The CopDoc Podcast, Ep 68, Executive Dean Shane Kilcommins, University of Limerick

Dr. Shane Kilcommins was the Head of the School of Law at the University of Limerick (UL).  Previously a professor at University College Cork, Shane now serves as the Executive Dean of Faculty Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences at UL. 

Dr. Kilcommins was instrumental in the relationship between the University of Limerick and the Garda College.  UL is responsible to accredit training modules for college credit. UL has accredited courses on Serious Crimes Investigations, Criminal Assets, and Human Rights.   

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com 

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:02.650] - Intro

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders, leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:00:31.550] - Steve Morreale

Well, hello again everybody. Steve Morreale coming to you from Boston and you're listening to The CopDoc Podcast. Another episode. We have the pleasure, the honor to talk with Shane Kilcommins. He is Dr. Shane Kilcommins at the University of Limerick. We're talking to him in Limerick today and I want to say good morning to you, Shane.

[00:00:48.950] - Shane Kilcommins

Good morning, Steve. Great to be with you. Thanks. Usually I'm talking to in Ireland, but it's great to be talking to you across the Pond.

[00:00:54.610] - Steve Morreale

That's great. I'm very, very happy to have you. And we go back a few ways. And what's important for the audience to know is that Shane in essence was my sponsor when I went over on a Fulbright at University of Limerick and he was very helpful. He's been promoted or taken a higher job. He was in essence the head or the Dean of the law school. He is now the Dean of faculty. Why don't you talk a little bit about your background and how you ended up in Limerick where you started, Shane.

[00:01:17.930] - Shane Kilcommins

So in Ireland you can do law as an undergraduate degree. I know it's a graduate program in the States. When I finished my law degree, actually it was in the early 90s, 90s in Ireland. Very little real opportunities of jobs at the time pre-Celtic Tiger days. So there wasn't a lot of opportunity and an opportunity came up to do a PhD at the time and I did that and then I went down the route of academia. So I spent four years in the UK, graduated with a PhD in criminal justice and then came back and worked in a law school as an associate professor. And I worked in Cork University College Cork for 13 years. And then in 2014 I actually moved to the University of Lincoln to take up as head of the law school there, the Dean of the law school there and was in that position. And that's when I first met you and all of the innovation that you were involved in. And then in April of last year I took over as executive Dean of the Faculty of Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences.

[00:02:07.700] - Steve Morreale

Big job and great University. Tell us where you went in UK. You say it's so cavalierly. I had the opportunity to take a PhD. That's not an easy thing. But where did you go to school?

[00:02:18.180] - Shane Kilcommins

So in Ireland we have three national universities. We have a number of universities. But there's a thing called the NUI, which is the National University of Ireland and that University College, corrupt University College Dublin, and then NUI, which is in three of the cities. And Wales has the same it has three national universities, and so one of them is Cardiff. But the oldest law school was in a place called the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. And so they offered me a scholarship to go there and do my PhD. And as a young guy living in Ireland to get the opportunity to go to the UK, to actually work there to study for a PhD. It was daunting initially, and I did it on something called community service orders, but it really got me interested in the whole criminal justice area, has to do a lot of reading, really enjoyed the experience. And then you learn your craft, as you know, as an academic, and I've never practiced. So I remained there as an academic, typically in Cork, and then moving, obviously, to a professorship in University of Limerick, all the time working as an academic. So in this sphere of evidence law, criminal law, criminal justice.

[00:03:12.560] - Shane Kilcommins

And obviously, police.

[00:03:12.980] - Steve Morreale

Can we talk a little bit about the relationship that you have helped to foster with the garden and at the Garda College? Because I think many people will be curious to know what you're doing, how you're certifying modules and such and talk about that work.

[00:03:26.680] - Shane Kilcommins

To be thrilled to talk to you about that. And actually, the gardens, you call it this year, the national police force. And there is only one police force in Ireland, an entirely national organization, but they're celebrating 100 years this year since independence. So obviously independence in 1922. And so the state then had its national police force called in garlic on it. But what's really interesting, Steve, actually to go back a little bit further and actually ties in my own research work is that the policing in Ireland goes back to the Dublin Police Act of 1786, and it was one of the first ever attempts in the common law world to have a centralized force. And so that happened to begin with in Dublin. And the reason was there was so much political agitation and unrest that the British decided that to use Ireland as a social laboratory, to introduce a kind of a centralized system. And so it began then in Dublin in 1786. And what you begin to see then is what's really interesting is across the Commonwealth, and I don't know see if you were here, but then that becomes a central repository for a lot of police training around the Commonwealth.

[00:04:39.570] - Shane Kilcommins

So Malaysia, India, they would have all come to Dublin, particularly in the 19th century, where they would have been trained. So the Royal Irish Constabulary, the English police officers, and so on. So in England, the police were called the Peelers. But the only reason a centralized system was introduced there was because the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was for Robert Peele. And he saw this model in operation in Ireland and then slowly, very slowly introduced it in England under the English police officer of 1829 and so on. So it's a slow burner in England, but we have a centralized system very early in Ireland. And actually, you may have been here, but the central training unit was in the Phoenix Park where the headquarters. Yes. Now right. So you've been there. So it's called the depot, but that depot had a global significance in the 19th century because what you have is you have a lot of police being trained there around the Commonwealth. So even to this day, Steve, the headquarters of the police in the Malaysian police is in Phoenix House. But the reason it's called Phoenix is from the Phoenix Park in Dublin.

