all policing entities and police officers must follow, right? That seems to be one of the kind of foundational pieces of the definition of a profession. I think we're still there. We have a long way to go, especially in places that have been under-resourced, right? And a lot of policing agencies and officers are under-resourced. So we have a lot of work to do in that area. But I think that's I think the future for this profession is very bright.

Steve Morreale Host

So as you look at the move towards reform, which took hold after Floyd and Brown were killed, we're several years down the road, and we really faced a bump in the road, and it was worldwide. Do you see sort of the pendulum swinging a little bit back and that we are beginning to pay attention and to make some reforms or to be become innovative and provide better service and be better listeners rather than telling people how we're gonna police them, asking them? Do you see a lot of that happening?

Jim Burch Guest

I do see the pendulum swinging back. I mean, we read articles every week that talk about states and cities reversing decisions that were made, you know, post-2020 during the defund movement or era or mistake. and so I think we're starting to see that be reversed. And I and that's a I think that's a positive sign. I still think we have a problem, Steve. I think that those who control the purse strings at the state level and the city level tend to think of policing as more of a vocation. And so I think they resource it as if it is a vocation, right? All you need is a body, a car, , and the tools that they need to go out and respond when someone calls 911. If they were really thinking about policing as a profession and they really respected policing as a profession and they want professional policing, then they should be resourcing policing in that way, not giving them a marginal budget and asking them to do a job that is very, very challenging to do. And so I do see the pendulum swinging. It's interesting. 

I've been watching this lately we've seen a deployment of guard troops and federal personnel into cities around the country. And I recently did an interview about this and with NPR, and NPR said, You do you think that that the addition of these people, officers, agents, guardsmen, in these communities is going to have an impact on crime. And I think one of the things I said is it's hard to find a police department in America that wouldn't see a positive impact on public safety if you increase their staffing by 50%. Right. And I think that's you know, technically what we're seeing in some of these places, like Washington, D.C., you saw a tremendous influx of personnel and agents. And even though the agents weren't necessarily doing hands-on, they were primarily backing up officers, MPD officers, they did see a reduction in crime. but that's not hugely surprising. 

As Bill Bratton has said many times, Commissioner Bratton, cops matter, cops count. Right. And so you add more police on the beat and put them into the communities, you're gonna deter some crime. The question for me is, is that affordable? Is that sustainable? And so a long way to answer your question there, but I hope that was helpful.

Steve Morreale Host

No, it is. I want to ask, it seems to me you used to put out ideas in American policing. And I saw one recently, so it seems like it's back on the and I use them in school constantly with my students, and I think they're very valuable. And Harvard Kennedy School used to do the roundtables and used to put some stuff out, Frank Hartman, and that died. And I and I just wonder where the vacuum must be, because you've got the town halls with PERF. But it seems to me that there's so much opportunity for us to convene, as you had said, groups of people to focus on what's going on, what the priority is, what they're worried about, what they're trying to do, how do we rate? I just wonder how we fill that void. But I'll ask this. This is even more pointed. Do you think police has experienced mission creep?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, I think it's hard to deny that it has. But, I think that there's more recognition of that today than there has been. there's more conversation about that. So I think that there is some pushback on it. I also am not convinced that some of the response to that mission creep is ultimately going to be the answer everywhere. So we talk about co-response and alternative response models. Great, great idea. It seems to be having some very positive effects in a lot of places. But does every community have the resources to be able to provide alternative response or co-responses? I mean, talk about we did a survey in rural communities and small towns and found that they're just not able to staff up to provide that type of alternative response. And so that means it's going to continue to fall to the police in those places. it goes back to that resource in question.

Steve Morreale Host

It does. And I like to think that that one way to overcome that is to sort of regionalize or or create a cooperative. So you've got maybe somebody who is functioning for three or four different agencies, and today you're in this agency, tomorrow you're this agency, but we'll get you to the next door to go and respond to these kinds of things. I know that I've been working with Garda on their pilot program for putting psychiatric nurses with a two-person car. And they're responding to calls in Limerick, it's the pilot right now, but they're responding to calls that have to do with alcohol, suicide issues, obviously drug issues, and handing it over to a psychiatric nurse, but the police are there to help, so it's a it's a team effort. So I appreciate that. You must you get to talk to a lot of people, a lot of chiefs. And you're always, if you're listening, I presume that you also do a little leading with questions by asking them to draw them out. What are the questions that you're asking police chiefs or police leaders so that you can better understand what's on their plate?