[00:05:58.530] - Shane Kilcommins

It's tied up with national identity as well. But when we talk about the history of policing, policing in Ireland, centralized policing as we know it is one of the oldest forms of policing in the common law world. Now in Europe, civil law systems, they were centralized much earlier, but in the common law world, Ireland was at the forefront. Now, what we did, Steve, interesting as well is that when we won our independence in 1922, we scrubbed out most of our history. And in some ways, you can say it was an immature response and it was almost a response of independence and autonomy. But in other ways as well, it was copying out that longevity that was there, that centralized police craft that's been here for a long, long time.

[00:06:41.250] - Steve Morreale

That's a very interesting history. That's a very interesting history lesson. I had no idea that Peel was responsible for what was going on in Ireland and that those who from the Commonwealth state were traveling to Ireland for training. That is absolutely amazing. You're right.

[00:06:56.790] - Shane Kilcommins

And Steve, sorry, I should follow up on one other thing for you there. So what's interesting about that as well is that not only did it happen in terms of policing, so if you imagine, like prior to this, the key agent in the criminal justice process, prior to centralized police system was the victim. He or she gathered the evidence, presented evidence in court, decided to charge and so on. And then what she began to get in Ireland in the late 1700. So, no, we're not going to trust victims anymore because they can be got at. They can be manipulators, they may have political views and so on. So we go with a centralized system, and that's what they did. And that then became the model for the rest of the UK. What was also interesting is they did the same thing then with prosecutions. So in 18 one, you had the first centralized prosecution system. I don't know if it's in the common law word, but certainly in the UK and Ireland in 18 one out of Dublin Castle, you've been there too, Steve. I know you have the first, as I said, centralized prosecution system.

[00:08:02.800] - Shane Kilcommins

So what you begin to see in Ireland very early on is you see the state itself beginning to monopolize investigative functions and also then prosecutorial functions. And actually what's really interesting is that it was a much slower burner on what you might call on the British mainland because you didn't have a centralized prosecution system in England until 1878, whereas you had the framework in place out of Dublin Castle in one already in place. So this was a really new phenomenon. And so there's a long history there of policing from an international perspective. So in short, Steve, I've given you the history, but I haven't told you about how I became involved. And again, your listeners and I know you have Irish listeners as well. And a number of colleagues over here have commented on listening to your podcast that they really enjoy them and that's the Irish guys. So I'm sure it's the same in the States. But how I got involved was in 2014, the Deputy Commissioner. She was then the Chief Superintendent. She was then director of police training. She's now the Deputy Commissioner. So she's second in command of the entire force.

[00:09:07.840] - Shane Kilcommins

That's Anne Marie

[00:09:08.670] - Shane Kilcommins

Anne Marie McMahon.

[00:09:09.940] - Shane Kilcommins

Yes. So I know you know her as well. So Anne Marie came to me and said that, well, it was an interesting time in Ireland. So we were post-Celtic Tiger at this stage. The financial system had collapsed. The IMF, the International Monetary Fund were in Ireland. They're really difficult time. And what actually happened was that since 2009, police recruitment had been suspended. So nothing was happening in that sphere whatsoever. So there was no training going on. There was no resources to do anything. But in 2014, as we were turning the corner, the Irish Police, An Garda Siochana got the opportunity to recruit again, start training again. So Deputy Commissioner Anne Marie McMahon came to the University of Limerick and said, look, we're interested in moving forward training now, but we want to do it in a new way. And we would like our programs to be accredited and what we have, Steven, you know this as well. Across Europe, we have this system called the European Credit Transfer System ECTS. And what that means, Steve, is a degree level is at level eight across Europe, a master's level is at level nine, and a PhD is level ten.

[00:10:04.000] - Shane Kilcommins

And you go from there down. So a diploma at undergraduate level will be level seven. So she was saying that we are looking for an ordinary degree level ratification for our training program. Can the University of Limerick help us? So this was fascinating, Steve, because the Garda Siochana obviously have had a centralized training system in place for all its recruits. All of its recruits to the same training center. I don't know. Is it a little bit like cadet school in States? Yeah.

[00:10:28.400] - Steve Morreale

Police Academy. But you're centralized and it's called the College.

[00:10:31.290] - Shane Kilcommins

Yes. Yeah. So that's exactly. So one centralized system. And obviously the States is probably not centralized. It's more of a kind of a federal system, is that right?

[00:10:39.100] - Steve Morreale

No. State by state is done all state by state, state by state.

[00:10:42.180] - Shane Kilcommins

Okay. So that's one big difference is that now it's one National Center for Training. We spoke about it, and it's going to be really interesting from our perspective as well, Steve, because, you know, you're a pracademic, but academics are usually doing the teaching and she didn't want that. She wanted a system whereby we were accrediting doing the quality assurance side of what they were training and their training regime, they were doing the training themselves. So what you really have is your police officers training police officers, which is, in my opinion, is the right way to go, because Shane Kilcommins of Commons can tell you all the rules in Ireland about arrest, but I've never arrested anybody. It's a different craft. So understanding that what you're trying to blend is a professional community of practice, the police with the professional community of scholarship, which is people like me. And what we could do then is and you know this, Steve, we could focus on assessment instruments, learning outcomes, what credit could be given to each module, getting external examiners. And, Steve, you've been one of those as well. So having international academics come in to engage in the quality assurance, to provide that independent oversight.

[00:11:39.450] - Shane Kilcommins

That's how the engagement took place. And what we have to do then is the Irish police have a two year training program, slightly over two years, where you're kind of in and out of the College. You go in for 32 weeks, you're out there in stations, you come back in and it works over a kind of a two year cycle. And they're called assisting, assisted and autonomous phases. So you evolve through your training and you get more powers as you move through it. So we then had to build a scaffold further, which was to say that it should be awarded a degree level. This was what we required in terms of library resources, in terms of opening it up to external examiners, many of which would be professional police, but also police who have an academic background, because it was important from a quality assurance perspective, all the assessment instruments have to be available. There has to be repeat mechanisms and so on. So we then quality assured. It initially ratified at a certain level of training, which is now obviously transferable deep throughout the EU and the European credit transfer System. Then the program commenced and it commenced in September 2014.

[00:12:38.010] - Shane Kilcommins

And I'm pleased to say, Steve, that this has never been done before, as you know, you know, this is a kind of academic leasing model never been done before at this. .5 thousand recruits have gone through, so we've graduated 5000 recruits under this new model. And what's been fascinating as well and see if I hope I'm not dominating the conversation here is that the Garden moved to a new model, which is a problem-based pedagogy and so it's an entirely competency-based framework. So in other words, they almost look at everything they build through their phases. But let's say they're doing station roles and responsibilities. So they're not just a didactic approach where I come in and lecture them for an hour on a particular subject, let's say detention regime. They're working through it in a problem-based scenario, understanding for that kind of deep learning, that deep understanding that comes with that split into small groups and as much as possible, then it's comedy competency based as opposed to learning everything, regurgitate everything you've learned. And so now there are certain sections where you do need to have assessments that focus on content knowledge and so on.

[00:13:37.910] - Shane Kilcommins

But the pedagogy is very much problem based and it's much more streamlined. And there's also a heavy focus. Steve. And I don't know you have seen this, but I'm really impressed by this is the portfolios.

[00:13:47.530] - Steve Morreale

You know, Shane, I was just going to say that, but I want to interrupt by saying we're talking to Shane Kilcommins from the University of Limerick. He is sitting in Limerick, Ireland today. But one of the things that I wanted to say is the power of reflection seems to be very valuable, especially when you're thinking about this portfolio, which I found fascinating. It's an awfully long and arduous process where somebody comes back, writes, applies. So there's a little bit of applied learning and actually sits in front of people too much like we would in academia for consideration of promotion or tenure. In other words, you're saying tell us what you did, tell us what you think, tell us what you learned. Tell us how you would do things different. And you just said that you find that fascinating. But University of Limerick, I think what's important to point out here is that you are now the degree granting institution for the Garda College. Is that correct?

[00:14:35.490] - Shane Kilcommins

That's correct. So the Garda College still has complete autonomy and control over the content knowledge and so on. But we're the ones that we have the passing out parade. Steve, I don't know if you're at one, but they'll still pass out of the Garda College, but their parchment is University of Limerick degree, and obviously that links in them with the European Credit Transfer System. And Steve, I love the point that you made there about portfolios. Even over the weekend, I was we quality assure everything that's going on. And I've retained my connection despite kind of altering my job. And actually, one of the reasons I've retained the connection is it's so fascinating to be involved with people on the ground, working with a professional community of practice and supporting that community is fascinating. And I have as many stakes in ensuring that it succeeds as the Guardian management do themselves. But even over the weekend, Steve, I was actually looking at a portfolio of a student, and this remains anonymous and confidential. But it was interesting watching the portfolio, and I'm sure many of your listeners will understand this. The young recruit, he was a trainee was involved in do you call a DWI driving while intoxicated.

[00:15:36.490] - Steve Morreale

Do you guys drink in Ireland?

[00:15:42.410] - Steve Morreale

I heard there were pubs there. I don't know. Go ahead.

[00:15:46.670] - Shane Kilcommins

So it was just his reflection was really interesting that he almost came upon a scene that he was concerned about, and he didn't have any superior offices with him. And they were 25 minutes away from him at the time. And he spoke about the reflection around that about how to control that situation, how to be a tartar without having the experience and just following the steps and everything that he's been trained about. They have different models. And I mean, look, I'm not the expert in this. He was talking about the decision-making models. They have the steps in the process and so on. It was just really interesting. He talked about not having the conference experience, but also trying to demonstrate that authority to the groups around them and trying to be assertive. I thought it was just a fantastic portfolio showing real maturity and insights and interesting for me to examine it and look at it well.