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, it really is very much contextual, right? I mean there are times where we want something very specific, right? We're probing something very specific. And in those cases, the questions obviously are specific. But I think one of the more sort of interesting conversations that I think we've that we've been a part of recently, where we've asked those types of leading questions, is hearing leaders talk about how they are managing some of today's issues, if you will, managing or experiencing some of today's issues, just issues in society generally, right? 

The polarization of views amongst people and communities, for example, that that same situation exists in agencies. So, how are you as an agency leader managing that? How are you communicating within your organization? How are you building the culture that you want to see within your organization that can resist or sustain through those very challenging times, right? And policing during elections is the example that I think we where we saw this, right? Is how are you talking to your officers or your deputies about about what they're gonna be hearing from the community and what they think is happening with elections, right? And do they have concerns, right? And so Sheriff Paul Penzone was in a meeting with us a little over a year ago. And I just I love hearing how he himself took on some of these kinds of issues. He knew that his deputies would be hearing from people in the community on both sides of these issues, and he didn't want his deputies to be uninformed or be drawn in in a way that was that was unhelpful. And so he worked with the election officials there in Maricopa County and brought his deputies in for tours, behind the scene tours, into vote counting facilities and other types of things, so that they could see firsthand for themselves what's the security in this, what's the transparency in this in this building or this environment, so that they were better equipped to handle some of the difficult situations they were going to be put in during the election time. Those are the things that I love hearing executives talk about.

Steve Morreale Host

Well, they're thinking forward, right? They're trying to prevent an issue before it happens.

Jim Burch Guest

And they're thinking out of the box, right? Like, who comes up with that? It just was a brilliant idea. Those are the to me, are the golden nuggets, right? Is really being able to hear those kind of incredible ideas. It wasn't just you preach to somebody, you sent out a memo, something like that. You really did something proactive and significant. I think I think those are the kinds of things I want to hear.

Steve Morreale Host

This is wide-ranging. I'm okay with that. You know, one of the things that strikes me too I'm gonna throw a couple of things. Civilianization, in other words, professional staff, and where we where we are with that. Officer wellness, how important that is for you. And but your staff must go crazy when you come back from a meeting, from MCCA with all your notes and all your ideas. I know I say I say that to police chiefs. Okay, you just come back from an IACP conference, you listen to all, you show up in the staff in the command staff meeting, they must be sick, like, oh my God, what's he gonna come at us with now? What do we have to try next? So I see you smiling and chuckling. Tell me how that how that return is for you and your staff. Because you come back excited, I'm sure.

Jim Burch Guest

I do, and I will answer that question if you tell me who you've been talking to.

Steve Morreale Host

I just know. I know what we're like, yes.

Jim Burch Guest

it's actually worse than that, Steve. They don't look they don't worry about me coming back, they worry about me being there because I'm usually texting, right?

Steve Morreale Host

I just heard this, yeah.

Jim Burch Guest

I know crazy texting, right? Yeah, multiple text all day long. Look, I'm part of the team just like everybody else. And when I go to those meetings, I take notes. I write down what you know, the I talked about major cities chiefs and their round table, or it could be the PERF Town Hall, or it could be an IACP session or National Sheriff's meeting, it doesn't matter. I'm taking notes and I'm gonna send those notes back and we're gonna have discussions about what we're hearing because I that's we have to do that, right? We don't have the resources to send our entire team to these events, right? I think we're only sending four or five staff to IACP this year, which is a reduction for us. So my job is to be there, be the ears for the rest of the organization and bring that back in. 