[00:16:27.990] - Steve Morreale

I find it fascinating. I've actually sat in on some of the work that happens when probationary officer has to sit before a board and to explain themselves and to help them understand what process they went through. What the thought process? And it's quite interesting to me. We use portfolios College, I do in my Capstone, but we don't do them here in the United States. I think there's some value. But I also want to say I want to comment on this, that my experience has been that in many cases that you use the word regurgitated, but in many cases, the European system is very much and correct me if I'm wrong, but more of a passive learning situation here I am. I am the professor. I am the subject matter expert. I am the knowledge person. I am going to pass this on to you, and you're going to maybe apply it and give it back to me. So I understand that you can apply it. But it seems to me that there's a little differential in what goes on at the Garda College, that it's much more active learning as opposed to passive learning. Don't just sit there and listen.

[00:17:25.210] - Steve Morreale

Go ahead.

[00:17:25.580] - Shane Kilcommins

So that's a brilliant observation, Steve, and that's exactly what the problem was. So the guy who underwent a review in 2009, and one of the findings or recommendations was that it is too fast and that recruits were sitting in lecture theaters and they were being lectured to all day long, and then they were being assessed through this regurgitation model at the end, but they weren't experiencing it at all, and they weren't being taught for understanding. So it wasn't the active learning that you talk about. And so one of the upsides to the financial crash, in some ways for An Garda Siochana, was they had five years then to think about how they would reform their training program and put one in place that was more positive, and they completely remodeled it. They went to a problem-based pedagogy, which is entirely premise exactly as you say, on active learning. And this is a huge leap, Steve, for Irish academia, for being taught in Ireland, because for so long, I'm probably doing a disservice to some of the universities who say that that's changing now, but definitely in terms of police training, that model of lecture at the top, giving imparting knowledge, submissive student receiving that knowledge.

[00:18:25.040] - Shane Kilcommins

And they were bold. They took the embedded this problem-based pedagogy and commenced in 2014, divided into three phases, and have really gone for it in terms of the training approach. And I think that what's really been fascinating as well, Steve, is and this was new for An Garda Siochana. So they were having to allow external examiners in, and that included academics like me, included academics like you who had a policing background but were also professors in schools. And they've done that across Europe and the States. So people like you from the States, but they've also had a lot of what I'd say on the continent. So people from Belgium, Portugal, Institute of Policing in Norway, they have Northern Ireland, the PSNI, lots of people in the Wales, and particularly in academics at University of Portsmouth. Now, it's been fascinating to see that kind of engagement and how on gardens you can't and now engage with all of these experts, the type of independent confirmation that they are receiving about their training. It's been really fascinating to watch because although they were skeptical initially, you're always skeptical when you're opening your processes and you're training up to external, you don't know what's going to happen, particularly with academics.

[00:19:30.980] - Shane Kilcommins

You just never know what they're going to do or say. But it's been a very healthy exercise. And to be fair, it has been one where when I look at the external examiner reports, Steve, and you've seen some of them as well, obviously, there's always corrections that need to take place, but the contributions have been overwhelmingly the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.

[00:19:47.250] - Steve Morreale

Well, I find it quite fascinating and glad to be part of that, and it certainly opens my eyes. One of the things that I wonder is, first of all, the lack of reluctance on the Garda to allow that is quite amazing. But one of the questions that is percolating in my mind is let me give you an example. So you started a human rights module. They started a human rights module. And I want to talk a little bit about that. In other words, where do you go beyond some of the training that goes on after the Academy and talked about use of force you've been involved in? CAB, Proceeds of Crime. You have begun serious crime investigations, which I was involved in in the process where you're sitting down with the Garda, are you guiding some of the curriculum decisions in some way?

[00:20:30.540] - Shane Kilcommins

Absolutely. The first thing to say to you is it's a leap of faith on both sides, and it has to be to be done properly. So when you have a community of practice and you know this as a police officer, there's a community there as well around them. Sometimes it's an us versus them mentality. And there are positive aspects to that, and there's also negative aspects. I would say that's part of the culture. And so you're then a community of scholarship where there is no freedom of expression, autonomy, the ability to critique say what I want as an academic that exists there. Okay. So there's a leap of faith on both sides to engage properly in, I would say the national interest and to ensure that the training can be the best it can possibly be. And when I was saying that about a garage Chicago, that you were fascinated that they were a little bit concerned about this when you haven't worked with academics before and when you haven't really, let's say, for example, and I don't know how it is in the States, but for the most part, my engagement in Garish Chia comment before that might be saying something about, let's say, critiquing the powers of detention or critiquing the right to silence or critiquing a miscarriage of justice.

[00:21:30.750] - Shane Kilcommins

So one thing I was saying may be negative about a garden chocolate, if you know what I mean from an academic, that's still important to me because in terms of my own integrity, that I'll still do that as the need arises. But they then have to trust me that I was willing to work with them. And the team of scholars are willing to work with them to build the best program possible in terms of the quality of their training. So they had to trust as well, and they had to then trust the process of opening up the external examiners who they didn't know. They wouldn't have been able to select any of them. And so it was me, Steve, who came to you. It wasn't a garbage Yukon initially. And then they have to then close everything they have in terms of their training to you, and you might decide, I think this is terrible, and I'm going to talk about it. They can then see the benefit once it's opened up. But until that happened, and I believe if it was taken, that wasn't possible. So what actually happens then is and it's just been fascinating, is as we start to work together and they could see that, you know, Steve, anytime you're doing something new and this has never been done before in the history of the state in terms of policing, that you would have an academic institution working with that centralized policing training system.

[00:22:31.990] - Shane Kilcommins

You're always going to encounter problems, Steve. But what they could see then was that we were working with them to generate solutions. So it wasn't us. We were in it with them. You weren't always slapping right.

[00:22:41.440] - Steve Morreale

You were trying to help them through it.

[00:22:44.080] - Shane Kilcommins

Trying to help that's exactly. Trying to get the solution. And there was a really good team here at the University of Limerick, and not only at the end of law school, but across the University in terms of regulations and so on, that we're looking sometimes for bespoke solutions because it requires that. So then, you know, then with a relationship like that, it can start to develop organically. And what we began to see out of that and you saw this and they came back and said, we also have a serious crime investigation program. It's a brilliant program, Steve. You know, this the Garda Siochana could see themselves and that the content of the program was really strong. So we came back with that and they said we thought this could be a continuation at a specialized level and this could be at postgraduate level. And that's what it is. It becomes a postgraduate diploma. And again, all we do, Steve, is we're accrediting their training and it's done to a very high level. People have to be an Inspector level up and above. That might not be much to some of you guys in the States, but obviously you need to be a senior police officer to actually get on to the program and you have to be involved in a serious crime investigation.

[00:23:38.060] - Shane Kilcommins

So obviously you guys will all understand that.

[00:23:39.810] - Steve Morreale

Let me say what I do find that fascinating again, because what it meant when I walked into it was you're not going to that program until you've done that work. Right. Because you can't apply it if you've never done it. So that's where I think it became very rich. What did you do? How did you do it? How would you improve it? And these are the questions that are being pushed through the program to get innovation and to get critical thinking and higher order thinking that is so important for higher ranking officers.

[00:24:08.690] - Shane Kilcommins

Brilliant, Steve. It touches upon the point that you made earlier, and it's also to get reflection. And so what really the serious crime investigation program is that you have the senior people around and they're probing and they're cross examining and they're challenging their serious crime investigators. You are at this level and you are running this serious crime investigation case. And they're just testing it's almost like a heuristic device. Testing and probing, challenging. But even as part of this team, we talked about reflective journals. Reflective journals are a big part. PDP - professional development portfolios are a huge part of that serious crime investigation training program because people need to be serious crime investigators need to reflect upon and also demonstrating their weaknesses. If you're leading a team, how do you manage the dynamics? And there are different aspects to that. The forensics team, the crime scene investigation team, your unit, yourself, that you're managing all sorts of possibilities and probabilities, you're under pressure from the media, whatever goes on. So it's kind of feeding that in. And we all have weaknesses. I'm speaking as if I'm a police officer. I'm not. But that is also needs to be people need to tease out their weaknesses as well and to see how they can actually improve.

[00:25:12.690] - Shane Kilcommins

So the reflective journaling is really important in it. And then, Steve, just to show you the synergies that can be generated, what happened in addition then was we were only accrediting and it's 60 credits at postgraduate level, so it's kind of a postgraduate diploma and then anybody who wants to can come in then to University of Limerick for the final 30 credits to get a master's. So to get a postgraduate Masters. So we call it Mastiff Masters of Art. So we have an master's investigation and they have their 60 credits done. They needed 30 credits more, so then they come in for the academic dissertation. And what's fascinating about that, Steve, is that it's also really interesting because the standard of the police officers, what they're coming, every one of them. I can say this, I can tell you a joke in a moment about it, but every one of them is at such a standard and they're already original. So, you know, with master's problems, you're often looking for students to be original. And it's very hard to be original if you're, unless you're say you're coming directly from undergraduate level, because all you're dealing with is content and books, whereas the police officers, serious crime investigators, they have experience, they know what the problems are.

[00:26:13.990] - Shane Kilcommins

So they're talking about crime scene, how to make crime scenes better, how to reform the law on this firearms, how to manage those. I have seen some incredible dissertation and actually it become a joke, Steve, because what actually happened is in the University of Limerick, if you've got too many people on first class honors, you're reported it's flagged that there's a problem. But equally, and if you have too many that are failing, that's flagged as well, and you have to go to the vice President and explain yourself. Well, I read up before that program every year, because there are too many good ones. There's too many good ones. That's exactly. And actually it's become a running joke. And it's just that this standard is outrageously good, but it's because these people are coming from a field of experience, they have a wealth of experience. What the postgraduate diploma is making them reflect, developing a critically reflective attitude around their own investigations. And they have them that workplace learning that they're applying, they're doing it the right way around. They're applying work based learning and looking for academic content that will support their intuition and propositions.