But what I love about it is this team that that I'm fortunate to be a part of at NPI, we've just got some great thinkers. And it's you got to think about this. You've got a scientist sitting next to somebody who spent 25 years in policing, both talking about these problems. They're on the same team. And so they're talking about what I'm saying the conversation was around at one of these kinds of events, and they're starting to iterate on it. Well, you know, we heard a little bit about this, and these other places are addressing it. Maybe we can find a way to connect these two groups, or maybe we can create a service, right? And as we think, Steve, with federal funding becoming more and more scarce. I mean, we're 70% federally funded today. Dare I say we're gonna be a lot less federally funded after this year and next,  because we've seen significant cuts. We've lost several million dollars in grant funding now and had two or three rounds of staff layoffs. You know, our organization is shifting towards more of a service-oriented posture where we want to provide consultative services to state and local agencies and do the work that we do through those services. So it's imperative for me to bring back what we hear from these conferences and to share it with the team. It's in many ways, the classic example of knowledge work, right? that's really the business that we're in.

Steve Morreale Host

And that's what you have.

Jim Burch Guest

This is all knowledge workers. Yeah.

Steve Morreale Host

What innovations do you see on the horizon? AI being a big one.

Jim Burch Guest

Yeah, let's talk about AI for a minute. You know, it's interesting. I lay this out for you. So a little over a year ago, we had a conversation internally about needing to really guard closely how the staff use AI internal. And I think it was only one or two people in the organization that had access to a paid you know, AI service like a Chat GPT or a Gemini or something like that. So we were very careful with it initially because we weren't we didn't understand it and we were afraid that it might be misapplied. Over time we began to see the benefits of staff, certain staff kind of experimenting with it internally. But I went to an Axon week conference and I had a chance to listen to Rick Smith's, the CEO of Axon. I had a chance to listen to his keynote address. So you're in there for a little bit and you're listening to him. And he threw out this statistic that was really mind-blowing, and I won't get it exactly right, but he said something like his he expects the leaders in his organization to use AI multiple times a day or multiple times a week. 

And that really got me thinking, are we taking the wrong posture in our own organization and kind of restricting how people use this tool? And so since that time, we've opened it up, we've set some ground rules, we have a policy in place in our organization, we've talked about how it can be used, and we're now seeing the benefits of it in multiple ways and places. And it's incredible what it has done for us. Everything from coding to some data cleaning type work to content generation or review and almost like rewriting of content. Right.

Steve Morreale Host

If I can interrupt, I just finished writing the book, Leading Police with Police with AI, and I am shocked. I will say in the last year or two, the same experience that you've had, Jim. 

We're talking to Jim Burch Guest from the National Policing Institute, that it has come full circle. It is beginning to about me, and it's giving me ideas, first of all, you have to challenge it. You have to say, stop hallucinating, give me verifiable sources. And when you do that, it's using your brain to drive the machine, not the machine driving you. I know you know that. And that changes everything. It has increased my productivity, it helps me organize. You can leave a meeting. If you're not doing this, I'm happy to get on and show you, but you leave a meeting and you start dictating what you had, and it is gonna make sense out of those chaotic thoughts that you have, you know, to try to organize what it is. And I'm not saying let it write police reports, although Axon's gonna try that. I understand, and other companies will. But in terms of a police chief for you as the executive, it can be very, very beneficial to organizing you, making you more productive, and actually seeing in the words you say what you didn't even recognize you were saying, right? Go ahead, Jim. I see. I'm sorry to interrupt, but you understand. You we're all living and learning.

Jim Burch Guest

Well, but I think you're making a great point here, Steve. We're now seeing this, right? I mean, you and myself and many others are seeing the real benefits of this. And let's face it, it's here. We're not talking about something that's coming. It's here. People are using it every day. I'm using it every day, you're using it every day. But for some reason, we still seem to think that the only thing we can do in policing related to AI, unless, of course, you’re axon or another one of these solution providers, and they need to do what they're doing. But if you're another organization, you might be thinking that that you need to regulate law enforcement use of AI or restrict or prohibit law enforcement use of AI.

Steve Morreale Host

Yeah, and they call that shadow use, right? But I think you have to have a policy. I thank you for talking about this. You have to have a policy, but you have to see what happens. And last thing, look, from an academic standpoint, I can tell you so many faculty members around me, not necessarily in my department, but all over the campus, is saying no, you won't use it. And I'm saying to every one of my students, you damn well will use it. And you'll use it under my guidance. And you will tell me that you're using it. You're not gonna hide. You're gonna say what you did and how you did it, and whether you played a role in it, whether it was iterative and whether or not you edited it. Oh, that changes everything, right?

Jim Burch Guest

It does. Yes, it does. In fact, it we can take that even further. The APA has a suggested citation method for when students or and others are using AI. It includes being really transparent to include what your prompts were used and what the AI's response was as part of your kind of your endnotes. Sure. So that's the transparency that I think you and I are talking about, right? So let me be clear about this. I think it's a mistake to try to prohibit law enforcement from using these emerging technologies. And our conversations about this focus too much on single use cases. Everyone wants to talk about license plate readers, facial recognition, report writing. But let's think about this. As you and I experiment with and use AI every single day in our work now, so too can law enforcement agencies. And they can do it in a way that benefits public service, right? That that is just makes us better.

Steve Morreale Host

So I've talked to a couple of chiefs. I gave them a book, and one of them I said, listen, I use Claude. A couple of weeks later, he calls me back, he goes, Steve, Claude and I are best friends. Another chief said, Steve, remember how you said embrace AI? And he said, I didn't want to, but I embraced the hell out of it now, which I think is very, very interesting. But I think I'll give you another example for our police chief that used it. And I just spoke with one the other day, and he said, Steve, there's this big regional planning organization report, and our town was in it, and it was dense, it was 40 or 50 pages. I put that in AI and I said, tell me what impact this has on my town and what I can use. He said, that read that, gave it to me, expelled everything that I didn't need, and gave me some information that never would have been able to get to. And so it has tremendous value, but we have to teach people how to use it.

Jim Burch Guest

We do. And you know, I think I've been impressed looking at what some of the federal level system has done. I know it's not most don't love the idea of comparing anything at the federal level to what happens at state and local level or what could happen. But DOD has published an adoption strategy for AI. And what I like about what they've done, and they did this a couple of years ago, I believe, what I like about what they've done is they've thought about everything from how are we gonna educate our workforce to be able to use these tools most effectively and appropriately. How are we gonna ensure that the governance and the policy is in place? How are we gonna make sure that we're transparent? how are we gonna work through with our partners on how to leverage these technologies? I think we have to do the same in policing. And so we've been we've been talking to our friends at Microsoft about pulling together law enforcement leaders to, and as well as elected officials who are often a part of the conversations around these tools, , privacy and civil liberties advocates, community members, and others, we think that everybody needs to be a part of this conversation. Let's face the reality, AI is here, and we need to try to make the best use of that and help law enforcement agencies use it as well so that we can have more effective, more efficient public service or public safety.

Steve Morreale Host

Yeah, and if you use it as a tool, as it you use it as an assistant, you use it as a as a thought partner, that it can be very valuable. Again, knowing that you have intellect, you have a brain, you have experience, you have to give it context. I I will say, and I'm saying this for the benefit of others, when you start using it, allow it to interview you. I mean, more often than not, that's exactly what I'm saying. I am a professor or I am running a podcast. 

We're talking to Jim Buurch, and he is the president of the National Policing Institute. And I want to wrap up with a couple of things. Mental health and officer wellness, and I know you're doing an awful lot of work on that. What kind of thoughts do you have on police agencies paying attention to officer wellness, police agencies paying attention to responding to incidents of mental health and being helpers rather than arresters wherever possible?