[00:27:11.830] - Shane Kilcommins

Well, let's go back to sort of the master's programs that you're familiar with and you're teaching them. And I think you have a different student might be 21, 22, 23 with not a lot of life experience. Not that they aren't smart, none of that, but it is such a different dynamic when you're in the room with people who have experience and they can apply that almost instantly and even critique the mistakes of the current practice and seek it's almost like going to business school. All right, here's the situation. Here's the case study. What do we do? What's wrong with this? Well, they live it right? It's lived experience.

[00:27:49.180] - Shane Kilcommins

It's lived experience, Steve, and you're learning all the time. And also then what they can do from an academic perspective is they can compare and contrast. So I'll give you a simple example. I supervised one of the dissertations, and I was not interviewing techniques. This will be very real for all of your listings. So, you know, in the States, is it the read model that's used or the piece model?

[00:28:07.950] - Steve Morreale

It's both. But Reid is common - REID.

[00:28:10.720] - Shane Kilcommins

Okay. And the piece model, I think, is the UK version. And the Garda Siochana have almost a hybrid version. It's called GSIM. It's the garbage you can interview kind of model. But it was really interesting to see the comparative analysis around that and from an experienced serious crime investigator and what would work best in Ireland. So it's just really interesting. And actually what I've learned myself because some instances I would have thought that I'm responding to a stereotype here, but I would have thought that very often that these serious crime investigators, they would be looking for a dilution in our safeguards, the criminal process safeguards. But I have never found that to be the case. It's actually always the opposite, that in some instances they're looking for more safeguards. But in other instances, they're also trying to prevent miscarriages adjust and almost actively seeking that out and looking for the comparative literature that supports their points. It's been an eye opening for me as well as an academic. There's always an energy around this to be involved in something. It's a national project. And also it's lovely to work with people on the ground who are actually committed to their work.

[00:29:07.530] - Shane Kilcommins

And I find all the time that when you're working with the garbage, they want the best training possible. But I also find that they keep coming to me now with new ideas and new proposals. So a really good example of that, Steve, is that's how we got off and running? Exactly as I documented to you, the training program, the basic training program. And then we went into the Masters in serious crime investigation. And then what actually came up was the Criminal Justice Bureau came to me. And they obviously have a multidisciplinary team, Steve, you know, that they're working across criminal and civil jurisdiction. They're working with the GDP, the prosecutor's office, but they're also working on the civil side around seizing assets, revenue, right. Revenue and all revenue and social welfare, which is what's really interesting even recently, Steve, they have a training program as well now, Masters level, and that also feeds into the serious crime investigation. Masters, they're just starting that as we speak, that they are coming into that program. But what's really interesting is then that they have a lot of international people now starting to look to come out of the program.

[00:30:04.040] - Shane Kilcommins

So even this, about a month ago, I was talking to a police officers from Iceland. Cab have a good, strong profile and they have an interesting way of actually doing things. And they've admitted to a kind of fine art about how they work and the relationships they've built up. I know it's certainly across Europe, so fantastic standard of training now at postgraduate level. So it's actually lovely to work with them as an agency, to see their professionalism, see what they're trying to do and to generate solutions again around how we build the portfolios, explaining it to the trainees. They all have to evolve in live investigations as well. But one thing that's come up, Steve, that has been, I suppose, very original is have you got that phrase in the state's micro credentials? Have you heard of that phrase?

[00:30:42.370] - Steve Morreale

Yes.

[00:30:43.060] - Shane Kilcommins

Okay. So again, the human rights section in Garda. They're based in Dublin and they're based in the depot. We spoke about that. They approach me. Have you ever come across Chief Superintendent Alan McGovern? Alan McGovern. Fantastic. So, Steve, you know these people better than I do. But Alan came to me and he said, is it possible that we could have a training on one module, human rights and policing. And he said, again, An Garda Siochana are very much taken out the idea of either co curriculum or kind of co engagement. And what they wanted to do, as they said, look, could we have a module, a level eight, which is degree level module on human rights and policing. And they wanted a series of topics covered. So start off week one. Why are rights importance? What do we mean by European Convention of Human Rights? How does it fit into the Irish legal system and how does it fit in globally? And then we move on to looking at defense equality, defense surveillance, week by week, different topics, Privacy rights. We do the exclusionary rule, Steve. We've come across the exclusionary rule in the States.

[00:31:44.800] - Shane Kilcommins

Yes, of course.

[00:31:46.530] - Steve Morreale

So, we do the exclusionary rule as well. So we do it on a week by week basis. It's online. And what we did initially was for one semester, we registered 550 of the most senior police officers in the country. So starting an assistant Commissioner level and down. So they all took this online program and each week was engagements with activities, discussion boards. Those 2 hours recorded lectures but what was fascinating, Steve, is you got the academic content. So Shane to Commons comes in and talks to them about utilitarianism and can't and deontological rights and the importance of rights. And sometimes they exist against the majority and so on, and prevent States from moving as far or as fast as they want. So you get that. But then you also have the Commissioner, Drew Harris, also speaking to them about the importance of rights. And that's week one, and then they have an activity that they all engage in. And then week two, same thing. So let's say it's equality. You have an academic coming in talking about the equality provisions under the European Convention of Human Rights, but then you have serious Assistant Commissioner Level, a chief Superintendent Level, who also come in from the garden shop size.