Jim Burch Guest

I think there's a there's a lot to this. We talk a lot about agencies, at least in as it relates to internal wellness and safety of their officers. We talk a lot about the need to build a culture of safety. In fact, this is one of those places where we look at fire and EMS and say, you know, they have something called safety officers. They do safety briefings, right? They have special training before certain types of events. That's a culture of safety, right? Those are indicators of a culture of safety. Now, I'm not saying fire does everything best, but that's a lesson that I think we can learn and we can build those cultures here. My own experience in the federal system has kind of informed my thinking on this, and you know this very well, I'm sure, Steve, is that in the federal system, you go back through a clearance process or a review process every five years. And if you acknowledge on your forms that you've, you know, had some sort of a wellness issue, right? Let's say depression or anxiety of some kind or something like that, if you're in law enforcement or you have a clearance, you have to wonder if that admission is going to jeopardize your clearance in some way or jeopardize your assignment. And for law enforcement officers, it can be significant. You can find yourself in a situation where you're, you know, you're not able to perform the job because of something that happens as a result of those admissions. And so I've watched that, I've been close to that, I've been a part of that process, and so that has really informed my thinking. But I've also saw this in my own father. My father was a high school athlete, he was all American, he was being recruited into the FBI, recruited into minor league baseball, decided to go into policing. So there's this this this kid in high school who you know was very popular and well adjusted. But after 20 years of policing in a in a fairly tough environment in in Maryland. He retired and he didn't want to leave the house. He was not very happy. He was not very trusting, he was fairly paranoid in some ways. But as he ultimately died of a brain cancer in 2003. And as he was passing, he really began to sort of reflect on who he was and those things, became a little bit of a different person in those months. And it just I I look back on that and I wonder like, was that him or was that the profession that caused him to be that way? And he sort of acknowledged it in his in his last few months and weeks. And so I worry about the impact that that that the job has on officers. I also see the impact that it has on their families. And I think this is something we have to never stop or never. Let go of as a top priority. This has got to be our top priority in policing. 

But it also relates, as you were maybe suggesting, it relates to how we work in the community. And I think that we've got to understand that the best way to respond to mental health crisis calls is not always by law enforcement, right? And so we can't respond to every single thing that happens in the community. And so we've got to come up with better ways. This comes back to what are the resources? And does the community have the resources to be able to respond? Having five officers trained in a in an 800-person department in CIT is not sufficient. No. And so we've got to figure out a way to put our money where our mouth is. If we want to respond better to mental health calls for service, then we ought to be training. We ought to be providing the staffing and the services and the solutions, not just expecting a cop on the beat to make up for what we're not giving them.

Steve Morreale Host

Yeah, and the last thing I would say about that is I also think that we don't in our country fund social services very well. They're not there on the weekends, they're not there at night, and that's why it falls on the lapse of policing. And so  becomes a question of what's important to the community, exactly what you just said. Well, we're running out of time, but Jim, I want to give you the last word. It seems to me that you are hopeful about policing, that we're turning the corner, that there's a whole bunch of innovation going on out there, and that you're playing a role with your with your position at National Policing Institute. What do you say to people to give them hope for the future?

Jim Burch Guest

I think you know, within the profession, I think they need to know that that we're that we support them, we believe in them, we trust them, we respect them, and we have confidence in them to do what they do. I think for the community, I think I and I when I run into people that really don't know anything about policing, a lot of times they're pretty misinformed about the profession. You know, one of the things I try to tell them is that there are some really amazing people in policing who are going so far above and beyond in their jobs, not just to respond to the next call, but to solve problems, to work with people, to help people. They're committed to seeing the profession grow and become more advanced and more effective at what it does. I see people striving towards that, right? We talked about the LEADS scholars. That's one example of it. We talked about our fellows at NPI. But it really is just for us, it's an honor and a privilege to be serving this profession. It's something that I hope to never stop doing. I tell people all the time that I do this job because it's actually something fun and it's a hobby.

Steve Morreale Host

It's meaningful too.

Jim Burch Guest

I'd do it for free if I could. The last time I said that, somebody said, Don't ever say that again. You might actually find yourself doing that for free.

Steve Morreale Host

I understand. Well, we've had the pleasure of talking to Jim Burch Guest, who's down in Florida today, and I'm sitting in Boston. So that's another episode of The CopDoc Podcast. Thanks so much for listening. As I said before, you were listening from 96 countries, 3,000 different cities and towns. I can't believe it. Remember, there's a few books out there if you're interested, and if you have somebody in mind that I should be talking to who is an innovator, who is a thought leader, please reach out to me. You know how to get me. Thanks. Stay safe, keep your people safe. Have a good day.

Outro

Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast with Dr. Steve Moreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune in to The Cop Doc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.

 [JB1]May want to listen to the audio to clean this part up - not sure how it was said that day. 

 [JB2]Apparently I said this, but it should have been "adjunct faculty."

 [JB3]