[00:32:42.290] - Shane Kilcommins

So not only are you getting the academic focus on what equality means, you're also then having it applied and linked directly to embarrassing that went on week by week right through for the twelve weeks.

[00:32:53.160] - Steve Morreale

I'm going to say this, I think by doing that and that relationship between the two, what you're doing is you're inspiring change, but you're also having Champions in the organization saying, this is our expectations.

[00:33:05.620] - Shane Kilcommins

So, Steve, that's fascinating that you should say that. Actually, you should be on this side of the desk. I should be interviewing you, because that's what they want. That's exactly what they want. They want the Champions. But what's really interesting, so in an organization that has 15,000 staff, they now have over the last 18 months, they have now have 2000 of the most senior staff who are now trained in it. And not only are they Champions, but they're actually continuing to roll it out because it wasn't expensive to run like we weren't charging a huge amount. It's fantastic for us as well. Which of 2000, but 15,000 have already been trained at that level, at level eight. And it wasn't, Steve. It also ties in. So you know this, you're busy, as all of your listeners will be as well. They were dealing with it online, but there was an assessment aspect to it which was externally examined. There was a continuous assessment on a particular case. It was an interesting case, Steve. It was the Gaffigan case in Germany, which had to do with a police officer who threatened. I'll tell you very quickly, just because your listeners may be interested.

[00:33:59.260] - Shane Kilcommins

So it involved a case in Frankfurt where wealthy family's son was kidnapped by a law student, and the police in Frankfurt thought the child was still alive, but Scaffold had murdered the child. But whilst they thought that the child was still alive, he was threatened by the deputy Commissioner of policing in Frankfurt that he would be tortured. And so he confessed subsequently, and lots of evidence was found as a result. But the case is just interesting from a human rights perspective. It went all the way up to the European Court, conventional court of Human Rights, and it's just an interesting debate for police officers and what I've been told. So we set that activity for them just as simple. It was just giving them the facts. What do you think should happen in this scenario? And then what we do afterwards with them as we explain what happened in the case? What starts to happen as a result of that simple activity is guys started to discuss it in police stations when they're out on the beach, on the car. It was a spread. And then all they had to do each week was and we had cases like that every week.

[00:34:49.580] - Shane Kilcommins

So all they had to do then was give 200 words back what their opinion was. And then at the end we had an MCQ, Steve, over the twelve weeks they had a continuous assessment on gas and they had a discussion board every week and then they had an MCQ at the end. And just to ensure that the learning was taking place, it's been fascinating to be involved in it and to see now that it's rolling out again next year. So by next Christmas, we'll have 2500 people trained in it. And as you say, it's championing. It's just starting conversations, it's best practice.

[00:35:15.550] - Shane Kilcommins

It can't, but have a positive impact.

[00:35:17.460] - Steve Morreale

Part of what you're doing, Ironically. So through an educational experience, you're impacting change, which is quite phenomenal unto itself. So social change.

[00:35:25.940] - Shane Kilcommins

And Steve, you know the way normally sometimes with police training is come to a hotel or come to a venue and we'll do this for you in, say, two days or so on. Now, not only are they getting an educational experience online, they can do it from their own homes, they don't have to tune in at any particular time during the week. They can do it at their own leisure, asynchronous but also they're getting a level eight module certification, so there's a tangible outcome for them as well at that level of ECTS European credit transfer.

[00:35:56.280] - Steve Morreale

That's interesting to me. They're starting to send me some things from the University of Lennox on that program. So I'm interested in I'm not saying we don't pay attention to human rights, but you know, in the United States, it's about constitutional rights, less about human rights. It's so important in Europe, but it is starting to move in that direction. I always say there's so much we can learn. You are learning from us. When I was over there, you're learning from us and we're learning from you and we can't shut things down. I wrote down a while back when you were talking about identifying weaknesses in the portfolio. Many police officers don't want to do that. They don't want to show their weaknesses, but I think it's so important. And you interview a lot of people. I interview a lot of people for jobs and I'll say, what's your weakness still stutter and they're not sure, and they've never thought about what their weaknesses. And my answer will normally be, I'll tell you what your weakness is. You don't know your weakness.

[00:36:39.580] - Shane Kilcommins

Absolutely. And actually, you would be concerned about somebody who doesn't know their weakness. And I was uncomfortable when I asked about them to be able to identify them and speak about them and speak about them. Steve, I remember when I was young and immature, I was going to say, but now that I'm older, since you tell me your weaknesses and you say you pick something that will actually you can neutralize quickly or something that I overwork, something ridiculous. And, of course, you think that's that as a positive. But actually when you see a portfolio where people are genuinely reflecting on their weaknesses, it's about development. And when you do that, you as an individual are developing. Everybody is weak, and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous. So it's only when you start to identify them properly and engage with them in a healthy way that you're going to improve. And that's really good for an organization that's really good for the individual as well. So, Steve, the other thing that really struck me was I've been engaged in academia for 25 years. I have never, ever seen such positive feedback. So in this online program, this human rights and policing, and it could easily be called I know in the States it could be called constitutional law and Policing or constitutional rights and policing, because all of the topics were the same surveillance, Privacy, exclusionary, rule, equality, same issues that can all be addressed.

[00:37:43.660] - Shane Kilcommins

But the feedback, Steve, I have never seen such a that people were so responsive in the feedback. Almost everybody get feedback and that it was so overwhelmingly positive and they were giving it to the University. So it wasn't like that. It was in any way going back, say, to their bosses in the workplace and so on. It was overwhelmingly positive. They loved the learning experience, the fact that it was online. They loved the activities, they loved the discussions that were taking place, and that they were sharing with their colleagues and work creating another learning community by doing that. Yes.

[00:38:10.000] - Steve Morreale

And it's an opportunity for people to vent in one way, but to also wrestle with issues which I think are really important. But I also want to say, before we let you go, we're talking to Shane Kilcommins. He's sitting in Limerick, Ireland. He is the Executive Dean at the University of Limerick. When you are integrating faculty academics in the program, I don't mean to touch the third rail, but doesn't it have to be the right faculty member?

[00:38:35.110] - Shane Kilcommins

So, Steve, what you want is actually you need academics who are obviously to understand what the outcome begin with the end of mind. So the end in mind with an garlic Chicano was they want a top level training program. Okay. That's the first. So you have to be very careful. You have to manage expectations around this. This is what we're doing for them. The content is their own and we're helping them with the quality assurance process. You also have to allow academics then to have their independence because they're obviously very mindful and protective of that. But it has to be within that scaffolding framework that they understand what the outcome, what we're actually doing for the betterment of the training in Templemore. Temple Moore is there where the guarded colleges.

[00:39:11.310] - Steve Morreale

So the last thing I will say, so we can wind down what are the changes that you see are taking place in the garden given the report on the future of policing in Ireland?

[00:39:22.240] - Shane Kilcommins

So one of the key recommendations from that report, Steve, that I can talk to you about was that they wanted more University engagement with An Garda Siochana. And so I'm only giving you how we've engaged with a garage. You can't. But I know, for example, that UCD University College Dublin engaged with a garlic Chicano around Cybersecurity University of Manu engages with them around the equality, diversity and inclusion. So it's not like we have a monopoly working with the gardens Chicano. We do a huge amount and I think we do as you talk about the debt baseline training program and flagship postgraduate program. But there are so many different academic institutions who also engage with them. And I think not only that, that they are now engaging with many academic institutions across Europe, facing institutions across Europe, and they're very well networked there. But they also have the state, Steve, it's working with people like you. And I'm sure you saw the positive nature of the reception that you got from them as well. You were up in Trim County meet with them as well, aren't you, with the conference, training day and so on. So they're willing to learn.

[00:40:20.570] - Shane Kilcommins

They're willing to engage. They're willing to, I suppose, have that external influence and have a shape and sport what they're doing.

[00:40:26.700] - Steve Morreale

They're a proud organization for sure. And I'm very glad that you helped me with the relationship that I've created with the garden. I appreciate it. And I'm going to see you in April, and I can't wait for that. So we're talking to Shane Kilometers. We've been talking about the relationship of the University of Limerick with Garda and the guard of College. And I think it has been fascinating from this side. We don't have a College. We have little individual fiefdoms and every standard is different. And so I do appreciate that. So I want to thank you. You have the last word. How important is policing to society, Shane, in your view,

[00:40:58.260] - Shane Kilcommins

Oh, Steve, it's huge. We talk about human rights earlier, and human rights are about the integrity of each individual and each person mattering and each person counting. Equal concern and respect for all. Now that equal concern and respect for all requires a police force. It requires at least functioning effectively in society to protect and to serve, which they do. And it also requires that in circumstances where the individual has been apprehended and caught that they are also still entitled to fairness and procedures because their dignity matters as well and their individual rights still matter. So at the start of the show, Steve, we talked about the history of policing in Ireland going all the way back to the Dublin Police Act 1786. And policing is an essential good in society that's as basic as that it's an essential good in society and it's necessary in any functioning democracy to have an efficient, human rights centered police organization. Not that you only know when you don't have it when you experience that because otherwise we're living in a caste-based society.

[00:41:52.660] - Steve Morreale

Yeah. And that's the difficulty that there are a few that will sort of taint the respect and the expectations of policing, but we have to act quickly to stop that so that we can retain the trust of the community. I appreciate it. So I know you have another meeting to go to. We've been talking to Shane Kilcommins, thank you very much for listening. We are growing I will tell you, we are in the top 50 in Canada, New Zealand and Ireland and our characteristics. So thank you very much for listening and stay tuned for another episode of The CopDoc Podcast.

[00:42:24.670] - Outro

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.